Truth or starting a conversation more imoortant

[flowerseverywhere]

This morning a series of anti Muslim videos were retweeted by Trump. The origin is a British anti immigration hate group.

Sara Huckabee Sanders said when queried it did not matter if they were true. The purpose is to start a conversation?

does anyone think this is OK? If you do, why?

[Teacher Terry]

No it is not okay. Trump and SAra live in an alternate universe:confused:

[nswef]

diversion, diversion, diversion and perhaps a bit of insanity.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I believe they call those types of attempts to start a conversation: trolling.

[BikingLady]

All of the above.

[JaneV2.0]

That's funny--given how quick Sanders is to cut off anyone who asks a probing question.

Every day, it seems, Trump amps up his offensive behavior. These videos will undoubtedly spur his followers to new levels of xenophobia. We can't be rid of him soon enough. (She types, wearing her "Mueller Time" tee...)

[BikingLady]

How come the supporters do not see all these strange things he does? Honestly this is a question I struggle with.

[bae]

I recently watched a bunch of first-source films of political speeches in Germany pre-WWII.

And I did some thinking about the timelines of the transformations of seemingly rational, progressive, and advanced cultures to, well, Horrible People. It doesn’t take long.

[flowerseverywhere]

How come the supporters do not see all these strange things he does? Honestly this is a question I struggle with.

Exactly. I want to hear one of his supporters explain to us how this is OK. If his approval rating is still above 30% someone must be out there who is gleefully be applauding him.

[flowerseverywhere]

I recently watched a bunch of first-source films of political speeches in Germany pre-WWII.

And I did some thinking about the timelines of the transformations of seemingly rational, progressive, and advanced cultures to, well, Horrible People. It doesn’t take long.

exactly why this is so frightening. And how can the elected republicans who are standing idly by (that’s all of you congressmen, governors etc.) justify their silence. He can’t fire you like his chief of staff. You were elected to serve the people.

[BikingLady]

I have yet to hear anyone personally say all the strange things Mr. T does are good or Ok and yes I know a few who voted for him and had signs in their yards. Actually they are mum and I don't bring up the topic with them. I only see Fox saying he is great.

[iris lilies]

We listened to the President’s speech live today as he was giving it 5 blocks from where we were driving (home from a vacation.) He did a decent job. He was here in the St. louis County area to sell the Republican tax cut bill. But his speech was an overview of what is going on with the U.S. Economy, what he still plans to do including border security measures. He didnt target Muslims, however.

He has a limited vocabulary. everything with him is ”tremendous” or “horrible” or “special.” But he delivered it well and kept the crowd entertained.

[iris lilies]

The literal answer to your question OP is No, I dont think it is exactly OK, but I dont think it is the big deal you think it is. There is plenty of substantiated acts by badnick Muslims performed for political theater that are caught on video, and he could have used those.

Would Danny Pearl’s rolling head be better subject matter for Trump to tweet to get a point across?

Apparently (from my brief investigation) these tweeted videos are not especially egregious acts.

[Chicken lady]

Iris Lilie’s, in the interest of starting a conversation, truly, what exactly do you think is the point he’s trying to get across, and do you agree with it? And why(not)?

[iris lilies]

Iris Lilie’s, in the interest of starting a conversation, truly, what exactly do you think is the point he’s trying to get across, and do you agree with it? And why(not)?

I assume the point of his tweet is to remind his Twitter followers that there are badnick Muslim jihadists out there, wanting to create trouble in the U.S. That is an undisputed fact. Should the President of the U.S. put it out there in a casual tweet? Well, considering that he tweets a lot of stuff each day that gets the media all riled up, I see today’s tweet content as beng a little stupider than usual, but still not out of bounds of consideration.

We learned that the Muslim jihadist who drove the Home Depot truck into a group of people in New York City was here under a lottery immigration program

https://www.uscis.gov/greencard/diversity-visa (https://www.uscis.gov/greencard/diversity-visa)


And I have to wonder, to whom does this seem even remotely logical? And why?

I cannot groke a world where persons coming into our country are not vetted in some way. Not that I think any bureaucrat will be able to identify all potential badnicks, but to simply throw open the doors of our country to random doobies, that is messed up. And no, I dont want that to happen in my country.

edited to add: I read up more about Sayfullo Saipov and his immigration status. He came into the U.S. via a program called Diversity Immigratin where people are selected and then put throguh a vetting process, but
I do not know if that vetting processes is a rigorous as for other immigration programs.

Anther man, Hesham Mohamed Hadayet, came into our country via the same immigration program And also created death and mayhem when he shot people at LA airport in 1997.

