View Full Version : Just another day in the USA.
Ultralight
11-6-17, 8:23am
Thoughts on Sunday's "daily shooting?"
I heard about it on the radio. It made me very sad momentarily. But I have noticed that I am becoming desensitized to this type of thing in the news. It just happens so seemingly often. So I hear about it, feel incredibly sad for a moment, and then I am just back to normal.
Williamsmith
11-6-17, 8:53am
Thoughts on Sunday's "daily shooting?"
I heard about it on the radio. It made me very sad momentarily. But I have noticed that I am becoming desensitized to this type of thing in the news. It just happens so seemingly often. So I hear about it, feel incredibly sad for a moment, and then I am just back to normal.
Well, the city of Chicago has had 569 murders and over 3100 shootings just this year. That ought to help you stay sad for a few more moments before you get back to normal.
Ultralight
11-6-17, 8:54am
Well, the city of Chicago has had 569 murders and over 3100 shootings just this year. That ought to help you stay sad for a few more moments before you get back to normal.
Chicago is a mess. The place is a frickin' war zone.
They were already in a church so they were probably already praying. Not much else to be done here.
So, razz and you others up there in Canada. How are you hiding all your mass shootings? You must be having them. We share a continent and history. You're not that different from us. Only a border and a different leader separate us. So I know you all are out there killing each other like we are and just not telling us. Come on--come clean!
So, razz and you others up there in Canada. How are you hiding all your mass shootings? You must be having them. We share a continent and history.
I think the difference is, we don't share a culture. I suspect our Canadian neighbors are not burdened with the culture of victimization which runs rampant with approximately 50% of our population. Add in the complimentary culture of violence which we've come to expect, and excuse, from those "victims" of oppression, racism, misogyny, sexism, etc., and the far ranging, yet predictable results occur.
I think the difference is, we don't share a culture. I suspect our Canadian neighbors are not burdened with the culture of victimization which runs rampant with approximately 50% of our population. Add in the complimentary culture of violence which we've come to expect, and excuse, from those "victims" of oppression, racism, misogyny, sexism, etc., and the far ranging, yet predictable results occur.
Really? On what do you base the fact that 50% of our population feel victimized? And on what basis do you attribute that to the mass shootings?
But, to be honest, I'm going to backtrack a little bit because after I posted that, I did a little math and actually, the numbers of people killed in Canada and the US is more proportional than I expected.
The Washington Post cited 975 people killed in mass shootings in the US (https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/national/mass-shootings-in-america/) since 1966.
I looked at Wikipedia to find the # of people killed in mass murders in Canada in the same time frame, and it wound up being 160. Our population is not quite 10 times Canada's, but close. So it turns out not THAT far off per capita. But, the Canadian numbers include not just gun violence but also murders by arson, explosives, cannibalism and a crossbow.
goldensmom
11-6-17, 10:57am
They were already in a church so they were probably already praying. Not much else to be done here.
I kind of agree. In no way do I take what happened in Sutherland Springs lightly and do not mean to dismiss such a tragic event. I am a Bible believing Christian. I go to church to worship and pray with fellow believers. I do not wish to die yet especially in such a tragic manner but if it happened to me, what better place to be to enter eternity. Death is not the end regardless of the manner in which it occurs. Again, I do not take this lightly, the victims are brothers and sisters in Christ but this is not their end, the have entered the glory of the God they worshiped.
‘Just another day in the USA', sadly so. We as a nation have become so desensitized to violence that we immediately focus on the peripherals and not the root of the problem which is rampant evil.
Something I always wonder about is that somebody, somewhere knows that these individuals who do these horrendous things are not right in the head. I am concerned about a neighbor kid who is obsessed with weapons and guns. He is always shooting things in his backyard or alley with air guns, BB guns etc and I bet has access to much more dangerous weapons. He sometimes dresses up in combat gear. What does one do if you get a sense that he will be trouble? And then multiply him by thousands - angry men who blame others for their misery. This will only continue. I also wonder who raised these idiots to be without compassion or trust.
catherine
11-6-17, 11:10am
‘Just another day in the USA', sadly so. We as a nation have become so desensitized to violence that we immediately focus on the peripherals and not the root of the problem which is rampant evil.
