View Full Version : Question about women and what they want........
I've been wanting to talk about this for awhile. Wasn't sure this was the right place, but here goes.
OF COURSE no one should be harassed/abused, etc. And please don't say what I'm saying is "She asked for it". (Well....maybe she did, but unconsciously/unintentional and then had limits that weren't obeyed).??
I always think in terms of instinctual behavior. Yes, we've come a long way baby in terms of trying over-ride instinct, with mores, laws, etc.
But.....what bothers me with the recent "Me Too" movement is that I think many women talk out of both sides of their mouths, so to speak.
I'm glad most of the Women at the Golden Globe awards who wore black (didn't watch it, just saw some news on it), didn't have their boobs hanging out, as usual (and the "don't you just really want me?" look on their faces).
Of course, they still had hair and make-up.
I'm having trouble understanding why women need to "dress up", wear make-up, wear provocative clothing, yet still demand to not be treated a certain way.
For the most part, I think this triggers some behavior in men that they don't want (or do they??) Maybe they want attention up to a certain point, and not beyond.??
I was a hippie in the 70's and came to the conclusion that everything on the outside is unimportant.....so I quit wearing make-up and "dressing up" and tried to always be direct and honest.
It's what's inside that counts, right? I've pretty much remained that way ever since.
I've told women in the past "You don't need to wear make-up" and their usual answer is "Well, you're just lucky your skin is so nice." Huh? And then they say they are not doing it for men, they are
doing it for themselves. Huh? Is it all just a matter of buying into the notion that you're not a decent person if you don't look a certain way? And was this put out there to just make a lot of money by the skin/cosmetic/clothing industry? I find it all very unfortunate.
And all these women celebrities who expose themselves at the other awards ceremonies.........what do they think about themselves doing that??
I'm just trying to understand behavior. It seems to me to be a trap that they are or aren't aware of.
What complicates everything is the notion that women must look a certain way..........clothes, make-up, etc. It drives me crazy. And it just seems totally in denial to not appreciate how the way they dress can be a come-on to the men around them.
Again......there's no excuse for a man to continue to bother a woman who says NO..........but I do have a lot of questions........
There were definitely boobs and revealing dresses. I did watch..mainly because I was just drained and too tired to leave the couch.
Cathy A., My thought is that women should dress any way they want and men should control their "urges". I should be able to run down any street at any time of the day stark naked if I want and not be approached or propositioned or harassed in any way. The way to stop harassment is for men to STOP harassing, just like the way to stop rape is for men to stop raping.
iris lilies
1-9-18, 12:27pm
There were definitely boobs and revealing dresses. I did watch..mainly because I was just drained and too tired to leave the couch.I started skimming the web during The Golden Globes show to see what they were wearing. I was horrified to see everyone in black, it looked like a convention of crows and witches. Then I figured out they were protesting something, probably Trump. I rolled my eyes and moved on.
I do actually like The Golden Globes awards although seldom watch the televisin production. I like those awards because they give out a LOT of them, separating comedies and dramas, and including television productions. If one is going to watch an awards show this is one I recommend because you see many Hollywood elite all dressed up but do not have to endure all of the tribute moments and musical numbers of the Oscars. BUt I guess there was some fandango Operah Winfrey award, so that was a piece of boredom.
People are complicated creatures.
Just because you drive a Maserati or wear Versace doesn't mean you deserve to be robbed at gunpoint.
I didn't see much of the Golden Globes, but loved the elegance of black attire.
I enjoyed wearing makeup when I did, and I may again. I liked the way it made me look. Although one of the best compliments I ever got was from a drag queen, who looked at me appraisingly and remarked "You're pretty in a plain sort of way." He probably would have liked me even better with eyelashes...(Which I could put on in under a minute in a moving vehicle.)
What complicates everything is the notion that women must look a certain way..........clothes, make-up, etc. It drives me crazy. And it just seems totally in denial to not appreciate how the way they dress can be a come-on to the men around them.
I think that notion of looking a certain way drives much of this. Definitions of style (and, indirectly, beauty [which we've discussed on SLF before]) vary considerably among societies and even among times in the same society. What is considered a modest bathing suit in America in 2018 was scandalous by the standards of America not 100 years ago.
Western society venerates youth and money. There's a lot of effort and noise telling people they should look younger and minimize physical flaws (hence hair dye, Spanx, makeup, plastic surgery) and to show they have the money it takes to replace that perfectly functional sweater or dress with a new one that has a different cut/hemline and color.
