View Full Version : Matt Lauer is out now too.........
This is unbelievable. I'm sure there is a lot of sexual abuse/harassment going on out there, but I think there are different degrees of it, and I hate to see people judged too quickly and lose their life-long profession. It seems to all be snowballing. Maybe it will come out what Mr. Lauer did, but I hope it's not something small that happened 30 years ago........
This is so difficult to sort out.
This is unbelievable. I'm sure there is a lot of sexual abuse/harassment going on out there, but I think there are different degrees of it, and I hate to see people judged too quickly and lose their life-long profession. It seems to all be snowballing. Maybe it will come out what Mr. Lauer did, but I hope it's not something small that happened 30 years ago........
This is so difficult to sort out.
Cathy, check out the announcement here by Savannah Guthrie and Hoda Hotb on the video at this site, if you did not view it (I did not);
https://hotair.com/archives/2017/11/29/boom-matt-lauer-fired-nbc-sexual-harassment-claim/
I think it very gracefully expresses what they are feeling and is balanced and fair. You might take some comfort in it.
The article also quotes a Tweet by a reporter named Yashar Ali:
https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/654406754164346884/mofw7nin_normal.jpg Yashar Ali https://abs.twimg.com/emoji/v2/72x72/1f418.png
✔ @yashar
I, and other reporters , have been aware of several women who have come forward privately in the past few months ...even before Weinstein. They weren’t willing to go public though...they were terrified of Matt. https://twitter.com/ap/status/935847499650215938 … (https://t.co/jR3VV1AWGt)
7:29 AM - Nov 29, 2017 (https://twitter.com/yashar/status/935848078506160128)
That does not sound like a small thing from 30 years ago.
Interesting that NBC acted so quickly. It implies that the climate is changing on this kind of sexual harassment is changing in the workplace. Thank God for that.
catherine
11-29-17, 10:36am
Well, it seems sort of like a witch hunt at this point, but I think it's a very good thing if, going forward, it makes people think twice before misusing their power and authority.
SteveinMN
11-29-17, 10:40am
I read an interesting article (https://www.nytimes.com/2017/11/24/arts/charlie-rose-kevin-spacey-louis-ck-art.html?_r=0) this past week about how the rush to judgement of those accused of sexual impropriety is punishing not only the (accused) perpetrators but sometimes many other people as well -- most of whom do not deserve such a severe punishment by innocent association.
Aside from the questions of what constitutes sexual impropriety (a highly-subjective interpretation in some instances) and whether the evidence should allow judgement without some sort of trial, making the accused perpetrator's work disappear affects many more people than just the "perp".
For instance, Kevin Spacey does not set up a camera on a tripod, rig a couple of lights, and then hold forth on a stage for an hour to create "House of Cards". Dozens of people -- actors, directors, technicians, property masters, makeup artists, accountants, etc., are involved. Making HoC disappear from the schedule and things like rebroadcast affects paychecks, residuals payments, and the (future) visibility of the work these people did. They are being punished for Spacey's accused impropriety.
Correspondingly, while the accusations against Al Franken are disappointing (at best), is forcing his resignation from the Senate good for national action on women's issues given Franken's positive legislative track record on those issues? Reaching further and using a different example of discrimination, the classical composer Wagner was famously anti-Semitic. Yet albums of Wagner's works are not repressed and his name never found on classical concert programs. His work survives and is celebrated despite his view of what he thought was okay to do to other people.
Now, before anything gets quoted out of context, let me state that I believe no one has the right to engage anyone else in sexual behavior in which the target does not want to participate. Rape, forcibly French-kissing someone, answering the door in a towel (or less) -- all of that clearly is inappropriate behavior even if the person doing it thinks the target of the behavior is interested or at the very least tolerant/compliant/submissive. Then there are the cases built around ages of consent. Even if not every instance of abuse outlined in recent weeks is 100% accurate, I believe plenty of it goes on. I fully understand that many are on the receiving end of a lot of attention they'd rather not be getting simply because they're a potential target of sexual interest.
