View Full Version : Lopsided relationships?
As of late I have noticed some acquaintances have seemed to have found love & happiness in some rather lopsided relationships. And as I observe them I wonder...
-Are they sustainable?
-Does one of them have an ulterior motive?
-Is entering into a very lopsided relationship an act of desperation?
Here are a couple of the more illustrative scenarios:
P (the guy) and C (the gal)--
P has a PHD in chemistry (and a BS and two masters' degrees) and has a really good, high paying job working in the chemical/pharmaceutical industry. He speaks two languages fluently and is an Army veteran. He has his own very nice apartment, a really fancy car, is well-traveled, no kids, never married before, and is 38. His girlfriend C (my acquaintance) has just a high school diploma. She works as an administrative assistant at a college here in town. She makes perhaps $30k a year. She is currently enrolled in community college and is 32 years old. She has considerable debt and very bad credit.
Both P and C are of average looks.
But P and C seem to really adore each other -- they give each other little surprises, they go on real dates, they spend most of their free time together, and they are both quite happy with their physical intimacy.
J & S --
S is my friend from back in college who I still keep in touch with. She is a successful immigration attorney in TX. She has her own place that is nicely furnished with all the creature comforts. She has a nice car, two dogs she spoils, and a great circle of friends. She is 37. J is a Mexican immigrant (undocumented/no papers). He works as a waiter. He does not have a car. He has only a few suitcases worth of stuff. They informally live together and according to S, J cooks (and well!) and he cleans the apartment. He also takes good care of her dogs. He works steadily and is enrolled to start community college. S will be paying his tuition for the most part. She says the physical intimacy is great and she is emotionally fulfilled, as J makes her feel "pretty and special." S is plus-size. J is muscular and lean.
Thoughts?
As of late I have noticed some acquaintances have seemed to have found love & happiness in some rather lopsided relationships. And as I observe them I wonder...
-Are they sustainable?
-Does one of them have an ulterior motive?
-Is entering into a very lopsided relationship an act of desperation?
My idea of hell is marrying someone just like me.
I was just talking to my son about this last night and I told him that marrying someone exactly like you is like two people standing on the same end of a seesaw. You need balance. You gain insight from each other's differences.
I am college grad, high-earning in pharmaceutical industry, very moderate habits, quite introverted, and bleeding-heart liberal
DH is a high school grad, worked in video production but doesn't work at all now, has "extreme" habits like smoking and drinking, very extroverted, and wears a "Make America Great Again" hat.
Our marriage has been sustainable for 40 years.
No ulterior motives other than to continue to have fun in each others' company
"Lopsided" is the wrong word. I would call it "balanced"
My idea of hell is marrying someone just like me.
I was just talking to my son about this last night and I told him that marrying someone exactly like you is like two people standing on the same end of a seesaw. You need balance. You gain insight from each other's differences.
I am college grad, high-earning in pharmaceutical industry, very moderate habits, quite introverted, and bleeding-heart liberal
DH is a high school grad, worked in video production but doesn't work at all now, has "extreme" habits like smoking and drinking, very extroverted, and wears a "Make America Great Again" hat.
Our marriage has been sustainable for 40 years.
No ulterior motives other than to continue to have fun in each others' company
"Lopsided" is the wrong word. I would call it "balanced"
Note. But what you call balanced I think would be a nightmare of perpetual disagreement!
Note. But what you call balanced I think would be a nightmare of perpetual disagreement!
True, you do have to pick your battles sometimes, but I like Kahlil Gibran's image of "the pillars of the temple stand apart and the oak tree and the cypress grow not in each other's shadow"--so, disagree if you must, but give each other space to do their thing and then MYOB.
Chicken lady
1-6-18, 10:12am
My impression of what your assessment is:
”I consider the following relationships lopsided because one person brings far more of the things I consider valuable to the table than the other person does.”
True? That is all about you and nothing about them.
here is what makes a relationship work:
person A values set X in a partner
person B values set Y in a partner
the intersection of sets Xand Y can be the empty set, or they can be identical. The important thing is that person B brings enough of set X to satisfy person A, and person A brings enough of set Y to satisfy person B.
it is important that you come to understand that, so that if a beautiful, successful, atheist, woman of color without stuff or kids ever shows interest in you, you can accept that you might actually be what she is looking for. Because currently, I predict you would shoot yourself in the foot.
Ultralight
1-6-18, 10:17am
I predict you would shoot yourself in the foot.
Elaborate.
It interests me that your comparisons are being made largely on the basis of "stuff" (or not having it) and not on what the partners see in each other (admittedly, much less visible/knowable). Could it be that, for them, what the partner brings to the relationship and how they fill their soul matters more than how much they make or whether they live in a nice neighborhood? Granted, inferences can be made from the backgrounds and personality attributes that make those incomes and possessions (im)possible. But much less of what makes a relationship sustainable is easily seen from outside (and without deeper knowledge about the partners).
Tie this to your other post in this thread: famous minimalists are both partnered with non-minimalists. There must be something to those relationships that goes beyond what either partner owns or does not own.
