Homeless shelters

[BikingLady]

We all know the homeless issue in America. My thoughts/question is and I hope I phrase this correctly, Are these homeless shelters becoming the equivalent of the old time Poor Houses?

I ask as out town has a "few" and now another has been approved after much back and forth from the homeowners in the area of it. This one will house 60 a night. Hoping to be 24 hour eventually. A fence it being put up where the picnic tables will be. Ordinances will be set so said for waiting on sidewalks till opening at night. The YMCA already lets anyone needing a shower use it. The public pool has now opened up in the winter as a dinner and night shelter.

The tiny town next door has just approved a shelter 24/7 for up to 6 months at a time.

I D K the answer it just seems like so much and such an issue.

Yesterday I donated two old Trek bikes to what opened a couple years ago as ReCycle bike shop for those in needed. Classes had to be taken on minor repair and rules to get a bike. I went there to drop the bikes off and Wow it was like a store now, yes bikes for sale too. This hurts the tiny local bike store I believe. Goodwill has beautiful stores now. Ours is next door to WM and Starbucks.

Kind of a rant but just wondering

[SteveinMN]

We all know the homeless issue in America. My thoughts/question is and I hope I phrase this correctly, Are these homeless shelters becoming the equivalent of the old time Poor Houses?

I D K the answer it just seems like so much and such an issue.
It seems to be an issue in our city, as well. In fact, the main homeless shelter here, which has been overwhelmed for years, finally tore down the old "mat room" building and is replacing it in two stages with facilities about twice the size. They are also, however, restructuring their services. The new "mat room" will hold as many homeless people as they can legally put in there; the demand appears to be there (especially in winter). But nicer facilities (shared rooms with individual bathrooms and even some efficiency-apartment-like setups) depend on demonstrated abstinence from substance abuse and/or holding a job. The highest level (literally, the top floor in one of the new buildings) is the "apartments" and residents are charged a nominal rent which is then returned to them when they are ready to move to a "mainstream" living place elsewhere in the area.

Homelessness is a complex issue. Some see it as a moral failure. Others see it as a personality or lifestyle issue. Still others see people who were just barely hanging on until one last rap on the knuckles knocked them off their perch. I think all of those reasons for homelessness -- except the first -- is true. But the first really muddies the waters.

I don't know the answer either except that these folks need to have some place to live, especially in double-digit-below-zero weather, that does not endanger others (other homeless or other citizens). I have no qualm with shelters requiring residents to not fight or abuse alcohol or drugs during their stay though that excludes some homeless people. And I applaud the structure that rewards those who can beat addiction and develop the social and economic responsibility most of us like to see in our fellow citizens. A lot of people just need a break their way. Many more people are just one bad break away from homelessness themselves. It's not good out there and I don't see much on the horizon that will change that long-term.


Yesterday I donated two old Trek bikes to what opened a couple years ago as ReCycle bike shop for those in needed. Classes had to be taken on minor repair and rules to get a bike. I went there to drop the bikes off and Wow it was like a store now, yes bikes for sale too. This hurts the tiny local bike store I believe. Goodwill has beautiful stores now. Ours is next door to WM and Starbucks.

Kind of a rant but just wondering
I know plenty of people who will never consider buying anything used. Not even clothing their kids will grow out of in six months or a Halloween costume. Or hard furniture. Or a bike. Or a smartphone.

I think places like ReCycle and Goodwill are amping it up for few reasons. First, it's a more attractive environment that attracts customers who have a hard time envisioning themselves in a thrift or resale store. Second, there's more "stuff" out there than they can deploy to the needy but their costs aren't going down any, so selling some covers those expenses. And, third, if you want to present your storefront as an alternative to the friendly local bike shop or the dollar store or Target/Walmart, putting your employees in such spaces emphasizes aspects of business and customer service that operating out of a grungy storefront or basement does not.

The tiny local bike store will persevere, if the people managing it are any good at all. They have access to expertise and product ReCycle will never reliably have. To some customers, that's a critical difference. The tiny local bike store does not have to race to the bottom economically if they can provide customers enough value for whatever extra they're paying. People still pay for bottled water and cable TV, don't they?

[dado potato]

SteveinMN,

Do you know if your local homeless shelter sends a driver to nearby hotels to pick up leftovers from "continental breakfasts"? My hunch is that the hotels put out a substantial amount of stuff that has very little shelf-life... for instance, scrambled eggs, cooked breakfast sausage, etc. Then at 9:30 AM, breakfast is over. The hotels probably have a few employees who partake of some of the leftovers. But... if there is more leftover perishable food, does it just go into the dumpsters at the hotels?

