View Full Version : What's with all these sexual allegations coming to light?
Seems like so many people have come forward about so many celebrities, etc. Seems weird. Some of this stuff happened 30-40 years ago. What's going on?
It bothers me that so many women who were supposedly sexually assaulted many years ago, didn't say anything sooner. They were probably afraid they would ruin their careers. But that's not an excuse, is it?
And it seems like all the women are totally believed, without checking things out......and the accusers are immediately believed to be deviants.
I'm not saying it's right to do any of the things these people have been alleged to have done........but it does seem weird to me that so many people are now coming forward.
And I've noticed that some stories don't make sense....like the one about the mother who's son was so excited to meet Kevin Spacey in a bar. He told Spacey he was 21 and not 18 and Spacey bought him a bunch of drinks and then put his hand down the boy's pants and asked him to come up to his room. The mother said the boy said Spacey tried to rape him (at the bar). He got out of there and didn't even go up to Spacey's room.
I bring this up because some of the stories out there just don't make a lot of sense.
What's going on with all of this happening all at once?
These stories are awful and I just can't believe that so many would stay quiet for so long.....and these men could get away with such disgusting behavior for so long.
The world is just going crazy.
It reminds me of the pedophile priest scandal which had a cascading effect.
If you look at statistics you will see that sexual assault, including of children, is much greater than many people realize. I'm surprised there haven"t been more people coming forward. Maybe they don"t because people like you doubt them.
Teacher Terry
11-9-17, 9:07pm
Some of the stories are true and some are not. I read that the guy that used to lead the special crimes unit in NYC said at any one time they would find out after investigating that anywhere from 10-40% of the accusations would be proven to be false. I am interested in seeing what WS thinks.
It reminds me of the pedophile priest scandal which had a cascading effect.
If you look at statistics you will see that sexual assault, including of children, is much greater than many people realize. I'm surprised there haven"t been more people coming forward. Maybe they don"t because people like you doubt them.
People like me doubt them? I wouldn't say I doubted them I'm just questioning why so many are coming forward and how some of their stories don't make sense.
Sure you are doubting them.
It is much more common for a victim to be silent due to stigma and shame than for someone to make a false allegation. One estimate is there are 39 million victims of childhood sexual abuse in the U.S., never mind the adult victims. But there are not 39 million plus false allegations out there.
The first person stands alone. The 2nd person starts the movement. It is safe to tell the truth when many come forward. The victims have each other now for support and encouragement and the more that come forward the less stigmata for the victims.
The (mostly) white powerful men must be stopped! If the sentence hurts bad enough the crimes may slow way down. I for one am proud of my fellow women for coming forward and I admire their strength to do so. I can't even imagine how difficult it is to come forward let alone live with the pain for years and years......
I loved Ashley Judd's story about Weinstein...."yeah, when I win an Oscar in one of your movies" made him stop moving on her. How bold was she!!!! and so young when she did that.
I'll stop because crimes against women and children are a soapbox for me. You can't imagine what I've seen on the OR table in the past.
Williamsmith
11-9-17, 10:31pm
I’m not going to claim I am THE expert on sexual assault, although I have qualified and testified as an expert in Commonwealth Court. There is a certain amount of political correctness that affixes to these crimes. An investigator who suggests that an allegation is false better have his/her ducks in a row. There are reasons for false accusations. People sometimes use them to cover for being caught committing sexual indiscretions. Young women who live in religious environments with strict parents can decide its easier to make the allegation than to admit “weakness.” Some can use it as a tool to manipulate separation/ divorce or child custody issues.
But stats are incomplete simply because most investigators realize making the charge- don’t charge decision does not require challenging the veracity of the accuser. It just requires saying we don’t have a viable case. Saves face for all involved.
That said, I’d put my experience at about fifty fifty. I’ve convicted people who have been sentenced to life in prison for horrible sexual crimes.....and convicted for some for false accusations. The statute of limitations has been expanded as we have learned about the depth to which the harm represses memory and the courage to report. To trouble is, physical evidence is ephemeral. 30-40 years is a long time.
The polygraph exam is probably used more often on sex crimes than any other. But that’s another can of worms.
Yppej, You've misinterpreted my post. I always really try to analyze things correctly. I understand completely what Gardnr said........but what's wrong with making sure statements are correct?
And Williamsmith brought up issues I think about, concerning motive. Not everyone who is accused is guilty and not everyone is innocent.
I wish there were a better way to determine the truth.
I brought up the example about the 18 year old and Spacey because what the mother said didn't make sense.......that she was accusing Spacey of rape, which technically didn't happen. Yes, "fondling" can be traumatic too, but lets stick to facts.
And if I say, "Why did the boy say he was 21 when he was 18, then accept lots of alcoholic drinks from Spacey at the bar".........then you would probably say I was being unfair and biased. I'm not in any way condoning or excusing what Spacey did........I just look for the truth.
As someone who was sexually abused, family members would not believe it when I sought help. It violated their beliefs about the perpetrator and they simply couldn't handle that. Denial is the enemy as happened with any other crimes that comes to mind. The perpetrator then believes that one is immune and the story continues. For years afterwards, sometimes one's whole lifetime, one sees her or himself as a sexual object first and foremost; an intelligent capable valuable being is way, way, way down the line somewhere. Sexual abuse makes humans into personal toys and objects, not functioning human beings, for the powerful. It is a horrible crime. Yes, there may be some claims that are false but so many don't get reported because the first seeking of aid was denied or disregarded.
The best defence, IMHO, is for each child to know that her or his body is sovereign and NO ONE has any rights to it or access to it without informed consent. Children should be taught that from birth.
Cathy, I am with the others who strongly disagree with you about your views. Your post is important as a trigger for discussion.
If you ain't experienced it, you have absolutely no understanding. Do you understand what it is like to be a low-caste member in India, a black child in ghettos, a Puerto Rican without water or electricity, some one who has undergone the shooting in Las Vegas? Don't deny the terror and the harm of feeling helpless, unheard and afraid.
I believe that 50% of females are abused from an early age onwards. Males may be similar. My dear DH was so distressed to hear me say that as it was totally outside his comprehension. As facts of the pedophilia of the priests came to light, he started to feel truly pained as do so many of those who have no comprehension of doing such things. He felt helpless not knowing what to do about it. Many choose to deny the problem to relieve their pain.
Imagine, a judge last year told a young complainant in a case of rape that she should simply have kept her knees together to prevent the rape. It was her fault. He was subsequently removed from office with the public outcry. There is legislation about mandatory sensitivity training for the judiciary that passed the first stage in Parliament but is being held up in the Senate because some senators feel it is not such an evil that it needs further training. Talk about denial!
That said, my life changed with the challenges that I have faced. I am a different person with greater empathy and compassion fighting for changes where I see the need and opportunity. I became and am a warrior for good and that is my life's goal and purpose.
razz....I understand what you're saying. (And by the way, you have no clue what I have or haven't experienced). This issue is so complex. Maybe I'll start another post about instinct and how we try so hard to suppress it. (And how we teach little girls to be coy and dress in a provocative manner). I'm in no way saying that probably most of the women coming forward haven't been molested. But I also like to think about what brings us to this place in "civilization".
I fear my trying to understand so many issues that come up in a "civilized" society comes across as my agreeing or disagreeing with something.
I think some have over-reacted or misunderstood what I am trying to say.
I'm so very sorry what you experienced, razz. Please believe me that I'm trying to sort through lots of issues that are happening without being incorrect or unfair to anyone involved.
Williamsmith
11-10-17, 10:06am
These cases are investigated thouroughly, tried aggressively and defended robustly. In court, it’s usually a knock down drag out fight to the finish. Relationships are torn asunder, families split, careers can be made or broken and sentences for the convicted are long. Prisoners are not kind to sexual offenders.
Every case has its merits or demerits.
