View Full Version : the homeless and the ACLU
pinkytoe
11-22-17, 11:43am
We moved to this state and city for its natural beauty. There are woods and trails everywhere. Unfortunately, just in the year we've been here, many are being populated by the homeless setting up camps, starting fires, pooping in the woods, doing drugs etc. It no longer feels safe to take a hike on these city trails and the trash they leave is unbelievable. When citizens try to band together to clean up the mess, it is all back again within weeks. If any attempts to enforce their illegal activities are made, the ACLU gets involved and says their rights are bing infringed upon. So nothing changes. I know this is a huge societal problem but wondering how to balance the issue. It does not seem just for those of us who pay taxes and follow the rules to have to tolerate lawlessness. Thoughts?
iris lilies
11-22-17, 12:04pm
Having lived with this issue for decades, there is no permenant fix.
First of all, in your framing of the problem, you have to be politically correct and remove from your speech any coupling of “homeless” and “lawlessness.” Correct-think centers on the activities that are unacceptable and not the lack of permanent residence of the perpetrators. The central idea is that homelessness does not equal lawlessness.
Ok, Now that you are educated, hahaha,....
It is a never ending job for the cops, the social workers, the gubmnt officials to address these issues. It is permanent employment for them.
In downtown St. Louis we were finally successful, after 35 years of fighting, to get a very large men’s shelter closed down. Yes the ACLU were active in watching and targeting all efforts to combat it and the management was savvy in parading homeless men out and about during extreme weather conditions to ring sttention. I dont even get mad at the people who create disturbances,
I save my wrath for the do gooder feeding efforts by churches. They bring their vans in from nice safe suburbs, distribute food, and drive off to their nice safe suburban homes, leaving trash and mess for us here in the city.
I have a little more patience and respect for the city chirches that offer food for anyone, not nexssarily homeless. I picked up two perfectly fine lunches in bags from the street a few weeks ago, tossed by recipients, distributed that day. We ate them.
I have picked up a few items from the street that I still use, notably a bedspread —cotton! —that is currently on our bed. Street people are very casual with the doo gooder items given to them. All of those knitted blankets and carefully laundered coverlets and etc are here today, gone tomorrow with them.
JaneV2.0
11-22-17, 12:29pm
I have the greatest respect for the good the ACLU does, but the homelessness problem in major cities is way out of control.
Seattle made some apartments available to homeless alcoholics, with the result that they cut their drinking by %25. I think it was cost-effective, considering what people "sleeping rough" incur.
On the positive side, the population of substance abusers and mentally ill people camping in our cities does provide law enforcement with a good percentage of its business.
pinkytoe
11-22-17, 12:54pm
Perhaps the word homeless is no longer accurate. For most that I see, their "home" is a tent by choice. I get that if you can't/won't find work then you can't pay for a roof so you end up in a tent. It's a systemic issue but having to deal with feces and needles to get outdoors is just not right. We also have issues with said population committing petty crimes so there is that too. Breaking into cars, stealing...
BikingLady
11-22-17, 1:05pm
I understand it is a country wide problem. I understand not all can get the help needed, that NOT everyone wants help. I feel for those that really do want and need help. Having said that.....
My city of about 20,000 has a terrible homeless problem. It is in the paper weekly, three dead this year outside. Last week a poor soul who at once was someones beloved child, dead in the river. Paper stated Homeless man. This was new to me when I moved here 8 years ago It was all new to me.I remember thinking the fellow I saw with a back pack on my trail was a hiker or college student. I now know better. We have so many free food places and shelters and now the city pool is being turned into the winter shelter since the club house is not used and it is across the street from the YMCA where the free showers are. We had a homeless camp but that was shut. SO it spread out.
We now have blessing booths scattered around the area and in the township along the rails to trails. This is far from the city, but since we have a re-cyce bike that gives bikes to those in needs I assume it is used, though I have only seen people pull up in cars and shop.
OK I donate to the Men's shelter/clean house I have a spot in my heart for this, so I am not a cold person. Having said that and feel free to beat me with a noodle, The homeless is just getting bigger here. The help wanted signs are everywhere and as my husband knows first hand the positions can not be filled.
My son said it best the other day that he has been down on his luck as he will say openly (during the addiction years) (6 years clean!!)He said if someone can ride a bike around town for 8 hours a day and collect bottles, beg in front of the grocery store, then go for free food, they are strong enough to work.
I have almost lost my sympathy as my trail I ride, run, walk is full near the areas of the handouts. The Pool now shelter for winter I mentioned, is on the trail and I have stopped riding there as one Sunday I have to zig zag around one sleeping on trail, two sitting. This is not because my nose is in the air. It is safety!