Chicken lady
1-6-18, 10:42am
Many times you have commented on not having a lot to offer based on not having things to offer that you would want. I think that if you found yourself in a position of being able to date your dream woman (or a close approximation) you would not trust the relationship due to feeling it was “lopsided” and believing that she either must have some ulterior motive or would come to her senses. Not trusting the relationship generally leads to holding back from it and exhibiting behaviors that cause it to end. (It doesn’t feel like he’s committed to this, maybe he’s not really into me, he talks about the money aspect a lot, maybe i’m Just a sugar momma, I should find someone who cares about ME...)
iris lilies
1-6-18, 10:47am
The first couple, P and C, sound like a traditional couple from Ozzie and Harriet times. If they want to have children, the wife’s earning potential isnt of much value since they may do the stay at home mom thing.
The second couple sounds more modern in this real world, reality of it is difficult to nurture two power career people in a relationship. High earning career jobs are not so plentiful that two can often get them. And maintaining duo high profile careers is hard on a marriage. I would really wonder, though, about her status as an attorney and harboring this guy who is breaking laws, surely that could affect her law license? Perhpas it is very low risk.
A young woman we know who is an orthopedic surgeon pulling down $350,000 annual salary just married a well educated but low paid guy who works in the nonprofit world. He may make $35,000 or there abouts.
She wants to have children, and he will be a good father and will stay home with the kids.
The 38yo woman who was renting the house we bought here had a PhD and teaches at the prestigious private college nearby. Her live in boyfriend was a 50yo waiter and had a recent felony conviction for domestic violence with a lengthy probation. Now that was one relationship we always wondered about as it seems it would jeopardize her moving up in the academic world.
Chicken lady
1-6-18, 11:07am
My Dd has a very good job. She bought her husband a car. They bought a house. She did not have to clean anything in the house. She tosses her dirty clothes on the floor and “they magically appear clean in (her) closet”. Her dh recently got a full time job and she is sad because “I had to clean up the kitchen!” And “he actually likes his job. He is messing with my life plan! Daycare is expensive!”
Their relationship drives my father insane, because not only is her dh “unmanly” he is enabling my Dd to be “unfeminine”
It interests me that your comparisons are being made largely on the basis of "stuff" (or not having it) and not on what the partners see in each other (admittedly, much less visible/knowable). Could it be that, for them, what the partner brings to the relationship and how they fill their soul matters more than how much they make or whether they live in a nice neighborhood?
Maybe the actual goal of being not so attached to our stuff goes both ways, that having a lot or a little is not as important as the relationship to the stuff. Stuff includes earnings and material objects but also degrees and prestige. You can be loosely attached to a Phd, or be so caught up in whatever your education is that you see everything through that lens. Same with money and stuff. I also have realized over the years that you can wear minimalism like a badge as much as your stuff, My best friend is a minimalist which is great. She went through a bad divorce, lived in a crappy studio apartment and still has very little materially. However she is pretty content with things, does a lot of hiking, enjoys things, and doesn't talk about stuff all the time or judge people based on it. She has a good relationship with her boyfriend she lives with, he is also not a big stuff person but there are differences.
It is interesting to note what you used to define lopsided. You didn't pick political or social views, or age, or race. They are either very similar or not an issue you would see as a challenge. For me I would see some of the financial differences as an issue in the dating stages, one person is interested in a nice restaurant meal and the other a picnic, but in a committed stage those differences are often taken care of with shared finances and understanding. If I was in a committed relationship with someone who earned less, and we needed to go to a fancy event then of course I would buy him an outfit for example. On a day to day basis splitting bills would be equitable, and include more than our income. I am financially conservative so I would not get along with someone who didn't like savings accounts regardless of their income.
For the lopsided I would have chosen different factors, things like openness as compared to control, flexibility as compared to structure, individuality as compared to partnered or group focus. I think that for me these things would come up very early in a relationship and spell doom early on. So someone who wants to do everything together would be hard for me to deal with, or someone who wanted to do everything alone and just have me off to the side. I could be with a person with different beliefs who had a high level of openness as well, or someone who earned a lot more (not many people earning less) but who was flexible, put people above stuff, and valued social engagement.
So I don't see the lopsided when I look at these couples from my point of view, but I am sure they get a lot of people looking at them for the reasons you stated.
I think everything in your Universe is telling you to be more open minded, and not keep looking for a clone of yourself. >8)
I think everything in your Universe is telling you to be more open minded, and not keep looking for a clone of yourself. >8)
I must agree,
ZG, I'm not sure your post was directed at me (despite the pull quote).
My point to UL was that what he defined as lopsided seemed to center around income, socioeconomic status, or possessions, and not around less-visible personality traits that the partners sought to reinforce or complement. I agree that it would say something about me that I was able to complete a law degree and pass the bar exam and now could choose to (and did) spend my money on a nice new car rather than keep driving the old Dodge. But the car eventually will die. So healthy relationships will depend on what's beneath how people "vote" with their time and money, and that is far less knowable than where someone lives or their preference for new name-brand clothing. Maybe the new car is the bauble of the moment and it goes back as soon as the lease is up. Maybe it's a grand vehicle but it will be driven into the ground just like the Dodge. Maybe the Dodge couldn't carry the kayak that's the preferred hobby. I just think it's risky to compare our insides with someone else's outsides.