Let’s just pose a scenario: Three female siblings attend the same school....one confides in her teacher-her father as been molesting her for years. And her younger siblings are being molested too. The other siblings are resistant to divulging their personal hell but reluctantly they do. Mom is adamant. This is not happening. She says the older girl is rebelling against their discipline at home and accuses the teacher of encouraging a false accusation. Or perhaps mom realizes if the father is convicted, the family has no income and no way to support itself.
The older girl sticks to her story and a foster home is found for her. The younger ones recant and remain in the home. A pricey defense attorney has to be hired. Imagine the turmoil this is going to cause in the family for life.
Now imagine someone like CathyA and someone like Razz are on the same jury. There is likely going to be long deliberations in the jury room. As a juror you want to have concrete evidence that would prove beyond all doubt that the father was guilty. But the standard is a “reasonable doubt”. Now you get to decide if the prosecution has met its burden and know that your decision is going to impact someone greatly no matter what it is. No fun. No fun at all.
I once had a therapist tell me she thinks I was sexually assaulted when i was a toddler. I have no recall. I elected not to undergo hypnosis or regression therapy. I do know that my oldest brother attempted assault with one of my older sisters. The other older sister got him the hell away and threatened his life. This was the early 60s. This sister also thinks that he got to me.
If it happened? Well, he is dead. Suicide back in 1994. I had long forgotten about all of this. Now it's back.
For women and men and children who KNOW it happened? I am so very very sorry and cannot imagine their daily lives dealing with the trauma. For those who know it has NEVER happened, yea you!
I find offensive the statement "girls dressing provocatively". This makes assault the victims' fault. "She MADE me do it".
And the saddest thing of all? There are women in this country who make a living having sex. It' readily available everywhere and I grew up in tiny country town America. This is a crime of violence NOT of sex.
It is a CRIME>:(
BikingLady
11-10-17, 11:31am
Not specifically this topic, but any topic: It's takes over the news if there are enough reports to fill the gotcha slot on the page. I stopped hitting the news sites for a full week( now I only scan and read headlines once a day if that ), when I returned to the pages of the rag news sites I noticed Fox had replaced the slot which had the "teacher had relations with student" and there seem to be more than imaginable, with Sexual Allegations of everyone. Yesterday was Cory Feldman accusing Charlie Sheen, I shut the Mac and said enough!
I care, I do, I feel for all involved the men and the women who should be believed. The "supposed" predator who should be believed till proven guilty.
JaneV2.0
11-10-17, 11:49am
I'm sure many, many women (myself included) have been grabbed, groped, propositioned, and worse without saying anything about it--it's such a common thing. it's usually just your word against theirs--not many of these creeps do their dirty work publicly, after all--and for many, it is about livelihood. if you speak out, you're considered a troublemaker, and blacklisted. I heard some female comics talking this morning about Louis CK--that everyone knew about him--one had been a recipient of his "attentions." That's how these guys work--they count on the silence of those around them.
Teacher Terry
11-10-17, 12:23pm
Thanks WS for your perspective. I was a social worker for 4 years working with kids that had been abused. Yes it was horrible what sexual things parents did to their kids. Occasionally it would be determined that the accusation was false and the Mom put the kid up to it in a custody/divorce fight. Ugh! Yes many men and women have been abused but it is wrong to automatically believe all victims. If I was on a jury I would be looking at the evidence.
It bothers me that so many women who were supposedly sexually assaulted many years ago, didn't say anything sooner. They were probably afraid they would ruin their careers. But that's not an excuse, is it?
"An excuse"??? For what?
Victims of sexual assault or harassment don't owe any duty of care to the rest of society - their needs and concerns come first. Laying a guilt trip on them, or requiring them to justify their actions in not-reporting, is a horrible thing to do.
I help process sexual assault victims here in our community. We pull about 2 dozen rape kits a year. This results in about 0 (zero, none, nada) prosecutions each year. In a community of ~15,000 people. So, the 2 dozen kits are to people who are already outliers, and have decided to take the intrusive and traumatic step of the interview and examination. There are a lot more victims who simply elect to move on with their lives, and never say a word.
I have been assaulted myself in the past, by people in positions of trust or authority. I almost never breathed a word of it to anyone, the world was not a safe space to pursue such actions, and the emotional, energy, and time commitment required seemed counterproductive to my life. Today, in my position of privilege and power, I'd have them dealt with harshly, but that wasn't really an option for me then.
Teacher Terry
11-10-17, 2:49pm
Bae, why aren't there ever any prosecutions?
Bae, why aren't there ever any prosecutions?
While I'm not the Prosecutor, I've spoken to him about the matter, and I've observed the two trials we've had in the past few years. Basically, our legal system's standard of proof of "beyond a reasonable doubt" is very difficult to meet, and if it's a case of two people - the victim and the assailant - disagreeing about what happened, and there isn't other useful evidence, convictions won't happen. Add to that problem the issue that the victim may not want to cooperate with a prosecution, likely because of the emotional, time, and social burdens, and it's nearly impossible for him to get a jury to find someone guilty, if they follow the jury instructions.
http://www.seattlepi.com/local/sound/article/Rape-case-against-Orcas-Island-man-is-dismissed-976387.php
Many of the people who work up their courage to go through the rape interview process seem to be put off enough by that experience that they don't wish to go further.
The rapes/assaults we have here don't tend to be the scary-movie-stranger-rape, they tend to be date rape/miscommunication/consent violation sort of things, or involve people in positions of power with folks younger than themselves.
The last case we prosecuted here turned into a horrorshow for the whole community. It would make a movie script. Highlights - peoples' lives ruined, detective investigating the case seduced by the victim, deputy manufactures/covers-up evidence, and also messes up another case, disaster all around:
http://www.islandsweekly.com/news/orcas-teacher-found-guilty-of-sexual-misconduct/
http://www.islandssounder.com/news/investigation-reveals-detective-allegedly-had-sexual-relationship-with-victim/
http://www.islandssounder.com/news/disgraced-detective-involved-in-delayed-filing-of-rape-case/
Teacher Terry
11-10-17, 3:25pm
What a mess! Being in a bigger town many of our cases are strangers so I am sure that makes it easier to prosecute.
"An excuse"??? For what?
Victims of sexual assault or harassment don't owe any duty of care to the rest of society - their needs and concerns come first. Laying a guilt trip on them, or requiring them to justify their actions in not-reporting, is a horrible thing to do.
I have been assaulted myself in the past, by people in positions of trust or authority. .
Thank you, I like how clearly you stated that a victim does not owe anything to anybody. These are very difficult crimes to prove, unlike on Law and Order SVU. Not everyone feels better sharing their story.
My current work situation is one where I hear and am encouraged to do the ideal thing, go to an authority, trust them to help me make change, and walk out without more harm. Yup, not really trusting that. So I am working with understanding the 'new normal', building support systems that are not dependent on the people in charge, and watching for an opportunity. I have been harassed, marginalized, treated like crap, heck I am female in my 50's! Many more have had it worse, but the last thing we need is to put another burden on them to do what we want them to when we have not lived their experience.
Cathy, there is a lot in the media right now that should help you to understand why people do not talk. Here is a link to an article by an actor who was molested as a child:
https://www.msn.com/en-us/tv/celebrity/anthony-edwards-writes-about-sexual-molestation-at-hand-of-gary-goddard/ar-BBEORPF?li=BBmkt5R&ocid=spartandhp
When Heather Unruh gave her press conference yesterday, the lawyer there.who was the lawyer for many abused in the Boston clerical abuse situation that was outlined in the movie Spotlight, said it very eloquently:
People talk about it when they are ready to talk about it, whether they are nine or ninety. He said that there are victims coming forward today who were abused in the 1930's.
I don't disbelieve them because they are just now talking about it--and what Bae said is absolutely correct, a victim has no responsibility to anyone to tell what happened to them, and no would should disbelieve them or shame them because they do not talk at time it happened.