It's a kind of peer pressure with ready designations of success. So, from that perspective, I believe women do dress like this for themselves. I don't say this to imply women are sheep to listen to the voices telling them to not look old or out of fashion; they, like men, are immersed in the messages, from childhood on. I do believe men have had, over the years, other ways to make themselves stand out in society (stature, power, money) -- options which have not been available to women for that long -- so they've largely resisted the drumbeat.
But I often wonder myself at how many people convince themselves that they can ignore the instinctual. Not that that excuses harassment or any kind of violence. But it does create an interesting dichotomy. Makes one wonder what life would be like in America if society adopted the Middle East Muslim form of shapeless head-to-toe covering for men and women in (what I like to think anyway) a less-patriarchical society.
I've been wanting to talk about this for awhile. Wasn't sure this was the right place, but here goes.
OF COURSE no one should be harassed/abused, etc. And please don't say what I'm saying is "She asked for it". (Well....maybe she did, but unconsciously/unintentional and then had limits that weren't obeyed).??
I always think in terms of instinctual behavior. Yes, we've come a long way baby in terms of trying over-ride instinct, with mores, laws, etc.
But.....what bothers me with the recent "Me Too" movement is that I think many women talk out of both sides of their mouths, so to speak.
I'm glad most of the Women at the Golden Globe awards who wore black (didn't watch it, just saw some news on it), didn't have their boobs hanging out, as usual (and the "don't you just really want me?" look on their faces).
Of course, they still had hair and make-up.
I'm having trouble understanding why women need to "dress up", wear make-up, wear provocative clothing, yet still demand to not be treated a certain way.
For the most part, I think this triggers some behavior in men that they don't want (or do they??) Maybe they want attention up to a certain point, and not beyond.??
I was a hippie in the 70's and came to the conclusion that everything on the outside is unimportant.....so I quit wearing make-up and "dressing up" and tried to always be direct and honest.
It's what's inside that counts, right? I've pretty much remained that way ever since.
I've told women in the past "You don't need to wear make-up" and their usual answer is "Well, you're just lucky your skin is so nice." Huh? And then they say they are not doing it for men, they are
doing it for themselves. Huh? Is it all just a matter of buying into the notion that you're not a decent person if you don't look a certain way? And was this put out there to just make a lot of money by the skin/cosmetic/clothing industry? I find it all very unfortunate.
And all these women celebrities who expose themselves at the other awards ceremonies.........what do they think about themselves doing that??
I'm just trying to understand behavior. It seems to me to be a trap that they are or aren't aware of.
What complicates everything is the notion that women must look a certain way..........clothes, make-up, etc. It drives me crazy. And it just seems totally in denial to not appreciate how the way they dress can be a come-on to the men around them.
Again......there's no excuse for a man to continue to bother a woman who says NO..........but I do have a lot of questions........
Women are in competition with other women. All the time. Must dress a certain way, must wear makeup before leaving the house.
Showing up at a workplace not being properly dressed or wearing a least a little makeup would be frowned on.
As for the skin showing......I have never let my daughters go out like this......there are animals on the loose, better to be safe than sorry.
Men wore heels and wigs to be pretty not that long ago. It started because they needed heels to stay in the saddle when riding horses and went crazy from there. People have followed the leader forever. If one dressed black, society often condemned one as a witch and society followed the leader. When leadership leads to judgement and exclusion if non-conforming, the masses will obey so as not be excluded. It takes enormous courage to face the risk and wrath of society's mesmeric behaviour. Men and women follow the leaders but the leaders often demand different behaviour from the sexes based on the leaders' questionable decisions. Is that not how gangs operate? I am sure that the Rohingya in Myanmar attacks horrify many Buddhist soldiers from whom such behaviour is demanded and supported by Buddhist monks.
Why do people do what they do? Often, they perceive it as survival. When I see clothes that sexualize 3-5 year olds etc., and few alternative choices that let them just be little kids having a life, I am not surprised that certain behaviour seems puzzling. The 'princess' parties and such like are horrible, IMO, for indoctrinating how girls ought to perceive themselves.
Rather than asking why females do what they do, ask why society is so judgemental about options of dress, behaviour and expectations of the sexes. Who made the decisions?
Speaking of little girl princess parties.......I have to interject something I saw last night. I was waiting a few minutes early to watch "The Good Doctor" and preceding it was "The Bachelor". OMG.........I felt like vomiting. :(
I noticed some interesting comments on this topic in our local newspaper. An older woman wrote in and said she was raised in a home where their father would make them change their clothing if he thought it was too revealing or "sexy." She said that women today send mixed messages and don't act like "ladies" anymore therefore they aren't respected by men. Younger women wrote in and said that it is not their duty to dress a certain way just to curtail male impulses. I can recall as a 9 yr old finding some Playboys in the alley and being totally surprised that women would want to be that way. DH and I had a lengthy conversation about boobs and their intended purpose. Native women sat around nursing babies and men didn't get "tittilated" as they do now. Lots of societal conditioning since then I suppose. We are all a bit confused - right?