My impression of what your assessment is:
”I consider the following relationships lopsided because one person brings far more of the things I consider valuable to the table than the other person does.”
True? That is all about you and nothing about them.
here is what makes a relationship work:
person A values set X in a partner
person B values set Y in a partner
the intersection of sets Xand Y can be the empty set, or they can be identical. The important thing is that person B brings enough of set X to satisfy person A, and person A brings enough of set Y to satisfy person B.
it is important that you come to understand that, so that if a beautiful, successful, atheist, woman of color without stuff or kids ever shows interest in you, you can accept that you might actually be what she is looking for. Because currently, I predict you would shoot yourself in the foot.
Don't forget the intoxicating substance prohibition. I totally did.
iris lilies
1-6-18, 11:58am
... I just think it's risky to compare our insides with someone else's outsides.
This strikes me as very wise.
The 38yo woman who was renting the house we bought here had a PhD and teaches at the prestigious private college nearby. Her live in boyfriend was a 50yo waiter and had a recent felony conviction for domestic violence with a lengthy probation. Now that was one relationship we always wondered about as it seems it would jeopardize her moving up in the academic world.
Or reaching 40, for that matter...
This strikes me as very wise.
Me, too!
ZG, I'm not sure your post was directed at me (despite the pull quote).
My point to UL was that what he defined as lopsided seemed to center around income, socioeconomic status, or possessions, and not around less-visible personality traits that the partners sought to reinforce or complement. I agree that it would say something about me that I was able to complete a law degree and pass the bar exam and now could choose to (and did) spend my money on a nice new car rather than keep driving the old Dodge. But the car eventually will die. So healthy relationships will depend on what's beneath how people "vote" with their time and money, and that is far less knowable than where someone lives or their preference for new name-brand clothing. Maybe the new car is the bauble of the moment and it goes back as soon as the lease is up. Maybe it's a grand vehicle but it will be driven into the ground just like the Dodge. Maybe the Dodge couldn't carry the kayak that's the preferred hobby. I just think it's risky to compare our insides with someone else's outsides.
Yes Steve, I think WHY we choose something is more telling then WHAT the thing is. So I wouldn't write off someone with a large house and a nice car any more than I would write off someone with a small apartment and old car. Now I would steer clear of someone who talked constantly about how much or how little they had and why. Tell me about kayak and the activity more than the vehicle that carries it, new or old. Does that make sense?
I think everything in your Universe is telling you to be more open minded, and not keep looking for a clone of yourself. >8)
The universe is hostile to me.
And... I am only looking for an intellectual and ideological clone of myself. Physically I want someone quite different than me!
The 38yo woman who was renting the house we bought here had a PhD and teaches at the prestigious private college nearby. Her live in boyfriend was a 50yo waiter and had a recent felony conviction for domestic violence with a lengthy probation. Now that was one relationship we always wondered about as it seems it would jeopardize her moving up in the academic world.
You are so judgmental! ;)
Let me tell you more about S and J. S loves to watch TV and loves stand-up comedy too. She is a social justice warrior to the Nth degree. Her parents are from Mexico but she was born in the US. She is a feminist and is bisexual.
J is apolitical but would support any candidate that S would support, especially one who wants to make it easier for him to become a citizen. He is very easy-going, very go-with-the-flow. J is Catholic, but not hardcore. S is atheist.
P is moderate politically. C is liberal. P loves Star Wars. C is new to Star Wars but is open to getting into it. Neither P or C is religious. Neither P nor C want to have kids. C is captain of Team No Kids and says stuff like: "I got about a half dozen IUDs up in me just to be on the safe side!"
ApatheticNoMore
1-6-18, 3:08pm
P (the guy) and C (the gal)--
P has a PHD in chemistry (and a BS and two masters' degrees) and has a really good, high paying job working in the chemical/pharmaceutical industry. He speaks two languages fluently and is an Army veteran. He has his own very nice apartment, a really fancy car, is well-traveled, no kids, never married before, and is 38. His girlfriend C (my acquaintance) has just a high school diploma. She works as an administrative assistant at a college here in town. She makes perhaps $30k a year. She is currently enrolled in community college and is 32 years old. She has considerable debt and very bad credit.
Both P and C are of average looks.
But P and C seem to really adore each other -- they give each other little surprises, they go on real dates, they spend most of their free time together, and they are both quite happy with their physical intimacy.
is she paying her own way? And I don't think this is impossible on $30k a year in Ohio, so if she's not she probably could be (and probably should be imo). If so what is the problem? But he is more educated. Yes in a narrow field. Is there some vast chance he is going to find another partner to talk physics with if that's what he wants otherwise? NO. Unless he dated just physics grads or at least just science grads, so talking shop is probably what he would have to do with others that his life partner regardless. So again what is the problem?
Look I have a pretty big problem with actually having another person pay one's way, I think that is generally unhealthy except in unusual circumstances (and no of course I don't include government programs for those who qualify, I mean another *individual*). But all the rest is just classist elitist BS. Now I have no problem with people seeking someone more like them if that is what they actually want either (having personal preference isn't so much the classists elitist part, if someone only likes blonds or asians or whatever, narrow but shrug, it's judging what seem like other people's good relationships on stupid standards that is classist and elitist).