My 90 year old mother told me about abuse that happened to her as a child--I had never, ever known of this, and she said she never told anyone because she felt sorry for the man's wife.
I write this as a survivor of childhood sexual assault, and there are many people I have never told--including my parents.
Would the world be a better place today if Ted Kennedy had been driven out of office by scandal in 1969 or Bill Clinton in 1998?
Would the world be a better place today if Ted Kennedy had been driven out of office by scandal in 1969 ...?
Teach your daughters to swim and to not get into cars with politicians.
Teacher Terry
11-15-17, 2:22pm
While Ted Kennedy did a lot of good things through the years it does not make up for the fact that he did not try to rescue her or summon help (if I am remembering correctly). Clinton was in consensual relationship. He wasn't groping women, etc.
I'm sure many, many women (myself included) have been grabbed, groped, propositioned, and worse without saying anything about it--it's such a common thing
Yep. I hadn't thought about it until all these news stories but I was able to recall at least three incidents from my younger days of this sort of behavior. Things that could not really be discussed with anyone other than another girlfriend perhaps. I had never discussed it with DH but when I told him the details yesterday, I think he understood better what it is like to be preyed upon by people who should learn to control themselves.
Teacher Terry
11-15-17, 2:28pm
When I was 15 the district manager that only flew in occasionally for the fast food chain I worked for p.t. started to grab me in the ass. I asked my
Dad how to handle it and he said he would. I said no. So he gave me pointers and I used them and he stopped. When I was in 5th grade the junior high was right across the street. WE were walking home and an 8th grade boy grabbed me in the crotch and then ran off. I turned right around and went to the principal's office to report it. The boy got into a lot of trouble and that was the end of it. Like PT I had long forgotten about these things.
Clinton was in consensual relationship. He wasn't groping women, etc.
Leaving aside the the various other women who have made claims to the contrary, I have to wonder how "consensual" a sexual relationship can be between an extremely powerful man and a very junior subordinate.
Leaving aside the the various other women who have made claims to the contrary, I have to wonder how "consensual" a sexual relationship can be between an extremely powerful man and a very junior subordinate.
The sexual harassment training I received decades ago in Silicon Valley would lead me to conclude that such a relationship would be "not good".
My cousin used to work for Teddy Kennedy. I have always wondered about that relationship--she was a noted babe.
Leaving aside the the various other women who have made claims to the contrary, I have to wonder how "consensual" a sexual relationship can be between an extremely powerful man and a very junior subordinate.
What Clinton did was absolutely wrong, but it falls into a grey area for me as to whether it was harassment. Being the devil's advocate, if a young aid of legal age aggressively solicits a person of power to have intimate contact, who is the victim. In Clinton's case I'm uncertain enough of the details to make a call.
I had harassment training in my corporate days. There was a zero tolerance guideline. By my experience, which was a threat of violence rather than sexual, zero tolerance was not followed. Unless things are fairly overt, often a warning can be the first step. That should not be the case, but it was the corporate world of politics.
Clinton was a sexual predator. While the Lewinsky affair was consensual he harassed other women against their will in Arkansas.
Williamsmith
11-15-17, 7:32pm
I have an admission to make. All these old sexual harassment accusations have got me thinking about my past. And I am a bit worried. At the age of 11..... my first crush was a cute girl who lived a block away and my friends and I would walk past her house. She’d come out and hang around. It was all innocent stuff. But I can’t remember why, man I wish I could .....one day she up and slapped me right across the face. I probably deserved it but for the life of me all I can remember was that our song was.....”The Rollerskate Song” or “Brand New Key”. Now i realize that was nearly a half century ago but still.......could she find me and tell the whole world about it? I mean, what if I did something wrong?
https://youtu.be/RCTMTflcuug
I wondered about that too, Williamsmith. Not about me, but I wonder how many men are thinking back 40-50 years ago and trying to remember if they did something that could lose them their job today.
If I were a victim and didn't want to discuss my past trauma publicly, but felt it was important to the voters to know what Roy Moore was like, I might have kept quiet hoping he would lose in the primary, and only spoken up after he won. No one will speak on the record but apparently Moore was banned from a mall for hitting on teenage customers. At least the other perverts in the news lately stuck to adults, except Kevin Spacey.
ETA: Mrs. Moore can't seriously believe it's all a vast left wing conspiracy, can she?
Simplemind
11-15-17, 11:02pm
Years ago I was assigned to the persons crime unit in detectives. Believe me, conversation went beyond the pale due to the cases we were working. If you were faint of heart it wasn't the place to be. It was quite the boys club as well and nobody was ever challenged. Assignments to that unit were on rotation and a Sgt rotated in and he was a predator. He was also good friends with the Lt. who was not but thought nothing of making rude and crude remarks. Things started to get very uncomfortable. I was also pregnant and feeling very vulnerable. I figured if I kept my head down and gutted it out that he would be gone and life would go on. I knew I was not in the place to take on a systemic problem. I felt somewhat in control of my fate until somebody complained on my behalf and an internal affairs investigation was opened. I did not want to participate and knew that the person to suffer would be me. I was ordered to cooperate by the Chief. A gag order was also placed on me that I was not to discuss it with anyone. Nobody else had a gag order and rumors started to fly. I was not allowed to say one word in my defense, not even that I had not made the complaint. The Sgt and Lt. ended up leaving after the union would not back them. I was taken from my coveted position and put in Records making copies all day. I became a pariah. It was followed by our local media. Women that he had made moves on out on the street were calling me telling me they would be character witnesses. The city decided that harassment training was mandatory. Nobody would speak to me unless it was absolutely necessary because I broke the rule - never rat. When I tried to get other jobs in other agencies I did great in the hiring process until it came to the background and I was washed due to this incident. I did nothing wrong, I was used to get rid of two problems and then became a bigger liability so they had to root round my past in order to make me look like such a horrible person I couldn't have possibly been a victim. In the end the way the City treated me was a thousand times worse than the original incidents. When I hear people questioning why victims don't come forward it just makes my blood boil. You have no clue until you have been there.
Williamsmith
11-16-17, 9:52am
I’d say if it wasn’t for the timing, Roy Moore would be history. The timing gives deniers plenty of cover. As for the wife, it’s what she has to do....considering her options.
How did you feel about Hillary and the way they attacked Bills accusers. A bit of a double standard and a big dose of hypocrisy some people are carrying around.
I’d say if it wasn’t for the timing, Roy Moore would be history. The timing gives deniers plenty of cover. As for the wife, it’s what she has to do....considering her options.
How did you feel about Hillary and the way they attacked Bills accusers. A bit of a double standard and a big dose of hypocrisy some people are carrying around.
"Drag a hundred-dollar bill through a trailer park, and you never know what you'll find."
For those of you unfamiliar with the Carville quote that LDAHL just gave you, here's a primer:
http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/resources/1998/clinton.jones/characters.html
http://lithub.com/rebecca-solnit-let-this-flood-of-womens-stories-never-cease/ An article that explains a great deal of how I feel about this.
Teacher Terry
11-16-17, 12:34pm
Simplemind: that is truly awful. They just used and discarded you. Ugh!
And now Senator Al Franken has been added to the list: http://www.kabc.com/2017/11/16/leeann-tweeden-on-senator-al-franken/
catherine
11-16-17, 12:52pm
Simplemind, what an awful story. So true that unless you've walked in another woman's shoes... Corrupt power is a terrible thing.
BikingLady
11-16-17, 2:53pm
Oh and so many more will be added to the list........
