View Full Version : Drunkenness, Dementia & Dysfunction in a Big Cloud of Cigarette Smoke
The situation with my MIL is getting pretty dire. DSIL & her husband live with MIL. MIL presents as being quite rational, but according to SIL, she is urinating in wastebaskets, not attending to personal hygiene, and seems a bit phobic about the bathroom in general. MIL has started bouncing checks and when SIL wanted to help her balance her checkbook, MIL refused and hid checkbook saying everything was fine. MIL drinks a large bottle of wine daily and smoke 3 cartons of cigarettes a week. She uses a cane and walker since breaking her hip last July, and did not cooperate with PT so probably won't progress with her ambulation. She smokes in bed, and BIL recently pulled her away from the stove when she was leaning her face into a lit gas burner to light a cigarette (looked like her hair was going to catch fire). BIL says she doesn't wash her hands so they are concerned about food safety with shared things such as a loaf of bread.
SIL and BIL are on a steady diet of whiskey and cigarettes. SIL is unemployed and has some health issues. She is not terribly nurturing (nor is MIL), but I would say she is trying to do right by her mother to the best of her ability, but she isn't cut out to be a caretaker.
MIL is belligerent, mistrustful and uncooperative, and wants to be just left alone to do her own thing in her own home. SIL & BIL are talking about just moving out.
MIL cannot safely live alone, but is a hazard for anyone living with her due to smoke and fire risk. How and at what point can she be made to accept different living arrangements against her will? Would withholding (or at least decreasing) wine and cigarettes be an act of cruelty or the responsible thing to do?
Brothers are all angry that SIL isn't doing a better job managing the situation, but nobody is really jumping in to help. There is a bad dynamic because MIL said SIL will get the house when she dies. SIL and BIL are paying very little towards living expenses, so brothers think they are taking advantage. SIL says she doesn't even care about getting the house at this point, she just wants out of this servitude.
I am going to ask SIL what I can do to lend support. I do get along well with all partied involved. Any advice?
Oh wow rosarugosa! Hmmm.......Not sure what anyone can do for this group. Just curious how you can "get along well" with these people. I'm sorry if I'm having trouble figuring out their relation to you. Is there a brother in this? I would venture to say to just stay clear.......
iris lilies
1-8-18, 9:52am
Aw sweetie, this is a bad bad situation. Have you been to Al Alon? That group will reinforce coping skills of setting boundaries.
Please do not even go down the path of trying to withold cigs and drink, it will not work. Dont put yourself in that situation.
How big is this house of hers?If big enough, and with separate bathrooms, I might negotiate with her zones where she stays in one and she can trash it to her hearts cOntent with only occasional cleaning while the other zone is for whoever lives with her. But sure, this is impractical because they have to share a kitchen.
But the reality is that she likely has some dementia, she will live in squalor and be content doing it for the rest of her life. Smoking and drinking will hasten her death and that may not be a bad thing. How old is she?
The brothers live how far away? You all need to be on the same page in handling MIL. Group counseling would go far.
wait...this is your brother’s wife’s mother? If so, you are in luck. You have no responsibility. Stay completely out of it.
The next of kin can go to probate and family court and try to be appointed a guardian. From observing such procedures during the days when I was frequently there with my ex over child issues it appears these petitions are usually granted. Any supporting documentation from doctor(s) will be helpful.
Husband's mother who presents as quite rational. Legally, I doubt there is anything you (your husband and his brothers) can do. Your SIL and husband have to make their own decisions regarding just how much they are willing to give up for the hope of getting the house. If I was in the other brother's shoes, I would be jumping up and down with joy that there is someone willing to stay in the house and monitor your MIL. It would be worth giving them the house because this is a multi year situation and is never going to get better.
Dysfunction all the way around. Al Anon is a good suggestion. You are dealing with a group of drinkers and need to understand your boundaries and what is and more important is not possible.
BEFORE you raise any issues with SIL, what are you willing to do? Move in, stay for weeks, give a short term respite (that might involve them never coming back, providing $$, etc. Dont go in having to say no if you dont want to do something.
Brothers are all angry that SIL isn't doing a better job managing the situation, but nobody is really jumping in to help.
If the brothers think managing this situation is so easy, they should know they are welcome at any time to jump in and actively help -- not just "supervise". If SiL is to be the "primary caregiver" and executor of the decisions, however, I believe her votes in what to do should have a little extra weight.
There is a bad dynamic because MIL said SIL will get the house when she dies. SIL and BIL are paying very little towards living expenses, so brothers think they are taking advantage. SIL says she doesn't even care about getting the house at this point, she just wants out of this servitude.
MiL says SiL will get the house. Is that in official writing somewhere?
I am going to ask SIL what I can do to lend support. I do get along well with all partied involved. Any advice?
If there's one lesson that keeps coming back to me in life, it's that you can't push a rope.
Being a level away from this dysfunction, I don't believe you have the leverage needed to do anything beyond illuminate choices and consequences. Despite what SiL says, if she and her DH are not actively working to get out of the situation (saving for and looking for their own place, etc.), they're generally OK with the situation and are just griping to your friendly ear.
About the only thing I would suggest is that SiL/her husband let MiL's medical-care team know about the most dangerous behaviors (cigarette-lighting, hygiene issues). As mandated reporters, they may be able to move MiL toward a care solution that works (better) for all involved.
rosarugosa
1-8-18, 10:07am
CathyA: This is my husband's mother, and his sister and her husband live with MIL.
