View Full Version : What about second chances?
I don't want anyone to think that I'm condoning all the sexually inappropriate things that have gone on with a number of people in the limelight. But I've been thinking..........some of these people have contributed a lot to their profession. For example......Charlie Rose and all his great interviewing. Some people really liked Matt Lauer too. If we're going to let hardened criminals out of prison to commit crimes again, why can't we give these other people second chances?
It seems like the pendulum swings drastically in one direction or the other, and we have a lot of knee-jerk reactions.
For example, why couldn't we say to people like Charlie Rose, etc...........okay.......your behavior was totally unacceptable. We want you to express your bad behavior publicly and on the air at your job......and you will be given one more chance, since you have contributed some good things for so long. But buddy......you mess up once more, and you're out of here.
I'm not minimizing what they have done to people. I'm saying isn't there any way of redemption, other than destroying their lives?
We seem to tolerate so much lesser violence, crimes, etc. Why couldn't we consider giving these people second chances?
Just trying to start a conversation of the possibilities...........
Williamsmith
12-6-17, 9:57am
CathyA, I’m all for second chances but not at the cost of victims. Otherwise, you are victimizing them a second time. A victim needs to feel they have a chance at restorative justice. That doesn’t mean punishment for the offender makes everything right, it means those authorized to punish do so with the victims best interest in mind. It’s like applying ointment to a wound. It’s their job to heal but you need to assist it and not rip it open further. Furthermore, it is the victim and only the victim who can truly give the gift of a second chance. Actions have consequences.
Thanks Williamsmith. That makes sense. Would there ever be a way for the perpetrators to make amends with their victims, and then continue to do good in their professional fields? Or do you feel that having them back in the public eye again (even with having made amends with the victims), would just rub salt in the victims' wounds?
Cathy, I have struggled with the same issues. I was so distressed to read of the suspension of James Levine who has lead the Metopera orchestra and helped so many over the decades, changed the way conductors behave with musicians...
That said, his alleged inappropriate conduct betrayed the youth who trusted him, parents who entrusted their children, the organizers of the special music camps for children, the donors who supported a worthy cause, the reputation of the organization, the loss of confidence by the supporters of the Metopera world-wide organization who are trying so hard to offer music and beauty...
The consequences are so profound for so many but especially for the children influenced for life as seeing themselves as unclean, unworthy,
losing trust in adults.
i rinse and repeat my understanding that even if anyone spoke up and complained earlier, their claims would be denied because people found it too painful to deal with such an issue so avoided it by any means possible. The Catholic Church is the perfect example of wrongs committed and denied within and without the church organization until awareness reached a certain level but that took centuries.
Power corrupts but is especially evil when those in denial enable it to first happen and then increase. I think the muddy rivers are being roiled with the sediment of inappropriate human behaviour being brought to the surface to be dealt with as it needs to be.
Moral leadership is desperately needed from each of us.
Williamsmith
12-6-17, 10:14am
I think the issue is much deeper than what you have pointed out. Employer/employee.....employee/victim......public trust......professional respect.... Hard to put a blanket statement regarding this out. I wouldn’t want to be in the public eye in this climate. It doesn’t take much to lose a career. But in most of these cases it seems one incident that is documented with evidence is an indicator of serial offending. Perhaps analogous to drunk driving.
BikingLady
12-6-17, 10:17am
edited as it was not on the topic posted
Williamsmith
12-6-17, 10:19am
I would like to add on a different introspective level....it is true for me that I am not disappointed when certain people I don’t really respect.....bite the dust this way. However, I get defensive when people I have admired get caught up or accused. Which to me only serves to highlight my human imperfection and immaturity. And I think certain....second chances...are born out of this unbalanced perspective...not out of true best interests of community.
"The Sex Pariah’s 6-Step Guide to Rehabilitation - POLITICO"
I like that approach.
https://apple.news/AOGLjdC_ATfSbvrX8JsHidA
I keep thinking I'll start a different thread on what I'm going to say. Being human........being a civilized human is really hard for many. IMHO, we are animals also. somewhere along the line, some decided to make laws that would appear to make society better (less like the animals)........even though our basic instincts are alive and well. Some of us can control them, and some of us can't. I never understood pedophilia or forcing sexuality on people, but I'm sure it happens all the time in the animal kingdom.