BTW, I have some memories of the Sunken Garden, Como Park Zoo & Conservatory. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5lmXFGBxgc

[LDAHL]

Working in local government, I have found there to be three location issues you can count on for a local outcry: Low income housing, homeless shelters and registered sex offenders. Not surprisingly, wealthier neighborhoods can usually come up with plausible reasons why they shouldn't be sited there.

[razz]

Back decades, there used to be homes with rooms to rent and meals provided or a home with rooms to rent sort of like a motel room. Where have these all gone? i know I rented a room when at university with a hot plate, a mini fridge and a shared bathroom. It worked and was affordable. Where do people go with minimal funds? Are all homeless people unemployed or low in funds? unhealthy or having mental issues or drug issues? It strikes me as a very complex issue for each community to deal with. To date, I have seen no clear sense of direction in managing the situation or are there examples of successful management?

[iris lilies]

Working in local government, I have found there to be three location issues you can count on for a local outcry: Low income housing, homeless shelters and registered sex offenders. Not surprisingly, wealthier neighborhoods can usually come up with plausible reasons why they shouldn't be sited there.

Open prisons, that is the trifecta of all of the above. That is what we in my neighborhood spent years and thousands and thousands of dollars fighting, and were successful.That was the state that was attempting to fook us over.

We also spent many hundreds of citizen hours helping to/hoping to shape the rejiggered public housing complex down the block.. Sadly, the rejiggering was completed only for part of the area. That was the feds that were fooking us over.

Stupid mf bureaucrats, a pox on them. Present company excepted. :)

[rosarugosa]

I've read some things about Portland Maine being innovative in dealing with homelessness.

https://www.pressherald.com/2017/05/04/more-homeless-escape-streets-as-portland-opens-30-new-apartments/

[SteveinMN]

Do you know if your local homeless shelter sends a driver to nearby hotels to pick up leftovers from "continental breakfasts"? My hunch is that the hotels put out a substantial amount of stuff that has very little shelf-life... for instance, scrambled eggs, cooked breakfast sausage, etc. Then at 9:30 AM, breakfast is over. The hotels probably have a few employees who partake of some of the leftovers. But... if there is more leftover perishable food, does it just go into the dumpsters at the hotels?
I don't think there's a direct arrangement among the shelter and local hotels. But I know the big food bank at which I volunteer has a large food rescue program which includes an increasing number of restaurants and hotels that offer their extra prepared food -- and that the homeless shelter is a client.


BTW, I have some memories of the Sunken Garden, Como Park Zoo & Conservatory. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R5lmXFGBxgc
That place is a jewel! One of my favorite things to do in winter (especially in awful stretches like the icebox we're re-entering) is to spend an hour or so inside either the Sunken Garden or the Cowles Conservatory (https://www.minneapolis.org/directory/cowles-conservatory/) in Minneapolis. It's a bit of a vacation to be around green growing things and smell wet earth for a while!

[pinkytoe]

To date, I have seen no clear sense of direction in managing the situation or are there examples of successful management?
I think it is a huge problem that is not being addressed except at local levels and then just in a stop-gap manner. This city unbeknownst to us at the time we decided to retire here has a huge homeless and growing population. We can't go to a trail or park without seeing homeless camps and all of their trash. Needles, feces, garbage. The local charity that tends to them has just added another three acres so there will be more. These types for whatever their issue are not homeless - they are vagrants who don't want to play the game and live off the generosity of others. Many are young, white males who I guess are drug addicts with no ambition but to survive another day.

[ToomuchStuff]

Back decades, there used to be homes with rooms to rent and meals provided or a home with rooms to rent sort of like a motel room. Where have these all gone? i know I rented a room when at university with a hot plate, a mini fridge and a shared bathroom. It worked and was affordable. Where do people go with minimal funds? Are all homeless people unemployed or low in funds? unhealthy or having mental issues or drug issues? It strikes me as a very complex issue for each community to deal with. To date, I have seen no clear sense of direction in managing the situation or are there examples of successful management?

Something else missing, is I have a local shopping district, with a small town Mayberry Feel. One of Walt Disney's original studio's was in it. Above those stores, are both some apartments, as well as residences that used to house those that owned the stores below.
For decades, it has been unlawful to use those as residences.