IL: It's a big old house with 3 - 4 bedrooms, but only 1 bath. Not conducive to zoning off without major work, which nobody can afford. One of the brothers criticizes SIL for buying MIL's wine and butts, since she can't get out of the house. I do think they might have to curb her a bit if she wants more than she has money to afford. MIL is 85, and I think it's amazing she has made it this far. We live 2 miles away, and the other 2 brothers live 1 hr away and 2 hrs away. The 1 hour away brother works in this area though. SIL says were are the only ones she can talk to that don't treat her like she is a total a$$hole. There is a definite lack of family cooperation here.
My Mom is having memory issues, but she is happy and cooperative, trusts us and is thankful for everything we do for her. Sister & I are totally on the same page. Mom is still quite independent at 83, but the family dynamics make this such a better scenario.
All you can do is investigate the options, as many as possible, for care now and in the future. Make copies and hand them to each of the family responsible, ie., your DH and his siblings and then get out of the way. Do not intrude or make any offers of aid beyond that as you are not, as far as I can tell, the decision-maker in any way, merely the rational supportive loving onlooker. That alone is a very valuable role.
iris lilies
1-8-18, 10:50am
Another point to consider is that SIL and BIL need to understand that they will not necessarily “get the house“ regardless of what a will says (and we dont even know if that is stated.) If MIL has to go into a nursing home and she has no resources to pay for that, the house will go to pay her expenses in the nursing home, that is dictated by the government.
But in my experience, limited though it is, heavy smokers go down pretty fast once they start that spiral slide, so years spent in a nursing home isnt the norm.
dado potato
1-8-18, 11:31am
Rosarugosa,
It sounds like your mother-in-law and your husband's siblings have a difficult situation to cope with. You are well-connected with these people, and you are asking your husband's sister what you can do to help. As you say, the family cooperation is lacking (MIL's suspicions, your husband's sister's feeling that "she is treated as a total a$$hole" by her 2 other brothers, etc.)
I wonder if your husband has a clear and deep understanding of your feelings about the situation... and your impressions of the level of sibling cooperation that is called for, versus the level of cooperation you perceive to be present. Perhaps a frank and open dialog with him is essential. In the discussion, you would hopefully be able to clarify: How does your husband view his mother's decline? What does he believe constitute the most immediate and serious threats to her health and well-being? What changes does he believe need to be made in his mother's routine? -- and who (if anyone) would be able to take responsibility for these changes, subject to agreement by the siblings? Who in the family should be acting differently than they are now, and in what ways?
As you may gather, rosarugosa, I believe it may be valuable to clarify what is the nature of the problem, and whose problem it is. If it is primarily a problem for the four siblings and their mother, then you might be able to help with communication (gatekeeping?) and building trust among the siblings. The issues are complex, and the feelings could be volatile. So, do you think it would be sufficient to host 3 or 4 meetings of the four siblings?
Before the siblings meet for the first time, I would suggest designating your husband to speak for both of you... thus, your role in meetings would be to facilitate communication and encourage consensus, while the siblings exchange information, examine alternatives, and make decisions about what is to be done, and by whom.
Of course, there may be resistance to the idea of "meetings, bloody meetings". If siblings don't like the idea of meeting to reach a consensus about the problem, then I would ask them to suggest a better idea.
ApatheticNoMore
1-8-18, 11:37am
there may not even be any real solution. Well if her problems are mostly due to drunkeness the solution is sobriety but no easy way to make that happen, but dementia is another thing. See family dysfunction can have solutions, but actual dementia can't really be shoved into that category, if someone isn't acting right because their brain is going it's not a psychological problem.
They probably will get the house if it's in the will (if she doesn't burn it down first! install many smoke detectors is the best I can think of). The house going to Medicaid law has been changed. How do I know? I've discussed the issue with an estate attorney when my mom's estate has been discussed with me (my mom does not have dementia, but it does run in the family).
However on the Medicaid paying for a nursing home issue, it is unlikely to risk the home, however I don't know how easy it really is to get and how many time limits and other restrictions you are going to hit, and so your choices here are really going to be limited due to limited means. Even if they weren't nursing homes aren't good places (they are where people go to die seems accurate enough to me). If she has dementia killing herself slowly with cigs may not be that bad an option. There is the hiring a caretaker to come in at least for a few hours a week/day/etc. but who has means to pay for that here, clearly not SIL and BIL it seems to me, but do the other family members? They do have to agree on a plan, but money is going to set limits, the finances of caring for old demented people is also not just a family dysfunction problem but a real issue. Yes of course investigate what you can get from Medicare/Medicaid but I think it is likely you are going to find it's not that generous.
iris lilies
1-8-18, 12:01pm
there may not even be any real solution. Well if her problems are mostly due to drunkeness the solution is sobriety but no easy way to make that happen, but dementia is another thing. See family dysfunction can have solutions, but actual dementia can't really be shoved into that category, if someone isn't acting right because their brain is going it's not a psychological problem.
They probably will get the house if it's in the will (if she doesn't burn it down first! install many smoke detectors is the best I can think of). The house going to Medicaid law has been changed. How do I know? I've discussed the issue with an estate attorney when my mom's estate has been discussed with me (my mom does not have dementia, but it does run in the family).