"...they adore each other..." "...emotionally fulfilled..." THAT is what matters. All the rest is just... Stuff.
But before those things can happen, people have to spend time together, get to know each other, be open minded, tolerant, giving, receiving, listening, sharing, learning.
And fall in love in the process.
I think it really is that simple, and simultaneously, that complex. It's not logical and neat, there really is no formula. There may be a deal breaker or two at the outset, but not many.
I also think, though you aren't asking here UA, that your fundamental stumbling block is depression. Might I suggest you pursue "Natural alternatives to drugs"?
Chicken lady
1-6-18, 3:35pm
Financially, i’m a kept woman.
Based on my income - and it is currently a lifetime high - I qualify for everything the government provides.
i’m not sure what I provide to Alan that makes it more palatable to ApatheticNoMore for him to support me than for dh to do so (far more happily and in much better style)
"...they adore each other..." "...emotionally fulfilled..." THAT is what matters. All the rest is just... Stuff.
But before those things can happen, people have to spend time together, get to know each other, be open minded, tolerant, giving, receiving, listening, sharing, learning.
And fall in love in the process.
I think it really is that simple, and simultaneously, that complex. It's not logical and neat, there really is no formula. There may be a deal breaker or two at the outset, but not many.
I also think, though you aren't asking here UA, that your fundamental stumbling block is depression. Might I suggest you pursue "Natural alternatives to drugs"?
I smoked marijuana a number of times in my teen years. It turned me into a raging a-hole -- getting in fights and such. No thanks!
ApatheticNoMore
1-6-18, 3:41pm
i’m not sure what I provide to Alan that makes it more palatable to ApatheticNoMore for him to support me than for dh to do so (far more happily and in much better style)
I think it's pretty obvious, the cost of government benefits are widespread, we all pay for them if and when we pay taxes. Expecting an single lone individual to take that on is usually an incredible burden to them in a way that taxes aren't as the cost that is spread out (I mean let's be real taxes as they actually exist, aren't that much of a burden to anyone in reality, though we might prefer and be richer if we didn't have to pay them).
Also depending on government benefits (and they aren't easy to qualify for but say one is disabled or poor or qualifies for unemployment temporarily etc.) doesn't require we entwine our life with another for financial reasons, we are still free to make our choices in life and especially our most important social and dating choices, without being twisted and corrupted by financial reasons (if we work we may experience some dependency on this or that job, but other than money we generally don't have ANY other relationship with a job).
I'm unemployed, I could consider the possibility of letting my bf (who is not rich btw) support me WHILE I LOOK FOR WORK, but I have weighed how destructive it would be for me psychologically to do so. I need to be my own woman, really I do, it is what is mentally healthy for me for sure. If I had some horrible disease and was dead broke would I let my bf or my mom (who is not rich either by which I mean she is fairly poor living much on SS) support me. Heck yes, but only until I could get on disability!
Chicken lady
1-6-18, 3:57pm
Ah. See, I am fortunate that I am able to entwine my life with dh’s for non financial reasons (although the goal to be the stay at home mom he wanted for his kids was a big draw - back in the day when I had a job and he didn’t and I married and supported him - lol!)
and thanks to dh success in his his chosen field, I am also able to entwine my life with my job for non financial reasons.
dh chooses to support me, and Alan would prefer not to, so we all win!
Chicken lady
1-6-18, 4:29pm
Also, I apparently have a different values system, because there have been times I found myself short on food or without housing and deliberately chose not to turn to public services because I have a family that would have helped me at a “price” I found unacceptable, and I see public services as a resource for those who have no other options. (Or “it is wrong for me to expect Alan to finance my ability to stand on my beliefs”)
Also, I apparently have a different values system, because there have been times I found myself short on food or without housing and deliberately chose not to turn to public services because I have a family that would have helped me at a “price” I found unacceptable, and I see public services as a resource for those who have no other options. (Or “it is wrong for me to expect Alan to finance my ability to stand on my beliefs”)
Topic drift...
Let's keep on task here. haha
Williamsmith
1-6-18, 5:37pm
Topic drift...
Let's keep on task here. haha
My marriage is like a circular Venn Diagram. Yours can be too some day.
Let's keep on task here. haha
Right. The task at hand is UL trolling the rest of us. You keep telling us you're lonely etc, but then when we give concrete ideas on how you could make the situation different, you are flippant. Or have very quick reasons why nothing anyone suggests will work. And then you do it all the next week, and get us going again.
I've been financially independent from a young age, and pretty quickly realized it wasn't fair to expect someone else to subsidize me. So far, I haven't had to approach Alan hat in hand, and I don't expect to. Works for me.
Right. The task at hand is UL trolling the rest of us. You keep telling us you're lonely etc, but then when we give concrete ideas on how you could make the situation different, you are flippant. Or have very quick reasons why nothing anyone suggests will work. And then you do it all the next week, and get us going again.
I am not trolling you or anyone.