Yes, we are desensitized. We have had three MAJOR mass killings in just a little over one month. That is not normal. But goldensmom, you are right. UL started the thread, and we are not even expressing mild horror.
ApatheticNoMore
11-6-17, 11:11am
The death toll of them does seem to be increasing. An ex-military guy, that's almost a profile at this point, half the mass shootings seem to be ex-military, well maybe it's not, but it seems way disproportionately represented (and really the profile would be ex-military white guys).
ToomuchStuff
11-6-17, 11:14am
Have they found a note or explanation why? I don't know if the preacher molested him, he decided that since they all want to get to heaven to help them along, or what was the thinking behind the shooting.
Of course the tool he used will be blamed, rather then himself, or the thing that has caused so much chaos over the years that they were performing.
Where was the homeowner and why didn't they intervene?
pinkytoe, would it be appropriate to bring all the shooting by the neighbor boy to the attention of the police? Is this a noise violation where you live? Sounds like he is disturbing the peace, and that might put him on their radar, and radar of social services?
I looked at Wikipedia to find the # of people killed in mass murders in Canada in the same time frame, and it wound up being 160. Our population is not quite 10 times Canada's, but close. So it turns out not THAT far off per capita. But, the Canadian numbers include not just gun violence but also murders by arson, explosives, cannibalism and a crossbow.
I don't want to know how you commit mass murder by cannibalism.
I have to disagree with Alan on this one. It is not victimization as much as individualism. Yes, we have our problems but the self-righteous sense of individualism that I see in the US media is killing you.
I always struggle with the obvious generosity of the US citizenry vs self-importance of the individual. Yes, I have read the US Constitution. I truly believe that the US Founding Fathers had a collective sense of protecting the individual rather than the individual dominating their society at all costs that is the norm today.
Have often wanted to have this conversation to see where it went so glad it has arisen. Off to buy my plumbing snake.
I don't know who all these self-professed "victims" are, but I guess judging by spree shooters, they're mostly white males. I'm glad I don't know any.
frugal-one
11-6-17, 3:14pm
So, razz and you others up there in Canada. How are you hiding all your mass shootings? You must be having them. We share a continent and history. You're not that different from us. Only a border and a different leader separate us. So I know you all are out there killing each other like we are and just not telling us. Come on--come clean!
Too lazy to check (or don't really care)... but wonder how their gun laws differ from the US?
I have to disagree with Alan on this one. It is not victimization as much as individualism. Yes, we have our problems but the self-righteous sense of individualism that I see in the US media is killing you.
I always struggle with the obvious generosity of the US citizenry vs self-importance of the individual. Yes, I have read the US Constitution. I truly believe that the US Founding Fathers had a collective sense of protecting the individual rather than the individual dominating their society at all costs that is the norm today.
Have often wanted to have this conversation to see where it went so glad it has arisen. Off to buy my plumbing snake.
In this case, a self-righteous individual came running out of his house to exchange fire with the shooter. When the shooter fled, the self-righteous individual flagged down a passing truck driven by a self-important individual who instantly agreed to give chase, which they did until the shooter crashed. Nobody involved seems to have asked for permission before acting. God bless the United States of America, especially Texans.
I disagree with you on the Founders' intent. It wasn't "The government shall protect...". It was "Congress shall make no law...". The wording seems pretty clear that the Constitution, especially the Bill of Rights, is aimed more at limiting government's power to a strictly enumerated list and preventing government from imposing its will on the individual in various important areas rather than any "collective sense of protecting the individual". It's much more a hands-off document than a hands-on document.
I don't know who all these self-professed "victims" are, but I guess judging by spree shooters, they're mostly white males. I'm glad I don't know any.
White males suck! Well, maybe not if they're Canadian. ;)
But, thanks for highlighting another element of the toxic American culture I mentioned earlier. The proud display of hate and disdain by race and gender is a gateway to violence and destruction.
Williamsmith
11-6-17, 3:34pm
I have to disagree with Alan on this one. It is not victimization as much as individualism. Yes, we have our problems but the self-righteous sense of individualism that I see in the US media is killing you.