[Yppej]

I was less bothered by the videos than by Trump disrupting an event to honor Navajo code talkers to call Elizabeth Warren Pocahontas. Very disrespectful to the veterans by a man who dodged the draft claiming medical issues while playing football, tennis and squash.

[Chicken lady]

I don’t think his base needs reminding. I do not have data at my fingertips, but I have read crime statistics that show that boys like the one who grew up down the street from me kill far more people per capita than Muslim immigrants. I think by choosing a subgroup that is not a primary risk, he is attempting to sow prejudice and division (and create a distraction from other horrible things he is doing) not create a dialog about solving the problem.

My impression is that he would like to block 100% of Muslim immigration - depriving our society of many good and productive citizens and causing more suffering worldwide than is being caused by these terrorist acts - in order to stop a small number of “badnicks”

I agree with your facts on the details you shared about the two criminals mentioned. However, I think we already vet immigrants pretty thoroughly. We could make Americans a lot safer while putting less effort in by “screening” natives. (Internet sites, gun buyers). I think being young, male, and marginalized was far more significant to their behavior than their religion or country of birth.

It would be a more reasonable response to risk for you to give up driving or riding in cars order to avoid becoming a traffic death.

i also have to wonder how our society’s response to these immigrants shapes their acts.

my mom used to say that she opposed interracial marriage if people wanted kids because there were too many problems for the kids. I always responded by being angry that she didn’t see fighting for normalization of interracial marriage and a more decent society was the solution to that, not trying to keep the kids from being born.

how would you you feel if he frequently tweeted about poor inner city black native born Americans committing crimes? He could find several every day.

the overwhelming factor mass murders, arsonists, rapists, pedophiles, bank robbers etc have in common is being native born American males. Maybe he should tweet every day “another AMERICAN MAN committed a violent crime today.” So we don’t forget that we have a problem.

[iris lilies]

It doesnt matter what you think in this context of The Prez communing with his “base” because you arent them. He will talk at them about whatever topic they all agree on, and that is kinda the point of his Tweets. Well, that, and maybe to rile up our country’s mainstream media, they get triggered pretty fast from a Trump tweet.

I have no trouble supporting any politician who makes an effort toward thoughtful immigration for those who come from countries where a percentage is higher of jihadists than from other countries. To the idea that it is tiny percentage who may cause trouble, I say: Why take known risks? To enter this country is a privilege, a very special privilege. Why shouldnt someone coming in be fully vetted for the safety of U.S. citizens?

Not all who want to come into the U.S. will be able to get in, there are far too many who want to be here. Let’s pick the best and brightest for the health of our country. Angry young men from jihad countries are not my top pick.

Sure, we have a lot of native angry young men killing people here. I live in the murder capitol of the country and I am well aware that 90% of my city’s murders were perpatrated by a specific demographic, young black men. Asking me how I would “feel” if the Prez tweeted this fact is silly. What do my feelings have to do with anything? If he tweeted this truth, I suppose it would be viewed as race baiting, but it is a sad truth. These young men are fellow citizens and live amoung us as equals. They present a huge social problem that we have some responsibility to address. Citizenship has meaning to me. Citizens have rights.

Why bring in more people who have potential to be angry young men and i stall them as citizens, therefore increasing our responsibilities? We cant fix the social provlems we have now, cant take on more.


Finally, your “impression” that he would block 100% of Muslims is, well, not factual. So I won't address it. :)

[Yppej]

No he won't block all Muslims. Saudi Arabia, home base for the 9/11 hijackers, is not on his bad list because he is buddies with their despotic royal family.

[Chicken lady]

It’s a fact that it is my impression. It’s an impression that he has created in me in part through his choice of emphasis in tweets and executive orders. I was sharing an effect with you. A small, but possibly repeated effect, likely to occur in those far removed from his base (and I agree that the effect on his base is irrelevant in this context. I was trying to say that: having covered “the base”, what effects are being created elsewhere?)

Your feelings normally have a lot to do with your behavior. Few of us act solely from a spocklike motive.

i think people are “fully vetted” now. We could do much better by only admitting females. And banning returning combat soldiers - yes, I know, citizens and service, it is simply a logical act based on statistics. Not one I am advocating.

i feel as if we are not addressing the huge social problem of native born alienated young men and we would all be safer and happier if the energy being put into blocking immigration was put there instead. Again - that is an opinion. I disagree with his focus - but also with his methods, which I think exacerbate the problem rather than contribute to a solution.

reasons to bring immigrants into this country include skills, work ethic, and humanitarian considerations. Children of immigrants statistically perform better in school and contribute more to the economy per capita than children of native born Americans.

how would YOU view tweeting about crime committed by young black men? Not “how do you think it would be viewed” or tweeting about teenage girls engaging in prostitution? Also a common crime. Are either of those different to you and why?

what additional vetting do you think is needed for countries plagued by jihadists?