1. I am going back to my shrink as I have not been there in months
2. I noted I was dealing with the health issues, so I am working on those (I am finally cleared to exercise rigorously again, I have also committed to eating raw and/or steamed veggies every day, which I am doing like a champ, I am also going to my doctor appointments, etc.)
3. I am broadening my preferences to include demographics I would have otherwise largely ignored
4. I am actively seeking out at hobby that comes with frequent activity and built-in socializing because numerous people on here suggested this. But I don't think I will hit a home run when I first get to bat. It is likely going to take several at-bats.
5. I am actively trying to dig myself out of this depression by cleaning up my dang apartment, cleaning my car, getting lunch or dinner with acquaintances, attending some atheist activities, calling old college and grad school friends to catch up, getting out for a little fresh air (even though it freezes my lungs), and so on.
UA, you misunderstood my comment. I was not teferring to marijuana, at all. I was thinking more along the lines of st johns wort, vitamin D, etc. Alternatively, you could have low thyroid, which has same symptoms. Google holistuc approaches to depression.
UA, you misunderstood my comment. I was not teferring to marijuana, at all. I was thinking more along the lines of st johns wort, vitamin D, etc. Alternatively, you could have low thyroid, which has same symptoms. Google holistuc approaches to depression.
Which of those is evidence based (besides Vitamin D, which I take 1000 IU daily from November 1 until April 1)?
The thyroid thing makes me wonder, as my mom had a thyroid disease.
But my physicals and blood work come back normal. I have had high blood pressure for a few months now, which is worrisome. And I don't know why either...
I think UL has possibly never been totally head over heels in love. And perhaps The Minimalists are, which is why they've compromised a bit, according to UL. You have a mental list of wants and dealbreakers which could exclude your potential perfect partner. And, IMO, stay in relationships that don't feel right for you for too long because of the physical compatibility.
The no kids rule is important, but so what if they're not so minimalist? People in love and in serious relationships can compromise and make it work. Women usually come with more stuff than men---get over it.
I'm speaking as someone who hasn't been head over heels in love, but have loved someone in the past. He has come into my life again and although he's a great guy, adores me, and would probably change his life to fit into mine, I just don't get that "He's the one" feeling. In many ways, on paper he's great. But if that's what I followed, I wouldn't be happy with him.
From other posts, I get the feeling that you haven't truly been in love with your recent gfs. As many posters have said, their partners are sometimes totally opposite from them, but they love them and it works. Life may not be exactly as they'd like, but they love each other.
Gosh, I sound like a Hallmark card.
mschrisgo2
1-6-18, 10:09pm
Which of those is evidence based (besides Vitamin D, which I take 1000 IU daily from November 1 until April 1)?
The thyroid thing makes me wonder, as my mom had a thyroid disease.
But my physicals and blood work come back normal. I have had high blood pressure for a few months now, which is worrisome. And I don't know why either...
No, I will not do your research for you. You really do need to help yourself. Everything anyone suggests, you immediately discount.
Low thyroid can absolutely cause high blood pressure. Depending on your age, how thorough the doctor's evaluation was, whether or not thyroid testing was actually included in your blood work, which depends a lot on your doctor's philosophy - yeah, see, even the practice of medicine has many variables... Do your research. Help yourself.
Yes Steve, I think WHY we choose something is more telling then WHAT the thing is. So I wouldn't write off someone with a large house and a nice car any more than I would write off someone with a small apartment and old car. Now I would steer clear of someone who talked constantly about how much or how little they had and why. Tell me about kayak and the activity more than the vehicle that carries it, new or old. Does that make sense?
What you've written makes sense to me as a statement/concept. I'm still trying to figure out how it applies to what I wrote about UL's OP.
My perception is that most of what I read in the OP centered on the "what" more than the "why". There was much recounting of salaries (or low hourly wages) and possessions and not nearly enough about things UL is unlikely to be able to know about the partnerships (since he really knows some things about only one half of each couple). The dynamics of the relationships are not available to him (as the dynamics of our own relationships are very rarely fully available to anyone else outside the relationship). My argument, if you will, is that UL is not being told about the activity behind the kayak; he's only writing that he sees the kayak. He doesn't know the import of the kayak or the vehicle carrying it.
I know couples who own all the toys -- big house, electronic gadgets, fancy new cars, cabin, boat, jewelry. On the outside they look quite prosperous. But I know they're pretty much covering the debt payments and haven't saved a nickel for retirement. All the "ownership" and the willingness to spend money that way tells me something about them as people. But it does not illustrate to me what all that ownership means to the two of them; what needs it fills in the space of their partnership or their individual lives. The lack of knowledge can lead to very different views of what's going on. Not suggesting that's what's going on with UL's friends. It's just another example of comparing insides to outsides.
Hi steve, i think we are in agreement, and your insides to outsides comment is more clear than my post.
Not really sure why i commented now anyway
Hi steve, i think we are in agreement, and your insides to outsides comment is more clear than my post.
Not really sure why i commented now anyway
No worries, ZG. It's dots on a screen; sometimes the reception goes awry. :)
I think UL has possibly never been totally head over heels in love.
I think falling head over heels in love is something you do when you're in the 18-24 range. But I can tell you, all my emotions have dulled with time and experience. I doubt I could fall in love now the way I did in my early 20s.