This is just a "what-if" question, I think about. What if we didn't make sex so bad and if you were approached sexually when you were younger, it wouldn't cause you life-long agony? Have all these "civilized" laws and mores we've made, caused some of our crime, mental/emotional disorders? I think about all the rules that have been made, to make us civilized................monogamy, lawful age of having sex with someone, etc.
I'm not anywhere near as good as some of you at articulating my questions/feelings. But I do think about things a lot, and have lots of questions.
Our culture seems to be the best at talking out of both sides of it's mouth at the same time. Look at all the violence and sex in the movies, media, etc. And yet we have so many laws against so much. I know if we want our civilization to stay civilized, we need rules and regulations. I'm just saying, we have very old, hardwired instincts that, for many in this particular society, are impossible to overcome.
I feel like I'm starting to ramble, so I'll stop.
It's not easy being human.
iris lilies
12-6-17, 11:12am
I keep thinking I'll start a different thread on what I'm going to say. Being human........being a civilized human is really hard for many. IMHO, we are animals also. somewhere along the line, some decided to make laws that would appear to make society better (less like the animals)........even though our basic instincts are alive and well. Some of us can control them, and some of us can't. I never understood pedophilia or forcing sexuality on people, but I'm sure it happens all the time in the animal kingdom.
This is just a "what-if" question, I think about. What if we didn't make sex so bad and if you were approached sexually when you were younger, it wouldn't cause you life-long agony? Have all these "civilized" laws and mores we've made, caused some of our crime, mental/emotional disorders? I think about all the rules that have been made, to make us civilized................monogamy, lawful age of having sex with someone, etc.
I'm not anywhere near as good as some of you at articulating my questions/feelings. But I do think about things a lot, and have lots of questions.
Our culture seems to be the best at talking out of both sides of it's mouth at the same time. Look at all the violence and sex in the movies, media, etc. And yet we have so many laws against so much. I know if we want our civilization to stay civilized, we need rules and regulations. I'm just saying, we have very old, hardwired instincts that, for many in this particular society, are impossible to overcome.
I feel like I'm starting to ramble, so I'll stop.
It's not easy being human.
Well, that is an interesting idea.
But I will disagree that because “we” make “sex so bad” that unwelcome advances cause lifelong trauma. It isnt “sex” in itself that is the problem, the central problem is violation of intimate boundaries, the secretiveness surround it and the attendant lying, and most importantly, the power differential between victim and perp. Any abuse be it sexual or otherwise points up the victim’s helplessness. It is the helplessness that haunts victims and sadness that no one came to their aid.
dado potato
12-6-17, 11:53am
What about second chances for persons who have behaved in a sexually inappropriate manner, given that they may still be able to produce something of value in their occupation (... What about employers warning them, rather than terminating them as employees)?
I do not know what Charlie Rose or Matt Lauer may or may not believe, but for discussion, let's assume they are willing to accept responsibility and to conform to expectations about participation in activities aimed at repair of themselves and others. Let us also assume they have access to a program similar to the RESTORE project in Pima County AZ which aims to foster a restorative justice response to sexual assault. As I understand RESTORE, there are supports for victims to minimize re-traumatization. The offender undergoes a rigorous psychosexual evaluation by a forensic examiner. Any agreement that emerges from victim-offender mediation can not call for less than minimum accountability (case manager supervision, therapy, monitoring by a volunteer community board, and community service).
If the preconditions and resources for restorative justice were obtainable, punishment or retribution against the offender by his employer would be of questionable value. That is a BIG IF.
For further reading:
Mary P. Koss and Mary Achilles, "Restorative Justice Responses to Sexual Assault", 2008, available at National Online Resource Center on Violence Against Women.
If the preconditions and resources for restorative justice were obtainable, punishment or retribution against the offender by his employer would be of questionable value. That is a BIG IF.
I disagree. From the employer's standpoint, the offender is a representative of their company. No employer wants to be associated with someone who hurts their brand so I don't believe the loss of a job reflects employer punishment, but rather an attempt to protect their image.
Cathy, whatever one chooses to do with their life, they choose it. If they choose to perpetuate inappropriate behaviour until called on it, they chose to perpetuate it. Unless, one is evaluated and found under vigorous examination as mentally incompetent, one is responsible for one's choices and actions.
It is heartbreaking to lose one's perception of an ideal expressed in someone but denial is a very questionable choice. Honour what is worthy and good but accept that people's actions show their feet of clay; accept that we all need boundaries and need to comply with them including our heroes and ourselves.