Simplemind
11-16-17, 3:03pm
Thank you Catherine, that means more than you will ever know. Even the paternity of my child and the fact that I had him out of wedlock was used to show I had low moral character. We had a Police levy fail and the City manager blamed it on the negative press and called for employees who would now lose their positions to hold my feet to the fire. They did everything they could to make me quit and I wasn't going to give them the satisfaction. What they were doing now has a name... mobbing. I stayed there another 17 years in order to keep the salary and pension that I needed as a single mom. In time most forgot but I never did. As soon as I was able to retire at 55 I was out of there. I had started there loving my job for the first 9 years and sucking it up with my head down the last 17. Yes, it was all about power. In the next few years 5 of our female officers left for other agencies. On a side note, this Sgt also bullied the officers as well as people on the street. Many of them came to my home off hours to offer support but admitted that they could not support me out in the open because they had also been victims and didn't think the system would ever hold him accountable and they needed their jobs and wouldn't rat fearing their own safety. At one point the investigator was convinced that the Sgt would go sideways (he had already been stalking me before he quit) and they put a three car response through 911 on my address in case he showed up there. I lived in terror for over a year that he was going to come after me. You don't cross the blue line.
Thank you Catherine, that means more than you will ever know. Even the paternity of my child and the fact that I had him out of wedlock was used to show I had low moral character. We had a Police levy fail and the City manager blamed it on the negative press and called for employees who would now lose their positions to hold my feet to the fire. They did everything they could to make me quit and I wasn't going to give them the satisfaction. What they were doing now has a name... mobbing. I stayed there another 17 years in order to keep the salary and pension that I needed as a single mom. In time most forgot but I never did. As soon as I was able to retire at 55 I was out of there. I had started there loving my job for the first 9 years and sucking it up with my head down the last 17. Yes, it was all about power. In the next few years 5 of our female officers left for other agencies. On a side note, this Sgt also bullied the officers as well as people on the street. Many of them came to my home off hours to offer support but admitted that they could not support me out in the open because they had also been victims and didn't think the system would ever hold him accountable and they needed their jobs and wouldn't rat fearing their own safety. At one point the investigator was convinced that the Sgt would go sideways (he had already been stalking me before he quit) and they put a three car response through 911 on my address in case he showed up there. I lived in terror for over a year that he was going to come after me. You don't cross the blue line.
What a terrible,terrible story, Simplemind. I think it very eloquently answers the question that started the forum, why do people remain silent, why don't they report.
I admire your courage and grace under a terrible ordeal, a 17 year sentence that you had to serve for a crime that was committed against you.
What a shameful story about the police department where you worked.
I’d say if it wasn’t for the timing, Roy Moore would be history. The timing gives deniers plenty of cover. As for the wife, it’s what she has to do....considering her options.
Correct me if I'm wrong but aren't at least a couple of Moore's accusers lifelong republicans and trump voters? Not sure what they had to gain by sharing their stories with journalists. They voted for one predatory asshole and now that it's someone running for national office that actually harmed them, perhaps they finally reached the breaking point of enough is enough.
These past few weeks have been eye opening to me. The sheer quantity of "me too"'s that flooded my facebook feed a couple of weeks ago, and now the seemingly countless number of women coming forward to accuse all sorts of men from both sides of the political spectrum makes me think that the article that nswef posted is probably spot on.
flowerseverywhere
11-17-17, 12:16am
And now Senator Al Franken has been added to the list: http://www.kabc.com/2017/11/16/leeann-tweeden-on-senator-al-franken/
Trump jumped right on the bandwagon with his condemnation. He must not be the “great guy” Moore is. Moore was just like Jesus and Mary in the Bible I guess.
Ultralight
11-17-17, 8:26am
My friend, the SJW said this to me:
"I have a 'guilty until proven innocent' position when it comes to sexual violence, so my concerns about due process are limited."
Franken offered a fairly lengthy apology which it sounds like his accuser accepted. Which doesn't make it OK, but his sounded a little more like a prank of misconduct than leching after 14 year olds.
Our local radio plays Arlo Guthrie's, Alice's Restaurant every Thanksgiving. Between the political scandals and the misconduct accusations I feel like Arlo sitting on the bench in the police station. I think all I've done is maybe litter but the bench is sure filled with a bunch of criminals. It has all lowered my estimation of our cultures integrity.
Franken offered a fairly lengthy apology which it sounds like his accuser accepted. Which doesn't make it OK, but his sounded a little more like a prank of misconduct than leching after 14 year olds.
Our local radio plays Arlo Guthrie's, Alice's Restaurant every Thanksgiving. Between the political scandals and the misconduct accusations I feel like Arlo sitting on the bench in the police station. I think all I've done is maybe litter but the bench is sure filled with a bunch of criminals. It has all lowered my estimation of our cultures integrity.
I probably should not comment as I have not read about the Franken case, just heard about it.
I have had men grab personal body parts of mine, unasked and without consent, once at the age of 14 (a friend of my parents) and at no time, ever, do I feel that this should be termed a "prank of misconduct."
iris lilies
11-17-17, 10:56am
And now Senator Al Franken has been added to the list: http://www.kabc.com/2017/11/16/leeann-tweeden-on-senator-al-franken/
Al Franken is not funny and was never funny, regardless of how many photos he faked of feeling up some woman’s boobs. Gosh darn it, I didnt like him.
Franken offered a fairly lengthy apology which it sounds like his accuser accepted. Which doesn't make it OK, but his sounded a little more like a prank of misconduct than leching after 14 year olds.
Our local radio plays Arlo Guthrie's, Alice's Restaurant every Thanksgiving. Between the political scandals and the misconduct accusations I feel like Arlo sitting on the bench in the police station. I think all I've done is maybe litter but the bench is sure filled with a bunch of criminals. It has all lowered my estimation of our cultures integrity.
I probably should not comment as I have not read about the Franken case, just heard about it.
I have had men grab personal body parts of mine, unasked and without consent, once at the age of 14 (a friend of my parents) and at no time, ever, do I feel that this should be termed a "prank of misconduct."
I am saddened that you are equating personal violations, often with lasting traumatic effects, with littering.
I am saddened that you are equating personal violations, often with lasting traumatic effects, with littering.
I think I've failed to communicate properly. Even though I am a male, I really have not committed "personal violations". Other than maybe taking a few pencils from work and maybe a little littering type things, which was not a comparison to anything at all. The point being that all this has been an eye opener, and I get the feeling of an innocent surrounded by others of previous respect who do have their violations, be it political or moral. However, I do think that not all forms of harassment, predation, or misconduct are equal in severity.
Williamsmith
11-17-17, 11:32am
I think I've failed to communicate properly. Even though I am a male, I really have not committed "personal violations". The point being that all this has been an eye opener, and I get the feeling of an innocent surrounded by others of previous respect who do have their violations, be it political or moral. However, I do think that not all forms of harassment, predation, or misconduct are equal in severity.
You did either conveniently or by ignorance leave out the fact that Franken stuck is tongue down the complainants throat, grabbed her by the back of the head and mashed his lips against hers without her consent. That’s not in the same ballpark as a “prank”. I think whether it occurs in Minnesota or In Alabama...it is wrong. Right is right and wrong is wrong. We shouldn’t be enabling elected officials to feel they are powerful enough to dispense with common decency.
WS, there is nothing I can see in what I said to imply what Franken did was OK. Only that there are differences in degree of wrongness. I'll go away now.
WS, there is nothing I can see in what I said to imply what Franken did was OK. Only that there are differences in degree of wrongness. I'll go away now.
I agree with you Rogar.
Williamsmith
11-17-17, 12:35pm
WS, there is nothing I can see in what I said to imply what Franken did was OK. Only that there are differences in degree of wrongness. I'll go away now.
Theres no need to go away. I do disagree....what you said drew a distinction between the Franken scenario and the Judge Roy scenario with the favor going toward Franken as more of a “prank” situation. There is no distinction. Both are clearly wrong. That’s my opinion and I am genuinely interested in you continuing to express yours.