[Lainey]

The state of Utah has a Housing First policy, seems to be working well:
https://www.npr.org/2015/12/10/459100751/utah-reduced-chronic-homelessness-by-91-percent-heres-how

A selling point was that it actually costs less to house the chronic homeless than to pay for continually prosecuting them for vagrancy, etc. and it also lessens their need for trips to the ER.

[LDAHL]

Open prisons, that is the trifecta of all of the above. That is what we in my neighborhood spent years and thousands and thousands of dollars fighting, and were successful.That was the state that was attempting to fook us over.

We also spent many hundreds of citizen hours helping to/hoping to shape the rejiggered public housing complex down the block.. Sadly, the rejiggering was completed only for part of the area. That was the feds that were fooking us over.

Stupid mf bureaucrats, a pox on them. Present company excepted. :)

Comes with the territory.

I was at a hearing once where they were considering a jail expansion that would encroach on a golf course. A (literal) little old lady in tennis shoes shouted that "the gates of Hell would open" if we did so.

[Williamsmith]

Comes with the territory.

I was at a hearing once where they were considering a jail expansion that would encroach on a golf course. A (literal) little old lady in tennis shoes shouted that "the gates of Hell would open" if we did so.

Well, if you build it close enough, you can subsidize the canteen with sales of errant golf balls that fly into the prison yard. Titleist Pro V 1 balls will fetch a couple bucks.

[LDAHL]

Well, if you build it close enough, you can subsidize the canteen with sales of errant golf balls that fly into the prison yard. Titleist Pro V 1 balls will fetch a couple bucks.

The problem we have with this little urban Par 3 course are all the claims coming in from cars damaged by shanked balls.

[Williamsmith]

The problem we have with this little urban Par 3 course are all the claims coming in from cars damaged by shanked balls.

Netting?

[Teacher Terry]

Estimates are that 75% of the homeless have a severe mental illness. Why all the drinking, etc? They are trying to self-medicate their mental health issues. It is common in all socioeconomic groups for people to self medicate before actually seeking help. When Reagan emptied the psychiatric hospitals this was the inevitable result. Lainey, yes the humane approach is frequently the cheapest but people would rather vilify the homeless instead of helping them.

[Williamsmith]

Estimates are that 75% of the homeless have a severe mental illness. Why all the drinking, etc? They are trying to self-medicate their mental health issues. It is common in all socioeconomic groups for people to self medicate before actually seeking help. When Reagan emptied the psychiatric hospitals this was the inevitable result. Lainey, yes the humane approach is frequently the cheapest but people would rather vilify the homeless instead of helping them.

+1

An excellent observation. I routinely came into contact with homeless transients. As our environment can be cruel to homeless, they tended to pass through on their way south. A common practice for LEOs was to transport homeless people from the county inwhich they were found to the next county along the way.

I became aware of a Priest at a local Catholic Church who had a mission serving the homeless. I knew the person would get a good bed to sleep in for a night and a hot meal. So I often called him and dropped them off at the church.

I remebered something taught me as a child about “hungry, homeless, sick, naked, imprisoned and thirsty” marginalized people. And something about a hard heart being one thing to avoid. I believe, it makes a difference.

[Teacher Terry]

During the summer I was walking my big dog in a huge park that has a lot of homeless people. This guy about 30 petted Noki and we got to talking about animals. Turned out he was a vet tech but then got a felony conviction so could no longer work as one, etc. Very nice, not drunk, etc. I spend a lot of time giving him resources for jobs that he wrote down and what else maybe he could do with his degree, etc. He was new to the area so not having knowledge about what is available. Who comes walking along but my 44 yo son who was not very happy with me. He joined us for awhile but finally left because we were still talking. He said later he figured I was safe in daylight, lots of people and of course my big dog. This man was new to being homeless and I knew that if he acted quickly he could avoid getting ingrained into the life. He had the ability to work, had worked for a long time etc and I hope he used my leads to find work. He was not mentally ill. What did it cost me but an hour of my day. You are right WS. Once you have a hard heart you are truly lost. I always say but for the grace of God go I when I see someone in a bad situation.

[Simone]

I like what you did, Teacher Terry and Williamsmith.

Here is a video of another good Samaritan who intervened to help a mentally ill woman. She was discharged from a Baltimore hospital in freezing weather conditions (note the Samaritan's visible breath) wearing only a hospital gown and socks.

http://wwlp.com/2018/01/12/video-hospital-discharges-patient-in-gown-leaves-her-in-frigid-cold/

I think the homeless situation in our country is growing beyond the power of government agencies and charities to adequately respond. The whole economic system seems out of order.

