Jury duty morning.....

[gimmethesimplelife]

Here it is on the early morning of my jury duty. I have the day off for this and feel horrible as we are short on staff right now and it's going to make an impact on the other site supervisors that I am not there. I have to say I really resent the system for putting me in a position of having to make things difficult for my co-workers and for the Banquet Staffing Service. That said, I think I figured out how I can honestly get out of the system fair and square so that I can return to the Convention Center and make myself useful on the floor.

All I have to do is mention my anti-police brutality activism! I don't know why I hadn't thought of this earlier? What prosecutor would want me to serve on a jury based on my activism against American police? And what's really cool about this is that I am being totally 100% honest here........realistically, coming from the 85006, it's almost impossible to not be biased against the police and the system. Too bad I can't be disqualified based on zip code!

I'll come back later in the day and post how this adventure goes......here's hoping I can get out of the system's clutches by 11 AM so I can make myself useful for mid-day events at the Convention Center. Rob

[Tybee]

Rob, I hated jury duty and was surprised and distressed when I was chosen. It was extremely stressful to sit in judgment on my peers.
On the other hand, I felt good doing my civic duty and felt good that I made myself available to be on the jury, as I am a fair person and I would want someone like myself on a jury if I were ever in that situation.
So for me, it was a matter of duty and of doing unto others as I would want done to me. I believe in our jury system and I need to do my part to make sure that we still have a jury system. I think it is a duty of citizenship, and transcends duty to my coworkers, and yes, I had to miss work and lost money.

I don't quite understand your take on this, as I believe that our jury system is one of the protections that we have as citizens. I don't understand why you are not invested in protecting a fair jury system.

[LDAHL]

Here it is on the early morning of my jury duty. I have the day off for this and feel horrible as we are short on staff right now and it's going to make an impact on the other site supervisors that I am not there. I have to say I really resent the system for putting me in a position of having to make things difficult for my co-workers and for the Banquet Staffing Service. That said, I think I figured out how I can honestly get out of the system fair and square so that I can return to the Convention Center and make myself useful on the floor.

All I have to do is mention my anti-police brutality activism! I don't know why I hadn't thought of this earlier? What prosecutor would want me to serve on a jury based on my activism against American police? And what's really cool about this is that I am being totally 100% honest here........realistically, coming from the 85006, it's almost impossible to not be biased against the police and the system. Too bad I can't be disqualified based on zip code!

I'll come back later in the day and post how this adventure goes......here's hoping I can get out of the system's clutches by 11 AM so I can make myself useful for mid-day events at the Convention Center. Rob

What will you do if it’s just a fence line dispute?

[Williamsmith]

Here it is on the early morning of my jury duty. I have the day off for this and feel horrible as we are short on staff right now and it's going to make an impact on the other site supervisors that I am not there. I have to say I really resent the system for putting me in a position of having to make things difficult for my co-workers and for the Banquet Staffing Service. That said, I think I figured out how I can honestly get out of the system fair and square so that I can return to the Convention Center and make myself useful on the floor.

All I have to do is mention my anti-police brutality activism! I don't know why I hadn't thought of this earlier? What prosecutor would want me to serve on a jury based on my activism against American police? And what's really cool about this is that I am being totally 100% honest here........realistically, coming from the 85006, it's almost impossible to not be biased against the police and the system. Too bad I can't be disqualified based on zip code!

I'll come back later in the day and post how this adventure goes......here's hoping I can get out of the system's clutches by 11 AM so I can make myself useful for mid-day events at the Convention Center. Rob

Thats pretty funny, now the defense will certainly fight to keep you in the jury pool. Rob.......just suck it up and serve.

[dado potato]

I had a jury experience in which I was in a minority that had a "reasonable doubt" that the prosecution had proven guilt. The majority seemed to believe that the police would not likely arrest, and that the prosecution surely would never proceed against a person unless they had done something to deserve it. It was stressful for me, because in that jury room I was trying to stir up some critical thinking, but most of the others wanted to say "guilty, and get it over with". But the stress on us jurors was small compared to the ordeal of incarceration that could have befallen the accused and his family.

[Zoe Girl]

I was on a jury for a week, I guess middle aged, white haired ladies are not that threatening. I didn't even get asked too many questions (they never asked if I had been in a fight, assuming I hadn't been). I was very glad to be there, the case was total crap against this young man and I was part of making sure things were fair. I didn't have anything against the police actions in it, and it was interesting the negative comments about the female police chief. In the end it was self defense, a very drunk smaller guy jumped a younger, sober and athletic guy. In one punch it was over but still self defense.

[Float On]

I loved the opportunity to be on Jury duty and the chance to learn how the system works. You really have to prove someone is guilty beyond a 'shadow of a doubt' once something goes to trial. It was sad watching so many try to get out of it during the process, very selfish.

[iris lilies]

I loved the opportunity to be on Jury duty and the chance to learn how the system works. You really have to prove someone is guilty beyond a 'shadow of a doubt' once something goes to trial. It was sad watching so many try to get out of it during the process, very selfish.
I dont see it as selfish if one’s livlihood is compromised, and considering how often people here in the city are called for jury duty, it is a burdon.