Teacher Terry
11-17-17, 12:40pm
I think there is a difference in the actual act that is performed. Between the ages of 10-25 I have had men grab my ass, breast and crotch and I don't feel scarred by it. Heck I had forgotten about these incidents until all the talk about it. I can easily see where women are scarred by more aggressive and invasive acts. One woman that was grabbed once on her butt claims to be scarred for life. That I don't buy. Men don't have a right to touch woman at all without their okay but not every woman is scarred by every small act. I know this won't be a popular sentiment but I think that people need to take a more balanced approach when looking at these things. The woman I really feel sorry for are the ones that had to put up with this shit to keep jobs they needed. Talk about a living hell.
Oh wow, Terry, I am really shocked by what you are saying. Men grabbed you sexually at the age of 10 and you don't feel scarred, and you feel others "need to take a more balanced approach when looking at these things."
My God.
I think men grabbing 10 years olds sexually is a living hell, frankly. Not to minimize the terrible thing that Simplemind lived through. But you are describing a rape culture, and victims are supposed to minimize these assaults.
As a grandmother, if someone grabbed my granddaughter in the way you describe there is not going to be a "balanced way of looking at things." You better believe it.
Franken apparently groped the reporter while she slept and then took pictures of it and showed them to people.
That is not a harmless prank, unless you buy into rape culture.
Now I will go away, as I am getting extremely angry at what I am reading here, and there's no point in getting angry, I have expressed myself, and we're all free to have opinions on the subject.
Teacher Terry
11-17-17, 1:14pm
If you read my earlier posts a 8th grader grabbed my crotch after school and I went right back into the school and reported him to the principal and he was punished. The other incidents occurred between 15-25 and I handled them myself. Even the one at work at age 15 from the district manager and it stopped. I went to my Dad for advice and at first he wanted to handle it but I said no and he taught me what to say and do. I am saying there is a difference as an ADULT not a child to being grabbed sexually and being assaulted, etc. In my book it is not the same. Obviously an adult should never touch a child. I don't think any of it is right and I hope that one day things will be different. What I was trying to convey is that levels of trauma are different and getting groped as a adult is not the same trauma as getting assaulted. All of this is against the law and people get prosecuted and punished as they should be if reported. i worked with kids at one point that had been physically and/or sexually abused and the effects were horrible. That is not what I am talking about.
The picture, while unforgivably juvenile, was posed, with no touching of a woman who was apparently wearing a flack jacket. With several people in the room. When a co-worker grabbed my ass, I chased him down and grabbed his.
Astoundingly, Trump has condemned Franken. Maybe he is delusional. Still no word on Moore from the man who enjoyed walking in on undressed teenage pageant contestants, and admitted forcing himself on women.
I never found Franken particularly funny as a comedian; I like his performance as a senator much better.
Williamsmith
11-17-17, 2:06pm
The picture, while unforgivably juvenile, was posed, with no touching of a woman who was apparently wearing a flack jacket. With several people in the room. When a co-worker grabbed my ass, I chased him down and grabbed his.
Astoundingly, Trump has condemned Franken. Maybe he is delusional. Still no word on Moore from the man who enjoyed walking in on undressed teenage pageant contestants, and admitted forcing himself on women.
I never found Franken particularly funny as a comedian; I like his performance as a senator much better.
I can’t help it. Here is another apologist for Franken. Did you hear the entire victim statement? How would you describe the forcible kissing incident? “Unforgivably juvenile” ? I can only deduce from your last statement that it is his politics that leads you to this position. If Trump did such a thing, you would be calling for his impeachment and arrest.
iris lilies
11-17-17, 2:29pm
The picture, while unforgivably juvenile, was posed, with no touching of a woman who was apparently wearing a flack jacket. With several people in the room. When a co-worker grabbed my ass, I chased him down and grabbed his.
Astoundingly, Trump has condemned Franken. Maybe he is delusional. Still no word on Moore from the man who enjoyed walking in on undressed teenage pageant contestants, and admitted forcing himself on women.
I never found Franken particularly funny as a comedian; I like his performance as a senator much better.
Jane, I almost wrote what you did about the juvenile photo. But then
I remember that he rammed himself against her, insisting that they kiss for “rehearsal” and pushed his tongue down her throat.
Now, I will postulate that it might have NOT been been especially sexual for Al Franken, that I can envision. Some of these performers are “on” strong all the time. That's how I think of some of those Saturday Night Live regulars, as being regular people on steroids.
But the woman in question was bothered by it and told him so in no uncertain terms. To his credit, it doesnt seem like he attacked her agan, but I am vague on the timing of his advances toward her.
in the realm of offenses this is not a big deal, and I find his begging for an Ethic Investigation as icky as the original act. It is all very much as bae cited above, Maoist style flagellation. It is cringe worthy. Make it stop!!!
I am so utterly sick and tired of this being the No. 1 media story.
I've been kissed by people whose performances were at best inept, and at worst gagworthy. (And I don't remember any of them announcing their intentions...) How remiss of me not to report them to the proper authorities! :help: But then I wasn't a helpless, clueless teenager at the time.
I agree completely--but I guess kiss and tell is more palatable than pipeline failures and trafficking in elephant parts.
The way I see Trump's words, probably a lot of people said fake news or ya da ya da. But out of his staunch supporters there is a small subset, say a few dozen or who knows, a few hundred, that are going to say, Donald the president and my hero says this locker talk and maybe actions are ok. It's cool. His position of high authority has created or encouraged maybe a multitude or harassers and abusers. And who knows how his sexist attitude affects his decision as world leader making that affects millions. I don't consider him fit for office for that reason alone, but he's is unfit for other reasons, too.
The picture, while unforgivably juvenile, was posed, with no touching of a woman who was apparently wearing a flack jacket. With several people in the room.
That picture sexualizes, objectifies, demeans, and degrades that woman in a workplace setting, in front of her coworkers no-less. That picture was then *distributed* to the coworkers. This is the very picture of sexual harassment of a woman in the workplace.
I can't see how to defend or diminish that. In any company I have worked at, there would have been some actions taken.
I've been kissed by people whose performances were at best inept, and at worst gagworthy. (And I don't remember any of them announcing their intentions...)
Consent is perhaps an issue for some...
Teacher Terry
11-17-17, 3:30pm
Tybee, the more I think about this the more I think that you are right. Women just got used to dealing with such things. Also I was strong and was not affected by this garbage. But you are right that girls, woman and even boys should not have to worry about defending ourselves. So many things are wrong with this world. Senseless wars, senseless killing and the abuse of many people. Until I went to work for the state sexual harassment was not enforced and if the man was powerful and the woman was not it was the woman who lost her job. I think the worst thing about Franken was the kissing incident. I actually had always liked him. The picture was a bad idea also. He may be kissing his career goodbye.
Tybee, the more I think about this the more I think that you are right. Women just got used to dealing with such things. Also I was strong and was not affected by this garbage. But you are right that girls, woman and even boys should not have to worry about defending ourselves. So many things are wrong with this world. Senseless wars, senseless killing and the abuse of many people. Until I went to work for the state sexual harassment was not enforced and if the man was powerful and the woman was not it was the woman who lost her job. I think the worst thing about Franken was the kissing incident. I actually had always liked him. The picture was a bad idea also. He may be kissing his career goodbye.
I think we grew up in similar times, Terry, and so much of what happened was considered "normal." I think you are right, "women just got used to dealing with such things." As you say, people should not have to worry about defending themselves against these attacks.
I think this was one of the more disturbing things about Franken was doing something to someone while they were asleep, then exposing them to mockery for his assault on them. And I think you are right, the physical assault was probably the worst.
Maybe something good can come out of all these revelations, that we can think about what we consider normal and whether it's okay.
And thank you very very much for your work with survivors of sexual abuse. I admire you for working to make a difference!
flowerseverywhere
11-17-17, 4:05pm
We need to teach our children and grandchildren it is not OK to grab someone of the same sex or opposite sex and how to tell their teachers and parents. Why were these women, some with pictorial evidence or witnesses so afraid to come forward? Job loss, public humiliation at being labeled, and loss of reputation among others.