Slut shaming is always in style.
The trick is not to be "shameable" in whatever way that works for you. Own your attitude.
Speaking of little girl princess parties.......I have to interject something I saw last night. I was waiting a few minutes early to watch "The Good Doctor" and preceding it was "The Bachelor". OMG.........I felt like vomiting. :(
Yep, daughter and I both agree "The Bachelor" is trash TV, degrading to all who participate.
Chicken lady
1-9-18, 3:03pm
I was talking to dh about this recently because he has a beautiful young niece who is making really bad decisions that put her in dangerous situations. And he is very concerned about how to stop her behavior. While I agree that she needs to change her behavior, I also said (regarding her male “friends”) but you know, she should be able to pass out drunk naked at that party and every one of those guys should be concerned only about getting her home safely.
he said I was an unrealistic.
for this reality, I agree. But speaking as one woman. That’s what I want. I society in which a teenage girl can walk through town naked with a bag of cash at night and expect to safely reach her destination. And I don’t care if I can’t have it, we should be moving in that direction. (And I hold nothing against any man who wants to enjoy the view. but the view is all that is on offer until further notice.)
my best friends in high school and college were boys and men, and everyone of them but one would have met my criteria in the first paragraph. The one spiked my drinks at a party one night. I know this, because there was a loud aguement in the kitchen and then another one of the guys came out and informed me “d is spiking your drinks.” Then there was a second loud argument in the kitchen, and the host escorted d to the door. I was later tucked in under the dining room table to sleep it off.
later d apologized and said he didn’t mean me harm, but he had never seen me drunk before and thought I was funny and wanted the show to go on. I never trusted him again.
i took these guys back to my room between activities and kept talking to them while I changed, they turned around without being asked. (They knew I was stopping to change and did not think it was code for “let’s fool around”). I slept on their floors and in their beds, and shared mine. And never did they make me feel uncomfortable.
i expect my son, my husband, my brother to be those men. Just like I expect them not to rob banks, kick puppies, or pee on the floor.
ToomuchStuff
1-9-18, 3:26pm
he said I was an unrealistic.
for this reality, I agree. But speaking as one woman. That’s what I want. I society in which a teenage girl can walk through town naked with a bag of cash at night and expect to safely reach her destination. And I don’t care if I can’t have it, we should be moving in that direction.
The wolves are all hoping more sheep move in that direction.
Slut shaming is always in style.
What are you trying to say, bae?
ApatheticNoMore
1-9-18, 4:10pm
Some people say women dress that way because it is how they have been taught to present themselves in a patriarchal society. It has *some* truth. Makeup may be required to have the proper look for one's job, women have seen nothing but idealized sexualized images of women all their lives (no not as many of men), and women live in a society where men still control most of the reigns of power and they have to take that into account, that by and large they don't run the place. Women compete with other women, but of course in any career context they also compete with men.
Anyway women should not be harassed regardless of how they dress.
Hollywood is it's own thing and real hard to relate to because it does also sell sex appeal, it also sells how fancy the dresses are (people, mostly women, do watch awards in part to see the dresses). So it's not that easy to relate it to struggles against sexual harassment in the office, in the blue collar or service workplace etc. since Hollywood really is off in it's own reality to some degree.
I was a full-throated supporter of 1970s feminism, but I find 21st century feminism increasingly annoying. I suppose it's a glass-half-empty-glass-half-full kind of thing. If you are a woman living in most modern countries, it has never, in the entire history of the planet, been a better time to be a woman in terms of rights and protections. Inequalities remain, but, given the different imperatives that drive men and women, that seems to be part of the human condition. And these days I feel like women spend an awful lot of time complaining about things that are less about sexism than the are about the inherent unfairness of life.
IMHO, what I call "first-world feminism" too often isn't asking for equal treatment, it's asking for special treatment. An example: At my company, a woman can get up to three months maternity leave at half pay with no loss of benefits. Now, I'd like to get three months off at half pay with no loss of benefits, but that ain't happening. I could argue that in modern society having children isn't a biological necessity, it's a lifestyle choice. Why should I be denied the same treatment because I chose not to have children? Because life isn't fair.
Be careful what you wish for. I'm reminded of a movie I saw a few years ago--don't remember the title--in which two mob guys are pulled over by a female officer. One of the mob guys pulls out a gun and shoots her dead. "What did you do?" says the other. "You just shot a broad!" His friend replies: "You're a male chauvinist! She wanted to be equal, so I made her equal!"