DH, in the days he was working, cheerfully went to jury duty because a day or too away from work was something we could afford. But many people cant.

I was a gubmnt employee and was compensated for sitting in jury room.

[JaneV2.0]

I would have liked to have had the experience, but I was called for a Washington County case just after I had moved out of state. My SO was on a jury that soundly acquitted the defendant.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I'm in the lounge adjacent to the juror assembly area as I type this. This is so bizarre.....I keep getting texts from work as the person who is filling in for me doesn't know the role - through no fault of their own may I add - and I keep getting texted with questions and asking for advice. This is very new - the only communication I've ever gotten from jobs on time off was desperate attempts to try to get me to come in. So bizarre to be asked for advice.

And something else bizarre today too was that a judge came down to talk to the assembled jurors and it was like he was sales pitching the entire concept of jury service - My guess is there's been a lot of pushback as many people can't afford to show their face here given the declining standards of living in America, low wages for this cost of living, and increasing prices with no real increases to match. In 2005 when I went through this process it was as if there was an expectation that you submit to the process - now there seems to be an awareness that for many people, it's both too much to ask and excessive in general (I refer to economics here and how many people are one paycheck away from being homeless in America). Interesting to see the process kiss the rear end of those summoned ever so slightly. Rob

[flowerseverywhere]

Rob, you will be missing a golden opportunity to represent your people. That is what the system is for.

If if you were unable to work starting today, for whatever reason the banquet serving industry would continue without a blip. Believe me. Only a specialized brain surgeon or the like is likely to be missed.

i just read your second post. If you are ever accused of a crime I hope your peers don’t feel like you do

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob, you will be missing a golden opportunity to represent your people. That is what the system is for.

If if you were unable to work starting today, for whatever reason the banquet serving industry would continue without a blip. Believe me. Only a specialized brain surgeon or the like is likely to be missed.Au contraire. I may be no brain surgeon, true that, but I am getting texted - seven times already since 7 AM - regarding work flow/procedures/paperwork/documentation/office staff personalities. Certainly the show can go on without me, I'm a dime a dozen, but without someone else who has some handle on the role there will be client complaints and chargebacks. Not good and not necessary. Rob

[iris lilies]

I'm in the lounge adjacent to the juror assembly area as I type this. This is so bizarre.....I keep getting texts from work as the person who is filling in for me doesn't know the role - through no fault of their own may I add - and I keep getting texted with questions and asking for advice. This is very new - the only communication I've ever gotten from jobs on time off was desperate attempts to try to get me to come in. So bizarre to be asked for advice.

And something else bizarre today too was that a judge came down to talk to the assembled jurors and it was like he was sales pitching the entire concept of jury service - My guess is there's been a lot of pushback as many people can't afford to show their face here given the declining standards of living in America, low wages for this cost of living, and increasing prices with no real increases to match. In 2005 when I went through this process it was as if there was an expectation that you submit to the process - now there seems to be an awareness that for many people, it's both too much to ask and excessive in general (I refer to economics here and how many people are one paycheck away from being homeless in America). Interesting to see the process kiss the rear end of those summoned ever so slightly. Rob

During our jury service here we endure a canned video about the justice system and the importance of our role in it. It is a little hokey, but also the judges and attornies, if we actually get into a courtroom, thank us sincerely for serving. They go out of their way to sound appreciative.

I have never understood the idea that as a jurist, we sit in judgement. No, we dont. We are there to determine fact. We arent “judging” the accused, we are fact checking. If Person A is dead and Person B is accused of doing the deed, we weigh the facts surrounding Person B’s involvment.

[JaneV2.0]

For God's sake, just do your civic duty. You'll probably learn something in the process.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Some good news! It's 9:49 AM here in Arizona and out of 4 cases today, two have already been resolved with no jurors necessary - probably plea deals made and accepted. Hoping, hoping, hoping, the magic number of 0 cases arrives before noon. And something else interesting - I was handed a piece of paper to fill out and one of the questions asked was......drumroll please......my zip code - completely independent of my address. Mmmmmm......profiling much? (but in this one case it may actually work for me, odd though that is). It's still offensive anyway. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

For God's sake, just do your civic duty. You'll probably learn something in the process.Jane, I am not trashing you with what I am about to post - really, I am not. We often seem to see eye to eye and I don't mean to trash you here. I just want to pose a question, then maybe you will understand where I am coming from. What's more important, my civic duty as you say, or dealing with a crisis at work I can't be there to correct.....a job which pays me enough money that I am paying taxes into the system for to hopefully support what limited safety nets we have in this country? I'll take the latter.

And the crisis at work is a screwed up late minute shipment requiring a staffing change and plating change (and for the kitchen, a menu change) for today's lunch. I would be of much more service in the workplace right now, earning money and putting out fires and paying taxes. So I see it. Rob

[SteveinMN]

FFS. Just. Sit. There. And. Do. It.