For far far too long women have been seen as sluts if they were raped (why didn’t you just hold your knees together tighter) while men were expected to sow their wild oats.
The most disturbing thing to me about the Al Franken story was not only acting like that but bragging and sharing the photo. It truly must have been embarrassing for her, all for a few laughs.
Political party makes no difference. It is shameful and if they truly were remorseful they would have the dignity to resign from public office. Instead the women have to relive the shame over and over in the court of public opinion.
It is morning in America again!
http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2017/11/sitting_supreme_court_justice.html
http://image.cleveland.com/home/cleve-media/width600/img/open_impact/photo/Screen%20Shot%202017-11-17%20at%2011.47.36%20AM.png
Teacher Terry
11-17-17, 4:08pm
I think we are the exact same age:)) I was lucky in that my Dad did not think that women should be taken advantage of. I had a uncle that would caress my hair and I would ask him to stop when I was little but he wouldn't. My Dad told him to stop in no uncertain terms. He always stuck up for us. I only lasted 4 years working with the abused kids. It was just too heart breaking. This is a first time I have ever changed my mind on a subject from reading a forum post. I guess you can teach a old dog new tricks:))
And also Jeffrey Tambor. Yowza.
https://www.hollywoodreporter.com/news/transparent-star-alleges-jeffrey-tambor-sexually-harassed-her-got-physical-1059306
And George HW Bush, oh the horrors. If you can't fend off a 90-year-old wheelchair-bound bloke with palsy, there's no hope for you.
I do hope this hysteria blows over soon. Sort the wheat from the chaff, prosecute if appropriate, and move on.
And George HW Bush, oh the horrors. If you can't fend off a 90-year-old wheelchair-bound bloke with palsy, there's no hope for you.
Wow.
Shaming the victim.
I'm sorry, if you're a female at a photo op with an ex-president in a wheelchair and you are facing the camera, and he slithers his slimy hand onto your nubile young ass, it's a bit of a situation. And the old perv in the chair knows it.
flowerseverywhere
11-17-17, 5:25pm
It is morning in America again!
http://www.cleveland.com/open/index.ssf/2017/11/sitting_supreme_court_justice.html
http://image.cleveland.com/home/cleve-media/width600/img/open_impact/photo/Screen%20Shot%202017-11-17%20at%2011.47.36%20AM.png
seriously 50 sex partners. I must be living in an alternate universe this is so out of my comprehension.
Vietnam vet, attorney, registered nurse. Hopefully all his partners were willing participants. He sure has been a busy man.
flowerseverywhere
11-17-17, 5:26pm
And George HW Bush, oh the horrors. If you can't fend off a 90-year-old wheelchair-bound bloke with palsy, there's no hope for you.
I do hope this hysteria blows over soon. Sort the wheat from the chaff, prosecute if appropriate, and move on.
Precisely why why so many victims don’t speak up.
seriously 50 sex partners. I must be living in an alternate universe this is so out of my comprehension.
Well, over 50 years. That's not exactly in the realm of madness. Especially if he lived through the 60s and 70s.
Precisely why why so many victims don’t speak up.
Right! And the abusers know it, and rely upon it.
Teacher Terry
11-17-17, 5:41pm
I read that Old Bush suffers from a rare form of Parkinson's and that because of it his inhibitions are lacking. However, if this is the case then why not surround him by men or old women instead of young women? Or better yet skip the photo ops.
Ultralight
11-17-17, 5:44pm
Thoughts on these types of sexual assault allegations?
http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2013&stc=1
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/teacher-arrested-texts-reveal-relationship-student-article-1.3639757
Ultralight
11-17-17, 5:46pm
Well, over 50 years. That's not exactly in the realm of madness. Especially if he lived through the 60s and 70s.
50 sex partners is not that many for most people. I know men and women in that range and they aren't yet 40 years old.
Teacher Terry
11-17-17, 5:49pm
Probably will be convicted as she should be if she is guilty which it sounds like she is.
Ultralight
11-17-17, 5:53pm
Will be convicted as she should be if she is proven guilty through due process.
There. I fixed it for you.
50 sex partners is not that many for most people. I know men and women in that range and they aren't yet 40 years old.
Well, surveys seem to show the "lifetime number" for Americans is around 7, which is based on the survey respondent honestly answering the question. I'm curious what the shape of the curve is, I suspect "on average" that 50 is out a standard deviation or two, but in some subsets of the American population it would be more towards the median.
More digging into the demographics would be required before deciding this judge was off in the weeds, so to speak :-)
I read that Old Bush suffers from a rare form of Parkinson's and that because of it his inhibitions are lacking. However, if this is the case then why not surround him by men or old women instead of young women? Or better yet skip the photo ops.
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. We've all been warned.
Thoughts on these types of sexual assault allegations?
The reported behaviour seems to break the law. And seems to disqualify the teacher from holding a similar position of trust in the future. A prudent employer would put the teacher on administrative leave until the dust settles.
We had an almost identical situation in my village quite recently, though the sexes were reversed. It was quite a mess, I believe I linked some stories concerning it a bit earlier.
BikingLady
11-17-17, 6:33pm
Was the political world ever Simple? Or was it we were not given every detail of the daily minute but minute issues? Maybe that made life simpler?
flowerseverywhere
11-17-17, 9:01pm
50 sex partners is not that many for most people. I know men and women in that range and they aren't yet 40 years old.
For most people?
i must seriously be out of touch. Over 40 years ago I married the love of my life and would never put my marriage at risk. All of our friends are married that long or longer. I think we were so busy working, taking care of the house and raising kids I think we were too tired to do anything else. I know very few people who even got divorced, and only two of our friends even go to church. It is about fidelity and self respect, but to each his own.
I read that Old Bush suffers from a rare form of Parkinson's and that because of it his inhibitions are lacking. However, if this is the case then why not surround him by men or old women instead of young women? Or better yet skip the photo ops.
Nothing untoward happened on my watch:http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2014&stc=1
I can picture 50 partners for the late night bar population. Guys tend to exaggerate on such things, too.
catherine
11-18-17, 10:34am
For most people?
i must seriously be out of touch. Over 40 years ago I married the love of my life and would never put my marriage at risk. All of our friends are married that long or longer. I think we were so busy working, taking care of the house and raising kids I think we were too tired to do anything else. I know very few people who even got divorced, and only two of our friends even go to church. It is about fidelity and self respect, but to each his own.
Several years ago I asked my daughter, who was probably about 22-23 at the time, "Say you have a female friend who's about 28. How many partners will she have had?" And my daughter told me 10 partners. I was surprised. I knew people were much more sexually active than when I was growing up, but casual sex, as in "OK, you seem like a nice guy and we just spent 30 minutes engaged in small talk, let's have sex" is just hard for me to wrap my mind around. I accept that I'm a dinosaur, and I certainly don't judge people for their choices, but, man, I'm glad I'm not out there in the dating pool!
Zoe Girl
11-18-17, 10:38am
Wow.
Shaming the victim.
I'm sorry, if you're a female at a photo op with an ex-president in a wheelchair and you are facing the camera, and he slithers his slimy hand onto your nubile young ass, it's a bit of a situation. And the old perv in the chair knows it.
People know what they are doing, and I assume that they know when you would not be in a position to move or refuse or react. Happens all the time, and can be as simple as a grope or touch or actually set someone up for a more serious assault or rape. We are not supposed to 'fend off' as polite women in professional settings! Now that would be rude,
ToomuchStuff
11-18-17, 12:53pm
Thoughts on these types of sexual assault allegations?
http://www.simplelivingforum.net/attachment.php?attachmentid=2013&stc=1
http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/teacher-arrested-texts-reveal-relationship-student-article-1.3639757
Need bigger shirts:
http://www.tshirthell.com/funny-shirts/sex-education-tour
Didn't read anything on the "victims" age. I say that because as a willing participant I have no way of knowing how close to consenting age he was, where the difference here was she was a teacher and if this were not that type of situation, could be legal.