The article raised a couple of very good points about how the current atmosphere may well serve as a watershed moment announcing that sexual predation will no longer be tolerated but that the current response of disappearing the perpetrator's body of work hurts far more than the perpetrator. The remedy lies in the future and in protecting the body of work while making it clear predatory behavior is unacceptable.
Well said, SteveinMN. Thanks for the links, Tybee.
I think the reason this does not feel like a witch hunt to me is that these are allegations that women (and men) have been afraid to bring forth, as the system was definitely stacked against them, and they would not work again.
So now that people are starting to come forth, this brings other people out who have been afraid to speak out, for fear of losing their jobs.
Zoe Girl
11-29-17, 11:53am
I think the reason this does not feel like a witch hunt to me is that these are allegations that women (and men) have been afraid to bring forth, as the system was definitely stacked against them, and they would not work again.
So now that people are starting to come forth, this brings other people out who have been afraid to speak out, for fear of losing their jobs.
I agree, I am just encouraged that it seems the sexual history, mental stability and entire lifestyle is not being examined for everyone who had the courage to come forward.
I am discouraged that it seems to be 'coming out of nowhere' for so many people. Doesn't seem like that to me, if you figure that something like 1 in 4 women has been sexually assaulted, and then you figure out how many women friends I have had over the years, and then you figure that people tend to tell me things they don't tell others, I have heard a lot of stories for a very long time. I know the story of my mother, but not from my grandmother or aunts. I even have my male friends tell me their assault stories, not as many but still happens.
I am realizing what it means that so many people are distressed, that means they are hearing the stories many of us know well and it is distressing! I have some interesting responses to realizing that this has an emotional toll, like it would be okay if I was distressed or something?
I wish they would come out and exactly say what these perpetrators did. I'm not denying that some awful/unfair/horrible stuff happens to women, and it should in no way ever be tolerated.
I'm just afraid that this snowball might catch some people who did so much less than others did. And I do have concerns that every woman's interpretation of what happens to her can be widely varied.
Like I said in the other thread about this recent sexual harassment stuff, I do worry that some not-so-guilty people will have their professions and lives ruined. And I wonder how many women, in retrospect, might join in and say "Oh yea.....he abused me too".....when maybe he just squeezed their arm and winked.
I am in NO WAY siding with the accused. I'm just saying, let's take it slow and make sure we are all hearing and interpreting things correctly.
What I wonder about is, have people who worked closely with Charlie Rose and Matt Lauer (women), .....have they ever suspected anything like this?
I did see part of the statement by Savannah Guthie and she seemed totally shocked, as did Gayle King and Nora O'Donnell regarding Charlie Rose. Maybe these men only picked on women lower down in the food chain?
I also hope that the mindset of the National news stations isn't only about optics and they are only thinking of the viewers they would lose if they kept the accused on, until the facts were truly confirmed.
What a mess.
Well, it seems sort of like a witch hunt at this point, but I think it's a very good thing if, going forward, it makes people think twice before misusing their power and authority.
It might appear like a witch hunt, due to the volume of accusers. But I did a quick mental count of the men in power who had made inappropriate sexual advances to me when I was young (12-25) and unable/unaware of how to shut them down and the number was 8. This doesn't count small things like the adult male neighbors who used to flirt and make suggestive comments and gestures when I was in elementary school. I started with the old man who came out in a bathrobe and told me he was naked under his robe and was about to go in his jacuzzi and invited me to join him. I was 12 years old and at this man's house as translator for my dad who was giving him an estimate for a job he wanted done at his house. My dad didn't speak any English, so had no idea of what was going on. However, I was keenly aware of the impact that my reaction would have on my dad's chances of getting a much needed job. And so did the man making the advances. I remember feeling disgusted, confused, powerless, scared and angry.