Complaining about how "the system" puts your ZIP code down when 1) you don't want to participate when given the opportunity to perform a duty of citizenship; and 2) you want out for monetary reasons is not A Good Look. If you were the accused at a jury trial, would you want the only folks hearing your case to be only those who had the free time or a a reimbursement to serve? How close are those people to "your peers"?

Think of the longer game, Rob. Or move someplace where jury trials are unnecessary.

[SteveinMN]

dealing with a crisis at work I can't be there to correct
So who's gonna die if you alone are not there to fix the problem?

Seriously, perspective. If, as you say, you're "a dime a dozen", someone else can figure out how to respond to the customer. If you're that critical to your company's work, you really should have documented policies and procedures and a succession plan. Let sitting jury duty be the illumination to what apparently is a terrible gap in your company's workflow.

[LDAHL]

Jane, I am not trashing you with what I am about to post - really, I am not. We often seem to see eye to eye and I don't mean to trash you here. I just want to pose a question, then maybe you will understand where I am coming from. What's more important, my civic duty as you say, or dealing with a crisis at work I can't be there to correct.....a job which pays me enough money that I am paying taxes into the system for to hopefully support what limited safety nets we have in this country? I'll take the latter.

And the crisis at work is a screwed up late minute shipment requiring a staffing change and plating change (and for the kitchen, a menu change) for today's lunch. I would be of much more service in the workplace right now, earning money and putting out fires and paying taxes. So I see it. Rob

It’s just jury duty. Nobody’s asking you to hold Bastogne against the Nazis.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I am breathing a little easier. I was able to take a break outside and make some calls and come up with a new plating arrangement that is actually easier and less time consuming for staff....and just right before staff set out in the dining area to set up for my area's conference meal. Close, very close, but solved. Office off my rear end and my fill in (I feel for them, this young man had no training whatsoever and is flying by the seat of his pants, something that happened to me in a lower level management role (very lower level) at the North Rim of the Grand Canyon some years ago) is very grateful as it's off his hands. Got the office to deal with the staffing level/labor cost issues, which is not my call/area anyway........now I guess this show can go on. There is a chance I may be going upstairs into a courtroom as there is a case going forward at 10:30 PM, which is right now.

We'll see how this goes. I'm just relieved the fires at work are put out (at least for this very brief window of time) - I am for once making money I find worthwhile and wish to do my best, no excuses, no exception, no explanations, and no qualifications.....just my personal best work period. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

It’s just jury duty. Nobody’s asking you to hold Bastogne against the Nazis.LOL I'd love to use this line during a last minute food and beverage crisis.......but know better. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

So who's gonna die if you alone are not there to fix the problem?

Seriously, perspective. If, as you say, you're "a dime a dozen", someone else can figure out how to respond to the customer. If you're that critical to your company's work, you really should have documented policies and procedures and a succession plan. Let sitting jury duty be the illumination to what apparently is a terrible gap in your company's workflow.Much of food and beverage is last minute, by the seat of your pants and survivalistic in nature - I'd even go so far as to call it Darwinistic. How I've survived it all these years seriously when I have time to comtemplate, is very much a mystery to me. But to my point....succession plan? No such thing exists and I've never heard of such a thing in a non-executive f and b position. Perhaps at the very highest end but not in everyday food and beverage. We do have documented policies and procedures but during last minute crisis, it's all survival based. That's just how it goes and this does not mesh at all well with something like jury duty - there's really no room for such in this biz unless you are part time or on-call and not in management. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob, I hated jury duty and was surprised and distressed when I was chosen. It was extremely stressful to sit in judgment on my peers.
On the other hand, I felt good doing my civic duty and felt good that I made myself available to be on the jury, as I am a fair person and I would want someone like myself on a jury if I were ever in that situation.
So for me, it was a matter of duty and of doing unto others as I would want done to me. I believe in our jury system and I need to do my part to make sure that we still have a jury system. I think it is a duty of citizenship, and transcends duty to my coworkers, and yes, I had to miss work and lost money.

I don't quite understand your take on this, as I believe that our jury system is one of the protections that we have as citizens. I don't understand why you are not invested in protecting a fair jury system.Tybee. your posts has really made me think for a bit and I wanted to take some time before I replied to you. I do agree with you - the thought of sitting in judgement on my peers in this setting is very stressful to me, too - but I'm going to guess for a different reason?

My take is that there are too many laws, that victimless crimes should often not be prosecuted, and that the American (and to be fair, also Canadian) way of punishing those convicted of both felonies and misdemeanors for the remainder of their lives through various bars that can not be overcome with any kind of record - I have a hard time, a very hard time being part of that. I'm not saying that all crimes should not be punished - certainly I'd agree with murder and rape and exploitation of the elderly and child abuse or whatever heinous awful crime you can think of should be punished. But I've got issues with the system not allowing for a fresh start EVER once convicted (enough so that I'd have no problem doing an automatic not guilty in many cases) and also for the sentencing gap that exists between men and women for similar crimes (men serve longer sentences on average and I ABSOLUTELY would use my vote for a not guilty for this reason alone).....let's just leave it that much of how American justice is doled out and how it works flat out does not work for me. I am 100% unable to see this or to divorce myself from this stance.......and I've known too many people in the 85006 who were mistreated by the justice system - I can't unsee this, either.

