View Full Version : PA court rules against privy for Amish
Packratona!
1-10-18, 3:10pm
http://www.ydr.com/story/news/2018/01/08/pa-amish-family-wanted-continue-using-their-privy-court-rules-they-must-connect-electric-powered-sew/1013116001/
Thoughts? I think another example of too much government intrusion.
http://www.ydr.com/story/news/2018/01/08/pa-amish-family-wanted-continue-using-their-privy-court-rules-they-must-connect-electric-powered-sew/1013116001/
Thoughts? I think another example of too much government intrusion.
That stinks.
Williamsmith
1-10-18, 8:36pm
I live among the Amish. They are no different than anyone else....no more or less pious. The suggestion that they could be exempt from sewage connection but an “Englishman” can’t is the very definition of predjudice. The Amish have no problem riding motor vehicles, using your electricity while on construction sites, etc. They could install a composting toilet inside instead of digging a hole in the ground but they are frugal to a fault.
Simple solution, sell a strip of land that abuts the sewer line to someone in the clan. There, property no longer abuts sewer line. BTW, Warren County is about as rural as it gets.
"Used electricity ... through phones." When I had a landline it worked even when the power was out.
ToomuchStuff
1-11-18, 3:08pm
I live among the Amish. They are no different than anyone else....no more or less pious. The suggestion that they could be exempt from sewage connection but an “Englishman” can’t is the very definition of predjudice. The Amish have no problem riding motor vehicles, using your electricity while on construction sites, etc. They could install a composting toilet inside instead of digging a hole in the ground but they are frugal to a fault.
Simple solution, sell a strip of land that abuts the sewer line to someone in the clan. There, property no longer abuts sewer line. BTW, Warren County is about as rural as it gets.
That solution would only work, until something was built there, and then they now would abut the sewer line again.
I expect this case isn't done as I expect to see someone file a further appeal to take it to the Supreme court (freedom of religion verses general welfare type of case), in the way cases happen when religion and kids get involved.
The Mennonites that are local, have no issue with electricity, as long as they generate it. I am not 100% sure that all Amish are the same, as I know there are differences between Mennonite sects. Could that also be an option besides a composting toilet?
The requirement to connect to sewer or water mains as they are extended to your property is quite common in the USA, and is generally done to resolve the freeloader/tragedy-of-the-commons issue.
There are certainly other solutions available to this Amish family to process their waste (any number of modern septic designs would do, and they are quite common in my community. Some require power, not all. Some produce useful compost material even.)
Basing their argument to not connect on the electricity usage seems weak sauce to me. And there are designs that would avoid even that (here one hamlet’s system has the pumps for such things owned by the sewer company...)
"Used electricity ... through phones." When I had a landline it worked even when the power was out.
Landlines have electricity on them.
What are the other options besides a composting toilet? Dehydrator requires electricity.
When in town, whatever sect of the Mennonite or Amish will use the store toilets, the store refrigeration used to protect food purchased, the lights to shop, ... and all such amenities which are all powered by electricity. One cannot be selective just when it costs money. It is a non-story to me.
My dad was always amused by the local Mennonites who drove their buggies to our farm to ask for a ride to town that was further than a horse and buggy could easily drive and return in one day. Selective observation yet again. He always took them but...
I used to live among the Amish. You have to have some understanding of why they do the things they do before you go down the “selective observation” line of accusation.
Sort of like how it might be helpful to study the Talmud before calling out Orthodox Jews for some aspect of their culture that you don’t understand.
What are the other options besides a composting toilet? Dehydrator requires electricity.
There are plenty of gravity-fed no-electricity-needed septic system designs available.
Here’s the most boring sort: http://www.co.thurston.wa.us/health/ehoss/pdf/Gravity.pdf
That stinks.
The privy? Or the court decision? ��
Not all the Amish are the same. There are truly hardcore orthodox versions all the way to those who have "accommodated" some aspects of English life, like cell phones.
There is probably a little more to this story. Perhaps the community has a law regarding septic usage so all are required to connect and "privies" are no longer allowed if a sewer system is available. They might be saying that one property owner is just like the neighbor in regards to sewage disposal.
Williamsmith
1-11-18, 6:57pm
http://www.timesobserver.com/news/local-news/2016/10/permits-problem/
More info on the Amish Crappergate Investigation.
http://www.timesobserver.com/news/local-news/2016/10/permits-problem/
More info on the Amish Crappergate Investigation.