The second time, I was 14 and a high school freshman. My art teacher was very cool, we all liked him a great deal. One day we were walking outside after class and he told me that he would very much like to have a sexual relationship with me. He asked me if I would be willing to do it. I was speechless. And very confused. We had just met his much younger, and gorgeous, wife in class. Why would he need to cheat on her?? And I had thought he was so cool. But he was a creep. I didn't know what to do. How could I keep going to class everyday?
I'm an ordinary woman, nothing special, so yes, I believe all these women. This behavior is so common. And women don't normally talk about it or speak out when this happens because we are scared, humiliated, and confused. At first the incidents are shocking, and then they just become a part of what it means to be a female in a male-dominated world. But always, we feel powerless to do anything about it.
I asked DH how many times this sort of thing had happened to him, and he said never. Different life experience. But that doesn't make my experiences any less valid. That's why I never, ever, pretend to know what it feels like to be black in our country.
Wow Geila......so sorry for those things that happened to you. :(
And now it looks like a really sad day in Lake Pants B-Gone, Garrison Keillor says he has been fired by Minnesota Public Radio for "inappropriate behavior".
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/11/29/567241644/garrison-keillor-accused-of-inappropriate-behavior-minnesota-public-radio-says
Being civilized is just too hard for some.
There's more than a whiff of hysteria about all this. First, it seems to me there's been a loss of any sense of proportion. There are several orders of magnitude difference between what Al Franken did and what Roy Moore is (very credibly) accused of doing. Second, I always get uncomfortable when the language used to describe events starts to get so murky you feel like you don't really know what the hell actually happened. The term "sexual assault" has become so watered down as to be meaningless. It's now used to refer to anything forcible rape to some drunk guy grabbing a woman's butt in a bar. Neither is permissible behavior, but one is a very serious crime, while the other is obnoxious behavior whose seriousness may be somewhat mitigated by context.
Obviously, nobody -- not just women -- should be subject to unwillingly having hands laid on them. The aforementioned butt-grabbing is a crime, and it should be. But it's not rape. Real sexual assault is a serious crime that should be investigated by police and prosecuted in a court of law. Taking shortcuts around due process seldom ends well in the long run.
Another odd thought of mine - Males chasing multiple females has been going on for eons since we are wired biologically to further our species. Problem is that old behavior is no longer appropriate in a modern "thinking" culture so females are putting their foot down and saying "enough." Perhaps it will bring on an evolutionary change where the thinking brain really does supersede the biological urge that some seem so unable to control. And now, Garrison Keilor? Huh?
Pinkytoe, I've been wanting to bring that topic up for awhile. Being "civilized" means we try to distance ourselves as much as possible from our animalistic wiring. We do all sorts of things, make all sorts of rules to NOT have what seems to me to be hard-wired instinctual tendencies. I'm not sure what it all means, in terms of evolution though. I'm sure that this male behavior goes on constantly around the world all the time. But the U.S. seems to be trying to win the most civilized award. I don't know what the answer is.
I think we cause all sorts of mental disorders when we try so very hard to overcome instincts.
iris lilies
11-29-17, 6:48pm
...What I wonder about is, have people who worked closely with Charlie Rose and Matt Lauer (women), .....have they ever suspected anything like this?
I did see part of the statement by Savannah Guthie and she seemed totally shocked, as did Gayle King and Nora O'Donnell regarding Charlie Rose. Maybe these men only picked on women lower down in the food chain?....
Lauer was a known womanizer.
One of our local radio guys postulated last week that Lauer would be amoung those to fall.
Katie Couric said in an old interview that he was annoying for always having his hand on her ass.
dado potato
11-29-17, 6:57pm
There has been a sea change. I would have to look back at the timeline of events... Maybe several organizations decided around the same time that they had no more toleration for "improprieties", and they would impose harsh sanctions. And at the same time more women were saying "enough!", and "wait a minute, I was victimized... when, and by whom".
Allegations of abuse of children by priests in the USA go back to 1950, or perhaps earlier. In 1985 the case of Gilbert Gauthier, a priest in Louisiana, resulted in a conviction on 11 counts and a sentence of 10 years in prison.