[jp1]

Back decades, there used to be homes with rooms to rent and meals provided or a home with rooms to rent sort of like a motel room. Where have these all gone? i know I rented a room when at university with a hot plate, a mini fridge and a shared bathroom. It worked and was affordable. Where do people go with minimal funds? Are all homeless people unemployed or low in funds? unhealthy or having mental issues or drug issues? It strikes me as a very complex issue for each community to deal with. To date, I have seen no clear sense of direction in managing the situation or are there examples of successful management?

I actually just finished reading a book on this exact topic. "Living Downtown: The History of Residential Hotels in the United States." Long story short, there used to lots of low end housing opportunities, from rooming and boarding houses like you mention to single room occupancy hotels that rented cheap rooms by the week or month. But over the past 100 years concerted public policy (at least in the US, but probably in Canada too) eliminated most of these low end housing options because they were considered a menace to morals and such. Things like zoning laws and minimum size requirements for residential units all played a part.

[LDAHL]

Netting?

We'd need to set it up in the right-of-way, which the City government refuses to allow. I don't think people realize the amount of bickering that occurs between different governments.

[SteveinMN]

But over the past 100 years concerted public policy (at least in the US, but probably in Canada too) eliminated most of these low end housing options because they were considered a menace to morals and such. Things like zoning laws and minimum size requirements for residential units all played a part.
I believe most people (U.S. and Canada) have no idea how much zoning laws have altered our society, in encouraging big-box retail on greenfields (doing their part to kill vibrant downtowns), in encouraging leaving abandoned buildings vacant rather than allow "non-conforming" uses, in segregating people by economic status (and, therefore and indirectly, by skin color),... Yet the legislation that creates zoning laws often is decided by committee and only rarely generates discussion among the voting public -- if they know about the changes and their ramifications.

Another plug for the Granola Shotgun blog (https://granolashotgun.com/)...

[iris lilies]

Getting rid of boarding houses was a goal of our neighborhood. The last boarding house here left about 8 years after DH and I moved here.

While there is nothing wrong with small scale living and the simplicity of renting a room, a concentration of room renters here resulted in run down properties and tenants who were not always stellar in their behavior. It is like any other concentration of poor people, a higher degree of crime exists.

One house here that is now worth about $1 million was a boarding housein the 40’s, 50’s, and into the 60’s. It is now occupied by the daughter of the boarding house owner. This daughter is now an elderly lady. She tells tales about how strict her mothher was as the lady of the house. The house was not chopped up with partitions and bathrooms in the middle of once grand rooms like many if our fablous old houses. These renters had to have their rooms regularly inspected for cleanliness. This family has cared for this house for nearly 100 years.

Most boarding house owners were not as meticulous and our neighborhood suffered.

Now there are local zoning laws that control how many persons unrelated to each other can dwell in one housing unit. While that seems draconian, it exists to combat drug houses and the like. When we had 5 priests unrelated to each other buy a 7, 000 sq ft house here, they went for a varience of this zoning. No one here doubted this very expensive house could house these guys but I personally wondered how they could afford it. They were in some kind of Catholic priesthood that allowed them to have jobs. A good gig if you can get it.

[SteveinMN]

Most boarding house owners were not as meticulous and our neighborhood suffered.
Same story in this neighborhood with absentee landlords (we have single-family homes and some duplexes, almost no apartment buildings). Especially in winter you can tell which houses are absentee-owned. I'm glad the housing crash washed a bunch of them out of the 'hood.

[Teacher Terry]

-Our downtown used to have weekly motels. Well they tore them down and now expensive condos went up with penthouses going for a million. Looks good but what about the people that lived there? many were elderly on small incomes. It breaks my heart.

[catherine]

+1

An excellent observation. I routinely came into contact with homeless transients. As our environment can be cruel to homeless, they tended to pass through on their way south. A common practice for LEOs was to transport homeless people from the county inwhich they were found to the next county along the way.

I became aware of a Priest at a local Catholic Church who had a mission serving the homeless. I knew the person would get a good bed to sleep in for a night and a hot meal. So I often called him and dropped them off at the church.

I remebered something taught me as a child about “hungry, homeless, sick, naked, imprisoned and thirsty” marginalized people. And something about a hard heart being one thing to avoid. I believe, it makes a difference.