Realistically, I am indeed unfit to be a juror based on the expectation of impartiality. I just am unable to provide this - my life experiences in America have rendered me unable to meet this requirement.

For the record, I find this fact both depressing and stressful. It would be nice if I were capable of believing in the system and if I were capable of filling the role that society seems to expect as far as jury duty goes - but that ship sailed long ago. Life showed me/taught me lessons that preclude myself from every being able to fit this expected role. As it is said in Spanish - Asi es la vida. So is life.

Give me some credit. With my life experiences I still showed up for jury duty anyway - I know folks in the 85006 who refuse to appear for moral and ethical reasons. At least I showed. Given my life experiences, I consider this a concession. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Update: Down to one case remaining with no one from the pool called upstairs! So hoping to be out of here by noon.......Rob

[ToomuchStuff]

There is a lot of settling/plea dealing on criminal cases, on the day of the trial. One common thing said, is Do you want all those unhappy to be here, people coming up and deciding your fate.
Civil trials, are more likely to go through, IMHE.

[gimmethesimplelife]

And I got my wish!!! Out by 11:40 AM and no uncomfortable judgemental situations to endure. Color me grateful on this one. It could have been much more unpleasant. I'm off to the Convention Center - I'm sure they will be glad I'm dropping by and offering to punch in. Rob

[ToomuchStuff]

Did you get thanked for your service?

[LDAHL]

LOL I'd love to use this line during a last minute food and beverage crisis.......but know better. Rob

I keep my grandfather's Silver Star where I can see it every morning - both as a salutary reminder that I am a lesser son of braver sires, and to ponder the debt I owe those who paid in blood and grief to build and preserve this experiment of ours. A few hours in a courthouse seems like little enough to ask.

[ToomuchStuff]

I keep my grandfather's Silver Star where I can see it every morning - both as a salutary reminder that I am a lesser son of braver sires, and to ponder the debt I owe those who paid in blood and grief to build and preserve this experiment of ours. A few hours in a courthouse seems like little enough to ask.

This is one that I want a like button for. Gold star flag in the living room, bullet in the woodwork in the kitchen, both reminders of things done to give us the chance of life we have.

[JaneV2.0]

When the going gets tough, I remind myself that my father survived combat in the jungles of New Guinea. Sometimes it helps.

[herbgeek]

I guess I'm really surprised that someone who has advocated for multi million dollar lawsuits against cops, doesn't also want to participate in the process that would yield such a judgement.

[catherine]

I had a jury experience in which I was in a minority that had a "reasonable doubt" that the prosecution had proven guilt. The majority seemed to believe that the police would not likely arrest, and that the prosecution surely would never proceed against a person unless they had done something to deserve it. It was stressful for me, because in that jury room I was trying to stir up some critical thinking, but most of the others wanted to say "guilty, and get it over with". But the stress on us jurors was small compared to the ordeal of incarceration that could have befallen the accused and his family.

I found it incredibly stressful, too. Too long a story to relay on a post, but it was not fun. But I agree that someone has to do it.

[SteveinMN]

Give me some credit. With my life experiences I still showed up for jury duty anyway
I saw this a couple of decades ago on an on-line mailing list:

Democracy quits working when the citizens quit working at it. Then they become subjects.

I try to never forget that. I am a citizen. And I will work hard to prevent becoming a subject.

And I did serve jury duty.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I guess I'm really surprised that someone who has advocated for multi million dollar lawsuits against cops, doesn't also want to participate in the process that would yield such a judgement.Thank You for your post here. You have really made me do some thinking and since I was given today off (too much overtime) I have time to respond to your post, Herbgeek.

As to your comment regarding not understanding why I don't care to participate in a process that indeed does offer huge paydays for law enforcement officer misdeeds when caught on video (always leave home with a fully charged smartphone!!!!!)......I can see where my take on jury duty could be perceived as inconsistent with my belief in cashing in on the illegal, unconstitutional and abusive behaviors of law enforcement officers - here's an explanation.

I know people in the 85006 who are unable to work due to having a brush with the law in their past - some are large brushes with the law, some are quite trivial and minor - no difference - due to background checks and due to America (and to be fair, too, Canada is guilty of this) giving no second chances to those with a criminal past (that sounds so awful too for some of these petty and minor offenses) they are unable to work.

I personally believe (and you don't have to agree with me here and I'm not trying to convert anyone) there there is some kind of afterlife and I don't want to be punished for participating in a system that would ruin a stranger's life for committing some kind of low level offense. I am not capable of such and I don't believe this citizenship is worth doing such to a stranger - I deserve better. Should I have sat on a jury (God forbid, no religious offense intended to anyone) for a low level offense, I would have to vote an immediate not guilty so as to not ruin a stranger's life due to background checks hindering them for the rest of their life. Should I encounter any kind of threatening backlash, this to me would be fodder for a political asylum claim to one of the better countries. I don't know if such a claim would be successful to be honest, but at least I might be able to draw some kind of attention to the plight of those victimized by the system for the rest of their lives, with no real chance at a second chance - and once again, I'm including Canada in this as Canada does this too.