I do not have the answer. I just can not understand why it grows when the shelters and donations just grow.
Teacher Terry
11-22-17, 1:40pm
We are having the same problem in our city. WE now live in town and it is affecting a park and down by our river. However, we do not have enough shelters and shelters are only a temporary solution. We need to build tiny housing communities and provide services to help people address their issues. Someone that is picking up bottles all day may have a mental illness that prevents them from being on time, take directions from a supervisor, etc. Not everyone knows how to be a worker and have issues that get in the way. MI people have issues getting along with others that make working difficult. On Nextdoor neighbor someone wrote a hateful email saying he forgot to lock his truck and lost $500 worth of tools. He is of course blaming the homeless and hopes they all freeze to death. IL: once the shelter was closed was anything provided in it's place? A local group here feeds them every Wed and has a ton of volunteers that cook a good meal at home and then bring it to them to serve. I have been there and people stay and eat and the volunteers mingle and talk to the homeless people which is good to start seeing them as people instead of problems. Nothing gets thrown away. Sometimes when we are downtown I bring half of my meal home and have had various people ask me for it because they are hungry. They are not asking for $. One day we were in a casino and I had my leftovers and a guy asked for them. He sat at a table next to us and we talked while he ate. He was hungry. He was in the casino to warm up as it was winter. I gave him some tips on how to go about getting services. One time while walking my dog in a park I met a young homeless guy and he was intelligent but down on his luck. He wanted a job so I gave him the address of a place that could help him. Just then my adult son came up as he was walking there too (it is a really big park) and he stayed until I left. Later he gave me hell for talking to a homeless guy. Ugh!
catherine
11-22-17, 1:56pm
Perhaps the word homeless is no longer accurate. For most that I see, their "home" is a tent by choice.
Yes, that's true for many. We have a friend who spent a long time homeless, but in fact he had his own "Matt Foley/Chris Farley" residence, in a tent "down by the river" (the Raritan River, in this case). There were several in this tent community. I asked him why they don't go to shelters, and he said that the homeless typically hate the shelters. Maybe because they have to abide by certain rules, maybe because theft is more rampant, maybe it's noisy and impersonal. I don't know.
I have another friend who helps us with simple tasks now and then. He was just over helping my BIL move his stuff into a POD. He's homeless. We paid him for a couple of hours work. The next day his friend called us to say that he was in the hospital with a heart attack. My first thought was, OMG--he was lugging all that heavy furniture--it's all our fault!
Wound up it was our fault, but not because he was having a heart attack from heavy lifting. He had taken the money we gave him, bought cocaine, and had coke-related reaction that sent him to the hospital. Not judging. I love the guy, but some people are their own worst enemies.
But yes, if there are homeless people coking up in public areas, it makes it very hard on the citizens. I don't know the answer. I've often had an idea of fields of Japanese-style pods where the homeless could lock themselves in to their own little 8x4x4 space and they're happy, and the surrounding people are happy.
iris lilies
11-22-17, 2:27pm
Yes, that's true for many. We have a friend who spent a long time homeless, but in fact he had his own "Matt Foley/Chris Farley" residence, in a tent "down by the river" (the Raritan River, in this case). There were several in this tent community. I asked him why they don't go to shelters, and he said that the homeless typically hate the shelters. Maybe because they have to abide by certain rules, maybe because theft is more rampant, maybe it's noisy and impersonal. I don't know.
I have another friend who helps us with simple tasks now and then. He was just over helping my BIL move his stuff into a POD. He's homeless. We paid him for a couple of hours work. The next day his friend called us to say that he was in the hospital with a heart attack. My first thought was, OMG--he was lugging all that heavy furniture--it's all our fault!
Wound up it was our fault, but not because he was having a heart attack from heavy lifting. He had taken the money we gave him, bought cocaine, and had coke-related reaction that sent him to the hospital. Not judging. I love the guy, but some people are their own worst enemies.
But yes, if there are homeless people coking up in public areas, it makes it very hard on the citizens. I don't know the answer. I've often had an idea of fields of Japanese-style pods where the homeless could lock themselves in to their own little 8x4x4 space and they're happy, and the surrounding people are happy.
Better yet, feed them unlimited supplies of drugs. Would be cheaper than what we now do.
sweetana3
11-22-17, 2:44pm
I have heard from a number of employers both large and small that they cannot get workers who can pass a drug test. Big big issue. These are not high tech jobs but a clean drug test is still a requirement.
I wish we made methadone or other drug treatment more easily available. But the NIMBY would not want the clinics around and they are needed in cities and in rural areas. We also need to stop restricting a doctor's ability to treat more than the small number they allow right now. I know it is because of the abusive clinics but surely careful electronic recordkeeping could help. There have been so many clinical trials showing it works. Not 100% but nothing is perfect.