However on the Medicaid paying for a nursing home issue, it is unlikely to risk the home, however I don't know how easy it really is to get and how many time limits and other restrictions you are going to hit, and so your choices here are really going to be limited due to limited means. Even if they weren't nursing homes aren't good places (they are where people go to die seems accurate enough to me). If she has dementia killing herself slowly with cigs may not be that bad an option. There is the hiring a caretaker to come in at least for a few hours a week/day/etc. but who has means to pay for that here, clearly not SIL and BIL it seems to me, but do the other family members? They do have to agree on a plan, but money is going to set limits, the finances of caring for old demented people is also not just a family dysfunction problem but a real issue. Yes of course investigate what you can get from Medicare/Medicaid but I think it is likely you are going to find it's not that generous.
APN, you and i talked about that Medicaid requirement changing, and it seemed to be specific to your state. I have not heard it renounced. Some kind of change took place somewhere but it isnt widespread. It continues to be safe to assume that all assets of a person go toward paying the nursing home bill.
If others have links to this change, I would like to see that information.
ApatheticNoMore
1-8-18, 12:17pm
I don't think the Medicaid part was state specific, other issues we talked about were (the need for setting up an estate in CA even without great assets due to CA law and probate etc.). I could be misinformed and perhaps need a second opinion, but this isn't' something I heard at a party once, but was estate lawyer advice to my specifically asking about it and whether setting up an estate changes things or not etc. and the answer was no but Medicaid can't come after the house estate or no. True this estate lawyer was hired and paid for by my mom not me (although my mom and me have no conflicts of interest here).
iris lilies
1-8-18, 12:40pm
(http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/health-and-medicine/ask-emily/article122676169.html)
I don't think the Medicaid part was state specific, other issues we talked about were (the need for setting up an estate in CA even without great assets due to CA law and probate etc.). I could be misinformed and perhaps need a second opinion, but this isn't' something I heard at a party once, but was estate lawyer advice to my specifically asking about it and whether setting up an estate changes things or not etc. and the answer was no but Medicaid can't come after the house estate or no. True this estate lawyer was hired and paid for by my mom not me (although my mom and me have no conflicts of interest here).
Medicaid is, or course, a federal program, but it is administered by the states.
Some years ao I read that the state of Michigan did not ever exercise its perogotive to go after assets to pay for nursing home care. That is an example of a state doing a specific thing, while other states DO go after assets. I saw that happen with my friend who believed she inherited her father’s house along with her siblings. They were surprised when our state commandeered it.
edited to add: the change ANM talks about is specific to California, it appears, based on this article.
http://www.sacbee.com/news/local/health-and-medicine/ask-emily/article122676169.html
And, it seems to apply only to a home of modest value (see about midway into article.)
One of the brothers criticizes SIL for buying MIL's wine and butts, since she can't get out of the house.
This can be hard to avoid. Police officers are trained to deal with difficult people, but when my then husband was arrested for domestic A&B the officer later called me the victim to see if I could bring cigarettes to the jail. I did not for the benefit of my spouse but out of pity for the officer having to listen to his nonstop whining for them.
Three things jump out at me:
1. This is your husband's mother.
2. You live only 2 miles away, which can be only a few minutes in a car.
3. There seems to be some contempt because your SIL is unemployed. I'd say she is employed: as a fulltime unpaid caregiver for your MIL. Thank God she's not working for money- who would pull your MIL away from a lighted gas stove if she weren't there tulltime?
Your BIL and SIL are in a horrible situation. They need some respite. Your husband has a duty to his mother, and he lives really close. He could, and even should, take on some of the load, as in regularly either sitting with his mother a few hours each weekend, or taking her out shopping, for coffee, a drive, whatever. You're very lucky that your mother is sweet and capable, but that does not in any way relieve your husband of responsibility toward his mother.
This whole business of the house seems to me to be disgraceful. If the other siblings want the house, they should work out now how much it would cost for either a nursing home or a fulltime live-in carer, and split the costs between them. Over a couple of years, this is likely to far outweigh the value of the house, especially after the sale price is split several ways and all legal fees have been paid.
I think that your BIL and SIL are likely to get stiffed. Even if MIL has left the house to them in her will, they may not be able to afford to inherit it. First, there are upfront fees: probate and executor's fees, which have to be paid in cash. If this is California, the difference in purchase and current value could be considerable, which could hit them with capital gains tax. Then, even if they get a onetime step-up value and don't have to pay capital gains tax, reassessment of the property's fair-market value could hit them hard with increased property taxes.
My husband and I live with his mother, in a house paid for 40 years ago. She's clean, a nonsmoker, and nondrinker. But she's demanding. We're on call 24/7, 365/366. My SIL, my husband's sister, lives right across the road. There was a considerable amount of muttered complaining that we were getting it all so easy, and that my husband was going to get the house. Finally, I spoke up. I asked outright if SIL and BIL would live with MIL, and got a flat No. There wouldn't be enough money in the world to make up for their loss of freedom and the constant nagging and stream of insults. Aha, said I. Then I asked if they knew what a nursing home or fulltime carer would cost: $5,000/month for a not top-of-the-range place, or $3,500/month for a bonded caregiver. Would they want to pay that? Otherwise, the house would have to be sold to cover her longterm care in a nursing home, given that her income is $1300/month. No. If my husband and i moved out and stood on our own feet and rented our own place, we could no ways afford to pay half the costs of maintaining MIL, so the house would have to be sold anyway, and MIL would be miserable.