I always struggle with the obvious generosity of the US citizenry vs self-importance of the individual. Yes, I have read the US Constitution. I truly believe that the US Founding Fathers had a collective sense of protecting the individual rather than the individual dominating their society at all costs that is the norm today.
Have often wanted to have this conversation to see where it went so glad it has arisen. Off to buy my plumbing snake.
Razz, my notion of your reference is the balance between individual rights and the common public good. My expertise in this is admittedly only self taught and sparse. There are so many so called Constitutional Scholars that it makes my head swim but I have settled on a simple explanation that I attribute to my heritage.
It seems that somebody in my family went to the trouble of proving that , in my case, my great grandmothers great great great grandfather....I think I got enough greats in there.......one day while working the farm in what was once The Commonwealth of Virginia and now is the hills of Western Pennsylvania, threw down his pitchfork and declared to his wife, “Clory, I’m tired of being pushed around by these here redcoats! I’m going down to the tavern and signing up for George’s Revolutionary Army. I’ll be back in no time.” To which Clory replied, “Whatever, Philip. Just make sure you feed those chickens before you leave.” Or something like that.
And off he went. They gave him a rifle of some sort and marched him until his feet bled. Then they lined him up next to a bunch of other likeminded fellers at the Battle of Brandywine and Judge Chew Mansion where he swore he’d kill him a bunch of Englishmen. Trouble was at least one of them was a better shot than him and he lost an eye to a musketball. After which he spent one miserable winter in Valley Forge before coming back to the farm looking like a beagle that went on a three day run and finally got hungry.
Im getting to my point. You see, the framers had this notion that they didn’t want a pure democracy like the Greeks. Sure, it was a dandy way to get things accomplished......majority rules. But what about poor farmers like Philip? Didn’t they matter? Was the common good the only responsibility government had? Guys like Jefferson thought that the minority mattered and in Revolutionary America....it was the poor ignorant farmer who was the minority and powerless. So they set up a representative government that was supposed to secure the rights of the individual. They didn’t even think they needed a Bill of Rights since they had been so clear about limiting powers of government but they relented in order to secure ratification.
And so Philips kids, and their kids, and all the kids leading on down to this kid.....kinda feels like this government is here to protect individual natural rights and that what then follows is for the common good. Not the other way around.
It is starting to sound as though this shooting had nothing to do with any of these causes mentioned here and to go back to domestic violence and inter-family anger and violence.
So maybe we need, as a culture, to do more to promote family therapy.
White males suck! Well, maybe not if they're Canadian. ;)
But, thanks for highlighting another element of the toxic American culture I mentioned earlier. The proud display of hate and disdain by race and gender is a gateway to violence and destruction.
Huh? i guess I should have made myself clearer. I'm glad I don't know any potential spree killers.
If I had to hazard a guess, though, it would be that many of them voted for Trump--being embittered, put-upon white guys, and all. :devil:
I think 45 might be about half right when he says it's a mental health problem. However, I can think of no practical solution that would filter through all the people that are a half bubble off to identify possible shooters and give them the help they require. I would lean more towards it being a cultural issue.
Sounds to me like an generalized anger issue--is that considered an illness now? He apparently terrorized his family; bet they're happy to be rid of him.
Sounds to me like an generalized anger issue--is that considered an illness now? He apparently terrorized his family; bet they're happy to be rid of him.
There are workshops and help for anger management so I'd assume it's a mental health issue. It just seems like there are a lot of angry people these days and I'd tend to think some of it is a manifestation of deeper cultural issues.
I'm pretty much out of answers. It is interesting that 45 has devoted so much effort to foreign terrorists, when most of them are domestic. To just say it's a mental health issue is about like saying, well there's not much we can do about it. Maybe that's right and maybe it's not, but it does seem like it's worth trying some things.
Ultralight
11-6-17, 6:10pm
I don't know who all these self-professed "victims" are, but I guess judging by spree shooters, they're mostly white males. I'm glad I don't know any.
What?!
Ultralight
11-6-17, 6:13pm
White males suck!
Correction: Straight white males suck!
Alan:
I know a lot of leftists -- I mean a lot. And the vat majority of them judge straight white men by the color of their skin and not by the content of their character.