In September 1991 the Tailhook scandal occurred in a Las Vegas hotel, which was the venue for a Navy and Marine Corps symposium attended by 4,000 active, reserve and retired personnel. 83 women and 7 men reported that they had been victims of sexual assault and harassment. The Department of the Navy investigated, and their initial finding was that no senior officers bore responsibility for what had happened. Assistant Secretary of the Navy Barbara S. Pope went to Secretary of the Navy Henry L. Garrett III and advised him she would resign if the Department of the Navy did not do another report. That second report assigned some responsibility to flag officers, among others. Ultimately sanctions ended or damaged the careers of 14 admirals and almost 300 naval aviators.
In 1992 Massachusetts priest James Porter was found guilty of abusing more than 24 boys and girls, and he was sentenced to 18-20 years. Also in 1992 the US Conference of Catholic Bishops acknowledged that some bishops had attempted to cover up abuse.
In March of 2003 Air Force Secretary James G. Roche testified before the Senate Armed Services Committee about sexual assault reports at the US Air Force Academy. He said, "We are learning enough to realize that change must occur... Change in the climate, change in how we manage."
In 2007 the San Diego Diocese was facing 150 lawsuits alleging sexual abuse by 60 priests, and filed for bankruptcy. In the same year the Archdiocese of Los Angeles agreed to pay $660 million to settle abuse claims brought by 500 people.
And now it looks like a really sad day in Lake Pants B-Gone, Garrison Keillor says he has been fired by Minnesota Public Radio for "inappropriate behavior".
https://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-way/2017/11/29/567241644/garrison-keillor-accused-of-inappropriate-behavior-minnesota-public-radio-says
LOL........"Lake pants-B-Gone".........
iris lilies
11-29-17, 8:37pm
...
Correspondingly, while the accusations against Al Franken are disappointing (at best), is forcing his resignation from the Senate good for national action on women's issues given Franken's positive legislative track record on those issues?
...
That was the arguement that kept feminists from castigating the Groper in Chief, Bill Clinton. He is a lecherous beast but he helps so many women through his finessing of the political process, so they told each other.
In my book Al Franken’s acts as revealed so far should NOt cause him to lose his Senate seat. While I wish that all of the men and women in the Senate were morally upright and class acts, that will not always be the case because we are talking about humans.
I think the more important point is that people in Minnesota elected him, and people outside of Minnesota should be bloody careful abou tossing out someone's elected official. Let the Northerners sort it out in the next election which I am quite sure he will win, it being three years from now and all will be forgotten.
Ultralight
11-29-17, 8:39pm
Innocent until proven guilty. Due process. These things are just forgotten in so many ways.
iris lilies
11-29-17, 8:40pm
Innocent until proven guilty. Due process. These things are just forgotten in so many ways.
Matt Lauer isnt being tried in court here you know.
I think the more important point is that people in Minnesota elected him, and people outside of Minnesota should be bloody careful abou tossing out someone's elected official. Let the Northerners sort it out in the next election which I am quite sure he will win, it being three years from now and all will be forgotten.
I agree whole heartedly with this. Absent criminal charges, it's the employers, those who have hired the miscreant to represent them, who must take action. In the case of elected officials, the employer is the voters. If they feel that it is in their interests to keep said miscreant, it's no one else's business.
Innocent until proven guilty. Due process. These things are just forgotten in so many ways.That only applies in criminal cases, that's why President Clinton was impeached for lying under oath, not for his other indiscretions.
Ultralight
11-29-17, 8:48pm
That only applies in criminal cases, that's why President Clinton was impeached for lying under oath, not for his other indiscretions.
Oh, I know. I know.
Though I will admit that I wish people would take that ethos into other spheres.