ApatheticNoMore
12-6-17, 12:46pm
I don't believe that everything that may fall under sexual harassment causes lifelong trauma or any more so than a lot of other stuff that is just part of life. I do believe that sexual abuse of children and teenagers, and rape of anyone, can cause lifelong trauma though. I'm not saying any sort of sexual harassment should be legal in the workplace but of course it's not (but proving anything in a court of law may be an uphill battle depending).
So yes sexual abuse of children and rape are really beyond the pale, but other things and losing jobs. Well the thing is Joe Schmoe who is not famous at all, can literally lose their job for anything, anything at all, the boss doesn't like they way they look at them or how they tie their shoes and they can lose their job. There is no protection, no recourse, no argument "but I didn't deserve to lose my job", even if that was 100% true and could 100% be proven to everyone's satisfaction (and good luck with that), they still have no case because "at will employment" means someone can be fired for just about any reason or absolutely no reason at all (except maybe protected category). But one does want to make an exception for uniquely talented people losing their entire careers, it may not be entirely fair, but I do too.
Teacher Terry
12-6-17, 12:59pm
Actions have consequences and they deserve to lose their jobs.
I am much more concerned with justice for the victims at this point than with second chances (probably more like tenth, fifteenth chances, etc.) for the perpetrators.
Chicken lady
12-6-17, 1:45pm
If you own a broadcasting company and you want to give them another chance, go for it. As has been stated, firing is not the same as criminal punishment.
iris lilies
12-6-17, 1:52pm
If you own a broadcasting company and you want to give them another chance, go for it. As has been stated, firing is not the same as criminal punishment.
I know, it seems odd that people arent getting that.
The court of public opinion is not, thankfully, an actual court. I would not want to be buffeted about in the court of public opinion.
Who gives these perps a second chance? Cathy A may do that by offering her opinion, and that is fine, we all get to make our own decisions and talk about them. So, she can lobby CBS or NBC or whatever network Lauer was on to take him back, that is her circle of influence.
I am on the side of the victims, I mean they just finally are getting heard after years or decades. It seems we can not jump as quickly to helping the people who were on the offending side. And it is about power more than sex. I was talking to someone last night, it is a large culture and so it will take a huge change that will affect everyone.
Restorative justice is a powerful process. It does take willingness on both parts. So a victim should be pressured into participating. I have even heard about RJ process where a proxy stood in for the victim and let the offender work out their part in it and take responsibility. In the justice system they do not get absolved or have any legal consequences changed however, it is simply to restore balance in the relationship and community.
Did you mean that a victim should NOT be pressured?
I am on the side of the victims, I mean they just finally are getting heard after years or decades. It seems we can not jump as quickly to helping the people who were on the offending side. And it is about power more than sex. I was talking to someone last night, it is a large culture and so it will take a huge change that will affect everyone.
Restorative justice is a powerful process. It does take willingness on both parts. So a victim should be pressured into participating. I have even heard about RJ process where a proxy stood in for the victim and let the offender work out their part in it and take responsibility. In the justice system they do not get absolved or have any legal consequences changed however, it is simply to restore balance in the relationship and community.
mschrisgo2
12-6-17, 3:05pm
[... the central problem is violation of intimate boundaries, the secretiveness surround it and the attendant lying, and most importantly, the power differential between victim and perp. Any abuse be it sexual or otherwise points up the victim’s helplessness. It is the helplessness that haunts victims and sadness that no one came to their aid.]
YES!! This. It is the abuse of the power over another person. If we could only move to equality...
Did you mean that a victim should NOT be pressured?
Correct, I would counsel and inform the victim about the process and reassure any concerns she or he has. Many victims feel it is a good process but if the offender is not able to fully take responsibility then it can re-victimize. If we are talking about 'power over' then the choice to participate cannot be a situation where the offender or others have power to pressure a victim into participating. Plus it just really isn't effective if everyone is not choosing to be there.
Giving this issue thoughtful consideration, perhaps the question could be rephrased. How can we honour the contribution of those who have done great good throughout their lives but made very inappropriate choices in behaviour that had terrible consequences? This is not just true about sexual abuse, BTW, although sexual abuse is unique in the violation of intimate boundaries.