I just am too decent of a human being to ruin a stranger's life by voting guilty for a low level offense. Now if we were talking murder or rape or elder abuse or child abuse - were there actual evidence that was beyond dispute - I'd somewhat reluctantly have to vote guilty as I am a decent human being. This is not an auto-vote in other words.....but the courthouse I was at yesterday was misdemeanor based - lower level offenses. I'd have no choice but to auto vote not guilty as I've seen how brutal and non-compassionate America is to those with a minor record. I just can't do this to another human being and would have no problem with using such as fodder to get out of America permanently if forced to do so in any way. My moral compass is that sharp and that strong.

I hope this answers your post in a clear and understandable way. And Thank You, Herbgeek, for making me think. I always appreciate that. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

I saw this a couple of decades ago on an on-line mailing list:


I try to never forget that. I am a citizen. And I will work hard to prevent becoming a subject.

And I did serve jury duty.Hi Steve!

On the surface I'd agree with your quote about democracy. On the surface only, to be clear.

The problem is that I have known far too many people for whom America truly does not work, some of whom through no fault of their own. Because of this, with all due respect, I don't agree with this quote. For far too many people, America as it stands today truly does not work - and I am unable to look the other way and pretend this is not the case.

Maybe you can understand some of my posts better now because I've posted the above? I don't see the system overall the way many folks here do, and I'd hazard to guess (?) that my life experiences and what I've seen have something to do with this.

Sad part is, at this late date if I could snap my fingers and somehow unsee and unlearn what I have seen and learned that has led me to such stances - I wouldn't do it. It would be like taking my basic humanity away and I would not want that. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

I'm coming back to post something that has indeed dawned on me - there is one inconsistency in my posts. Believing as I do, it would be more understandable and more fitting in with my moral compass to serve on a jury (instead of actively working on getting out of jury duty) and auto vote someone accused of a low level offense as not guilty to spare a stranger how evil America is to someone with a low level record when looking for work or applying to rent an apartment. So there is some inconsistency in my takes - I'll admit that here and now.

My only excuse (and it's a bit of a cheap one at that) is that I find the entire justice system in America - civil, criminal, and family courts - corrupt and sleazy (sleazy meant in a non-sexual way).....but with my moral compass that should not matter and I should still serve and auto vote not guilty. So some of you are right - there is inconsistency here. Offshore me - I'm not perfect......I'm just afraid of America, that's all. Rob

[LDAHL]

I have no particular problem with employers’ preference for employees who don’t have criminal records. Sometimes we need to live with the consequences of our mistakes. I certainly don’t think it invalidates the legal system.

[bae]

What is a “low level offense”?

[gimmethesimplelife]

What is a “low level offense”?Pretty much any misdemeanor outside of a DUI which I personally on the surface consider serious but then with BAL levels going down to generate more revenue, I'd be tempted to automatically vote not guilty on a DUI too based on what the BAL level in a particular state is that would constitute a DUI. In some states it's getting ridiculously low to generate revenue and I'd have to vote not guilty in this case to be able to live with myself. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

I have no particular problem with employers’ preference for employees who don’t have criminal records. Sometimes we need to live with the consequences of our mistakes. I certainly don’t think it invalidates the legal system.With all due respect, for any non-violent misdemeanor, I'd have to say I disagree. I don't see how it's possible to forgive America for this based on the fact that you can be arrested these days for sneezing too loud......For a serious felony, I would say that yes, the employer should have the right to take this into consideration, yes. My problem is that like with so much of America these days, there is no sense of proportion or perspective - this I personally will never be able to forgive. Rob

[LDAHL]

With all due respect, for any non-violent misdemeanor, I'd have to say I disagree. I don't see how it's possible to forgive America for this based on the fact that you can be arrested these days for sneezing too loud......For a serious felony, I would say that yes, the employer should have the right to take this into consideration, yes. My problem is that like with so much of America these days, there is no sense of proportion or perspective - this I personally will never be able to forgive. Rob

So you will never be able to forgive your grudge against America, but you insist America should forgive any crimes you deem less than serious. You insist on your “right” to various benefits, but chafe at dirtying your hands at the most quotidian form of public service.

Me, I’m a warts and all kind of guy. I’m happy to do what I can to advance the American project even though there may be aspects I’m not thrilled with. My moral compass must not be the precision instrument yours is.

[gimmethesimplelife]

So you will never be able to forgive your grudge against America, but you insist America should forgive any crimes you deem less than serious. You insist on your “right” to various benefits, but chafe at dirtying your hands at the most quotidian form of public service.