And I remember falling in love head over heels. It felt crazy, out of control, and precarious.
Chicken lady
1-8-18, 8:09am
All things ultralite prefers to avoid.
maybe you should advertise. I’m not sure you’re actually looking for an emotional connection. In some ways you remind me of my father in law. He’s opposed to any chemical substances (including prescription pain relief - knee replacement with three Tylenol anyone?) because he doesn’t believe in “losing control”. He stays active because he doesn’t want to be in a nursing home but has no actual interest in any form of exercise or sport-like recreation. He likes his food plain and nutritionally sound, has no interest in luxuries, travels a lot and finds it “intellectually stimulating” and appears fond of his family. I truly doubt that he loves his wife in any way that I would define as “Love”, but she fills her role in his life suitably. I’m not sure she’s actually capable of loving anyone in the sense that involves seeing them as an individual, so I guess it works out ok. A well screened mail order bride would have suited him perfectly. If mil predeceases him, she will probably be replaced adequately with a housekeeper as he once informed dh that after 50 sex is no longer important.
otoh, when I imagine the possibility of life without dh (he is two years older than me and male) even life securely provided for and surrounded by my family - i feel fear and dismay. I have repeatedly told dh he is not allowed to die. Even after 27 years of marriage, head over heels shows up surprisingly often.
I love your descriptions! 😄
I becoming more like your pragmatic father in law as I age. At age 19 I was in love and not using my rational mind to make decisions. I'm still married to the same man I fell in love with. But I'm pragmatic now.
Things like "love" or "happiness" may simply be impossible to treat as problems that can be solved with a checklist approach or through a therapeutic culture (with or without chemicals).
At least in my case, they have been things I blundered into rather than things I defined, targeted and acquired.
My best advice on this topic is "hope to get lucky and expend more effort trying to be worthy of what you're given than examining it for imperfections".
expend more effort trying to be worthy of what you're given than examining it for imperfections".
I love this. I am going to print this out and make it my motto for 2018. Seriously.
Things like "love" or "happiness" may simply be impossible to treat as problems that can be solved with a checklist approach or through a therapeutic culture (with or without chemicals).
At least in my case, they have been things I blundered into rather than things I defined, targeted and acquired.
My best advice on this topic is "hope to get lucky and expend more effort trying to be worthy of what you're given than examining it for imperfections".
Positive attitude!
ApatheticNoMore
1-8-18, 5:19pm
My best advice on this topic is "hope to get lucky and expend more effort trying to be worthy of what you're given than examining it for imperfections".
I definitely think that going back and forth on whether one is in love or not is examining for imperfections, it is like wondering if one is happy or not much of the time - it is neither here nor there. Yea if one is in a relationship they should emphasize the good parts of a partner (this doesn't mean total blindness mind you and they aren't forced to stay either but if they plan to ...), and that is love as a verb.
All things ultralite prefers to avoid.
maybe you should advertise. I’m not sure you’re actually looking for an emotional connection. In some ways you remind me of my father in law. He’s opposed to any chemical substances (including prescription pain relief - knee replacement with three Tylenol anyone?) because he doesn’t believe in “losing control”. He stays active because he doesn’t want to be in a nursing home but has no actual interest in any form of exercise or sport-like recreation. He likes his food plain and nutritionally sound, has no interest in luxuries, travels a lot and finds it “intellectually stimulating” and appears fond of his family. I truly doubt that he loves his wife in any way that I would define as “Love”, but she fills her role in his life suitably. I’m not sure she’s actually capable of loving anyone in the sense that involves seeing them as an individual, so I guess it works out ok. A well screened mail order bride would have suited him perfectly. If mil predeceases him, she will probably be replaced adequately with a housekeeper as he once informed dh that after 50 sex is no longer important.
otoh, when I imagine the possibility of life without dh (he is two years older than me and male) even life securely provided for and surrounded by my family - i feel fear and dismay. I have repeatedly told dh he is not allowed to die. Even after 27 years of marriage, head over heels shows up surprisingly often.
1. I am going to try to keep having sex as long as I am physically capable. And Viagra is one drug I would probably take!
2. I got my wisdom teeth out at 31. I took Tylenol too. Did nothing for me.
3. I am not like your FIL in the foodie sense, as I love me a good Indian buffet!
4. I think trying to stay out of a nursing home is a damn good goal and I am on board with that.
5. As far as the well-screened mail order bride, I will say my BIL thinks this would be good for me. Though he notes there are lots of immigrants already in Columbus and thinks I should date some of them first. But he "definitely" thinks I should date a woman from the third world, preferably somewhere in Asia.
CL: I think it is great that you love your man so much, especially after all these years! I admire it. I am envious too. Good on you all!
Things like "love" or "happiness" may simply be impossible to treat as problems that can be solved with a checklist approach or through a therapeutic culture (with or without chemicals).
At least in my case, they have been things I blundered into rather than things I defined, targeted and acquired.
My best advice on this topic is "hope to get lucky and expend more effort trying to be worthy of what you're given than examining it for imperfections".
Might be time to write that book, amigo. And I am not joking. Write a book, about something! Anything. You have my word: I will purchase and read it.
