New Policy Due To Sexual Harassment Mania......

[gimmethesimplelife]

A new policy trickled down to me that I must abide by in my new role and this is a policy that I actually approve of. Effective as of today, should I need to write up or giving a verbal warning to temp staff (I don't have the authority to fire and I'm glad about that) I need to have a witness from the Banquet Staffing Service present. I also am strongly discouraged from having private meetings or discussions with any staff member without a witness going forward.

I completely understand the reasons for this and the realities that drive these types of self preservation, but.....is this what society has sunk to? Color me depressed and unimpressed on this one - but I'm glad for this policy anyway. Of course I have two bags packed at all times to flee for reasons I've went into time and time again, no need to repeat the reasons behind that at this point - though I will say that as a gay man who has never engaged in any sexually harassing behavior with either sex - it seems more and more prudent in the current legal and social climate to have two bags packed at all times and to follow the new work policies I have been directed to follow.

Thoughts anyone? And has anyone out there been given new policies to follow in the workplace recently due to this new social and legal climate? Rob

[Alan]

And has anyone out there been given new policies to follow in the workplace recently due to this new social and legal climate? Rob
What has changed in the legal climate?

[Williamsmith]

Well, I guess this is proof “trickle down” does work.

[ToomuchStuff]

Alan +1
Williamsmith, that could be a sexually harassing comment.>8)

gimme, several years back there was a trial locally, because a woman filed a sexual harassment charge against three guys, who laughed at a dirty joke, in the workplace. The fourth employee, wasn't charged or had anything done to him and was the one who told the joke. He was her boyfriend. I remember discussing this with one of my lawyer friends, as the judge made the comment that it is sexual harassment if they don't like you, flirting if they do.
Just because you THINK your not harassing someone, doesn't mean they won't see it that way. Hope none of your witnesses are ones you have written up, who have a grudge with you.

[flowerseverywhere]

Why do you think this is a bad thing? Companies obviously want to avoid lawsuits not only from sexual harassment but other forms of harassment. You want to be protected.
Act professionally, treat each employee with respect and fairness as much as you can, and follow policies of the company. When you are in charge your employees are not your friends, although you can act friendly towards them and them to you. Simple.

[gimmethesimplelife]

What terrifies me (the verb terrify is not a strong enough word to convey my fear regarding this topic) is that :

A). I most certainly believe there are women coming forward with claims of legitimate sexual harassment that I believe should be punished to the full extent of the law, vs.

B). There are more than just a few random scattered instances of claims of sexual harassment/abuse brought forward being proven as fraudulent or false.

And then there is a recent quote online of some feminist stating that if a few innocent men pay though this recent mania, this particular feminist has no problem with it. Chilling and seriously makes me question the validity of citizenship in any English speaking country - though to be fair, things are worse for men (in this one regard) in Canada, Australia, and Great Britain than they are in the US and I've even say to be even yet more fair, things are worst for men regarding this issue in Spain and India. (In India a woman can call the police with a claim of sexual abuse/harassment with no proof ever required and not only the man but the MAN'S FAMILY MEMBERS go to jail. Once again, no proof required).

As I see it, it is certainly not wrong for cases of sexual harassment/abuse to be prosecuted and taken seriously......only problem is these days there is no filter for any woman with a grudge against a man for whatever reason. In the United States a woman is free to ruin a man's life if she pleases with a simple phone call and a simple lie to the police. No proof necessary for a permanent arrest record and the resulting income/reputational/career/social network loss. And in cases where men have been discovered to be innocent of any such claim/claims, the women in question often is not punished. Unacceptable in my book. I'm OK with being a second class citizen based on the virtue of my being born male, but this coupled with a lack of socialized medicine for all? It's just too much to bear.

What is good about this though? If anyone is interested, do some googling and you can find that more and more (though it's not a tsunami quite yet) men of Western countries are perma parking it overseas - Southeast Asia being quite popular - to get out of countries where the deck is so evilly stacked against men with the extra insult of the high cost of living. Don't be surprised if in the future, more men that women would consider marriage material bail due to terror of ambiguity of the laws and the realization that for men, guilty as accused until proven innocent is the law of the land.