I wish it would snowball faster, and that rather than wait for victims to come forward organizations would do anonymous surveys to find out the prevalence of harassment in their workplaces and work to stop it. There would be many examples I could give of hostile workplace environment comments in my current and previous job, and not just by men. Right now I work with some extremely raunchy women. Among other things they had male stripper in the office. But I would never report them without anonymity, because the mean girl mobbing would be horrendous.
ETA It is possible to change a culture. The Air Force was mentioned above. I have two sisters-in-law who served in it, one in the 80's and one from 1995 to the present. They had totally different experiences, from prevalent then to nonexistent now sexual harassment.
Ultralight
11-29-17, 9:04pm
I wish it would snowball faster, and that rather than wait for victims to come forward organizations would do anonymous surveys to find out the prevalence of harassment in their workplaces and work to stop it. There would be many examples I could give of hostile workplace environment comments in my current and previous job, and not just by men. Right now I work with some extremely raunchy women. Among other things they had male stripper in the office. But I would never report them without anonymity, because the mean girl mobbing would be horrendous.
I work with some raunchy women too. Just today I was hanging out in a cubicle with two women colleagues. One is on the verge of getting engaged. The other asked: "Do you have a size limit on your ring?"
The soon-to-be engaged one said: "No..."
The other one said: "Because size matters!"
Then they started giggling and they both looked at me and said: "Why didn't you laugh at that?"
Ultralight
11-29-17, 9:05pm
I wish it would snowball faster, and that rather than wait for victims to come forward organizations would do anonymous surveys to find out the prevalence of harassment in their workplaces and work to stop it. There would be many examples I could give of hostile workplace environment comments in my current and previous job, and not just by men. Right now I work with some extremely raunchy women. Among other things they had male stripper in the office. But I would never report them without anonymity, because the mean girl mobbing would be horrendous.
Keep your head down and your nose to the grindstone.
Simplemind
11-30-17, 12:45pm
Yppej...... a stripper in the office????? Who let that fly?
iris lilies
11-30-17, 1:05pm
Yppej...... a stripper in the office????? Who let that fly?
This round of sexual harrassment charges will not be co plete until women are brought in. Who will it be? Maybe Angelina Jolie, she was rather crazy in her early days. What about Susan Saranden? nah, I guess not.
I cant help but think that Rosie OdDonnell is a bit of a lech.
We shall see.
Yppej...... a stripper in the office????? Who let that fly?
It was before I started earlier this year but I would say everyone let it fly. There is a photo album in the office of the event that the staff show people. It is not a secret or anything anyone expresses any remorse for.
This round of sexual harrassment charges will not be co plete until women are brought in.
I know it's not PC to point out that men are essentially different than women, but I think it's the rare male who would complain about some the allegations we've seen recently.
A couple of months ago an attractive female co-worker and I were walking down a hallway, discussing the problem of the day. As we turned a corner there was a workman setting up a ladder and we were both startled at it's proximity. As we quickly stopped, she automatically reached out to stop me and in the process grabbed my crotch. Once we regained our composure and continued on our way, she said "I guess you've had your thrill for the day", which I'm sure some folks would consider inappropriate, although being a typical male my thoughts ran more towards "I wonder how I could make that happen again".
What if she weren't attractive, but the female equivalent of Harvey Weinstein?
Ultralight
11-30-17, 9:18pm
I know it's not PC to point out that men are essentially different than women, but I think it's the rare male who would complain about some the allegations we've seen recently.
A couple of months ago an attractive female co-worker and I were walking down a hallway, discussing the problem of the day. As we turned a corner there was a workman setting up a ladder and we were both startled at it's proximity. As we quickly stopped, she automatically reached out to stop me and in the process grabbed my crotch. Once we regained our composure and continued on our way, she said "I guess you've had your thrill for the day", which I'm sure some folks would consider inappropriate, although being a typical male my thoughts ran more towards "I wonder how I could make that happen again".
LOL.
At my work today a colleague ask me if I knew was "scissoring" was. I said: "No comment."
She then made a very suggestive motion with her hands together in "peace signs."
I said: "No comment."