Ah. Typical rural don’t-need-no-permitz fun.
Packratona!
1-20-18, 4:16pm
I used to live among the Amish. You have to have some understanding of why they do the things they do before you go down the “selective observation” line of accusation.
Sort of like how it might be helpful to study the Talmud before calling out Orthodox Jews for some aspect of their culture that you don’t understand.
I had the exact same thought.
Teacher Terry
1-20-18, 4:22pm
Since the Amish run huge, incredibly cruel puppy mills I am happy anytime something happens that they don't like. They are supposedly so religious and yet they treat dogs as if they have no feelings and deserve to be tortured their entire lives. I hope that there is a special very hot place awaiting their arrival.
I just think anyone should be able to have a privy in their back yard. It didn't take anything but a few decades of "progress" to render simple ways to manage natural functions as not only obsolete, but illegal. Silly. this isn't the Ganges. This is rural PA.
Since the Amish run huge, incredibly cruel puppy mills I am happy anytime something happens that they don't like. They are supposedly so religious and yet they treat dogs as if they have no feelings and deserve to be tortured their entire lives. I hope that there is a special very hot place awaiting their arrival.
What percentage of the Amish run cruel puppy mills?
Teacher Terry
1-20-18, 4:44pm
There is no way to know for sure since there are 10k puppy mills in the US both licensed and unlicensed. Since many are unlicensed there is no way to be sure of the numbers. I used to live in that part of the country and the Amish are among the worst offenders. Any more questions you can look up yourself.
“The Amish”. “They”. Hateful.
iris lilies
1-20-18, 6:01pm
What percentage of the Amish run cruel puppy mills?
I am sure it is a small percentage but it doesnt much matter when talking about the cruelest of the cruel in mills, and
I dont want to look up anything about it since it will plant images in my head I wish to not have.
If talking about the overall worthiness of Amish as citizens vis a vis their crappers, I dont know where to stand.
One one hand, public health in our modern world calls for modern sewage and septic systems. What is that saying, oh yeah: engineers have contributed significantly more to the health of modern Western culture through waste systems than any group of physicians ever did.
But it is likely that the small number of Amish who expect to retain outhouses aren’t a high enough population to affect the overall health of the surrounding citizenry.
That reminds me, what do the Amish do about mandated vacinations? Do they participate in those programs?
DH has a relationship with Amish cabinet makers about 80 miles away. They were making cabinets for several of our
neighbors, and DH helped Amish guys install them, letting them use his power tools. They like to use power tools when able to use them. We have visited their shop and they always treat DH well even if it has been a couple of years since they last saw him.
Packratona!
1-21-18, 11:40am
Did not know that about the puppy mills. That is terrible. Some things I like about Amish and Mennonite traditions (varies according to group) and some I dislike very much.
There really is no universal Amish code / set of rules. The decisions are made by each individual governing bishop. Therefore, what is allowed in one place may not be elsewhere.
There are both similarities and differences between Amish and Mennonite followers. Generally, Mennonite are more "worldly" and allow more of the progressive stuff - electricity, phones, cars, etc.
As for the topic at hand - I don't see it as particularly excluding the Amish, but I may be wrong. It seems to be a location / jurisdiction issue to me. Anyone living there must accommodate this situation and hook up.
I just think anyone should be able to have a privy in their back yard. It didn't take anything but a few decades of "progress" to render simple ways to manage natural functions as not only obsolete, but illegal. Silly. this isn't the Ganges. This is rural PA.
It isn't Alabama, either.
https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2017/12/12/570217635/the-u-n-looks-at-extreme-poverty-in-the-u-s-from-alabama-to-california
They are now dealing with hookworm because of lax sanitation there
Mennonite rum the gamit from dressing their women like "Little House on the prairie" to churches with feminist gay-married female pastors. I was raised Mennonite. I looked and lived just like everyone else in my community, except we didn't go to dances or drink alcohol. We were somewhere in the middle of the gamit..
Packratona!
1-24-18, 9:08pm
Mennonite but especially Amish have a common ancestry/geneology that does define the culture. So just as much cultural traditions as religious.
Yes - I'm culturally Mennonite even though I'm agnostic.
Packratona!
2-11-18, 1:51pm
One thing that is related to the cultural/religious Menno background, that seems to be carried on even by non-religious Mennos, is the pacifism ideal.
Yes - I'm culturally Mennonite even though I'm agnostic.