Though it's not the same reason I agitate against America, it certainly is a valid reason to bail not only on America but on the English speaking world in general, and I support 100% any man fed up and willing to flee to relative safety and out of countries where men are auto-treated this way.

As to the new rules at my workplace, this is only about this company trying to protect itself against any liability......and this is going to spread, too, as not only are men terrified now, but so are corporations - the laws are too ambiguous and corporations naturally are seeking to avoid cash outflows via legal settlements/increased insurance premiums.

It's horrible that society has come to this but the silver lining - more and more men will be questioning if remaining in a country where their freedom is at risk via a telephone call from a member of the opposite sex with an ax to grind is really in their best interest, and what's in it for them for accepting this risk? More will leave - and not just the US but Canada, Britain, and Australia, too. Matter of fact, there is a bit of a man drought in Australia as many Australian men have left due to these issues already.

Funky world we live in. I advise two backs packed at all times and a valid passport and a running plan, once again at all times. This level of risk is just not acceptable, especially just for being born male. And ladies, I really don't have anything against you - and I don't believe all your claims are bogus, either. I don't auto-disbelieve you - what I am saying is what puts men at risk is the lack of a filter of how to separate genuine from false claims, and the fact that these days proof does not seem to be required before life altering damage/consequences enter an accused man's life. It's just too much to accept and tolerate - even if socialized medicine were part of the package, which in the US as we all know, human life is not worth socialized medicine. Just far too much to expect a thinking male to accept.

But on the other hand? Call me schizo here - I fully support the upcoming women's marches around the US and I've said more than once, I don't auto-disbelieve claims of sexual harassment/abuse. Rob

[iris lilies]

What terrifies me (the verb terrify is not a strong enough word to convey my fear regarding this topic) is that :

A). I most certainly believe there are women coming forward with claims of legitimate sexual harassment that I believe should be punished to the full extent of the law, vs.

B). There are more than just a few random scattered instances of claims of sexual harassment/abuse brought forward being proven as fraudulent or false.

And then there is a recent quote online of some feminist stating that if a few innocent men pay though this recent mania, this particular feminist has no problem with it. Chilling and seriously makes me question the validity of citizenship in any English speaking country - though to be fair, things are worse for men (in this one regard) in Canada, Australia, and Great Britain than they are in the US and I've even say to be even yet more fair, things are worst for men regarding this issue in Spain and India. (In India a woman can call the police with a claim of sexual abuse/harassment with no proof ever required and not only the man but the MAN'S FAMILY MEMBERS go to jail. Once again, no proof required).

As I see it, it is certainly not wrong for cases of sexual harassment/abuse to be prosecuted and taken seriously......only problem is these days there is no filter for any woman with a grudge against a man for whatever reason. In the United States a woman is free to ruin a man's life if she pleases with a simple phone call and a simple lie to the police. No proof necessary for a permanent arrest record and the resulting income/reputational/career/social network loss. And in cases where men have been discovered to be innocent of any such claim/claims, the women in question often is not punished. Unacceptable in my book. I'm OK with being a second class citizen based on the virtue of my being born male, but this coupled with a lack of socialized medicine for all? It's just too much to bear.

What is good about this though? If anyone is interested, do some googling and you can find that more and more (though it's not a tsunami quite yet) men of Western countries are perma parking it overseas - Southeast Asia being quite popular - to get out of countries where the deck is so evilly stacked against men with the extra insult of the high cost of living. Don't be surprised if in the future, more men that women would consider marriage material bail due to terror of ambiguity of the laws and the realization that for men, guilty as accused until proven innocent is the law of the land.

Though it's not the same reason I agitate against America, it certainly is a valid reason to bail not only on America but on the English speaking world in general, and I support 100% any man fed up and willing to flee to relative safety and out of countries where men are auto-treated this way.

As to the new rules at my workplace, this is only about this company trying to protect itself against any liability......and this is going to spread, too, as not only are men terrified now, but so are corporations - the laws are too ambiguous and corporations naturally are seeking to avoid cash outflows via legal settlements/increased insurance premiums.

