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Interesting NYT discussion of universal basic income experiments:
https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/15/business/dealbook/universal-basic-income.html
flowerseverywhere
11-27-17, 1:10am
Interesting Article. In the Stockton California the example was 500 per month. Not exactly earth shattering. And I think in this currrent republican Congress and presidency a snowball has a way better chance in hell than UBI. And I think work gives a sense of self worth and purpose, whether it is for a salary or for the betterment of the community.
I think the exact opposite of what they are doing now will be the answer to economic woes. Such as :
First, unlimited access to birth control and abortion for free. Every state, every county.
Tax churches and all their property.
Control political donations so our representatives in Washington vote for their constituents, not their donors interest.
catherine
11-27-17, 3:21am
I think the UBI is a very interesting idea--but then again, I think all alternatives or at least "tweaks" to capitalism are interesting to think about.
And I think work gives a sense of self worth and purpose, whether it is for a salary or for the betterment of the community.
The idea of UBI is not to discourage work--as it said in the article, it's simply to provide a safety net that actually supports business owners as well as their employees.
I personally feel that small, local governments run as cooperatives hold a lot of promise.
There's a town in Spain (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/mar/07/mondragon-spains-giant-cooperative) that's described as a "utopia"--the people work cooperatively in mostly one business.
And, just tonight on 60 Minutes there was a segment on the island of Eigg (https://www.cbsnews.com/news/60-minutes-adventure-to-the-isle-of-eigg/) in Scotland, previously owned by a lord who was not popular with the 67 townspeople, and he left. The whole town was able to then raise money to collectively buy the island. It works extremely well.
But getting back to the UBI, I do agree that there's a snowball's chance in hell of the universal basic income gaining any traction at all unless 3/4s of the population drank Bernie Sanders' KoolAid. And even so.. it does seem that the math would not add up with our current budget, population, and higher priorities like maintaining a very expensive military.
There may come a time when unemployment is high and wages are generally low due to job automation or other reasons, and then it might make sense. For the time being it seems like there are plenty of jobs for those trained, and willing and able to work. It makes more sense to me to put the trillions of dollars into job training, education, and public works programs. At least in my area there are plenty of jobs for electricians, instrument technicians, and other trades. There are not enough trained people. I've always liked the concept of the Civilian Conservation Core for infrastructure and and other public works projects, although it would need updating to work.
I'd say universal health care first, then maybe a universal income some day.
flowerseverywhere
11-27-17, 9:40am
There may come a time when unemployment is high and wages are generally low due to job automation or other reasons, and then it might make sense. For the time being it seems like there are plenty of jobs for those trained, and willing and able to work. It makes more sense to me to put the trillions of dollars into job training, education, and public works programs. At least in my area there are plenty of jobs for electricians, instrument technicians, and other trades. There are not enough trained people. I've always liked the concept of the Civilian Conservation Core for infrastructure and and other public works projects, although it would need updating to work.
I'd say universal health care first, then maybe a universal income some day.
i love the CCC. In our national park travels, we have seen much of their lasting and beautiful work. Back then they were allowed to keep a small amount of their pay, but most was sent home. The all male camps were made up of young men who worked hard. Perhaps some of our military could be diverted to this cause instead of being ordered to make more orphans and widows around the world.
I think the idea has some merit in theory; but in practice it's hard to see how governments would resist the urge to regulate people's actions rather than just cut a check once a month.
I have a hard time imagining a universal basic income in a country where legislators have a hard time with doling out things like WIC and SNAP.
ApatheticNoMore
11-27-17, 12:50pm
Basic income probably will eventually happen somewhere and I look forward to seeing the results, but probably somewhere like Switzerland or the Netherlands. It's more needed in the U.S. perhaps as there might be greater degrees of desperation, however it's also more likely to be 1) a bad implementation in the U.S. as actually helping people is pretty much never the goal of legislation here 2) see the money too easily eaten up in increasing costs in the U.S. (like healthcare costs). But this doesn't mean I think it will do zero good in the U.S. in some situations of desperation it will do good. It just won't do as much good as people think it will across the board.
Because in the U.S. they have a hard time even continuing to fund Social Security and Medicare for the older folks even though they are very popular (they keep trying to sneak stealth cuts in now AND under Obama). Even older retired folks barely get enough of a basic income now (less than most places) and I fear there will be almost nothing left in the future. And the U.S. is a country without a particularly viable healthcare system ... so anyone who wants to have any sort of healthcare coverage will probably just see all their basic income money go to that.