The court can order them to do it, but they cannot force them to use it. Where I live, they require a septic system to be put in. I did not want one but we put it in so we would comply and get an occupancy approval but we have never used it. We use a sawdust toilet instead. It stinks that they have to use their own money to comply, however, the government does not have the right to go against their religious beliefs and all they have to do is comply and never use the electricity or septic system. It's as simple as that.
Williamsmith
2-11-18, 8:55pm
The court can order them to do it, but they cannot force them to use it. Where I live, they require a septic system to be put in. I did not want one but we put it in so we would comply and get an occupancy approval but we have never used it. We use a sawdust toilet instead. It stinks that they have to use their own money to comply, however, the government does not have the right to go against their religious beliefs and all they have to do is comply and never use the electricity or septic system. It's as simple as that.
I will agree with you on one thing....the whole thing STINKS!
Yes - the pacifism is a draw. But the realistic piece of my brain acknowledges that without our military we would not be free. It’s a conundrum.
Williamsmith
2-11-18, 11:55pm
Yes - the pacifism is a draw. But the realistic piece of my brain acknowledges that without our military we would not be free. It’s a conundrum.
The Quaker...Mennonite.......Amish.....May argue:
Matthew 23...The Sermon on the Mount or the Creed is quite clear that the individual Christian response to evil is non resistance (pacifism). And there is no exception given to organized government to resist evil with force. This is an invention of man, who was not willing to accept the simplicity of the doctrine and the radical change it would bring about.
And so the organized church taught that it was fine for Christians to participate in violence as long as the organized church deemed it righteous. The question always has been, how does a Christian enter an army and prepare him or herself to murder other men or women or children in direct contradiction of the commandments of Christ? First, is a Christian permitted to judge evil from good? If so, How does a Christian choose what force and punishment to apply and finally how can any Christian be drafted to go against the commandments in the sermon? Either these simple doctrines apply......or they don’t.
Teacher Terry
2-12-18, 2:49pm
Men wrote the bible and it is mostly simple stories to teach people that were not educated how to operate under a moral code. Nothing less and nothing more. Churches have murdered so many innocent people during the crusades etc that it makes me sick to think about it.
Churches have murdered so many innocent people during the crusades etc that it makes me sick to think about it.
Yes, but they couldn't accomplish in thousands of years what other ideologies such as National Socialism or Communism have been able to do in just a century or so.
Teacher Terry
2-12-18, 3:41pm
Alan, I am sick of all the wars, senseless killing, suicide bombers etc. Not just picking on the churches of the past.
I've often wondered why so many people fixate on the "turn the other cheek" remark rather than the "sell your cloak and buy a sword" remark.
Are they that intent on "exposing the hypocrisy" of Christianity that they can see something that somehow escaped Augustine or Thomas Aquinas?
Williamsmith
2-15-18, 12:13pm
I've often wondered why so many people fixate on the "turn the other cheek" remark rather than the "sell your cloak and buy a sword" remark.
Are they that intent on "exposing the hypocrisy" of Christianity that they can see something that somehow escaped Augustine or Thomas Aquinas?
The “sell your cloak and buy a sword” command was given by Jesus in order that the prophesy might be fulfilled. If you remember, later Peter used one of the two swords to cut off the ear of one of the court agents that came to arrest Jesus. At which time, Jesus rebuked Peter and told him to put the sword away, those that live by the sword...die by the sword.
There is overwhelming documentation that Jesus repeatedly encouraged a pacifist response to violence. There is only scant and vague excuses that the organized churches rely upon to justify righteous violence against evil. The nonviolent response to evil is very radical and one which would naturally bring aspects of the kingdom of god to fruition on earth .....
Id be satisfied with us just calling 17 years in Afghanistan......enough.
There is a large pacifist contingent within the Roman Catholic Church which aligned itself with the Protestant peace churches over the years.
You can make the Bible say anything. Hence conflicting theologies, theologians, and denominational splinter groups.
"I came not to bring peace but a sword."
I think a reasonable reading of scripture doesn't necessarily require us all to become radical pacifists any more than to sell all we have and give it to the poor.
"War is an ugly thing, but not the ugliest of things". I think there is some moral distance between meekly walking into the ovens when bidden and fighting back.
The Quaker...Mennonite.......Amish.....May argue:
Matthew 23...The Sermon on the Mount or the Creed is quite clear that the individual Christian response to evil is non resistance (pacifism). And there is no exception given to organized government to resist evil with force. This is an invention of man, who was not willing to accept the simplicity of the doctrine and the radical change it would bring about.