Now let's get to the house. Yes, it's worth a fair amount of money. BUT we couldn't afford to inherit it! We'd have had to drain all our resources to pay the probate and executor's fees. We could have managed to avoid capital gains tax, according to the lawyer we consulted. Whew! That's a lot of money: the house cost $42k in the 1970s, and is worth $1.7 million now. However, we live in the San Francisco Bay Area, and currently the house falls under Prop. 13. Property taxes are $1400/year. Under the reassessment fair market value, we'd pay $34k/year - more than half of our combined pretax income. We got around the problem by putting the house into a bypass trust; my husband and I have no children together, so the house will go eventually to his sister's daughters. This way, they get the house at step-up value, and avoid capital gains tax, but will unfortunately have to deal with the increased property taxes.
I would say that this is not your call. Your MIL's children need to get together and do some research and consult a lawyer. They need to stop wrangling about the house, which is rather like picking the bones before the horse has died. The old lady might be a PITA, but her welfare really should come first.
ToomuchStuff
1-9-18, 1:33pm
"MIL cannot safely live alone, but is a hazard for anyone living with her due to smoke and fire risk. How and at what point can she be made to accept different living arrangements against her will?"
Have her declared non competent and obtain guardianship.
You can NOT make her accept them, but she will have to live with the consequences.
"MIL cannot safely live alone, but is a hazard for anyone living with her due to smoke and fire risk. How and at what point can she be made to accept different living arrangements against her will?"
Have her declared non competent and obtain guardianship.
You can NOT make her accept them, but she will have to live with the consequences.
I was thinking that too. She may very well have an alcohol-induced brain dysfunction that detox could possibly help. Maybe not, but it's worth a try.
Thanks for the input everyone. I do realize I am only a minor supporting character in this drama (for which I am grateful), but I think I can at least gently nudge DH to increase his support and involvement, and I can certainly lend some support of my own (my own actions are all I can really control of course). I spent a long time on the phone with SIL today, and she said it is the first time she's really gotten any words of support from anyone in the family. I told her I could come over 1 day a week, help with cleaning and laundry, try to make some plans to get SIL out of the house more often or she could let me know any other ways I might reasonably assist. SIL and I do have a friendly relationship, but we don't spend as much time together as we used to, mostly because of the smoking and drinking. I'm no teetotaler (remember, I'm the one who is going to get rich from the Black Box Wine rewards program), but when we are with them, they are almost always drunk and all 3 people in that house smoke a lot. DH had COPD, and I'm sure it isn't healthy for either of us to spend too much time there.
The whole house issue is really sad. I think MIL set the stage for dissent and the house thing makes it easy for the brothers to abdicate responsibility to their sister since "she's going to get everything anyway." I agree this doesn't excuse them for not taking some responsibility for their mother.
MIL does not want to leave the house. We offered to take her to our niece's house for Xmas Eve, but she didn't want to go.
CathyA: This is my husband's mother, and his sister and her husband live with MIL.
IL: It's a big old house with 3 - 4 bedrooms, but only 1 bath. Not conducive to zoning off without major work, which nobody can afford. One of the brothers criticizes SIL for buying MIL's wine and butts, since she can't get out of the house. I do think they might have to curb her a bit if she wants more than she has money to afford. MIL is 85, and I think it's amazing she has made it this far. We live 2 miles away, and the other 2 brothers live 1 hr away and 2 hrs away. The 1 hour away brother works in this area though. SIL says were are the only ones she can talk to that don't treat her like she is a total a$$hole. There is a definite lack of family cooperation here.
My Mom is having memory issues, but she is happy and cooperative, trusts us and is thankful for everything we do for her. Sister & I are totally on the same page. Mom is still quite independent at 83, but the family dynamics make this such a better scenario.
First thing should be getting MIL to a doctor to be evaluated as to whether she has dementia or has alcohol induced problems.
He may make a recommendation that she be placed in a facility,thus taking it out of the family's hands.
I'm in NYS and I know if there's any assets over and above the house they will be attached first.I know if there's a spouse the house can't be attached, that doesn't seem to be the case.
A spend down is usually the 1st option to use,then Medicaid will kick in as well as Medicare and whatever SS benefits she gets,our residents get 50.00 out of their benefits for haircuts,outings,etc.
One of them,Medicaid or Medicare covers a home health aide for some hours a week,they also will pay a family member to do so,this is new...
"MIL cannot safely live alone, but is a hazard for anyone living with her due to smoke and fire risk. How and at what point can she be made to accept different living arrangements against her will?"
Have her declared non competent and obtain guardianship.
You can NOT make her accept them, but she will have to live with the consequences.
If nothing else, make sure smoke/CO alarms are installed in the right places and functioning.
mschrisgo2
1-11-18, 11:14pm
Be cautious about a doctor visit. She is the patient, it's doubtful that she will tell the doctor enough for s/he to get the picture that she is a danger to herself and others, and doctor can't discuss her issues with anyone else unless she gives permission. I know someone like this. She just checked herself into the hospital-took a cab- for a knee replacement on Monday, and intends to go home to her empty (of people) house on Friday! She has told the doctors that her niece lives with her- Not. Niece lives 260 miles away! This woman is 89, has AFib and COPD, had a hip replacement 6 months ago, and reportedly is very lax with her medication schedule. The family is sort of at their wits' ends with her- but have gotten no help from her doctors.
Sounds like MIL is content where she is, and she can't be placed in a nursing home against her will, unless she's declared imcompetant and placed in a locked ward. It is very difficult and time-consuming to have somebody declared incompetant...as it should be; this is depriving her of all freedom and autonomy. If she is content with her situation, and if the 89 year old with Afib and COPD who lives alone likes it that way, who is to say they don't have the right to live the way they want, even if we may think it's wrong? I think OP's intention to help out at MIL's home is a great solution.