Note that here in IN a jail in NE Indiana had to treat 11 employees for fentanyl exposure in one incident and you just don't dose without symptoms. It is such a big problem. My husband even asked me why they did not use dogs more for fentanyl searching and I told him I thought it was just as dangerous to the dogs as well as the handlers.
Teacher Terry, Isn't recreational cannabis recently legal in Nevada? If so, you will probably get some of our transients heading west for warmer weather. I've always wondered if there is some sort of grapevine for these folks as they seem to congregate in certain places and not so much others.
If any attempts to enforce their illegal activities are made, the ACLU gets involved and says their rights are bing infringed upon.
I'd encourage you to read the court cases...
If a homeless person commits an act of violence, or crime against property, or similar things, the ACLU doesn't wave some magic wand and get them off the hook for "rights".
The ACLU does get involved in cases in which unconstitutionally vague laws against vagrancy are involved.
Very different things.
It's not against the law to be homeless, or poor.
Teacher Terry
11-22-17, 3:01pm
Yes pot is legal here. If people do come they will probably go to Vegas where it is warm. HOmeless people are not the pot smokers. You would be shocked the normal people that have good jobs etc that smoke pot. I know I was. Yes we need drug treatment. We are not using our resources wisely. We spend a ton on the military while we have no place for the homeless to go. Shelters are overcrowded and dangerous places. People get robbed and beat up. YOu sleep in a big room right next to a ton of other people. In our overfill shelters when the others are full and it is cold they don't take people there until 10 pm and then wake them up at 4 am to leave. Not a lot of sleep. Some people won't give up their pets and can't go into a shelter. As a country we should be a shamed of ourselves for allowing this to happen. But instead the heartless souls on Capital Hill will give the wealthy big tax breaks so they can become richer while people freeze to death.
The drug problem among the homeless seems mostly to involve meth, alcohol, and heroin, with opioids thrown in. Marijuana has been legal here for several years, and is widely used (especially among my fellow geezers) with no apparent rise in crime. As far as drug screens go, employers should go to a basic test of cognition and reflexes (I think the ACLU proposed one) that would identify impaired workers without invasion of their persons.
I imagine people seek out areas with mild climates and more humane vagrancy laws.
ApatheticNoMore
11-22-17, 4:22pm
About 25% of the homeless have jobs. Jobs are not a guarantee of making rent. 1 in 10 Cal State college students is homeless (so much for the drug users who don't want to work - why are people going to college, because they don't want to work? Other than that one forever student we have all known, not likely. I only hope these students manage to live in vans or trucks or cars and not sleep on the streets but I don't know their situation). Several million children are homeless in this country. Yes of course many of the homeless are addicted. But every time housing costs go up more join the ranks of the homeless as well.
Who has a high risk of homelessness? Drug addicts and mentally ill people? Likely so. But also veterans, disproportionately so, compared to the % of people in the population overall that serve in the armed forces. They don't tell you that in the army recruiting posters I guess. Foster kids, foster kids have disproportionate rates of homelessness when they grow up, these kids that never even had a families but likely bounced around the foster care system, and don't get much help making it in adulthood either.
It's not against the law to be homeless
This we know but it is against the law to camp in city parks or on trails; defecate in public places; use illegal drugs, etc. The ACLU gets involved when the transients are "arrested" for doing these things and cannot pay the fee and get stuck in jail for a week. It is a merry go round.
This we know but it is against the law to camp in city parks or on trails; defecate in public places; use illegal drugs, etc. The ACLU gets involved when the transients are "arrested" for doing these things and cannot pay the fee and get stuck in jail for a week. It is a merry go round.
Can you provide some case citations?
It isn't always against the law to camp in city parks; it depends on the jurisdiction. The ACLU gets involved whenever anyone's rights are threatened.
This thread reminds me to pungle up some money for the ACLU, who has everyone's Consitutional rights in mind, all the time. We'd be in even more danger than we currently are without it.
sweetana3
11-22-17, 4:45pm
Everyone should read Nickel and Dimed about those one paycheck from homelessness. 20 years old and nothing has changed. For my middle class mind, it was an eye opener. Very hardworking people can have everything stacked against them.
It, homelessness, is also very much a spectrum. Voluntary, temporary, permanent, situational, illness, etc. I live in an urban area with a huge variety of housing from temporary night shelters, half way houses, domestic violence shelters, and fully transitional housing. We have our permanent and temporary meal handouts. Occasional problems with trash but most often with the temporary give away locations without an adequate trash container supply.