Okay, regarding your points. I feel like I agree 75%.
Chicken lady
1-8-18, 6:59pm
Well, we now know that ultralite is not opposed to ALL recreational drugs. ;)
but i’m With ya on that one.
also, In my experience, most immigrants make good food. Some of the best meals I ever ate were the potlucks at international women’s group when I was in my 20s! So, if you can appreciate it - bonus. Find a culture that more closely matches yours!
Chicken lady
1-8-18, 7:02pm
Btw, I wasn’t saying you wouldn’t love your wife if you had one, just that you seem more the “fondness and companionship” type (with sex) where you one day are surprised by loving this person, as opposed to the “marry the person you can’t live without” type.
also, In my experience, most immigrants make good food. Some of the best meals I ever ate were the potlucks at international women’s group when I was in my 20s! So, if you can appreciate it - bonus. Find a culture that more closely matches yours!
Are you being serious or mocking me?
Btw, I wasn’t saying you wouldn’t love your wife if you had one, just that you seem more the “fondness and companionship” type (with sex) where you one day are surprised by loving this person, as opposed to the “marry the person you can’t live without” type.
Well, you might be right to a degree. But I will say, when I partner with someone I tend to be protective, giving, caring, and considerate. To me, this is how a person acts toward their partner.
Chicken lady
1-8-18, 7:56pm
Right - driven by a sense of honor, not by a deep seated need to protect and care for the single most important person in your world (not mocking or criticizing you) “to me this is how a person acts...” is not the same as “I cannot be happy if you are unhappy.” Love for you is more weighted toward the social contract end - for me it’s more weighted toward the irrational, impulsive end. I don’t think either of us would trade.
also, I was serious about the food. Many people put “good cook” in their desirables list. But the definition of “good” varies.
Right - driven by a sense of honor, not by a deep seated need to protect and care for the single most important person in your world (not mocking or criticizing you) “to me this is how a person acts...” is not the same as “I cannot be happy if you are unhappy.” Love for you is more weighted toward the social contract end - for me it’s more weighted toward the irrational, impulsive end. I don’t think either of us would trade.
also, I was serious about the food. Many people put “good cook” in their desirables list. But the definition of “good” varies.
Doing the right thing, sure, that matters.
But an ex of mine, who I was with three years,had a surgery and had to be off work recovering for 2 solid weeks. She could not lift anything or bend all the way over. She could not drive. She just had to sit around healing, resting, and taking her meds.
I met her at the hospital at 6am. Her sister brought her there. I stayed with her through the processing in and until they put her under.
I was there when she woke up. I spent each day after her surgery at her house -- after work, on the weekends. I took care of her dogs, I cooked for her, timed her meds, and so on.
I did these things because I loved her deeply. I wanted to help her get better. I wanted to hold her so close to me that I could take on some of the pain and discomfort so she did not have to feel it.
also, I was serious about the food. Many people put “good cook” in their desirables list. But the definition of “good” varies.
Oh yeah! I love ethnic food of the home cooked variety. This is why I go to the Northland area every weekend! Somali, Kenyan, Nepali, Nigerian, South Indian, etc. Love this stuff. If I married a woman who cooked any of these cuisines well I'd do the dishes, vacuum the apartment, and scrub the bathroom. haha
Balance of labor!
Chicken lady
1-8-18, 8:38pm
And you broke up because?
And you broke up because?
CL... she was a hoarder. And splitting with her was utterly heartbreaking. I still dream about her.
Chicken lady
1-8-18, 8:56pm
I am sorry.
I am sorry.
Thanks. I appreciate it. It has been over for a little longer than a year.
ApatheticNoMore
1-9-18, 7:20am
it may be why I am with my bf is we are actually very similar people, not clones really, but more like variations on a theme. It wasn't a checklist, it was more like in the movies, when you would quote some really obscure thing that almost only you would have any interest in (no not that was online anywhere or anything, nothing anyone could know about you) and the other person could answer, and it was like: oh my. That type of serendipity. Well and I really liked some traits. And mostly it is sustained by enjoying each others company.
I would be the last person that would ever say I am good at relationships (I don't even know if this will last ...). I am much more an authority on what doesn't work. I'm kind of an expert on that as I've mostly done the single thing. And looking for head over heels in love is definitely something that doesn't work, because all it leads to is wondering if there is something else out there, and dumping the person your with for that mirage (and it is a mirage) repeatedly. I'm actually somewhat sympathetic to arranged marriages, the complete opposite. I think we learn to love people, and that arranged marriages do assure that everyone has someone (but really suck if you *already* have someone and have to do the arranged marriage instead!).
Chicken lady
1-9-18, 7:39am
My Dd married fairly young. Only a few of her friends are married or seriously partnered, and most of them do not come from families where the marriages are still mostly intact. she got in a conversation with one of them where the friend said “I don’t know. I just keep wondering if I would be happier with someone else.” And Dd said “you would be.” And the friend was shocked: “What?!” Dd: “for a while. And then you’d just have a new set of issues. If you think this is going to be fun all the time, you’re crazy.”
my kids have decribed my relationship this way “mom and dad don’t like any of the same things (exaggeration) but mom likes dad, and dad likes mom, so it works for them.”