Teacher Terry
1-14-18, 12:50am
It is fairly difficult to have someone declared incompetent. The judge will ask the date to include the year, who is president, etc. It is a pretty low bar. Yes her dementia may indeed be because of the alcohol but sometimes the damage is permanent. Most states have a 5 year look back period for Medicaid. When my friend recently died I had to show proof of all the funeral/death expenses I paid up front. I was allowed to spend that $ and that's about it. Medicaid had only helped out for less then a year but they wanted any $ that as left. The house was long gone as her DH sold it when he was dying and paid off all their debts.
rosarugosa
1-15-18, 9:43am
Update: SIL told MIL yesterday that I was coming over to help with her checking account. SIL said MIL did a complete 180 and was getting her records together and waiting for me to arrive. I found MIL to be very receptive to my help. I found one significant error where she had added something that should have been deducted, which of course has double the impact. I couldn't totally untangle things though, because I didn't have enough info, e.g. MIL hadn't kept her last account statement, and it appears that she wrote a check recently but didn't write it down, so we cannot know what that was until it clears. I proposed that she call me when she gets her monthly statements and I will reconcile with her checkbook ("I can be your accountant!"). I've certainly made errors in my own checkbook, but I reconcile every month and am able to catch things before they have impact. I am concerned that she has virtually no money. It occurred to me after the fact that she must have a property tax bill due on 2/1 (we live in the same town), and it would probably be for $1000 or more, and she has a lot less than that in the bank, and won't get anything more coming in until SS deposit on 2/1. I feel like this really requires some good sibling communication and cooperation, and I'm not optimistic about that happening.
I don't think she could be declared incompetent. She is pretty sharp about most things, and it's hard to reconcile her demeanor with the whole urinating in wastebaskets thing. I think it would be best if she can stay in her home as she wants to, but I don't know that she can afford to do so, especially if SIL and BIL move out.
SIL seemed to get some benefit from me just expressing verbally that I was an ally/resource for her. Apparently she told our other SIL to shut up and get out and that she was not part of the family when she tried to get involved. I think it helped that I approached her with "what can I do to help" rather than "I'm going to come in and straighten all you people out," which probably was the other SIL's approach (good intentions, but kind of a bossy, know-it-all presentation). I was talking to DH about the interpersonal dynamics and that I was just DIL/SIL and not one of the kids. He said, "you have more than DIL status in that household." There is kind of some truth to that, so I want to do what I can to help out with this sad situation. MIL pays a housekeeper $100 to come in once a month. I am pondering the possibility of offering to clean the house once a month for her, which would effectively put $100/month back in her pocket. Not sure yet if I want to commit to that, but it would be a way I could personally help.
iris lilies
1-15-18, 9:52am
Rosa, you seem very practical about this. I dont know about the cleaning. Here is one way to look at this: if it is apparant that your MIL cannot now, or soon cannot, afford to live in a big house, your work to “help” her out by cleaning seems to be prolonging the inevitable.
Showing her that she has no money to pay taxes is a useful lesson, it isnt scaring her unnecessarily, it is reality.
With the elderly, a good philosophy (I think i learned it here!) is to show you value them by taking care of THEM but not their STUFF. I know it is hard to separate the two. But a big old house is just STUFF.
good luck withh this.
catherine
1-15-18, 10:11am
rosa, I think you are handing this very practically and compassionately. I agree with IL, don't take on the house cleaning.
I do think that if she's sharp, she'll be able to look at the numbers you've worked out and hopefully come to a conclusion on her own. If she were not alcoholic, I would actually suggest looking into a reverse mortgage. They're not great, but they can help some people. Not sure how old your MIL is?
However, since she's alcoholic (which is why she pees in waste baskets even though she's compos mentis most of the time), and she may lose your SIL/BIL, a reverse mortgage may be a form of enabling.
That's the problem I see when you work to help to keep the elderly in their homes, especially when their homes are too big and too much for them to care for. Are you really helping, or are you enabling, and helping to keep a bad situation going?
Alcoholism complicates this question, almost beyond unraveling.
rosarugosa
1-15-18, 12:16pm
My MIL is 85 years old and seems to have no interest in changing her ways, so if we could enable her until she shuffles off her mortal coil, I think that would be an excellent accomplishment. She is really thin, SIL says she won't eat much and with the smoking and drinking, I wouldn't expect her to have too many years left. It just seems like tough love and getting her to turn her life around isn't a realistic expectation at her age.
I was thinking that a reverse mortgage might be a good idea for her.
It probably hasn't come through with what I've written here, because I've tried to objectively share the facts, but I do really love my MIL, I believe she loves me, and we have always gotten along very well.
catherine
1-15-18, 12:29pm
My MIL is 85 years old and seems to have no interest in changing her ways, so if we could enable her until she shuffles off her mortal coil, I think that would be an excellent accomplishment. She is really thin, SIL says she won't eat much and with the smoking and drinking, I wouldn't expect her to have too many years left. It just seems like tough love and getting her to turn her life around isn't a realistic expectation at her age.
I was thinking that a reverse mortgage might be a good idea for her.
It probably hasn't come through with what I've written here, because I've tried to objectively share the facts, but I do really love my MIL, I believe she loves me, and we have always gotten along very well.