Me, I’m a warts and all kind of guy. I’m happy to do what I can to advance the American project even though there may be aspects I’m not thrilled with. My moral compass must not be the precision instrument yours is.Let's put it this way.....I know someone who is 42 years of age who can not find employment based on a misdemeanor public intoxication charge - non-violent, by the way, from 15 years ago. This to me is going too damn far and I am unable to set foot in any US courtroom and not live in fear of this excess and overreach. And this isn't the ohly person I know of who can't work due to background checks and having something small and stupid like this in their past. How has America earned any loyalty when your life can be ruined so easily? I am 51 years of age, please someone explain this one to me. I have yet to hear an explanation that makes any sense to me, period......I may be in a place where I am doing better now, and I am not ungrateful for this and I am more than willing to work my rear end off and pay any and all taxes I owe - but I can't unsee such things as this aforementioned overreach.

Let's just hypothetically say I won the lottery next week and come up with a off the top of my head number - $7 million for the sake of argument. This money would still not make me unsee anything or realistically change me in any real way - other than I'd probably buy one nicer watch and maybe have some remodeling done on the house I co-own. I wouldn't unsee the above, however. Rob

[ApatheticNoMore]

Let's put it this way.....I know someone who is 42 years of age who can not find employment based on a misdemeanor public intoxication charge - non-violent, by the way, from 15 years ago. This to me is going too damn far and I am unable to set foot in any US courtroom and not live in fear of this excess and overreach. And this isn't the ohly person I know of who can't work due to background checks and having something small and stupid like this in their past. How has America earned any loyalty when your life can be ruined so easily?

I kind of don't believe that such a charge really prevents them from getting work (although it might for certain jobs yes ..). Because people with criminal records work period. Now 100 other factors may not be in their favor, I really don't know their situation, this explanation just doesn't fully add up though. Also you can get old charges removed from your record as well I believe, so I don't think they are always permanent (consult a lawyer on that one though).

[gimmethesimplelife]

I kind of don't believe that such a charge really prevents them from getting work (although it might for certain jobs yes ..). Because people with criminal records work period. Now 100 other factors may not be in their favor, I really don't know their situation, this explanation just doesn't fully add up though. Also you can get old charges removed from your record as well I believe, so I don't think they are always permanent (consult a lawyer, this does not constitute legal advice :~)).In Arizona there is no expungement as I understand until your 99th birthday, at which point your record reverts to clear. Not going to help many people though as most people don't live that long......so this may not hold true in all states as some states are indeed nicer about such issues, but not Arizona. A public intoxication here is enough to make it nearly impossible to find work - though to be fair, self employment I believe is still an option. Not everyone is cut out for it, though. And I still stand by my original point - this is overreach. Perhaps not the original conviction, but the life ruining effects of it indeed are. Yet another reason one should never trust nor speak to the police.....I would agree being drunk in public is stupid but in the abscence of any violence or other illegal behavior while a given person is intoxicated in public, is it really worth ruining a life over?

I don't come equipped with the ability to forgive America for how draconian this is, I just don't. Rob

PS And for those who don't get this, this person is on Medicaid and food stamps completely legally - costing the system money vs. having them work and pay taxes into the system. For those of you who believe in America, would you not rather have this person working? How exactly is the system served by denying this person access to legal income? I just don't get it......

[LDAHL]

Let's put it this way.....I know someone who is 42 years of age who can not find employment based on a misdemeanor public intoxication charge - non-violent, by the way, from 15 years ago. This to me is going too damn far and I am unable to set foot in any US courtroom and not live in fear of this excess and overreach. And this isn't the ohly person I know of who can't work due to background checks and having something small and stupid like this in their past. How has America earned any loyalty when your life can be ruined so easily? I am 51 years of age, please someone explain this one to me. I have yet to hear an explanation that makes any sense to me, period......I may be in a place where I am doing better now, and I am not ungrateful for this and I am more than willing to work my rear end off and pay any and all taxes I owe - but I can't unsee such things as this aforementioned overreach.

Let's just hypothetically say I won the lottery next week and come up with a off the top of my head number - $7 million for the sake of argument. This money would still not make me unsee anything or realistically change me in any real way - other than I'd probably buy one nicer watch and maybe have some remodeling done on the house I co-own. I wouldn't unsee the above, however. Rob

If someone told me they’d been unemployable over the past fifteen years soley due to a single night in the drunk tank, I admit I’d be somewhat skeptical. I certainly wouldn’t take it as evidence of the moral bankruptcy of America.

I do agree that even sizable amounts of money may have little impact on one’s baggage. I would be willing to test the hypothesis however.

[Alan]

Let's put it this way.....I know someone who is 42 years of age who can not find employment based on a misdemeanor public intoxication charge - non-violent, by the way, from 15 years ago. I work with a Director of Quality Control who has a Public Intoxication and Indecent Exposure (Urinating in Public) record. Employers aren't particularly interested in misdemeanor charges unless they impact upon the employee's ability to be trusted. I think your acquaintance is not telling you the entire story.

My brother is a felon, he served 8 years in a Federal Penitentiary on Drug Distribution charges. He can find a job, he just can't find one he wants. Your story seems similar.