We do like many of the same things, and delight in spending time together. I think both of us feel lost without the other. I think the word lopsided implies a lot of judgments that I don't want to make--if it works for the folks involved and they are happy, then who am I to judge?
My Dd married fairly young. Only a few of her friends are married or seriously partnered, and most of them do not come from families where the marriages are still mostly intact. she got in a conversation with one of them where the friend said “I don’t know. I just keep wondering if I would be happier with someone else.” And Dd said “you would be.” And the friend was shocked: “What?!” Dd: “for a while. And then you’d just have a new set of issues. If you think this is going to be fun all the time, you’re crazy.”
Definitely some good insight there. :)
Something else worth mentioning on this thread: "Spark" and "Chemistry."
I have gone on some dates with women and while they check off most things on my list the dates were boring and the conversation was slow and dull. There was not much flirting or laughing.
I have then politely declined these women after a date or two because I thought: "There is no spark" or "We don't have a chemistry."
But after reflecting for the past few weeks I have realized that I will go on dates or meet women with whom I have lots of spark and chemistry, the conversations are lively and fun, and we laugh a lot.
But! These women with who I have so much spark are totally not relationship material to me. They have some real deal breaker issues or dysfunctional personalities.
So what I am thinking is that maybe these women who seem dull or boring are worth really digging deeper into and getting to know more. Perhaps when they open up they'd be more fun. Perhaps spark and chemistry are overrated and determination and stick-to-it are more important.
Thoughts?
Chicken lady
1-9-18, 8:13am
Give it a try. What you’re doing isn’t working.
i am possibly the most aggravating woman dh has ever met. As you know, I am a hoarder. If dh didn’t have a piano and a roll top desk, he could pack everything in this house that matters to him in his car. (Not the tools in the workshop though) But for him, the rollercoaster ride matters. For you, it isn’t enough.
so, over time, we have come closer over the things that didn’t matter as much - compromises! Work arounds, even changes in ourselves!
it is totally possible that given a comfortable, compatible place to start you could fan a warm glow into a flame.
Also - you can go out and have “fun” with your friends and come home happy to a person who is happy to see you and glad you are happy. Been doing it for years.
So what I am thinking is that maybe these women who seem dull or boring are worth really digging deeper into and getting to know more. Perhaps when they open up they'd be more fun. Perhaps spark and chemistry are overrated and determination and stick-to-it are more important.
Thoughts?
You really should try reading The Road Less Traveled. It's not perfect, but there's good stuff in it if you keep an open mind.
I'm sure I've scuttled a few solid relationships because the chemistry wasn't there. As a young woman, I was scandalized when a co-worker remarked that she wouldn't bother with someone she didn't want to sleep with, but I grew to agree with her, for the most part.
You know those women who seem a little dull may also be introverts who take time to warm up and be comfortable. I imagine I am not the best first date, sometimes I get really outgoing but it is so goofy that it is not that appealing either. My best relationships have been with people I have gotten to know well first, developing from a friendship.
I am getting used to the invisible age of being over 50 and with white hair.
So what I am thinking is that maybe these women who seem dull or boring are worth really digging deeper into and getting to know more. Perhaps when they open up they'd be more fun. Perhaps spark and chemistry are overrated and determination and stick-to-it are more important.
Thoughts?
Not to be too Socratic about it, but what makes these women seem dull or boring to you? That there are no commonalities of interest? That they don't seem really outgoing or vivacious? Something else?
Dates are somewhat artificial environments, IMHO, but I think in the space of a couple of hours together two people can detect if they want to get to know each other better. In fact, my only criterion for ever going on any date -- first, fifth, two-hundredth -- was whether I was interested enough in my date to spend more time with her. (Of course, she used the same criterion, sometimes among others.) At some point, one of us (sometimes both) decided that going on more dates was not going to change our minds about each other and the relationship ended (or we married :)). Identifying a dealbreaker (on either side), I think, pretty well kills off interest in wanting to get to know someone better, so those must be taken into account. But "do I want to go on?" got me (I'm sure, both of us) past the awkward early dates and ended relationships that might have continued with a minimal comfort level (and/or sex) even though one or both of us were eyeing the exit.
you can go out and have “fun” with your friends and come home happy to a person who is happy to see you and glad you are happy.
This is an important point! One of the keys to my relationship with DW is that we do not expect each other to fulfill our every need and want. I have friends (male and female) with whom I do things in which DW has zero interest or ability -- and vice versa. We've agreed it's good to have those people in our lives and that it does not detract from the life the two of share. Having married in our 50s, DW and I were complete people when we met. Living together calls for compromise but it does not require us to give up significant portions of who we are.
iris lilies
1-9-18, 11:18am
I remember minimal chemistry with just abput everyone until they made me laugh for the first time. After that, I was in.
Sometimes that took weeks.
I remember minimal chemistry with just abput everyone until they made me laugh for the first time. After that, I was in.
Sometimes that took weeks.
I'm the impatient type.
That was key to one of my loves; he was co-teaching a class, and his sense of humor was apparent from the start. I think fondly of him to this day.
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