Another female colleague said to her: "You could be the next Matt Lauer."
They both laughed.
I know it's not PC to point out that men are essentially different than women, but I think it's the rare male who would complain about some the allegations we've seen recently.
A couple of months ago an attractive female co-worker and I were walking down a hallway, discussing the problem of the day. As we turned a corner there was a workman setting up a ladder and we were both startled at it's proximity. As we quickly stopped, she automatically reached out to stop me and in the process grabbed my crotch. Once we regained our composure and continued on our way, she said "I guess you've had your thrill for the day", which I'm sure some folks would consider inappropriate, although being a typical male my thoughts ran more towards "I wonder how I could make that happen again".
LOL Alan. Hmmm....I guess I'm going to have to report you to someone......maybe the thought police? :~)
dado potato
11-30-17, 9:31pm
Alan,
Try singing... I'm a little teapot, firm and stout.
Here is my handle, here is my spout.
<just kidding.>
Ultralight
11-30-17, 9:35pm
Disclaimer: I LOLed at Alan's experience. I was not laughing at anyone else's experience.
What if she weren't attractive, but the female equivalent of Harvey Weinstein?Her comment would have probably changed to "I guess I've had my thrill for the day".
Ultralight
11-30-17, 9:52pm
Her comment would have probably changed to "I guess I've had my thrill for the day".
Right now an SJW's blood is boiling over this statement.
Right now an SJW's blood is boiling over this statement.
Then my work here is done. Good night everybody!
Ultralight
11-30-17, 10:00pm
Then my work here is done. Good night everybody!
:):devil:
What if she weren't attractive, but the female equivalent of Harvey Weinstein?
And Alan's boss, or Alan's boss's boss. I've had a couple of jobs where further up the ladder from me was an older gay man. I would not have wanted to endure from either of those guys the stuff that's been alleged. I mean, acck, if either of them had invited me to their office and then pressed a button under their desk to lock the door, like Matt Lauer supposedly did... Yikes!
On the other hand, if Andy, the late 20s-ish straight hottie underwriter from a different division than I work in accidentally groped me in a situation like Alan's that'd be awesome! But then he doesn't look like Harvey W, and he can't fire me.
And Alan's boss, or Alan's boss's boss. I've had a couple of jobs where further up the ladder from me was an older gay man. I would not have wanted to endure from either of those guys the stuff that's been alleged. I mean, acck, if either of them had invited me to their office and then pressed a button under their desk to lock the door, like Matt Lauer supposedly did... Yikes!
On the other hand, if Andy, the late 20s-ish straight hottie underwriter from a different division than I work in accidentally groped me in a situation like Alan's that'd be awesome! But then he doesn't look like Harvey W, and he can't fire me.
Exactly. The issue is power. Over the person being pressured into something they don't want to do. If Alan's unattractive boss has asked him to grope her, and he had a family to support, and needed the job (or was desperate for it), that would come closer to what is being discussed here. Power versus powerlessness is the dynamic that creates the damage. I never included regular guys (my age or older, which happened often), to be harassment. Totally different dynamic and feeling in the body. With regular people/interactions the flight/fight/freeze mechanism is not engaged - unless the situation itself is dangerous, ie, a large drunk male making aggressive advances, you find yourself in a dark unpopulated place and are approached by a male or males, etc.
I have to say, I'm kind of surprised to be spelling out these distinctions. We're all adults here, we know what this stuff is. Why are we pretending we don't?
Exactly. The issue is power. Over the person being pressured into something they don't want to do. If Alan's unattractive boss has asked him to grope her, and he had a family to support, and needed the job (or was desperate for it), that would come closer to what is being discussed here. Power versus powerless is he dynamic that creates the damage. I never included regular guys (my age or older, which happened often), to be harassment. Totally different dynamic and feeling in the body. With regular people/interactions the flight/fight/freeze mechanism is not engaged - unless the situation itself is dangerous, ie, a large drunk male making aggressive advances, you find yourself in a dark unpopulated place and are approached by a male or males, etc.