As has been mentioned, being fired is not the same as being found guilty of a crime and imprisoned. In all the time that the individual has been doing good, he (mostly males) has been receiving recognition, rewards and having a very positive life experience. So often, the target of the inappropriate behaviour has not.
Recognition of that imbalance is helpful, IMO anyway.
Williamsmith
12-6-17, 6:23pm
Giving this issue thoughtful consideration, perhaps the question could be rephrased. How can we honour the contribution of those who have done great good throughout their lives but made very inappropriate choices in behaviour that had terrible consequences? This is not just true about sexual abuse, BTW, although sexual abuse is unique in the violation of intimate boundaries.
As has been mentioned, being fired is not the same as being found guilty of a crime and imprisoned. In all the time that the individual has been doing good, he (mostly males) has been receiving recognition, rewards and having a very positive life experience. So often, the target of the inappropriate behaviour has not.
Recognition of that imbalance is helpful, IMO anyway.
The positive body of work so to speak done by a man named Joe Paterno, Head Coach of the Penn State University football team did nothing to save him from his firing and removal of a statue in his honor and his subsequent death brought on by a broken heart over a matter of serial rape that occurred by his main assistant for many years. Some considered him a saint so if he received no such forgiveness.......well that is one very good example if there ever was one.
Once a pervert, usually always a pervert. Anthony Wiener was exposed (pardon the pun) and given a second chance and he offended again. Maybe jail will make him hit bottom and change.
I would only support a second chance after sufficient punishment like incarceration. Sexual predators and not low level drug offenders should be filling our jails. For instance I don't care how many great movies Roman Polanski made. When you drug and sodomize a 13 year old girl they should lock you up and throw away the key.
Last night I was driving home from Newark listening to the radio and the host was talking about how the top two TIME contenders for Person of the Year were Trump (again) and Colin Kaepernick, and the talk show topic was, which would you pick?
Well, TIME has spoken and the "PERSON OF THE YEAR" are the Silence Breakers
http://time.com/time-person-of-the-year-2017-silence-breakers-choice/
Good for TIME!! Great pick. This is a watershed moment for all those powerful people who believed they could get away with really bad behavior just because.. from now on, they better think twice.
Williamsmith
12-6-17, 8:41pm
Last night I was driving home from Newark listening to the radio and the host was talking about how the top two TIME contenders for Person of the Year were Trump (again) and Colin Kaepernick, and the talk show topic was, which would you pick?
Well, TIME has spoken and the "PERSON OF THE YEAR" are the Silence Breakers
http://time.com/time-person-of-the-year-2017-silence-breakers-choice/
Good for TIME!! Great pick. This is a watershed moment for all those powerful people who believed they could get away with really bad behavior just because.. from now on, they better think twice.
I disagree. Thanks to Colin, I do t waste my time watching meaningless football entertainment. But Time is simply trying to sell magazines. Trump would have sold just as many. Person of The Year should have been a woman, Nurse Alex Wubbels.
Once a pervert, usually always a pervert. Anthony Wiener was exposed (pardon the pun) and given a second chance and he offended again. Maybe jail will make him hit bottom and change.
I would only support a second chance after sufficient punishment like incarceration. Sexual predators and not low level drug offenders should be filling our jails. For instance I don't care how many great movies Roman Polanski made. When you drug and sodomize a 13 year old girl they should lock you up and throw away the key.
But like we've talked about in other threads about this..........not everyone who harrassed women are pedophiles and predators to the same horrible degree. I just want us to be able to understand the differences...........
ApatheticNoMore
12-7-17, 3:16am
I am very glad many workplaces have moved toward a zero tolerance policy toward sexual harassment. What exactly they do about it is probably dependent on internal HR policies.
I do know someone at a prior workplace who was almost certainly framed and falsely accused of sexual harassment and let go for that. I believe it was false because the accuser was suing the company for several things including discrimination, and seemed to have a learning disability that also made them unsuited for their job (I saw this first hand), HR had to build the case for years to let the accuser go just because of all the lawsuits they had launched. Really a sad situation all around for all involved, the accused for sure although with their skillsets I'm sure they got another job but still kinda sucks, and sad even for the accuser as it was sad in some ways they had a learning disability that made them unable to just do their chosen career at all without resorting to all the almost certainly frivolous lawsuits.
However I still think it's good that real sexual harassment is less tolerated in workplaces nowdays.