And so the organized church taught that it was fine for Christians to participate in violence as long as the organized church deemed it righteous. The question always has been, how does a Christian enter an army and prepare him or herself to murder other men or women or children in direct contradiction of the commandments of Christ? First, is a Christian permitted to judge evil from good? If so, How does a Christian choose what force and punishment to apply and finally how can any Christian be drafted to go against the commandments in the sermon? Either these simple doctrines apply......or they don’t.
+1
+1 on your response to LDAHL, too.
I asked my DH if he considered himself more of an American, or a Christian. He said American. I personally identify more as a Christian, mainly because I believe there are dangers inherent in nationalism. Nations come and go, but I believe in the universal principles such as those preached by Jesus. So if I am going to align myself with the principles of Christ over the principles and constitution of our nation, I think I have to listen to what Christ had to say about pacifism. After all, even he didn't fight back when attacked.
I'm not a Christian, and certainly not a Bible scholar, but my sense is that the Sermon on the Mount is the defining tenet of Christ's teachings. And as such, is pretty much at odds with all the pious posturers who assert their religiosity in the town square on a regular basis.
I'm not a Christian, and certainly not a Bible scholar, but my sense is that the Sermon on the Mount is the defining tenet of Christ's teachings. And as such, is pretty much at odds with all the pious posturers who assert their religiosity in the town square on a regular basis.
I’ve always been partial to “judge not lest ye be judged” myself.
Williamsmith
2-15-18, 6:23pm
I'm not a Christian, and certainly not a Bible scholar, but my sense is that the Sermon on the Mount is the defining tenet of Christ's teachings. And as such, is pretty much at odds with all the pious posturers who assert their religiosity in the town square on a regular basis.
You have concisely summed up Tolstoy’s , “What I Believe.”
Speaking of the Sermon on the Mount, I'm actually currently reading Eknath Easwaran's commentary on the Beatitudes (https://www.amazon.com/Original-Goodness-Commentary-Beatitudes-Inspiration-ebook/dp/B00KSNGQFC/ref=sr_1_5?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1518733742&sr=1-5&refinements=p_27%3AEknath+Easwaran). It's a fantastic book.
I'm not a Christian, and certainly not a Bible scholar, but my sense is that the Sermon on the Mount is the defining tenet of Christ's teachings. And as such, is pretty much at odds with all the pious posturers who assert their religiosity in the town square on a regular basis.
Me, too. The actual words of Jesus, reported in more than one of the gospels - and probably the most ignored and/or "interpreted" (as in "no, this is what he really meant") passages in the Bible.
Until the end of days, people will always be able to make the cheap and easy argument against Christianity that its adherents are insufficiently Christlike. They will be right, in a trivial sort of way. But I think they miss a much larger point about striving to do better. Such sneering, whether well-informed or not, can serve a useful purpose in the humility and self-examination it can promote.
Packratona!
2-21-18, 8:20pm
The Quaker...Mennonite.......Amish.....May argue:
Matthew 23...The Sermon on the Mount or the Creed is quite clear that the individual Christian response to evil is non resistance (pacifism). And there is no exception given to organized government to resist evil with force. This is an invention of man, who was not willing to accept the simplicity of the doctrine and the radical change it would bring about.
And so the organized church taught that it was fine for Christians to participate in violence as long as the organized church deemed it righteous. The question always has been, how does a Christian enter an army and prepare him or herself to murder other men or women or children in direct contradiction of the commandments of Christ? First, is a Christian permitted to judge evil from good? If so, How does a Christian choose what force and punishment to apply and finally how can any Christian be drafted to go against the commandments in the sermon? Either these simple doctrines apply......or they don’t.
Personally, I think that if the person who orated the Sermon on the Mount was a traditional Jew, (not a Christian), then what he spoke necessarily needs to be considered in the context including linguistic, of traditional Jewish belief and practices. That would differ profoundly from the Christian meaning and application of it.
Packratona!
2-21-18, 8:32pm
I’ve always been partial to “judge not lest ye be judged” myself.
Depends on what the word "judge" meant in that religious and linguistic context of the speaker and original listeners. Could be interpreted many different ways. We do not live in a perfect world, so judication is necessary. I believe that the person who made this statement was well aware of this. But the point I believe he was making is, it must be done extremely cautiously, and only by those qualified to do it. If it involves punishment, especially.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.