In my state, if he were 17 and a day and met her outside of school, sex would be legal, but they could both be charged with different child porn charges.
The more I read up on the background of Leeann Wheeden's complaint about Al Franken, the more skeptical I become. The look on the poor soldier's face says it all. http://verifiedpolitics.com/newly-released-photos-videos-just-cast-doubt-claims-al-frankens-accusers-2/
Teacher Terry
11-21-17, 6:11pm
Thanks for sharing that Jane.
iris lilies
11-21-17, 7:38pm
The more I read up on the background of Leeann Wheeden's complaint about Al Franken, the more skeptical I become. The look on the poor soldier's face says it all. http://verifiedpolitics.com/newly-released-photos-videos-just-cast-doubt-claims-al-frankens-accusers-2/
Actually, I dont think photos “say it all” at all, but our video educated populace is hooked on them.
And is this where I insert a statement about victim shaming/blaming?
Gah, who cares about any of it. It is too bad that the tramautic incidents will be drowned out by noise like
Franken accusations.
catherine
11-21-17, 7:47pm
Actually, I dont think photos “say it all” at all, but our video educated populace is hooked on them.
And is this where I insert a statement about victum shaming/blaming?
Gah, who cares about any of it. It is too bad that the tramautic incidents will be drowned out by noise like
Franken accusations.
Oh, so you don't like Al Franken? ;)
Interesting how indignation cuts across party lines. I sometimes try to defend Bill Clinton and Al Franken and DH goes ballistic, counter-defending Roy Moore and even Trump--the Grand *****-grabber of them all.
iris lilies
11-21-17, 7:57pm
Oh, so you don't like Al Franken? ;)
Interesting how indignation cuts across party lines. I sometimes try to defend Bill Clinton and Al Franken and DH goes ballistic, counter-defending Roy Moore and even Trump--the Grand *****-grabber of them all.
Wihout hearing anything other than headline news ad nauseum, I would defend Al Franken before Roy Moore based on sins and the sinnng I know. I dont have to like either one of them, and I don't.
My comment about shaming the victim is just knee jerk conversation, it is de rigueur in these discussions.
catherine
11-21-17, 8:00pm
Wihout hearing anything other tha hewdlines news ad nauseum, I woild defend Al Franken before Roy Moore. i dont have to like either one of 5em, and I dont.
Me either. Franken should have stuck to his Stuart Smalley schtick. At least he was funny then.
The more I read up on the background of Leeann Wheeden's complaint about Al Franken, the more skeptical I become. The look on the poor soldier's face says it all. http://verifiedpolitics.com/newly-released-photos-videos-just-cast-doubt-claims-al-frankens-accusers-2/
Weird - those photos do not seem to have Al Franken in them. What do they have to do with his behaviour?
JaneV2.0
11-22-17, 11:54am
Weird - those photos do not seem to have Al Franken in them. What do they have to do with his behaviour?
That was the same tour. She was photographed doing (worse than) the same thing she (and her boss, Sinclair Media) is complaining about.
Listening to women comics discussing what goes on during comedy tours (they all agreed they'd be subject to the same criticism Franken is facing) combined with the suspicious nature of Wheeden's well-timed, Sinclair-sponsored complaint, and the female cast of SNL's recent letter supporting Franken, I've concluded that she's not credible. YMMV.
Williamsmith
11-22-17, 12:40pm
So, just so I’m clear.....the author of the article is attacking the accuser based on her past behavior and supporting the Senator as a champion of women’s rights! Isn’t this like saying a victim is a whore....therefore she couldn’t have been raped! I’m thinking...that’s a step back for women’s rights.
iris lilies
11-22-17, 12:59pm
So, just so I’m clear.....the author of the article is attacking the accuser based on her past behavior and supporting the Senator as a champion of women’s rights! Isn’t this like saying a victim is a whore....therefore she couldn’t have been raped! I’m thinking...that’s a step back for women’s rights.
Yes, it has the whiff of victim blame, thats for sure. But I think that sin depends on which side of the political spectrum you are on.
Not every act is a crime. Not every woman is a victim.
Political? I'm not standing up for Harvey Weinstein, Anthony Weiner, Charlie Rose or others. There are enough real offenders on either side to condemn.
So, just so I’m clear.....the author of the article is attacking the accuser based on her past behavior and supporting the Senator as a champion of women’s rights! Isn’t this like saying a victim is a whore....therefore she couldn’t have been raped! I’m thinking...that’s a step back for women’s rights.
Yup.
Clearly she consented to be groped in the photo, while asleep, while wearing body armor. Slut.
Who are you going to believe, Al Franken apologizing for it and that leering fake-news photo, or the letter from the cast of SNL?
(And it was asked earlier....why don't women report sexual harassment/assault/rape very often... I wonder why... )
I'm going to believe the photographer who was there and took the picture.
iris lilies
11-22-17, 2:23pm
You know, Al’s buddies on SNL are doing more harm than good for my opinion on this issue. And it is nice to see that Hollywood Franken can gen up Hollywood style Public relations. kevin Spacey needs his PR guy.
Just because Franken didnt grope 32 women doesnt mean he didnt grope whats her name. Really, people.
But in theend i still dont consider his story to be very big or i portant, he is a low level groper~sex abuser.
I'm going to believe the photographer who was there and took the picture.
What did they say?
https://www.snopes.com/photographer-said-franken-image-was-staged/
Williamsmith
11-22-17, 4:08pm
Permit me to spin a quick yarn. There was a real estate agent who had indiscriminate sex with multiple partners at houses she was showing for clients. She was also married, hubby had no clue what was going on. Well, one day she reports a rape to the police. Immediately, the scoop was she had to be making it up. After all, she was a known you know what.
Whats an investigator to do....she provides a forensic artist rendering of the attacker....somebody she was showing a house to. Description of his car. Stun gun burn marks. Nothing could be substantiated. He apparently used protection. It was really looking like she’d made it up. She even took a polygraph examination and it was inconclusive.
But luckily, the investigator was diligent. Didn’t make her out to be anything but the victim and one day another attack occurred in a different county. And before you know it.....an arrest was made. This is a situation that could have gotten ugly but for the professionalism of the investigator.
Past behavior has nothing.....NOTHING to do with present circumstances.....if you want the truth.
Williamsmith
11-23-17, 8:06am
The curious case of Senatorial Groping expands for Franken. Two more accusations of butt cupping during photo op and one occurs with the suggestion of accompanying him to the bathroom. There is the suggestion that this behavior is tolerated as long as it comes from a powerful political alley. In other words, ”Franken is a perv, yes........but he’s my perv.” The people circling the wagons for Franken are going to have to throw him to the dogs eventually so they can not look like hypocrites when they go after Trump. Why else would the HuFf Post search out and print anonymous allegations like this?
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/al-franken-two-more-women-groping_us_5a15a455e4b09650540ec295
Groping women at a feminist choir performance is I guess a form of comedy for the senator?
The Wash Post published a list of allegations against Trump, by none other than Megan Kelly. Among all the popular demands for resignations, it is a mystery to me how Trump's resignation gets a low profile. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/11/22/president-trump-and-accusations-of-sexual-misconduct-the-complete-list/?utm_term=.c7456322b9a1
Williamsmith
11-23-17, 10:54am
The Wash Post published a list of allegations against Trump, by none other than Megan Kelly. Among all the popular demands for resignations, it is a mystery to me how Trump's resignation gets a low profile. https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2017/11/22/president-trump-and-accusations-of-sexual-misconduct-the-complete-list/?utm_term=.c7456322b9a1
Stay tuned...the carefully orchestrated demise of Trump requires the sacrificial lambs Franken, Hollywood, maybe even Clinton.......go first. Then, they can take down a President.
BTW, we haven’t heard from Mitt Romney in quite awhile. This seems like it’s right up his alley.