[rosarugosa]

In my former corporate job, I lived and breathed background checks for a Fortune 100 company. We almost never failed to hire based on a misdemeanor and certainly never for an old irrelevant misdemeanor. I think the only times we didn't move forward on a candidate with a misdemeanor record was if it involved relatively recent dishonesty in the workplace, or if candidate lied to us about the circumstances (and then it was really about the lying and not the misdemeanor) or if a candidate had a large number of misdemeanors.
In recent years, felony convictions did not necessarily mean we would not hire someone. There is a lot of "ban the box" legislation, so the felony had to be relevant for us to fail a candidate. We were also bound by the VCCA (Violent Crime Control Act) and were prohibited from hiring anyone who had ever been convicted of a felony involving dishonesty or a breach of trust.

[dmc]

I don’t buy it either. We regularly hired people with DUI’s in their background. I gave a job to a guy just out of college who told us he was going to lose his license due to his having a second dui conviction. He had to supply his own vehicle for work due to insurance, but we paid him for the vehicle.

I know there were many others, we did have a policy that you couldn’t be hired for two years if you failed a drug test.

Sounds like he really just doesn’t want to work and is using his past as an excuse. Or just not interested in the jobs that are out there.

[flowerseverywhere]

It is unlawful to deny a job based solely on a misdemeanor in Arizona.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/arizona-law-employer-use-arrest-conviction-records.html

also, I knew many people who got in minor scrapes and were arrested and convicted of misdemeanors and dwi’s, as I worked in mental health for many years. They got jobs doing farm work, or worked for landscapers, in construction or in warehouses. Is that not the purpose of employers like goodwill and Salvation Army to help people get on their feet? To be successful though when you are given a chance you have to be hard working, on time and compliant with all directions.

[ApatheticNoMore]

also, I knew many people who got in minor scrapes and were arrested and convicted of misdemeanors and dwi’s, as I worked in mental health for many years. They got jobs doing farm work, or worked for landscapers, in construction or in warehouses.

yes I'm not sure I'd recommend some of these jobs except if one was an illegal pretty much though as they hire all illegals pretty much (farming, landscaping and construction - uh yep - in any state with a large illegal population you are not going to easily break into much of that as a citizen and maybe even less if you aren't even of latino ancestry). There might be some construction for government or something that requires citizenship. Amazon warehouses maybe or something though.


Is that not the purpose of employers like goodwill and Salvation Army to help people get on their feet?

there is that

[bae]

In Arizona there is no expungement as I understand until your 99th birthday, at which point your record reverts to clear.

You must live in some alternative Arizona.

http://azlawhelp.org/articles_info.cfm?mc=13&sc=66&articleid=147

[gimmethesimplelife]

You must live in some alternative Arizona.

http://azlawhelp.org/articles_info.cfm?mc=13&sc=66&articleid=147Bae, if you would read the link you provided, you would see that the article itself states that an expungment in Arizona merely sets aside the guilt - the record is still there and is accessible via background check -not only the original conviction but also the arrest record. These do not go away as the result of a set aside in Arizona - this is something I know as my activism has now branched out into criminal justice reform - something I will be tackling with other activists once my hours are cut way back this April. Rob

PS Came back to add, don't believe me - read paragraph 8 for yourself, beginning with the words, "In Arizona......" for proof. Your own article summarizes this reality that I refer to much better than I ever could. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

yes I'm not sure I'd recommend some of these jobs except if one was an illegal pretty much though as they hire all illegals pretty much (farming, landscaping and construction - uh yep - in any state with a large illegal population you are not going to easily break into much of that as a citizen and maybe even less if you aren't even of latino ancestry). There might be some construction for government or something that requires citizenship. Amazon warehouses maybe or something though.



there is thatGoodwill has been publicly called out both in Arizona and online for their policy of not hiring anyone with any kind of record whatsoever, a record that dates back to 2007. As to the Salvation Army I don't know, perhaps they do work with those with minor records, here I will admit I don't know whether they do or not. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

It is unlawful to deny a job based solely on a misdemeanor in Arizona.

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/arizona-law-employer-use-arrest-conviction-records.html

also, I knew many people who got in minor scrapes and were arrested and convicted of misdemeanors and dwi’s, as I worked in mental health for many years. They got jobs doing farm work, or worked for landscapers, in construction or in warehouses. Is that not the purpose of employers like goodwill and Salvation Army to help people get on their feet? To be successful though when you are given a chance you have to be hard working, on time and compliant with all directions.As to your first sentence, it happens every day in Arizona. I can't speak for other states, but it happens every day in Arizona. And it is very difficult to prove and many of the people it happens to can't afford an attorney and are so beaten down to begin with they just give up. Realistically, as I've slowly explored yet another area in which America works against it's citizens and not for them, I'm yet more afraid of this country. Rob

[flowerseverywhere]

yes I'm not sure I'd recommend some of these jobs except if one was an illegal pretty much though as they hire all illegals pretty much (farming, landscaping and construction - uh yep - in any state with a large illegal population you are not going to easily break into much of that as a citizen and maybe even less if you aren't even of latino ancestry). There might be some construction for government or something that requires citizenship. Amazon warehouses maybe or something though.



there is that

arizona has an unemployment rate of just over 4%. Can you provide proof of your statement that illegals are hired before citizens?