Equal rights, like most things in life, is a two-edged sword.
Chicken lady
1-9-18, 4:55pm
Old hat - society needs those children. Maybe not all of them, but we can’t actually predict which ones. Society does not need you to take a vacation unless your performance of your job is actually detrimental.
i personally think all parents should get equal time off with pay.
and I am against shooting police officers of any gender.
Chicken lady
1-9-18, 4:58pm
There are wolves and there are dogs. Civilized societies generally shoot the first and feed the second. If the wolves are willing to keep their distance, live and let live.
I was a full-throated supporter of 1970s feminism, but I find 21st century feminism increasingly annoying. I suppose it's a glass-half-empty-glass-half-full kind of thing. If you are a woman living in most modern countries, it has never, in the entire history of the planet, been a better time to be a woman in terms of rights and protections. Inequalities remain, but, given the different imperatives that drive men and women, that seems to be part of the human condition. And these days I feel like women spend an awful lot of time complaining about things that are less about sexism than the are about the inherent unfairness of life.
IMHO, what I call "first-world feminism" too often isn't asking for equal treatment, it's asking for special treatment. An example: At my company, a woman can get up to three months maternity leave at half pay with no loss of benefits. Now, I'd like to get three months off at half pay with no loss of benefits, but that ain't happening. I could argue that in modern society having children isn't a biological necessity, it's a lifestyle choice. Why should I be denied the same treatment because I chose not to have children? Because life isn't fair.
Be careful what you wish for. I'm reminded of a movie I saw a few years ago--don't remember the title--in which two mob guys are pulled over by a female officer. One of the mob guys pulls out a gun and shoots her dead. "What did you do?" says the other. "You just shot a broad!" His friend replies: "You're a male chauvinist! She wanted to be equal, so I made her equal!"
Equal rights, like most things in life, is a two-edged sword.
Seems like EVERYONE expects special treatment in the U.S. Maybe that's the natural course of things when you're raised to think anything is possible, and you have every RIGHT to have it all. ?? We are a very spoiled nation, in many ways.
Seems like EVERYONE expects special treatment in the U.S. Maybe that's the natural course of things when you're raised to think anything is possible, and you have every RIGHT to have it all. ?? We are a very spoiled nation, in many ways.
I haven't seen that in my life; quite the opposite. I'm surrounded now by people with serious physical problems who are flailing around doing the best they can--and sure, they probably have it better than people in third world countries, but they certainly neither have it easy or expect to. You've said this many times before, and I have no idea what you're talking about. Sorry.
Slut shaming is always in style.
I have always wondered: What's wrong with being a slut? I can't really think of anything.
So is bae saying that I'm slamming sluts? UL is saying there's nothing wrong with sluts. People, I'm just raising questions about how we possibly got to some of the problems we have now. When I see inconsistencies, I have to ask why. I'm talking about etiologies. Maybe I'm the only one here who likes to do that and it comes across as something else. I don't know.
So is bae saying that I'm slamming sluts? UL is saying there's nothing wrong with sluts. People, I'm just raising questions about how we possibly got to some of the problems we have now. When I see inconsistencies, I have to ask why. I'm talking about etiologies. Maybe I'm the only one here who likes to do that and it comes across as something else. I don't know.
Keep asking questions. No harm in questions! No harm in people responding either.
I once questioned a co-worker about what constituted a slut in his mind. We finally determined it was a woman who wanted sex more often than the two times a week he considered proper. Words failed me.
Old hat - society needs those children. Maybe not all of them, but we can’t actually predict which ones.
If you want to talk about the needs of society--or at any rate the planet--people should be paid not to have children. I don't think we're in danger of running out of children any time soon, including talented ones.
I once questioned a co-worker about what constituted a slut in his mind. We finally determined it was a woman who wanted sex more often than the two times a week he considered proper. Words failed me.
Wow.
ToomuchStuff
1-10-18, 1:53am
I once questioned a co-worker about what constituted a slut in his mind. We finally determined it was a woman who wanted sex more often than the two times a week he considered proper. Words failed me.
There is the old one about the different between a slut, and the slang for female dog. A slut will screw anyone, while the b, will screw anyone but you.
That brought back some memories, LOL.
Chicken lady
1-10-18, 6:59am
Old hat, paying people not to have children in the US will only be sustainable if we increase the number of immigrants. Native born citizens are currently reproducing well below replacement rate. And while it may be desirable to have the population decrease - a decrease that rapid would be very disruptive. Boomers are already stressing the system.
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