So no not all the situations of real sexual harassment (leaving aside any false accusations) are pedophiles and predators, it might just be lewd remarks or an instance of grabbiness, that doesn't really scar anyone for life anymore than a thousand things that are just part of normal existence and that we dismiss. However it shouldn't be part of the workplace and I'm glad it's being seen an unacceptable at work.
some of these people have contributed a lot to their profession. For example......Charlie Rose and all his great interviewing. Some people really liked Matt Lauer too.
For example, why couldn't we say to people like Charlie Rose, etc...........okay.......your behavior was totally unacceptable. We want you to express your bad behavior publicly and on the air at your job......and you will be given one more chance, since you have contributed some good things for so long.
It sounds like you think celebrities should get a pass. And no, I still don't think they should stay in their jobs. Imagine having had the courage to speak up against this, and then you go to work and the creep who called you into his office supposedly about work and locked the door and tried to assault you is still there, all he had to do was issue an apology, under duress and maybe not sincere, all your coworkers knew he got away with it, and because he's still there, powerful, and pulling down millions, instead of feeling supported and justified in coming forward you feel like the office snitch.
Just yesterday a woman was tearing up at work telling me how a coworker swore and screamed at her years ago and nothing was done. The woman is still in our group and the victim has to see her every day. At a previous job I was sworn at, screamed at, and had papers grown at me also with nothing done to the perpetrator and I will never forget that, and these are nowhere near as bad violations as sexual assault.
There are degrees but they are all unacceptable behaviors that should have zero tolerance. How can you claim that "grabbiness" hasn't scarred someone? Who made you the judge and jury of the victim's experience, that you can say it's "normal experience"? Normalizing this behavior is why so many people have been afraid to speak out before now.
Yppj..........I think a lot about everything, from all angles..........so please don't think my questions imply some sort of stand I have on anything. I just can't get my mind to stop thinking about so many things, from different viewpoints.
Absolutely, I DON'T think celebrities should get a pass. Nothing is black and white. Nothing. And so I spend a lot of time in those shades in between........trying to sort things out.
This country is getting just too complicated for me. So many people with so many needs, demands, egos, etc. It's really hard to sort a lot of it out.
dado potato
12-7-17, 10:31am
(Chiming in)
The topic of this thread is a question. In my view it is a good and timely question. The question in the Original Post was a "seeking opinion" type of question. Also it is a question which triggered a wide range of responses. People can agree to disagree. All to the good!
I did not read the question as "rhetorical"... I did not look at the question as though it implied a stand CathyA would take on the issue. "Seek, and ... on a good day... ye shall find." <with a wink and a nod>
goldensmom
12-7-17, 10:52am
(Chiming in)
The topic of this thread is a question. In my view it is a good and timely question. The question in the Original Post was a "seeking opinion" type of question. Also it is a question which triggered a wide range of responses. People can agree to disagree. All to the good!
I did not read the question as "rhetorical"... I did not look at the question as though it implied a stand CathyA would take on the issue. "Seek, and ... on a good day... ye shall find." <with a wink and a nod>
I think everyone should be given a second chance but that does not negate experiencing the consequences of ones actions, consequences based on facts and not opinions or emotion. You reap what you sow but those who show mercy will be shown mercy.
Seems to me like a lot of these guys were given many chances in their lives -very good opportunities and they blew it by behaving inappropriately again and again. We can all agree that women in particular have been exploited as it has been societally accepted for years. I think a corner has been turned for the perpetrators and our culture. At least I hope.
ApatheticNoMore
12-7-17, 1:04pm
Just yesterday a woman was tearing up at work telling me how a coworker swore and screamed at her years ago and nothing was done. The woman is still in our group and the victim has to see her every day. At a previous job I was sworn at, screamed at, and had papers grown at me also with nothing done to the perpetrator and I will never forget that, and these are nowhere near as bad violations as sexual assault.
they aren't even illegal. All this behavior is legal, there is no case here. My last job was one where I felt I was completely regressed into childhood (an abusive childhood natch) by the behavior of people (well really mostly one person), but I knew they held all the power in the organization compared to me and I had none. I knew 100% how the power dynamics would play out. So now I'm unemployed, but life goes on, what can you do, look for work, do whatever else seems productive as well. Somedays I feel so weak and hardly able to deal with what the adult world is at all, but noone can surrender to that feeling for long. There is no legal case as it was mere verbal bullying which isn't illegal. Try to claim workers comp for emotional injury, oh yea do that and have a hard time working again, you don't want to do that.