Even with what is available, we have tent camps and the problems those create. We also have some who sleep in doorways and under interstate ramps downtown. The police patrol with trained counselors who know what help is available (we even have a group to help with the pets). It is still a very intractable issue.
Chicken lady
11-22-17, 4:51pm
I have been temporarily homeless.
i have left objectionable waste shallowly buried not too far from a park trail because while the park was “open” the facilities were not and I was kinda short on options.
how long do you think you would hang on to a nice warm quilt if you had no access to laundry facilities and had to carry everything around with you wherever you went?
Can you provide some case citations?
Google Colorado Springs, homeless, ACLU and you will find more than one ACLU suit - the latest regards a $55 court fee against a meth addict with a newborn and three children.
Google Colorado Springs, homeless, ACLU and you will find more than one ACLU suit - the latest regards a $55 court fee against a meth addict with a newborn and three children.
I am familiar with the Colorado Springs cases. I went to high school in Colorado Springs, met my wife there, and we still own a nice home in Colorado Springs, and just got back from there in fact. The situation is a bit more nuanced...
Colorado Springs has a huge, and growing, homeless population. However, the Colorado Springs police and prosecutors have been violating constitutional due process guidelines. The ACLU gets involved in that side of things, yes - but look to the detaisl - they weren't defending the homeless person's right to do drugs in public parks...
Colorado in general, and Colorado Springs and Denver in particular, needs to look carefully at the constitution before trying to make homelessness a crime. As both cities have found out over and over. (Gosh, look, Denver lost *again* just last month: https://acluco-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/2017-10-25-ORDER-RE_-Appeal-of-County-Courts-Dismissal-2.pdf )
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2016/05/05/476874262/colorado-springs-will-stop-jailing-people-too-poor-to-pay-court-fines
I suppose it riles me more than it should since I have not experienced the presence of transient folk in such numbers until now. Whole lot of things I didn't know until I moved here and am still trying to understand.
Teacher Terry
11-22-17, 7:04pm
So Texas doesn't have a homeless problem or they just shoot them? Rents are rising rapidly here also and is going to make more working people homeless. Beisies that developers are buying up the crappy weekly motels where many poor working people live and put up expensive condos and apartments. Where should those people go?
BikingLady
11-22-17, 7:08pm
I do not believe our area is due to rising rent. I understand other areas that is the reason. This area has so many low income housing options.
Austin did not have a very visible problem except in certain downtown areas near the shelter. They also have things like well-funded homeless villages (tiny homes) too but only for those who want to follow rules. I don't think it's a terribly popular place to land for whatever reason. This is a problem that really nags at me since I want to understand how and why it got so large and how it can be ameliorated. I am thinking multiple causes - 2008 recession, the rise of investors/flippers (house values going up), changing job economy and loss of societal values. It makes me sad/mad to see aimless, young people roaming up and down the streets with backpacks, sleeping on top of store roofs or in the alleys. Not mad at them - just mad at the situation.
So Texas doesn't have a homeless problem or they just shoot them?
Don't say that too loudly. That's what Trump's pal Dutarte does, and has been done also in the favelas in Brazil.
I believe the opioid epidemic is a major factor. I have spoken with parents of addicts who say jail, homelessness, friends and siblings ODing all have no impact. In many cases there doesn't seem to be a bottom to be hit besides death.
catherine
11-22-17, 8:25pm
I believe the opioid epidemic is a major factor. I have spoken with parents of addicts who say jail, homelessness, friends and siblings ODing all have no impact. In many cases there doesn't seem to be a bottom to be hit besides death.
What a tragedy.
We have two methadone clinics and people are moving here from some distance away to access them. They struggle find accommodation in an area with a limited supply, unable to drive so congregate in the small downtowns. People avoid the downtowns and the local merchants are losing business and closing; those remaining are trying to revive the downtown and decrease the empty store fronts.
I'm actually very impressed with what my mother's town, mid atlantic community of about 20K people, has been doing. The churches take turns hosting the homeless, helping them get to jobs or job-finding, feeding them and providing cot-type accommodations for a week. I don't know all the specifics, but it seems to me that this whole-package approach is truly trying to address the needs of people who want a better life, while lightening the admittedly unpleasant load on the community as a whole.
In Tucson, there are definitely places where the line is pushed thin between compassion and annoyance. I want to participate in an answer, but I don't want to be approached by t.c inhabitants looking for butt money every time I stop for gas.
BikingLady
11-23-17, 6:21am
Yes the bottom hits and hopefully before death. Having been the parent, you can take shoes and coats away in the frozen with and the addict will still walk out the door. :( Bottom is not behind dumpster sleeping in vomit and filth, sometimes it can be in the home in the kitchen. I used to think everyone wants help, some just do not and that is the truth. Hard to accept.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.