So nice of you to direct people to this priest you mention. The "poor" (i.e., the hungry, homeless, sick, naked, imprisoned and thirsty") will be always with us, as Jesus said. To recognize them as one of us is a great thing. I wish Dorothy Day was still around. We could use more people like her, but at least we have some compassionate priests and law enforcement officers.

[Lainey]

For many years the YMCAs would offer these Single Room Occupancy/"SRO" rooms. Many were like tiny efficiency apts. but with bathrooms down the hall and laundry elsewhere. Unfortunately they decided that was no longer part of their "core mission" and so most Ys have abandoned those.

I agree there's a need for these SROs but they won't be rebuilt in the gentrifying urban core. It's too bad there's not some way to re-use some of the large empty commercial spaces for some of these types of residences, and keep it safe by keeping some rooms for on-site managers.

[catherine]

I agree there's a need for these SROs but they won't be rebuilt in the gentrifying urban core. It's too bad there's not some way to re-use some of the large empty commercial spaces for some of these types of residences, and keep it safe by keeping some rooms for on-site managers.

I've thought that it would be great to reclaim old spaces, like parking lots, and install very small shelters. They could be as small as Japanese pods (https://kotaku.com/5990496/your-guide-to-japanese-capsule-hotels), or as large as a tiny house (https://www.curbed.com/maps/tiny-houses-for-the-homeless-villages). But the idea would be that they would simple provide shelter from the elements during the night. They could be self-policed, or perhaps have some type of oversight from social services.

[pinkytoe]

Around here, seems like every other house has an RV of some sort just sitting there for most of the year. I think about all that wasted living space when it's 15 degrees outside. Ditto empty shopping centers and malls. A real problem here is warming fires from those who don't want to stay at the shelters. The city looks the other way so the fires in the woods and parks continue.

[jp1]

In the book I mentioned they actually discussed a new SRO that recently got built in San Diego. It took much effort since it wasn't compliant with the various zoning/building codes, but it happened. I'm sure it's not fancy, but it's got to be so much better than a homeless shelter. And the cost was relatively cheap, like $25k per room. The problem with homeless shelters is that people and their stuff aren't safe. Even the crappiest of SRO's at least offer a private room with some level of security. I might not want to live in one, especially if poorly managed, but if financially my choices were that, sleeping on the street, or sleeping in a shelter, I'd definitely prefer the SRO.

[Williamsmith]

As some may know, I visited my son in Houston, Tx recently. He is restoring his house after Harvey. We took a little tour of Houston City proper. His wife is employed at Minutemaid Park where the Astros play. We walked around the inside of that facility and the field. What an unbelievable venue, completely enclosed from the weather, air conditioned for most of the year. The best of the best for consumers.

Right outside in the the parking area under an interstate overpass was a homeless village. Most had camping tents, some did not. All that they owned was laying on the ground. There were literally hundreds in this makeshift community. There were a few police officers milling around. I wondered if they were checking for wanted persons, mental health commitments or simply scooping up the dead from the night before. I can’t imagine living like that.

It ismone thing to see someone standing standing on a corner with a cardboard sign begging.....quite another to see the vast community of apparently wasting lives.

[BikingLady]

Williamsmith, I agree...we had a 2 year camp here in our town unknown to most till it was a fight by the land owners and behind Kohls. When it started making the news and pictures the uproar started. It was private land that owners had turned heads to till it got much bigger, dirtier and the begging started. Interviewing many the response was "this is home, just like yours" or "I choose this life", "I don't want to be in a shelter""I have Soc Sec payments" there was not one that said how they would rather be somewhere else. That was the sad part. Homeless shelter and support being offered and No Thanks were the responses. As I read not one took the offers. Then the dozers arrived.

[BikingLady]

For many years the YMCAs would offer these Single Room Occupancy/"SRO" rooms. Many were like tiny efficiency apts. but with bathrooms down the hall and laundry elsewhere. Unfortunately they decided that was no longer part of their "core mission" and so most Ys have abandoned those.

I agree there's a need for these SROs but they won't be rebuilt in the gentrifying urban core. It's too bad there's not some way to re-use some of the large empty commercial spaces for some of these types of residences, and keep it safe by keeping some rooms for on-site managers.

Our Y as we found out in the paper opens the showers for the homeless and the entrance sitting area. OK sounds wonderful and thoughtful, till being a full pay member and I would not use the showers and as I was on the machines and saw the men or in the parking lot. I did not feel real safe and it felt dirty, sorry but that is how it is, I don't pay to put myself in a situation that I am uncomfortable in. This is a very old Y. Our new Y is being built out side the city about 5 miles on the new hospital campus(other hospital mentioned will be women shelter) We all assume the old Y will be a shelter of some sorts.