[flowerseverywhere]

Bae, if you would read the link you provided, you would see that the article itself states that an expungment in Arizona merely sets aside the guilt - the record is still there and is accessible via background check -not only the original conviction but also the arrest record. These do not go away as the result of a set aside in Arizona - this is something I know as my activism has now branched out into criminal justice reform - something I will be tackling with other activists once my hours are cut way back this April. Rob

PS Came back to add, don't believe me - read paragraph 8 for yourself, beginning with the words, "In Arizona......" for proof. Your own article summarizes this reality that I refer to much better than I ever could. Rob

a good place to start with justice reform would be in a courtroom serving on a jury.

[gimmethesimplelife]

arizona has an unemployment rate of just over 4%. Can you provide proof of your statement that illegals are hired before citizens?In the Phoenix area this holds true....check out the stats for Yuma and for Nogales and for Santa Cruz County (this is a small County right on the border with Mexico that has Nogales on the US Side as it's County Seat). The whole state is not low unemployment like Phoenix is. Though I will say that over half this state's population lives in Metro Phoenix - 4.5 million in the Metro Area out of a statewide population of just over 7 million. (Arizona just cracked over 7 million in population and is now the 14th most populous state). Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

a good place to start with justice reform would be in a courtroom serving on a jury.Part of me agree with you - had I been called up and served I could have auto-voted not guilty and spared an individual a permanent criminal record for life - this would be true reform and a very pure form of reform, too. As it unfolded, not a single person from any of the juror groups went upstairs to a courtroom for the selection process the day I served. So now reform via this method was possible - not my fault. Rob

[flowerseverywhere]

As to your first sentence, it happens every day in Arizona. I can't speak for other states, but it happens every day in Arizona. And it is very difficult to prove and many of the people it happens to can't afford an attorney and are so beaten down to begin with they just give up. Realistically, as I've slowly explored yet another area in which America works against it's citizens and not for them, I'm yet more afraid of this country. Rob

Please provide more than anecdotal proof of this. If it is true, why have not these people banded together for change? Is there no aclu or legal aid in Arizona?

Perhaps American is not the one working against it’s citizens, but the citizens themselves. People can overcome remarkable hurdles. Women would not be voting, African Americans would still enslaved and be using coloreds only bathrooms and ten year olds would be working in factories if they just stood around waiting and hoping for things to change. Life is hard and unfair. Every day is a fight for millions of Americans. But change does not come easy.

[ApatheticNoMore]

arizona has an unemployment rate of just over 4%. Can you provide proof of your statement that illegals are hired before citizens?

no and noone ever could because what would proof even consist of? If I had data that most of the labor force in various industries was illegal would that be proof or would I have to prove citizens were turned down for the job (the latter is near impossible to ever have proof for). Even showing most of various industries is illegals isn't so easy because employers don't exactly announce that they hire illegals as well that is technically illegal - if one is going to break the law it is generally a good idea not to announce it and even to have fake documents if you can. If anyone has this data perhaps it is the IRS but I don't know how much they share it. My boyfriend does work in the construction industry though, it's no secret.

[bae]

Bae, if you would read the link you provided, you would see that the article itself states that an expungment in Arizona merely sets aside the guilt - the record is still there and is accessible via background check -not only the original conviction but also the arrest record. These do not go away as the result of a set aside in Arizona - this is something I know as my activism has now branched out into criminal justice reform - something I will be tackling with other activists once my hours are cut way back this April. Rob

PS Came back to add, don't believe me - read paragraph 8 for yourself, beginning with the words, "In Arizona......" for proof. Your own article summarizes this reality that I refer to much better than I ever could. Rob

I think you aren’t understanding what you are reading. And don’t have a context to evaluate it.

[dmc]

Part of me agree with you - had I been called up and served I could have auto-voted not guilty and spared an individual a permanent criminal record for life - this would be true reform and a very pure form of reform, too. As it unfolded, not a single person from any of the juror groups went upstairs to a courtroom for the selection process the day I served. So now reform via this method was possible - not my fault. Rob

im sure the victim in the case might not agree with you.

[dmc]

no and noone ever could because what would proof even consist of? If I had data that most of the labor force in various industries was illegal would that be proof or would I have to prove citizens were turned down for the job (the latter is near impossible to ever have proof for). Even showing most of various industries is illegals isn't so easy because employers don't exactly announce that they hire illegals as well that is technically illegal - if one is going to break the law it is generally a good idea not to announce it and even to have fake documents if you can. If anyone has this data perhaps it is the IRS but I don't know how much they share it. My boyfriend does work in the construction industry though, it's no secret.

so illegals don’t seem to have a problem getting work, but Robs friend can’t get a job because of a supposed petty crime. I don’t understand why his friend didn’t just escape the country and live elsewhere, he must already live close to the southern border.