I have to say, I'm kind of surprised to be spelling out these distinctions. We're all adults here, we know what this stuff is. Why are we pretending we don't?
I think the pretense is because of how profoundly uncomfortable people feel with these revelations. One woman describes a sexual assault after he locked the door that left her unconscious and in need of medical care.
So a. maybe he will get his court of law
and b. this is disturbing, disturbing stuff.
c. people often make jokes when they are nervous.
I think the pretense is because of how profoundly uncomfortable people feel with these revelations. One woman describes a sexual assault after he locked the door that left her unconscious and in need of medical care.
So a. maybe he will get his court of law
and b. this is disturbing, disturbing stuff.
c. people often make jokes when they are nervous.
I guess, having experienced this sort of thing firsthand at a young age, I don't understand how that works. I didn't have that luxury. But if that's the case, okay.
In regards to what you just mentioned about the attack that left the woman unconscious and in need of medical care: I forgot to mention the physical side of it - most men are larger and more physically powerful than women. If he locked the door and didn't want her to get out, she would have had a difficult time doing so. Many women, including myself, know that if a man chooses to attack us, we often don't stand a chance. Most men don't know what that feels like. To use Alan's example - he knew (and knows) full well that if he didn't want to be touched sexually by a woman, boss or no boss, or a man for that matter, he is physically able to put a stop to it.
But again, I feel silly and a bit annoyed bringing that up. We all know this.
I think I'm veering back into the posts where I bother people. And I just got back! Oh, well.
I don't know. I can't begin to relate to doing some of these things to women (were I a man)..........even if I ruled the world. Maybe I just don't have the testosterone needed.
iris lilies
12-1-17, 4:18pm
I guess, having experienced this sort of thing firsthand at a young age, I don't understand how that works. I didn't have that luxury. But if that's the case, okay.
In regards to what you just mentioned about the attack that left the woman unconscious and in need of medical care: I forgot to mention the physical side of it - most men are larger and more physically powerful than women. If he locked the door and didn't want her to get out, she would have had a difficult time doing so. Many women, including myself, know that if a man chooses to attack us, we often don't stand a chance. Most men don't know what that feels like. To use Alan's example - he knew (and knows) full well that if he didn't want to be touched sexually by a woman, boss or no boss, or a man for that matter, he is physically able to put a stop to it.
But again, I feel silly and a bit annoyed bringing that up. We all know this.
I think I'm veering back into the posts where I bother people. And I just got back! Oh, well.
please. Annoy us! What is the big deal about being annoyed, or annoying? Haha.
ApatheticNoMore
12-1-17, 4:29pm
It's not just power, yes power over an underling is one way to rack up sexual harassment charges, quid pro quo. But a coworker groping (not in the rare case it is an accident like with Alan but otherwise) can also be just as guilty for creating a hostile work environment. As any workplace training video on sexual harassment will clearly explain, neither of these are ok. In fact every such video I've ever seen make the distinction between quid pro quo and hostile work environment etc. and BOTH are illegal. But what if you ask a coworker for a date? Yea see that's not necessarily sexual harassment. But even it could tread that line, if they say no again and again, and you keep asking. So I don't think those distinctions between those who have power over one and don't exist so clearly in the law at all, especially for groping which shouldn't be happening in the workplace at all. Although quid pro quo might be an easier one to litigate, I don't know, hostile work environment may require repeated instances and of course one is supposed to go to HR first etc.. There are other aspects of a work environment that might make a workplace "hostile" in plain English but they don't make it "hostile" in the legal sense, like workplace bullying, that's not generally illegal, but sexual harassment by bosses AND coworkers, and discrimination and bullying based on protected category is illegal.
iris lilies
12-1-17, 4:36pm
Male stripper in workplace creates a hostile work environment, for both men and women. Strippers are pretty much equal opportunity offenders. I like the occasional stripper perfoemance but NOT WITH MY WORK COLLEAGUES.
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