[BikingLady]

SO I have re thought my thinking on homeless shelter. Personal experience so to say. I am still at a loss on the correct answer.

My son is on disability. He wants to get his own place and will someday I know this. He is fortunate that he has a supportive family, that is the bottom line. He went to the apartment complex here in town that is based on income. He was told 6 year wait for a unit if based on disability income. That is the going time frame in the county.

I said well there you have it that is one big reason for our large population of homeless in the area, they may have support but no place to live due to the wait. Most probably do not have family support or the family does not have any support left to give.

[rosarugosa]

Wow, if you need a place to live, a 6-year waiting list is no help.

[pinkytoe]

Seems like a lot of people these days are renting rooms within a single family house.

[BikingLady]

I really do not understand why say the old buildings downtown have to have so much done to them to upgrade to today's standards so the homeless can rent rooms. A room with a bath on each floor seems like a far better option then the street. One old building in town I read is 3 floors of little rooms as during the 1900 era that was all travelers needed to sleep at night. Nope it would a Million dollars to bring to code. SO the buildings rot.

[Float On]

I really do not understand why say the old buildings downtown have to have so much done to them to upgrade to today's standards so the homeless can rent rooms. A room with a bath on each floor seems like a far better option then the street. One old building in town I read is 3 floors of little rooms as during the 1900 era that was all travelers needed to sleep at night. Nope it would a Million dollars to bring to code. SO the buildings rot.

They just gave notice to a former motel/now extended stay. The new owner #1 wasn't paying his bills but #2 the city gave notice because codes weren't up to snuff. Example. Basic electric can handle normal motel traffic but can't handle every room having a small fridge, microwave, hotplates, etc. Fire exits not kept clear or equipment kept in maintenance. Occupancy overload, etc. It's sad. Salvation Army has stepped in to help relocate families.

[sweetana3]

Our city and some of its townships are working on trying to close some run down motels and similar establishments. Reason: unacceptable level of constant police and fire calls to these properties. One of Walmart's stores was going to be sued for the same thing. It got even worse when there was a fatal shooting in the parking lot and this was just the last straw. Note: Walmart was really embarrassed and took steps to seriously up their security. Making the newspapers for such activity can really reduce your customers.

Consequence: could be that a large amount of cheap housing will be lost. The poor or suddenly poor have counted on these for some housing.

[Teacher Terry]

Many of our weekly motels downtown have been torn down which has really hurt our homeless population. Also many of these were not that safe and police had to be called a lot. Rents in NV have skyrocketed and even people with jobs can no longer afford rent. It is a huge problem. In place of the motels they are building expensive apartments, condo, retail, etc. People from CA are moving in because it is too costly for the average Nevadan. While downtown looks much nicer I really feel for people that can't afford the rents and the homeless.

[jp1]

99 percent invisible had an interesting podcast on one approach to this issue. Apparently 40 years ago LA decided on a "Containment" plan for skid row downtown, basically locking it into a roughly 50 block area. It was interesting to hear how it happened and how it played out over the ensuing years up to now, and how it is under threat as the land is considered just too valuable.

https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-containment-plan/

[SteveinMN]

I really do not understand why say the old buildings downtown have to have so much done to them to upgrade to today's standards so the homeless can rent rooms. A room with a bath on each floor seems like a far better option then the street. One old building in town I read is 3 floors of little rooms as during the 1900 era that was all travelers needed to sleep at night. Nope it would a Million dollars to bring to code. SO the buildings rot.
Welcome to the tyranny that is the Local Building Code.

LBC is a sludge of zoning and regulations designed to protect everything -- at the expense of people. It also (in many places) is used as a weapon in class warfare.

I'll guess those old buildings do not have three-wire (grounded) electrical service and that the service they have is inadequate for modern it-all-plugs-in life. It is likely there is asbestos in pipe insulation, flooring materials, insulation, etc., and that not remediating that during a remodel would open up developers and perhaps even the municipaility to all kinds of lawsuits, so it has to go. Door openings may be too narrow for wheelchairs and walkers; window openings may be too low to protect curious toddlers. Code now likely requires smoke detectors and carbon-monoxide detectors, some of which likely need to be wired together for the sake of notification in multiple-occupancy housing. There likely needs to be a certain amount of parking space available off-street depending on how many people live in a room or apartment -- and the neighbors aren't going to be happy with it in the form of a surface lot. I'm sure there are rules about how many people (especially unrelated people) can live in a room or apartment. The list goes on.