It is very acceptable to lump all straight white together in shorthand when criticizing the actions and policies of particular white men.
The leftists that I know who do this are almost all married to or dating white men.
Correction: Straight white males suck!
The leftists that I know who do this are almost all married to or dating white men.
I'm a leftist married to a Trump-voting Republican. He's funny.. he hates going to Republican events in town because "they're all fat white guys like me!" At least he's honest. That's what I love about him.
The Vegas shooter was known for being verbally abusive to his girlfriend. The Texas shooter was kicked out of the military for being abusive to his wife and child.
If you have a restraining order in place you're not permitted to have weapons (at least in my state). Maybe this prohibition needs to be expanded to include all abusers, even those where the victim does not file a restraining order. The military must have had ample grounds for the discharge.
It would also be good to have an anonymous tip line to report people who seem potentially dangerous and try to get them help like the neighbor kid mentioned above. Though it wouldn't work in every case. Reme!ber the frustrated virgin who passed a safety and wellness check then shot up a California campus? But still if you see something say something should go beyond foreign terrorists. The mother-in-law of the Texas shooter could potentially have saved lives if she spoke up after getting the threatening text.
So maybe we need, as a culture, to do more to promote family therapy.
I think this is huge. I was reading a local teacher's lament about her daily job which is much more than teaching. She told of her elementary age students many of whom are neglected and witness to daily acts of family violence. These children have no mentors, guides or positive role models to help them see a future beyond their awful situations. They grow up angry and mis-directed. Something is very wrong with our culture now.
Correction: Straight white males suck!
Alan:
I know a lot of leftists -- I mean a lot. And the vat majority of them judge straight white men by the color of their skin and not by the content of their character.
It is very acceptable to lump all straight white together in shorthand when criticizing the actions and policies of particular white men.
The leftists that I know who do this are almost all married to or dating white men.
I'm of two minds on this, on the one hand it's a terrible blight on our society for liberals to be so illiberal, but on the other hand, their bigotry and insistence on identity politics helps keep them out of local and national governance. What's a rational American to do? Encourage them or condemn them? There's a lot to be said for either approach.
Ultralight
11-6-17, 7:33pm
I'm of two minds on this, on the one hand it's a terrible blight on our society for liberals to be so illiberal, but on the other hand, their bigotry and insistence on identity politics helps keep them out of local and national governance. What's a rational American to do? Encourage them or condemn them? There's a lot to be said for either approach.
White identity politics are just as bad as any other sort of identity politics based on race, ethnicity, gender, etc.
There is a real implosion of liberals in this country. The election in VA tomorrow might be a real eye-opener.
There is a comedian, Tray Crowder, who goes by the title, "liberal redneck". He's from the deep south and from what I've looked up is not a fake actor but the real deal. I've laughed aloud at some of his commentaries. I drive a pickup, hunt and fish, and own guns but have liberal politics, so maybe I identify with him. He has a more serious commentary on gun violence. It might pretty much sum it up for me. (Has some for letter curse words).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73GicaeMo_E
Williamsmith
11-6-17, 10:59pm
There is a comedian, Tray Crowder, who goes by the title, "liberal redneck". He's from the deep south and from what I've looked up is not a fake actor but the real deal. I've laughed aloud at some of his commentaries. I drive a pickup, hunt and fish, and own guns but have liberal politics, so maybe I identify with him. He has a more serious commentary on gun violence. It might pretty much sum it up for me. (Has some for letter curse words).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=73GicaeMo_E
It would be nice when he was done being funny.....if he would make one concrete suggestion about how to prevent the next incident. Probably one of the few rednecks I’ve heard of that has a masters degree in business. He’s givin rednecks a bad name.
It would be nice when he was done being funny.....if he would make one concrete suggestion about how to prevent the next incident. Probably one of the few rednecks I’ve heard of that has a masters degree in business. He’s givin rednecks a bad name.
Actually he's only giving rednecks a bad name by showing that if they're lazy losers it's because they're lazy losers, not because they're rednecks.