And everything is subjective anyway, I couldn't handle their really rough unpredictable personality, I never knew when or why they would be upset with me, which scared me, and regressed me back to childhood emotionally where my dad would start throwing things in rage. OTOH mean emails are NOT ILLEGAL. And though I kept trying to get work done in difficult emotional conditions at work despite whatever anxiety and depression this caused me (going to the gym helped keep my mood more steady through all this so I was emotionally resilient), but I did make mistakes at work, the type a company that wants to keep an employee forgives and one that doesn't doesn't. Period. There is no black and white in things like mere verbal bullying, everything can be somewhat subjective especially if it's mostly written communication, and none of it is illegal regardless. And there is ALWAYS, nearly always, a "reason" to fire an employee "for cause" if they want, as employees are not perfect, and so if you want to fire them you just bide time for them to make a mistake which being human they probably will. When they falsely accused me of mistakes I didn't make and I could prove as much, I predicted that "I've probably won for now (sometimes they didn't seem to care what the facts were at all, but this time they seemed to acquiesce), but ... someday I really would make an actual mistake". And of course I did. This person had gone on vendettas to get people fired and gossiped about it the whole time I was there (no it wasn't even a manager but they could pull strings). Several times I told my bf, "I don't know what is going on in this workplace, it's like nowhere I've ever worked, I feel almost like I'm being framed". Well that's how it may feel, and it may have made it very hard to work there while I did, but there is no case there at all.
There are degrees but they are all unacceptable behaviors that should have zero tolerance. How can you claim that "grabbiness" hasn't scarred someone? Who made you the judge and jury of the victim's experience, that you can say it's "normal experience"?
I said it probably didn't scar someone any more than normal life experiences. Say one is laid off in a mass lay off in say the great recession and is unemployed a long time. THAT experience probably scars people at a FAR deeper level than a single grab, but we call it normal adult life experience and are extremely indifferent. So I was just saying let's be real and keep some context about all that adult life actually is. But it doesn't mean I'm not glad there are policies against grabbiness. Because not everything can be policy, but I think they have done a good job with sexual harassment laws (the enforcement part I woudln't know).
I agree emotional abuse is horrible, but I don't see our culture stopping it until we first clean up the physical and sexual abuse that most people including me find more egregious.
So I was just watching Jefferson Airplane on American Bandstand and one of the recommended videos from youtube was this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZMQU4c1pEg
Roy Moore could have written this song...
"Well she was just 17, if you know what I mean
The way she looked was way beyond compare...
How could I dance with another? wooo! when I saw her standing there?"
Cultures evolve - and some don't. Moore's defenders are correct that Mary was a teenager when she married Joseph - and there are still child marriages in the Middle East. The widower Benedict Arnold, around Moore's age at the time of his pursuit of teenagers, met and wooed the 17 year old who became his second wife.
Before it was acceptable for a powerful man to force a woman into his harem. It was accepted that masters raped their slaves. Polygamy including with under age wives was accepted.
But surely we want to move forward as a society. Jefferson Airplane was founded in 1965. Think of all the groups in this country still marginalized at that time much more so than they are now over 50 years later.
My great-grandfather was sixty when he married his second wife. She was eighteen. They went on to have four (or was it five?) children. He died in his garden (like the Godfather) when he was ninety. It's perfectly natural for men to be drawn to adolescents from a biological standpoint, IMO. But we have laws and community standards, and forcing oneself on someone who's essentially a child at fourteen crosses the line. Other than that particular offense, Moore's hebephilia doesn't bother me as much as the rest of his package. Pun intended.
My paternal grandparents married at 21 and 14, then spent the next 65 years together. Times change.
My great-grandfather was sixty when he married his second wife. She was eighteen. They went on to have four (or was it five?) children. He died in his garden (like the Godfather) when he was ninety. It's perfectly natural for men to be drawn to adolescents from a biological standpoint, IMO. But we have laws and community standards, and forcing oneself on someone who's essentially a child at fourteen crosses the line. Other than that particular offense, Moore's hebephilia doesn't bother me as much as the rest of his package. Pun intended.