LBC and zoning are why "granny flats" can't be added to many properties -- but neither can rusty old campers and motorhomes bigger than the houses to which they connect. They're why we can't enlarge sidewalks for humans and human activity -- because if we narrow the street at all, the fire department can't get their biggest piece of equipment down the street along with required clearance around parked vehicles.

Not to say building code and zoning are entirely bad. But there are so many stakeholders, many wielding legal authority over aspects of them, and so many of the rules are geared (intentionally or unintentionally) to keeping out poorer "less-desirable" people and protecting the investments of existing landowners. :(

[Lainey]

Thanks, SteveinMN. Makes sense when you add up the costs like that. I don't think our society wants to see certain safety codes only enforced in buildings for middle-class or rich people.

I did read somewhere that NYC is paying over one billion dollars/year for homeless shelters and for subsidizing housing costs. (have to double-check that number, but it was a staggering amount.)
My question: is government required to provide housing in the most expensive areas just because someone wants to live there? or is it fair to say, you can live in this general area but not necessarily exactly where you want to be? I don't mean ship the homeless off to the most rural unpopulated areas where there are no/few jobs, either, but seems like there should be a happy medium somewhere.

[SteveinMN]

My question: is government required to provide housing in the most expensive areas just because someone wants to live there? or is it fair to say, you can live in this general area but not necessarily exactly where you want to be? I don't mean ship the homeless off to the most rural unpopulated areas where there are no/few jobs, either, but seems like there should be a happy medium somewhere.
No, the government is not required to provide housing; you find what you can where you can afford to live (even if it means spending a lot outside of rent/a mortgage to commute an hour or two or longer per day). That's one of the drivers behind living-wage proposals around the country and a driver of a burgeoning homeless population. Right now in some areas there is no happy medium.

It's a complex situation. Take a look at what's going on in the San Francisco Bay area (https://www.siliconvalley.com/2018/02/14/buying-a-bay-area-home-now-a-struggle-even-for-apple-google-engineers/): so many people employed there cannot afford to live there, even with primo IT salaries from Silicon Valley firms. That is unsustainable, and it can have a chilling long-term effect on employment at those companies (and, therefore, the entire region) because the company can't economically justify the pay that would cover the higher cost of living experienced by the workers they want to attract.

California is a bit of a special case for several reasons, but, for example, the Seattle metropolitan area has displayed some of the same issues over the last 20 years or so. And I'm seeing it to a lesser extent here in Minneapolis/St. Paul, where a lack of rental properties close to The Cities has driven rents up quite a lot while wages have gone up just a little. There are developers interested in building dense housing but they have trouble coming up with projects which don't dwarf the blocks they're intended to inhabit and getting past NIMBYs who think the city should look just as it did a hundred years ago.

And that's where LBC and zoning come in. More people might be interested in living with roommates but there are (arbitrary) limits on how many unrelated people can live in a structure even if it's a mansion. There are minimum lot size restrictions which give neighbors lots of elbow room but also thwart efforts to build on smaller lots -- it's actually illegal to do so. Having to perch 30-40 apartments on top of an excavated parking area (because no one wants to see parked cars even if cars are necessary to get anywhere useful from where one lives) is expensive and raises the rent or condo price from Day One.

On top of that, today's commercial building code encourages (architecturally-uninteresting) slabs of concrete and glass that are squeezed out of a tube as quickly as possible to reduce labor costs. Without big changes, we'll never again see the likes of San Francisco rowhouses or New York City brownstones or their senses of place and human scale because new structures are not designed to a streetscape beyond what the city fathers think will sell and they aren't built to well enough to be economical to modify or maintain.

Something will have to give. What that is, I'm not sure yet. It likely won't happen all at once, either, even if there's another real estate crash, because so many people are tied to the way things were and so very few can appreciate forward vision. :(

[BikingLady]

so yesterday early biking through "that" part of town I passed several of "them". I was well dressed in my biking clothing, slightly cool as it was 28 degrees. The last fellow was lightly dressed, sleeping curled up on picnic table with his big stick. I thought umm if that was a dog I would go get it :(

My ride home I thought how strange this is the shelter issues. IF I took the summer off and hiked the AT or NCT I would hopefully make it to the shelters for cover. Wooded shelters with wood platform bunks. I wondered why if one is doing it for fun that is ok yet if no choice we do not offer these? The not in my back yard would be brought up and YES I would not want shelters in my back yard, but there are many places along my trail "they" sleep anyhow. Never too far from the city. Another note there is a big pavilion one in the city and one at church outside in township on trail. The one in the city usually has sleepers, church in township to far out.