[iris lilies]

It’s a fact that it is my impression. It’s an impression that he has created in me in part through his choice of emphasis in tweets and executive orders. I was sharing an effect with you. A small, but possibly repeated effect, likely to occur in those far removed from his base (and I agree that the effect on his base is irrelevant in this context. I was trying to say that: having covered “the base”, what effects are being created elsewhere?)

Your feelings normally have a lot to do with your behavior. Few of us act solely from a spocklike motive.

i think people are “fully vetted” now. We could do much better by only admitting females. And banning returning combat soldiers - yes, I know, citizens and service, it is simply a logical act based on statistics. Not one I am advocating.

i feel as if we are not addressing the huge social problem of native born alienated young men and we would all be safer and happier if the energy being put into blocking immigration was put there instead. Again - that is an opinion. I disagree with his focus - but also with his methods, which I think exacerbate the problem rather than contribute to a solution.

reasons to bring immigrants into this country include skills, work ethic, and humanitarian considerations. Children of immigrants statistically perform better in school and contribute more to the economy per capita than children of native born Americans.

how would YOU view tweeting about crime committed by young black men? Not “how do you think it would be viewed” or tweeting about teenage girls engaging in prostitution? Also a common crime. Are either of those different to you and why?

what additional vetting do you think is needed for countries plagued by jihadists?

What effects are being created elsewhere? You mean outside of the U.S.? Perhaps I dont much care.

Ah, the lecture about how we need immigrants. I have heard enough pompous opining on that score in recent months so yeah, I think we get the picture, immigrants are important, Have been so in the past and will be in the future. If anyone in government with authority to act has a plan for No Immigration at all, please provide links since I dont believe anyone has propsed that. That is hyperbole.

I dont know what the vetting process is for new immigrants. I dont expect it to be perfect in identifyIng angry jihadists but if you expect me to believe it cant be improved, sorry I wont. Now, whether or not additional resources for better vetting would result in measureable better outcome is unlikely. These human social problems are devilishly hard to fix, and measure the fix. Circling back to my original idea, why bring in more problems to our country? What are we gaining by their entry and is it worth the tradeoff? You say yes, I say maybe not.

Your idea of changing government focus from immigration to solving the social problems of inner city poor isnt practical and is outside of the scope of this thread, anyway. , but you may work toward that, whatever.

I dont know how I would view Presidential tweeting about crime and homicides by young black men, depends on the tweet content and frequency. And prostitution? Are they different and why? Hunh?

Ummm, I wont be taking this Compare and Contrast test, but thanks, teach.

[iris lilies]

Chicken Lady, the original list of banned Muslims for immigration here was made up by President Obama. My memory is that those countries were listed because the countries themselves were unable or unwilling to vet their own people who wanted to leave. It was a small number of countries amoung all of the predominately Muslim countries in the world.

[flowerseverywhere]

Here is a description of the vetting that is done

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/asked-refugees-vetted-today

iris, your views are interesting. Alt right and Neo Nazi groups must be joyously celebrating the free press and presidential support they got today. #make America white again.

[Chicken lady]

No, I mean elsewhere in the US. I am an example of his comments creating stronger hostility toward him and his policies. The more he tweets things like that, the less I think there is any hope that he can work with people who do not agree with him. And the less I care if anyone tries to work with him. An attitude which I see as counterproductive to create for anyone in leadership.

From your longer response i believe that I seem to be making you angry. I’m sorry. That isn’t my intention and I wasn’t trying to lecture. I do think we need immigrants. I also think immigrants need us and my personal values system makes that an imperative. I realize you may be coming from a different place. I ask you questions because I think your answers will help me better understand your reasoning. Or maybe you just aren’t interested in the direction I am interested in taking the conversation.

i don’t think anyone has a plan for no immigration. Trumps behavior gives ME the impression that he would prefer zero immigration. Also, it’s the only way to be sure we never allow in someone who will commit a crime. I agree with you that additional vetting is unlikely to produce a noticeably better outcome. So why is the president still so focused on this? Do you think it is because he disagrees with us about the potential for better screening? I think it’s because he wants as little non white immigration as possible and more power in the hands of rich white people. And I think that based on the things he says and does.