But to answer your question, we could start by enforcing the laws we already have, like not letting people convicted of domestic violence purchase firearms. Somehow the guy in texas slipped through the cracks. Sad. And hopefully there will be repercussions for whoever didn't do their job and put him in the no firearms database.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/post-nation/wp/2017/11/06/investigators-hunt-for-motive-in-texas-church-shooting-as-the-grieving-spans-generations/?utm_term=.188db1d8af98
goldensmom
11-7-17, 6:39am
It is starting to sound as though this shooting had nothing to do with any of these causes mentioned here and to go back to domestic violence and inter-family anger and violence.
So maybe we need, as a culture, to do more to promote family therapy.
I think family therapy would help but anti-social personality disorders (sociopathic/psychopathic) are a combination of factors including genetics and environmental. There is present research that suggests that antisocial personality disorders can be caused by a brain dysfunction, faulty wiring. I worked with a family years ago where the 8-year-old son would catch squirrels and cut their heads off, he beat his younger sister with a tire iron, and many more such behaviors. The other children exhibited no such behavior. Family therapy would most likely help the rest of the family but the budding sociopath, not so much. Hopefully further research will result in more answers and solutions.
Teacher Terry
11-7-17, 12:25pm
YOu are so right goldensmom. I worked with a 4 yo boy that tried start a fire in my backseat of my car. After that he rode in front. I liked the kids to be in the back to be safer. He was severely abused but his Mom had supervised visitation. He asked me to run her over with my car in the parking lot one day. He had 2 older sisters that never hurt him but he broke one of their arms, etc. I would have been afraid to be his foster parent and be asleep in the same house with that kid. So he was the product of abuse but then so damaged that there was no hope at only 4. Ugh!
If there are sociopaths running around with guns, then we need to do something to protect those of us who are not so inclined. I know nothing of guns but if mass murder is defined as 4 or more people killed, is there really a need for general use firearms to have more available shots than that? Would restricting that feature be possible? Another thing that has changed in the last generation or two is the amount of violence featured in all media. Blood, guts are common now and surely must have a desensitizing effect on our minds.
goldensmom
11-7-17, 1:35pm
YOu are so right goldensmom. I worked with a 4 yo boy that tried start a fire in my backseat of my car. After that he rode in front. I liked the kids to be in the back to be safer. He was severely abused but his Mom had supervised visitation. He asked me to run her over with my car in the parking lot one day. He had 2 older sisters that never hurt him but he broke one of their arms, etc. I would have been afraid to be his foster parent and be asleep in the same house with that kid. So he was the product of abuse but then so damaged that there was no hope at only 4. Ugh!
So many personal work examples. I was transporting the 8-year-old home from residential treatment program and we stopped at McDonalds. He jumped out of the car, jumped over a fence and proceeded to run onto an inner state highway. When I got him back he started threatening and fought with the people who helped round him up. I took him right back to the facility. Apparently his time in treatment was not successful. I sometimes wondered if the facility just wanted him out. I think oftentimes residential treatment turns out to be more of a time out for the parent than successful treatment of the child.
Another quick example of a foster home that would take absolutely any child, any time of day or night, called and wanted the child removed immediately as she was chasing the other kids with a butcher knife. She was subsequently diagnosed Disassociate Personality Disorder. Yup, mental health issues are real and the resulting behaviors can be deadly. Enough shop talk.
Williamsmith
11-7-17, 1:44pm
In my simple imperfect understanding of the mind, I generally believe it’s not so much desensitization that is the problem but dehumanization, when you become just an object to shoot, it becomes easy.
Also, in general, we should be rigorously enforcing the current laws regarding the possession and purchase of firearms to restricted persons. But we should not expect these laws to actually protect us. That is up to us because when the deranged person is denied a sale, he can and will simply steal one from a vehicle or break into a residence and take one.
Which leaves us with just two feasible strategies. Either go door to door and confiscated every single firearm.....or arm yourself and engage the threat to your life.
And in Chicago this weekend:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-weekend-gun-violence-20171106-story.html
We're just too tolerant in this country.....of all unacceptable (criminal) behaviors. I know the problems are extremely complex........but it seems like so often, someone commits a horrible crime and they just got out of prison, or this is like their 5th crime.
Days without a mass shooting: 2. We’re on a roll here.
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