OK. The fact that she's 85 leads me to agree with you. Why upset the apple cart at this point? She is who she is. As long as she can be kept reasonably safe, acceptance at this point won't hurt. I understand your affection, and your realistic assessment of her situation is laudable.
I think this kind of situation is perfect for reverse mortgage -
I think this kind of situation is perfect for reverse mortgage -
I was thinking that is true, if the money she gets could be used for nursing/cleaning/home health care.
But what happens when and if she must go to assisted living. Do they just then sell the house? How does that impact the reverse mortgage.
Catherine, why did you say the alcoholism might make the reverse mortgage not a good idea?
Rosa, just because you want her to be able to stay in their house, and it seems the kindest thing, and you cannot expect her to change how she lives, etc., and she is alcoholic, does not mean it is going to end well for her staying in the house. that is what is happening with my parents, and now they can't go home from the hospital to the house, as hospital will not release them to an environment that is not safe for them.
So while we also wanted them to be able to stay in the house, and knew things weren't going to change with them suddenty taking great care of themselves, and they are very old and wanted to die at home, it is not working well for them. Realistically they should have left 3 years ago...
We are far away, all the kids, but you live 2 miles away rosa, and if your mil has a fall and injures herself, as my dad did, then things can change quickly as to how she can live in her current home. Not sure how the state will then react, as you live so close.
We were told either get here and straighten this out for them, as they can no longer make reasonable decisions, even the one parent who is deemed competent ( and one is), or the state will take over and deem them self-neglect, and then they get put wherever the state wants to put them, and they can separate them and probably will.
So not everyone is lucky enough to be able to die at home, even if it seems like that is what they want and are hellbent on doing.
Catherine, why did you say the alcoholism might make the reverse mortgage not a good idea?
That was before I knew she was 85. At first blush, I felt that a reverse mortgage would give her carte blanche to carry on with her ways and not give her any incentive to change. But now I think that a reverse mortgage might make it easier on everyone.
So sorry about the difficulties you are facing, Tybee. It is very hard for all to face leaving home, especially if its not one's choice. My favorite aunt became a widow 3 years ago, and she told me that she wanted to stay where she was, in the home she raised her kids in, even though you can't leave the house without navigating treacherous steps, and she has severe osteoporosis.
So they just recently relocated her to her son's house for good, and they sold her house. When I took her to lunch a few months ago, I detected her mind was slipping. I wonder if the move disoriented her, or if she was losing it anyway.
I think people are lucky if they can die on their own terms.
I think people are lucky if they can die on their own terms.
Amen to that, it is much to be prayed for. But sometimes, it does not happen. It is more likely to happen for Rosa's mil, I think, if she can get home health in there now, and not depend on the family members for the care.
If my parents had been willing to do that, it might have worked the way they wanted.
These situations are so hard. It seems to be a common problem that people refuse to make any changes until some sort of emergency event happens (broken hip, fall, fire, accidental meds overdose, etc.). At that point, they then have to act quickly and with limited options due to the time constraints. To me, it seems like it would be so much better to accept reality and make changes earlier on your own schedule and with more choices, to get to a more supportable living situation before the point when one is actually entirely unable to take care of oneself. Lots of people would like to "die at home," which is fine but you have to realize that very frequently, you don't just go from being able to live on your own to peacefully dying in your sleep one night. You need to plan for that interim period where you are still alive but unable to care for yourself completely on your own. Possible dementia/alcoholism and sibling/money issues just make the whole thing that much worse.
OP, I applaud your compassion and willingness to help, but also hope that you will be able to set boundaries and not make yourself unwell by trying to solve this complicated situation which has been decades in the making and is not your fault.
Teacher Terry
1-15-18, 6:55pm
I would get the reverse mortgage. Since she has live in help she may just be able to die there especially is she gets some home health assistance when she needs it. Realistically it does not sound like she will live much longer. You are a wonderful DIL!
iris lilies
1-15-18, 10:40pm
Tybee, that is a sad situation, that of your parents. And not much you can do about it if they arent going to allow you to help them find an alternative.
rosarugosa
1-16-18, 6:03am
Tybee: I am so sorry since it sounds like you have double the trouble going on. Are both of your parents currently in the hospital?
Mammalatte: You make some very good points. What a curious phenomenon in our society that we all sort of pretend that we aren't going to get older and frailer as we make our life decisions and living arrangements, and then other, often unappealing arrangements have to be made in crisis mode when something happens.
Tybee: I am so sorry since it sounds like you have double the trouble going on. Are both of your parents currently in the hospital?
Mammalatte: You make some very good points. What a curious phenomenon in our society that we all sort of pretend that we aren't going to get older and frailer as we make our life decisions and living arrangements, and then other, often unappealing arrangements have to be made in crisis mode when something happens.
Thanks Rosarugosa and IL. They are both currently out of the hospital and into rehab, with plans to move them from rehab to long term care as soon as they are strong enough. They have definitely entered that phase where control has been taken away from them as to whether they can go home or not (they can't, according to hospital, doctors, social workers) and now we are trying to help them adjust and cope with the new reality, while wrapping up their house without them being there, although my dad cannot quite get his head around that aspect of things, and my mother is so far gone mentally that she vacillates between thinking she is still home and that she is on a trip with my dad at a motel.
We are in the phase of trying to wrap up their affairs, keep them safe, warm, and fed, and I cannot tell yet whether they will pass soon or go into ltc and hopefully, that we can move them to ltc closer to one of their children. I just don't know if my dad will make it that long, and it is a definitely in crisis mode.