[flowerseverywhere]

Iris, another question since you are the only one who has spoken in defense . My question is how this behavior has any possible benefits I am missing. We can all argue about whether immigration is good or bad. Personally, I think we are all to blame for the faults of our immigration system. We have all stood by and allowed our elected officials to put band aids on here and there but not deal with and establish a clear immigration policy. Our leaders have knowingly allowed dreamers and others to stay here. And there are so many myths involving immigration and refugees that are imbedded in peoples minds. Like the vetting. There are clear guidelines established.

So back to the tweets, how do they benefit the American people?
how do they benefit the presidency?

[Lainey]

The truth has gotten lost in the fog of war, as the expression goes.

I remember back in 2002 discussing the U.S. initial attack on Iraq with a right-wing co-worker. I asked him, why Iraq? They never attacked us, and were not part of the 9/11 attack on the U.S. His answer: "It doesn't matter." He felt the world should see "someone over there" getting punished.
So here we are, 3 Trillion Dollars and 15 years later.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Three_Trillion_Dollar_War

How many of us would have become extremists and want revenge if our country was bombed and under foreign occupation for 15 years?

[JaneV2.0]

It's all just misdirection, IMO. Armed, right-leaning white male cranks are a lot more of a threat than immigrants of whatever stripe, as proved by near-daily headlines.

[iris lilies]

I love being the apologist for Donald John Trump. Not. I didnt vote for him. but anyways...

Chicken Lady: not your fault that I am turned off by the idea that “Immigration is good.” To me, that seems like a given, a kindergarden concept in the discourse of immigration policy and anyone who tosses that at me seems to me to be treating me like a five year old.

At least you didnt waste my time by piously reminding me that we are all immigrants or come from immigrants. Thanks for that. If I am annoyed, no worries. It doesnt take much to annoy me, haha.

As for your impression that the Prez doesnt want non whites immigrating here: Well, my “impression” is that he is fine with those who are clearly educated and on a career path in careers where we need workers. To give Stereotype examples, Indian Computer engineers, Filapino and Kenyan Nurses, Asian pharmacists/doctors/science researchers are fine, for instance. My impression only, not factual although the Prez has emphsized he wants more focus on a merit based immigration system.

There seems to be real need for workers to perform low level work in the U.S. And I dont understand why U.S business owners have been unsuccessful in working with their political representatives in expanding guest worker programs to accomodate their needs, but this problem did not originate with Donald John. It existed in the Obama administration which could have addressed it, and it probably has been around for decades. Expanding programs for legal entry but not citizenship seems like a no brainer to me, although there are attendant issues with public respurces going to support workers from across our southern border and elsewhere.

[Teacher Terry]

Interesting enough the orange haired one has no problem bringing in immigrants from other countries to work in his hotels, etc. in low paid jobs. This is how he fills his maid positions, etc. So poorly educated immigrants are good if he needs them for his business and bad otherwise. Yeah the Donald would be happiest in an all white world and he tweets to his racist followers. Most presidents try to bring a country together instead of rip it apart.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I don't see what the videos have to do with immigration anyway, most immigrants aren't Muslim, I'd imagine they are a small % of immigrants, maybe I'm wrong. And few immigrants are violent.

Immigration is separate issue, and the main problem is the U.S. doesn't have the infrastructure (housing, roads, schools, jobs, etc.) to support much population growth (we don't even have the housing to prevent a mass and ever growing homelessness problem all along the west coast, that is how bad it is!). However there are some sectors that do seem to need immigration (they aren't for the most part "well educated" I'm not even convinced there is much real need there except that companies want lower paid indentured servants (people who can't "seek another job"). They are agriculture though, I don't think they have found a way to run agriculture without immigrants yet). And the dreamers are pretty sympathetic as many have never lived elsewhere.

[iris lilies]

Iris, another question since you are the only one who has spoken in defense . My question is how this behavior has any possible benefits I am missing. We can all argue about whether immigration is good or bad. Personally, I think we are all to blame for the faults of our immigration system. We have all stood by and allowed our elected officials to put band aids on here and there but not deal with and establish a clear immigration policy. Our leaders have knowingly allowed dreamers and others to stay here. And there are so many myths involving immigration and refugees that are imbedded in peoples minds. Like the vetting. There are clear guidelines established.

So back to the tweets, how do they benefit the American people?
how do they benefit the presidency?

re: immigration

Those clear guidelines could be improved, anything can be improved. Worth additional resources? Maybe not. But I did not then (early in this year) and do not now oppose stopping immigration while those vetting standards are reviewed. That seems like common sense to me. New administration, new rules. Even if the “new” rules end up being simple tweaks of the old, it is ok by me.