However there are levels of desperation for a *healthy* (not an already very sick) person far beyond worrying about whether or not one has healthcare coverage in case they get sick. If you are stuck in a coal town being poisoned by coal dust and having to make a choice to blow up mountains to survive or not, some money would go a long way. If you are homeless college student living in your car and trying to put yourself through college some money would go a long way (although it may be available now via student loans to some degree but surely only at the cost of debt). Actually if you are any type of homeless money would help although ever increasing housing costs would still be a very real problem. There are situations of frank and utter desperation in this country that even a little money would help.
Interesting income about basic income and finland:
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/jan/03/finland-trials-basic-income-for-unemployed
Teacher Terry
11-27-17, 1:43pm
Flowers: you have some great ideas. If a basic income is going to replace SS it won't work because many older people rely on that alone and they have earned more then 500/month and can't survive on it. Men control women by not having free birth control, abortions etc and they are not about to give up that control. My Mom used to say that if men got pregnant abortion would be a god given right.
I remember a bumper sticker that said, "If men got pregnant, Abortion would be a sacrament!" It's disgusting that we are still fighting this battle.
ApatheticNoMore
11-27-17, 2:45pm
I remember a bumper sticker that said, "If men got pregnant, Abortion would be a sacrament!"
as would welfare, the original AFDC welfare. I mean although some men also end up in that difficult role, it almost takes a woman to imagine what it would be like to support a kid alone given the instability of jobs etc.. No it's never ideal (and abortion is one choice as well) but life happens.
The problem may be that U.S. policy is far too heavily controlled by fundamentalist (maybe evangelical) Christians, far more of the population than they actually represent. And it's almost like the U.S. government was controlled by the Amish (no technology for you) or the Christian Scientists (no medicine) and suddenly everyone else had to live by those rules. I have no problem with them living by their rules of course, but it would be ridiculous to apply it broadly and it really is that ridiculous.
According to a PEW poll, men and women seem similar on the abortion issue?
http://www.pewforum.org/fact-sheet/public-opinion-on-abortion/
It's interesting that so many self-avowed religious believers are opposed to abortion, assuming that one of the tenets of most faiths is the existence of an immortal soul. So if the fetus should die in utero for whatever reason, wouldn't it just wait for another opportunity?
It's interesting that so many self-avowed religious believers are opposed to abortion, assuming that one of the tenets of most faiths is the existence of an immortal soul. So if the fetus should die in utero for whatever reason, wouldn't it just wait for another opportunity?
I don’t know of many faiths that offer a Universal Basic Incarnation.
catherine
11-27-17, 4:54pm
I don’t know of many faiths that offer a Universal Basic Incarnation.
lol, LDAHL. :)
Would the Universal Basic Incarnation be the no-frills version?
You'd think dogma would cover these things...
Would the Universal Basic Incarnation be the no-frills version?
You'd think dogma would cover these things...
I could certainly see the moral convenience of assuming that someone killed six months before being born could simply catch the next bus. You might even extend that logic to killing someone six months after being born. Or perhaps souls driving around in faulty vehicles might be eligible for a cosmic cash for clunkers program.
"Cash for clunkers" Ha! I'm not nuts about my "faulty vehicle," but I guess you could consider it karma. Next life, I'd like a Tesla, or maybe a Subaru.
Killing a six-month old is murder, as it is capable of living outside a woman's body. Pretty elementary, I would think. (I'm not a Singer acolyte.) But you make a case for free, universal, birth control.
Would that logic apply to killing someone incapable of living outside the ICU? For that matter, even an air-breathing infant is still awfully dependent. I don't think any of this stuff regarding who can and can't be dehumanized is reducible to "elementary".
These quality of (post-birth) life arguments will always be contentious--and mostly unresolved.
These quality of (post-birth) life arguments will always be contentious--and mostly unresolved.
True. That's why I'm inclined to err on the side of life.
Teacher Terry
11-29-17, 4:17pm
You can err on what ever side you want if you are the one having the baby. Ultimately it is a woman's decision.
You can err on what ever side you want if you are the one having the baby. Ultimately it is a woman's decision.
Every life taken involves a decision on somebody's part.
Every life taken involves a decision on somebody's part.But never the victim.
Teacher Terry
11-29-17, 6:45pm
-That is one reason we need free birth control. It would reduce abortions. Women would still get raped and may choose to have one. I had a good friend get raped at 44 after her 3 kids were grown and ended up pregnant with twins. She never thought she would have an abortion but she did. Late term abortions bother me greatly unless the mother's life is in danger but again not my decision to make.
Free birth control.
How expensive *is* birth control these days? I’ve been laying out the $$$ for birth control for 40 years now, and never really noticed that there was a high expense.
I always wonder about the IVF babies being created in a lab. Do they have souls?
Teacher Terry
11-29-17, 7:38pm
+-If you are struggling to put food on the table for your kids because you have a low paying job it is important.
+-If you are struggling to put food on the table for your kids because you have a low paying job it is important.
So, how much $ are we talking here?
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