You said what I've been thinking too........about society and how we make things wrong/immoral/illegal, etc. Girls start being able to conceive at 10-12 years. Men can produce viable sperm forever. We have so many instincts that we are out of touch with, and society makes rules and determines what's "right" and what's "wrong", without even thinking about instinct. As usual, I'm not making a judgement (for the most part) on people's leanings. I'm just explaining why some things might happen.
I'm just constantly trying to understand why things happen. It can get pretty weird for me though..........knowing that men who are attracted to younger women are considered evil and branded as pediphiles.........when it might be just instinctual.
As everything, there is a continuum. Some people who commit a "sexual" wrong can fall anywhere from the total left of the continuum, and some who fall totally on the right........but we lump it all together as the same thing. We're harder on some of these people than we are to people who commit horrendous crimes. I don't know what the answer is. There's just too many people for the government/society to know the true mind and behavior of each "perp".........so we treat everyone the same.
Like Sen. Franken stepping down..........versus Moore or even Trump. It's all pretty crazy.
Yes, I could say that being sexual with a young child isn't good...........but how can we brand someone a pedophile for life, if they were 18 and had sex with their 16 year old girlfriend?
I wish we could get a little more control of that pendulum.........that always swings too far in the opposite direction of whatever made it swing too far in the other direction.
I'm rambling. I wish I could stop thinking for awhile and just take a rest........ But the direction of this society, in so many areas, is making my mind run on over-drive. I think I smell smoke.
I think a lot of people feel in certain situations strong instinctual anger. Think of expressions like "I was so mad I could have killed him" or "I'm going to kill him when he gets home". But thankfully most of us limit this to a figure of speech and don't murder people.
Our species rules the planet because we are able to control our instincts for the collective good of society.
So society should permit harems because that is a call of nature in animals to have a herd of females? Are the males going to compete to death for control of the herd of females? So puberty-aged boys should be able to experiment with their younger sisters? Who is going to define the boundaries?
Civilization is the mastering of the animal instinct, IMO, not the servant.
I'm not saying that. I'm just trying to explain why we're where we're at. I don't think it will all work. I think mankind might be at an end-game. To me, homo sapiens don't even belong on this planet.......they seem to be so destructive, compared to the other beings. Yes, I'm very pessimistic about our future..........
Cathy, I do appreciate what you are exploring and trying to understand but I have had this discussion a number of times and it keeps coming back to "who defines the boundaries?" and "who enforces the boundaries?" Self-government is a large part of the answer and asking if one is being governed by self-gratification or caring for the well-being of another?
ApatheticNoMore
12-9-17, 1:32pm
In actual human life in actual society I don't think sex instinct is any more important than power relations in determining human behavior.
An 18 year old with a 16 year old girlfriend are basically the same age or close enough that it's probably not a difference worth splitting, there may be a power imbalance if one is a rock star or something, but two high school students, not particularly. But society doesn't know any better way to handle it than have an age of consent, and frankly neither do I particularly. We could have a policy that went a lot lighter on the offense if the ages were within 2 years or something maybe, but I think it would require a far more nuanced understanding than is likely to happen soon.
However you want to talk power relations: Monica Lewinsky will Bill Clinton, no minors involved, but serious power imbalance. So it was voluntary. I don't think it should be illegal. But at the same time it's really in many ways not right (oh not right to Hillary I suppose either of course, but even just in itself, it is abuse of power). He had so much more power than her it wasn't funny, the age difference was a whole lot of it, I don't think people of vastly desperate ages where one is still quite young can ever be an equal relationship, but in that case one was President as well :laff: Hope noone makes this about Bill Clinton's policies, it was just the most obvious example I could think of, but I think with vast age differences it's never an equal partnership if one is really young.
Men and their instincts and their perspectives are the only voice we hear year upon years upon years (are the only voice I have heard overwhelmingly all my life even). Their perspectives on sex and their perspectives on the workplace and their perspectives on what is important and should be the goals of life etc.. It is all we ever hear. They tell almost all the stories in this society. What might happen eventually is we start to hear women. I'm not saying every accusation is necessarily true or anything (although when there are dozens probability ...), in a court of law both must be considered of course (it's just hard for the average person to see the employment contract as such, as it's simply not!) But I don't need to hear how things are for men "in general", I know, I know it sometimes better than I know myself.
I'm Gen X, I feel like we never had any feminist exposure except that we were supposed to have equal job opportunities (which is ok, certainly nothing wrong with that), but feminists are sometimes like a breath of fresh air, as mostly it's a man's world, we just live in it.
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