Re: tweets

Anyway, to your original question, what are “possible benefits” of Trump tweeting? His actions are team building. As I stated before he is speaking to his “base” (I hate that word for some reason.) You and other dissenters are not on his team. You are either for him or against him, and those who were for him propelled him into the White House. You are not very important to this President. Its ok, I was of no significance to tha last President and my Congressman and local legislative representative are positively against anything I find important. They are useless.

In his St. Louis speech yesterday President Trump did a good job in pulling his supporters into the team mindset. DH, A Trumpster all the way, mentioned how President Trump “didn't use ‘I’ like Obama did all the time.” Whether true or not, that is DH’s impression of the Ex Prez and we have been tossing about impressions a lot in this thread.

[oldhat]

Interesting article (https://www.vox.com/2017/11/30/16517022/impeachment-donald-trump) by Ezra Klein today in Vox arguing that Americans are much too fearful of using impeachment as a tool to remove someone manifestly unfit for the presidency from office. He makes a number of excellent points. Not the least of these is that when a company hires someone who proves to be unsuited to the job, it can fire him. It seems absurd that you can fire an incompetent CEO with relative ease, but not the most powerful (and potentially destructive) man in the world. The standard of the Constitution of high crimes and misdemeanors isn't a legal one. Klein isn't the first to argue that even if the founders didn't see impeachment as a first resort, nor did they see it as a last one.

The obvious counterargument is that impeachment used in this way could become a political football, but that fear may be unfounded. It takes a two-third vote in the Senate to convict, and that's always going to be a heavy lift.

Of course, I'm not optimistic that Republicans in Congress are going to have a sudden attack of integrity and remove Trump. And so long as he remains in office, we are either going to be very lucky or very, very sorry.

[creaker]

Seems we're revisiting old "truths". The birther thing has been put back on the table. But maybe we need another conversation about that.

[Alan]

Seems we're revisiting old "truths". The birther thing has been put back on the table. But maybe we need another conversation about that.
That's a simple one, I think it only existed because of young Barack Obama's getting a discounted education as a foreign national, then having his records sealed from public scrutiny. It's much the same thing as Elizabeth Warren using a questionable American Indian heritage to advance her career.

[creaker]

That's a simple one, I think it only existed because of young Barack Obama's getting a discounted education as a foreign national, then having his records sealed from public scrutiny. It's much the same thing as Elizabeth Warren using a questionable American Indian heritage to advance her career.

I remember endless discussion of his birth certificate being faked. Which is continuing:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/28/politics/donald-trump-barack-obama-birth-certificate-nyt/index.html

I never heard about the student aid thing until now, but Snopes has:

https://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/occidental.asp

[JaneV2.0]

I remember endless discussion of his birth certificate being faked. Which is continuing:

http://www.cnn.com/2017/11/28/politics/donald-trump-barack-obama-birth-certificate-nyt/index.html

I never heard about the student aid thing until now, but Snopes has:

https://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/birthers/occidental.asp

Those Fox News lies--the real fake news--have an exceedingly long shelf life, it seems.

[nswef]

Andy Andrews How to Kill 11 Million People- lie, lie, lie and continue to lie until people believe you....

[jp1]

Just as antisemitism was (is) a thing, so too is antimuslimism. 45 is clearly the latter. The president's tweets will very likely result in an increase of violence against muslims. Woohoo! :-/

But it will be interesting/unpleasant to see how the sad dude in chief tries to deflect his responsibility if/when we have another Benghazi. I suppose his defenders will bleat "It wasn't his fault! Those people are monsters!" And the world will be even less civil than it was before. Winning!

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/trumps-anti-muslim-retweets-make-americans-less-safe-analysts-say-heres-how

[flowerseverywhere]

Those Fox News lies--the real fake news--have an exceedingly long shelf life, it seems.

Sadly true. Today half the fox webpage was about Matt Lauer, most of the other half about how evil Hillary is.
Anyone who is paying attention wants to know about what exactly is in the tax reform bill. Also, an interest in North Korea who incidentally is very close to taking out the US with nuclear strikes. And the Muslim tweet thing, not a mention. Fake news must have made them all up.

[flowerseverywhere]

That's a simple one, I think it only existed because of young Barack Obama's getting a discounted education as a foreign national, then having his records sealed from public scrutiny. It's much the same thing as Elizabeth Warren using a questionable American Indian heritage to advance her career.

that excuses Trumps behavior and lies. Got it.