For at least 7 years we have been trying to get them to move in with us, have offered to move in with them, have been trying to get them home health, been trying to get them to come "visit" us and then let it evolve into a permanent situation--but now their health is so fragile that I could not even pull that off at this point. They need to be where they are.
Rosa, I hope your mil does not get to this point. Although they did get to live as they wanted for as long as they possibly could, and that was certainly an achievement. They both wanted to die at home, they just could not quite pull it off.
Tammy can add to this but I found in my counselling families in LTC re oral health issues that the kids felt way more stress than their parents. While the parents were simply coping with change, the kids were dealing with guilt, struggling trying to do their level best to meet the ideal expectations of care for parents, the financial stress of taking on another's monetary responsibilities, sibling power struggles, planning for possible termination of life and clearing out homes.
Rosa and Tybee, you cannot do it all. Parents live with the results of their choices. Doing nothing is a choice that they make. Kids cannot correct or undo these choices in most cases.
So many people simply cannot cope with planning for their demise. What are each of you doing to prevent this from happening in your life'e end?
Now 74 years old, I expect to live for another 30 years, I hope that I have planned well with my downsizing, bringing all assets under one roof but properly managed, prepaid funeral, a legal updated will in my lawyer's office, an accountant doing my taxes for a very modest fee, living simply and actively with diverse interests in a quiet modest neighbourhood, alcohol and drug-free, talking to my kids weekly, happy and healthy.
iris lilies
1-16-18, 10:23am
Tammy can add to this but I found in my counselling families in LTC re oral health issues that the kids felt way more stress than their parents. While the parents were simply coping with change, the kids were dealing with guilt, struggling trying to do their level best to meet the ideal expectations of care for parents, the financial stress of taking on another's monetary responsibilities, sibling power struggles, planning for possible termination of life and clearing out homes.
Rosa and Tybee, you cannot do it all. Parents live with the results of their choices. Doing nothing is a choice that they make. Kids cannot correct or undo these choices in most cases.
So many people simply cannot cope with planning for their demise. What are each of you doing to prevent this from happening in your life'e end?
Now 74 years old, I expect to live for another 30 years, I hope that I have planned well with my downsizing, bringing all assets under one roof but properly managed, prepaid funeral, a legal updated will in my lawyer's office, an accountant doing my taxes for a very modest fee, living simply and actively with diverse interests in a quiet modest neighbourhood, alcohol and drug-free, talking to my kids weekly, happy and healthy.
yes! That is the sphere of control trol we have, our own choices for where to live and aging out.
Believe it or not, I regularly think about the mess someone would inherit if we both died. I think about the mess *I* would inherit if DH died. I have general plans for both, but that doesnt mean it woild be an easy task to take care of everything. Our financial i struments are not under one roof and that would be a mess even thpugh we have documented it all. We still have two financial insteuments that are NOT part of our trust, it is just too damn hard to make that happen. But we will soldier on and chip away at the goal of completing our trust.
Anyway.
When I think about our deaths it is highly abstract and so it is not painful,
I dont get upset. I am thinking about the practical aspects of it all.
My own parents modeled good planning for end of life. They said they expected my mother to live a good 10 years beyond my father. She did. They paid for nursing home insurance for her. It came in handy. They said they would not be leaving any assets to us kids, dont plan on it! They left a nice amount after all but not a big amount. My mother moved two times frm our family hme, and each time it was into a smaller, more updated place and each time she got rid of tons of crap. Yay!
There is a retirement apartment complex within a mile of here that draws me in. I am on their mailing list and they do aggressive marketing. It is across the street from my favorite city park, it is on a stretch of business area that has great restaurants. It is in an old pre-war building, and I love those buildings with their tiny closets and kitchens and their hgh ceilings. DH and I are going to their open house this month.
It is possible that we move to Hermann, MO but retain a small apartment in St. Louis city. Maybe this retirement place is the best to move straight into without having an inbetween time apartment, who knows? It would be very hard for me to leave the city. There are other retirement places that I think of as “posh” and I like their grounds, but I hate the fact that they are all the hell the way out in suburbs.
Allowing elderly parents to make their own choices - sort of like allowing grown kids to make their own choices. It's all about boundaries.
Allowing elderly parents to make their own choices - sort of like allowing grown kids to make their own choices. It's all about boundaries.
Parents who are legally competent can do whatever they wish; we were unable to convince mine to do something different, unfortunately, but perhaps it would have ended up in the same place.
Since we were summoned by the medical authorities to start making decisions for them, we are helping them, supporting them, caring for them, loving them, and helping them stay together, and working with the hospital, t he social workers, the doctors, so that they remain safe. We are working on their house, even though we all live thousands of miles away. We are heartbroken at their circumstances and their suffering.
Razz, I don't know if you were addressing Rosarugosa and me specifically about our plans for our own eventual end, or whether it was a general comment to all. If you were addressing me specifically, of course I have made other arrangements and plan to end out my days very differently than my parents, in order that my children not go through anything like this. I am glad that you have done the same.
rosarugosa
1-16-18, 5:22pm
Ah end of life plans, I suppose we should make some . . .
At least we won't be a burden to our kids because we don't have any.
We do have a small house with the bathroom on the first floor, and we're within walking distance to the center of town and decent bus service. We are mindful of our finances, and we would be good candidates for a reverse mortgage since we have no kids and our house is paid for.