[SteveinMN]

Wooded shelters with wood platform bunks. I wondered why if one is doing it for fun that is ok yet if no choice we do not offer these? The not in my back yard would be brought up and YES I would not want shelters in my back yard, but there are many places along my trail "they" sleep anyhow.
The wood shelter with bunks is designed and expected to be temporary "emergency" shelter. I'm sure if someone were to take up residence in one for a couple of weeks local law enforcement officers would evict them.

Providing any means that makes it more comfortable for people to be homeless generally does not fare well with the locals and appears as a government endorsement of the matter. In a culture that often regards even renters as not "having a stake in the community", individuals with no fixed address are viewed quite suspiciously. It does not help that homelessness/poverty often is believed to be "just" a personal moral failure and that if the poor/homeless only buckled down and got good jobs and worked hard the problem would go away. It ignores a bunch of structural and mental/emotional issues these folks face (as it does the xenophobia and participation in class warfare of the general public), but it makes a great soundbite and enables the believer to move on to their next great thought. :(

[Baldilocks]

I struggle with Homeless shelters. Our town has a really awesome one. And if you build it, they will come. Word spreads about the shelter and people from the city (Chicago and further) come to your little town and before you know it, it changes from Mayberry to Gothem. Do I believe people need to be helped. Yes I do. Do I believe they need to really want help and be willing to change. Yes I do. But when they don't want to play by the rules, they start a camp under the bridge (tent city) and the drinking and drug use that brought them down continues. And the town becomes worse instead of better. It just shows that even the best building doesn't help without a change of heart in it's occupants.

[Teacher Terry]

One thing I don't understand is not moving to a LCOL before you are broke. When we were young we lived in upstate NY but the COL was too high for the wages. After 2 years we moved back to WI while we still had $ to do so. It is the same when people don't sell a house they can't afford and let it be foreclosed on.

[BikingLady]

Badlilocks: I struggle with those thoughts also. Quaint little town next door is opening a shelter for women and bringing them in from Detroit. This is not close, these are not locals. The arguing that is going on about where will they then move onto? No work or transportation in little town. And the men that will follow. All good views with no answers. IDK I really don't.

[SteveinMN]

One thing I don't understand is not moving to a LCOL before you are broke.
I think there are too many non-financial considerations. I know it's popular for lots of retirees to leave Minnesota because it is a high-tax/high-services state. But I don't think I could pry DW out of here with dynamite for all the family and long-time friends who are still here. And, as other posters noted, high services tends to attract people who are on the edge financially who are just one problem (lost job, prolonged sickness, totaled car, etc.) away from a financial condition which precludes moving anywhere else.

[catherine]

My brother teeters on homelessness all the time. Thanks to a brief stint in the service the VA has kept him off the streets (he was given a medical discharge due to his alcoholism 40 years ago, but that's still considered an "honorable" discharge, which drives my husband, who served 2 years in the Marines in the 70s, absolutely crazy).

He had burned ALL of his bridges with the VA, and I researched homeless shelters in his area. There was one run by Catholic Charities which had an enclosed, fenced in lot with tents (it's in Florida, so no cold-weather issues). He was just about to do the intake for that place when he wound up back in the VA for a medical issue (detox), and the day he thought he would be discharged back onto the streets, a VA social worker offered him a 28-day program again. She told him: "Our mission is to get every homeless veteran off the streets."

So as the sister of a person with multiple chronic psychological issues, it is truly a difficult dilemma. When I interviewed Indian psychiatrists for a market research project he said there are are no homeless in India because the families and communities take them in. They consider it their duty. But there's no way I would invite my brother to live with me, and I consider myself a bleeding heart. We did it once, and it was not easy. My DH literally picked him up physically and threw him out after a week, because of his drunken behavior, his arrogance, and his insults (talk about biting that hand that feeds you).

[sweetana3]

Catherine, dont believe that story about India. It is just like the stories they tell of the huge increases in literacy or any other program. https://www.hindustantimes.com/editorials/there-are-1-77-million-homeless-in-india-but-the-state-is-blind-to-them/story-ypUh96FiXSxfZbrts88GnK.html