“Where everyone is above average...”
https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/11/29/garrison-keillor-says-mpr-fired-over-alleged-improper-behavior
Stay tuned...the carefully orchestrated demise of Trump requires the sacrificial lambs Franken, Hollywood, maybe even Clinton.......go first. Then, they can take down a President.
BTW, we haven’t heard from Mitt Romney in quite awhile. This seems like it’s right up his alley.
So the whole thing's a conspiracy aimed at taking down Trump? All the other prominent lechers are collateral damage to that end? And the evil Mormon genius Romney is at the bottom of it?
Sounds like one of Ms. Huckabee's conversation starters. Or perhaps a Rolling Stone investigative piece.
“Where everyone is above average...”
https://www.mprnews.org/story/2017/11/29/garrison-keillor-says-mpr-fired-over-alleged-improper-behavior
One thing is certain. There are a lot of dreadful jokes in our future.
Groping women at a feminist choir performance is I guess a form of comedy for the senator?
I would call it chutzpah.
Williamsmith
11-29-17, 8:23pm
So the whole thing's a conspiracy aimed at taking down Trump? All the other prominent lechers are collateral damage to that end? And the evil Mormon genius Romney is at the bottom of it?
Sounds like one of Ms. Huckabee's conversation starters. Or perhaps a Rolling Stone investigative piece.
Well, LDAHL, you are better than this. You expanded my statement to be all inclusive of a nation full of lechers when I specified a small subset of Franken, Hollywood and maybe Clinton. There is no conspiracy to take down Trump.....it is an outward and blatantly obvious offensive. And if I didn’t know better, I’d say you have a warm place in your heart for the Mittster whose rant about Trump being a fraud and a con man could have won best actor in a screenplay. Then he, the card carrying member of the nevertrumpers ....interviewed for a position in his White House.
But stay tuned.....CBS just turned up the heat on Trumps sexual harassment accusations just after they reported on Matt Lauers dismissal from NBC. Yes, groping is apparently an equal opportunity employer.
Well, LDAHL, you are better than this. You expanded my statement to be all inclusive of a nation full of lechers when I specified a small subset of Franken, Hollywood and maybe Clinton. There is no conspiracy to take down Trump.....it is an outward and blatantly obvious offensive. And if I didn’t know better, I’d say you have a warm place in your heart for the Mittster whose rant about Trump being a fraud and a con man could have won best actor in a screenplay. Then he, the card carrying member of the nevertrumpers ....interviewed for a position in his White House.
But stay tuned.....CBS just turned up the heat on Trumps sexual harassment accusations just after they reported on Matt Lauers dismissal from NBC. Yes, groping is apparently an equal opportunity employer.
When you talk about the sacrificial lambs necessary for the "carefully orchestrated demise" of Trump, and insinuate it may be right up Mitt's alley, what reasonable person wouldn't detect a slight aroma of conspiracy theorizing? Saying that the heat is being turned up on swinish behavior in high places as a prelude to taking down a swinish president?
I will freely admit that in comparison to Mr. Trump I would consider Mr. Romney to be a moral and intellectual giant.
While I worked for Bernie in the last election, I found myself thinking that Mitt Romney looked really good compared to Donald Trump.
JaneV2.0
11-30-17, 10:34am
While I worked for Bernie in the last election, I found myself thinking that Mitt Romney looked really good compared to Donald Trump.
That's setting the bar pretty low. I will never forget his dismissal of the opposition as the 47% who doesn't work or pay taxes. What an entitled ass. His father wasn't altogether bad, though.
I'm reading The Making of Donald Trump, by David Cay Johnston, which reports he's been a scofflaw and mob associate going back decades. It's a tragedy for our country that no one stopped him sooner. I hope Mueller's probe gets him in the end like an alien abduction.
Jane, I was sharing my opinion, and I remember being very surprised that Romney could look better than another candidate.
JaneV2.0
11-30-17, 10:46am
Jane, I was sharing my opinion, and I remember being very surprised that Romney could look better than another candidate.
I understand that, and I agree that Romney looks better than Trump--being at least capable of civilized behavior--I just can't get beyond his sneering snobbery--from a fellow Bernie supporter.
Sure, I can see that.
I saw Bernie speak in person and that man has such class.
Teacher Terry
11-30-17, 1:45pm
Tybee, I agree if it is a choice between Romney or Trump there is no contest which is sad in of itself.
I voted for Mitt in the past, and would cheerfully vote for him again. I hope I get the chance.
I think the whole snobbery image was largely a creation of the Democrats (back when they could run a competent campaign).
I could never understand how the people who keep talking about “voting your interests” could be credibly offended by the proposition that people who don’t pay taxes might be inclined to support more government spending.
I voted for Mitt in the past, and would cheerfully vote for him again. I hope I get the chance.
I think the whole snobbery image was largely a creation of the Democrats (back when they could run a competent campaign).
I could never understand how the people who keep talking about “voting your interests” could be credibly offended by the proposition that people who don’t pay taxes might be inclined to support more government spending.
Because he was characterizing the 47% of Americans who were disinclined to vote for him (incorrectly, btw) as basically a drag on society--I believe "useless eaters" is the epithet. Smacks of Leona Helmsley's "little people" remark. The vast majority of us pay taxes--many of us at a higher rates than the one percenters do.
Because he was characterizing the 47% of Americans who were disinclined to vote for him (incorrectly, btw) as basically a drag on society--I believe "useless eaters" is the epithet. Smacks of Leona Helmsley's "little people" remark. The vast majority of us pay taxes--many of us at a higher rates than the one percenters do.
I've often wondered if Romney ever uttered the phrase "useless eaters", or if it just was too appealing to pass up by the outrage machine back in those innocent days of 2012. It got used so often back then that it became a sort of cliche.
At the time, you could have made the case that the contest was between two different species of elitist. One founded a successful investment firm at 37. The other wrote his autobiography at 34. I preferred the first type.
Stay tuned...the carefully orchestrated demise of Trump requires the sacrificial lambs Franken, Hollywood, maybe even Clinton.......go first. Then, they can take down a President. BTW, we haven’t heard from Mitt Romney in quite awhile. This seems like it’s right up his alley.
I can't see it as being premeditated from the start, but I wouldn't put it past the Dems to sacrifice one or two of their own if they thought it would get Trump out of the bus. If the shoe were on the other party it would probably be much more ruthless, based on the "lock her up" rants of yore.
What I think is interesting is that the entertainment personalities seem to be fired almost immediately, but leaving the job seems optional for the politicians. At least as things stand.
Mitt Romney. Didn't he run for president one time long ago?
Mitt Romney. Didn't he run for president one time long ago?
https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/14/1e/be/141ebe290a67c7e92cdeee5df59ece70.jpg
frugalone
11-30-17, 6:40pm
OK, Garrison Keillor.
I am so bummed. And it seemed the story was kind of ridiculous, from what I've heard. Not taking sides, though.
LDAHL, Now I remember Romney:)
Remember the old ads, "I'm not a doctor but I play one on TV"?
My take is Romney was not a bigot - when governor of Massachusetts he said he would attend a gay wedding if invited - but once he developed national ambitions he decided to play the bigot, dredging up an old law with anti- miscegenation roots, that you can't marry in Massachusetts if you couldn't marry in your home state, to suppress gay marriage. He is a phony through and through.
The law he revived was put in place during the second rise of the Klan (Birth of a Nation timeframe) to keep interracial couples from marrying outside their native southern states.
Williamsmith
12-1-17, 9:55am
Not to beat up on the Mittster further but my “creepy meter” goes off when I see him, hear him and read about him. I never had the pleasure of shaking his hand but I get the feeling it wouldn’t be a firm grip. I like it to be a firm grip. My daughter introduced me to a new boyfriend in our driveway and upon shaking his hand, I turned to my daughter and said, “Get him off my property!” True story. All stupid reasons not to like the man but there you have it. Im an intolerant fool sometimes.
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