Teacher Terry
1-16-18, 7:28pm
My Mom planned very well. She moved into an apartment. As she aged she got rid of stuff. When it was apparent she was dying she got rid of most stuff even her pics after we took what we wanted. She stayed home until a week before she died which is what she wanted. She was tough and determined. A lesser person would not have made it alone at 90 and advanced cancer. She had paid for her funeral. She had written everything down including her own obituary, asked people to sing at the funeral and told them what to sing. It was important to her that she take everyone that came to a nice restaurant for lunch after the funeral. We were instructed to sell her car to pay for it. She was a remarkable woman.
rosarugosa
1-24-18, 6:40pm
My sister & I have registered for a class at the local Community College on caring for those with dementia. Neither mother nor MIL has been diagnosed with dementia, but the early signs are there, and I can't imagine we won't pick up some useful knowledge.
I spent the day with my mom and we worked on a crossword puzzle for about 5 hours. Her neurologist said this type of activity would be good for her, and that she needed to challenge her brain, that it had to be something difficult for it to be therapeutic. It was heartbreaking just how difficult it was for her, and my mom used to be as sharp as they came. I ended up with a bit of a headache, (I found it challenging in a different way), but she was delighted and felt great about spending the time together and seeing that her "brain still works." I guess that made the endeavor worthwhile.
ETA: This is my mother I'm talking about here and not my MIL.
There is a great caregiving forum on city-data.com. I have followed two stories in particular and learned a lot about the disease and how to adapt and work with the issues.
rosarugosa
1-24-18, 7:52pm
Thanks, Sweetana. I will check it out!
These situations are so hard. It seems to be a common problem that people refuse to make any changes until some sort of emergency event happens (broken hip, fall, fire, accidental meds overdose, etc.). At that point, they then have to act quickly and with limited options due to the time constraints. To me, it seems like it would be so much better to accept reality and make changes earlier on your own schedule and with more choices, to get to a more supportable living situation before the point when one is actually entirely unable to take care of oneself.
My sisters and I ran into this with our parents. They were hell-bent on remaining in their own home and doing their own thing, which was understandable and worked....until it no longer didn't. Even then they would not hear of making any changes such as in home care even after my mother's last hospital release, in spite of strong recommendations from Mom's PTs/OTs that my folks do so. My mother declined pretty quickly over the course of 3 months and was mostly in the hospital during that time. She wanted to go home and most of all, my Dad, who was her primary caregiver (on paper only, in reality his daughters did the caregiving) wanted her home. She was released to home three times only to go back to the hospital within a couple of days. The final time she was at home, there was a crisis on my Dad's part and a fall on her part, so back to the hospital she went. After that, her doctor would not release her to home again and she had to go to a skilled nursing facility. Mom was extremely angry over being in the facility even though it was explained there was no choice anymore. She died two weeks later.
rosarugosa
1-30-18, 6:19pm
I'm sorry Saguaro. These are such difficult situations to navigate.
I was talking with my MIL the other night, and she said she wants to live alone again and thinks she would be fine alone (in her vast story old house, although she cannot bathe independently, clean house, get laundry to/from the basement, etc). I mentioned that it might be good to put a small bath on the first floor, repurposing her front hall closet. She smiled at me and said, "oh no, I would never give up my hall closet!" This from a woman who has only been out of the house once since last August for an MD appointment. She needs the hall closet in her current circumstances just as much as she needs a unicycle. I guess we do get set in our ways.
iris lilies
1-30-18, 10:39pm
I'm sorry Saguaro. These are such difficult situations to navigate.
I was talking with my MIL the other night, and she said she wants to live alone again and thinks she would be fine alone (in her vast story old house, although she cannot bathe independently, clean house, get laundry to/from the basement, etc). I mentioned that it might be good to put a small bath on the first floor, repurposing her front hall closet. She smiled at me and said, "oh no, I would never give up my hall closet!" This from a woman who has only been out of the house once since last August for an MD appointment. She needs the hall closet in her current circumstances just as much as she needs a unicycle. I guess we do get set in our ways.
Oy vey.
Rosa, we made similar suggestions to my parents for years, urging them to make a bedroom out of the back parlor and expand the downstairs bathroom. They reacted much as your mil.
They are now in assisted living due to Dad's falls and mom's dementia. They did get to live at home for 5 more years than made any sense for them, and that is what they wanted. We did not have a family member living with them; they did not want that.
I guess my advice, not that you asked for it, lol, is that sometimes parents will do what they will do and nothing reasonable you say will help stave off a bad situation. On the other hand, they lived as they wanted for much longer than they should have, so I suppose in the long run their stubbornness was rewarded somewhat.
Your mil might be much better off in assisted living, given the dynamics of the family and the nature of the house. Maybe you could take her to look at some nice places, and she might surprise you. Or maybe not.
I just am learning it is a true al anon situation--you did not cause it, you cannot control it, and you cannot cure it. You can just do the best you can and roll with whatever happens.
A personal experience: towards the end of her life we had my Mom evaluated by the state Medicaid office for eligibility for the nursing home. By then her series of small strokes had clouded her brain (although dementia was not formally diagnosed) and she was telling the nurse/intake worker who visited her at home things like "we didn't give her any food." Fortunately I was there and pointed out the dirty dishes in the sink from the breakfast that my Mom had just eaten.
Point is, I can see where caregivers might be accused of things based on the word of an already mentally compromised family member, so getting an objective evaluation from a medical doctor on the record can be important to have early on.
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