It's horrible that society has come to this but the silver lining - more and more men will be questioning if remaining in a country where their freedom is at risk via a telephone call from a member of the opposite sex with an ax to grind is really in their best interest, and what's in it for them for accepting this risk? More will leave - and not just the US but Canada, Britain, and Australia, too. Matter of fact, there is a bit of a man drought in Australia as many Australian men have left due to these issues already.

Funky world we live in. I advise two backs packed at all times and a valid passport and a running plan, once again at all times. This level of risk is just not acceptable, especially just for being born male. And ladies, I really don't have anything against you - and I don't believe all your claims are bogus, either. I don't auto-disbelieve you - what I am saying is what puts men at risk is the lack of a filter of how to separate genuine from false claims, and the fact that these days proof does not seem to be required before life altering damage/consequences enter an accused man's life. It's just too much to accept and tolerate - even if socialized medicine were part of the package, which in the US as we all know, human life is not worth socialized medicine. Just far too much to expect a thinking male to accept.

But on the other hand? Call me schizo here - I fully support the upcoming women's marches around the US and I've said more than once, I don't auto-disbelieve claims of sexual harassment/abuse. Rob

This is quite a lot of illogical, unsubstantiated blather, but by all means, go forth on your white male privilege junket and enjoy the scenery in false victimland.

[Teacher Terry]

There have always been sick woman that claim men have raped them when it is false. Nothing new here. Unfortunately, some men have spent decades in prison for a rape they did not commit. Most of these men are black not white. Fortunately, DNA testing has helped innocent people get out of prison. That being said many woman are raped and their rapists go unpunished. You want a perfect world and that exists nowhere. My DIL is from Poland which is a beautiful country with free healthcare. Guess what her life is better here. The opportunities are better, their standard of living is higher, etc. Many people can't just pack 2 bags and leave. WE own property, have jobs, families, friends and things we value about this country.

[gimmethesimplelife]

This is quite a lot of illogical, unsubstantiated blather, but by all means, go forth on your white male privilege junket and enjoy the scenery in false victimland.IL....all I will say is that there are more than just a few isolated cases of false allegations/claims against men....and women have not been punished when it's discovered in such cases that they were lying. And certainly not all women are lying....I get that. The problem is that there is no filter to protect men from false claims/allegations under the current climate of no proof necessary. Realistically, this increases the risks inherent in holding US Citizenship if you were born male, though to be fair this issue is taking place in other countries and interestingly enough, in the English speaking world, the United States is the least worst offender in this regard - Canada and Britain and Australia and New Zealand (all countries which I have sang the praises of in the past, btw) are yet worse in this regard.

And a simple googling and a little online research, should you have the interest, will yield numerous stories of men leaving the English speaking world due to the risk of being accused with no proof necessary. As I've already stated, this is not my long term issue with the US - but it is certainly understandable and valid as this issue does increase the personal risk of holding US Citizenship. Not pleasant, no, but very much real and very much unacceptable. Watch more men bail over time - with the media not picking up this story and with many women not understanding the reasons for these men bailing.

On a side note, it's a very interesting time to be a gay man with all of this going on......seeing the very building block of society crumbling (meaning some basic level of trust between men and women). It's not something that I wanted to have happen, but......I'm content to sit down with my S/O and a bag of popcorn and a glass of horchata and watch the crumbling ensue. Rob

[lmerullo]

I agree with the policy re: witness, but don't think it's new. Perhaps new to your org, but something I've been adhering to for many years as my role in HR would require. We always had a witness whenever there was a meeting / warning / write up all the way to firing. Did not matter the sex of any of the parties.

[iris lilies]

There have always been sick woman that claim men have raped them when it is false. Nothing new here. Unfortunately, some men have spent decades in prison for a rape they did not commit. Most of these men are black not white. Fortunately, DNA testing has helped innocent people get out of prison. That being said many woman are raped and their rapists go unpunished. You want a perfect world and that exists nowhere. My DIL is from Poland which is a beautiful country with free healthcare. Guess what her life is better here. The opportunities are better, their standard of living is higher, etc. Many people can't just pack 2 bags and leave. WE own property, have jobs, families, friends and things we value about this country.
Rob himself hasnt left with his two bags, let us not forget that.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob himself hasnt left with his two bags, let us not forget that.That day will come, IL, and when it does, I'll be sure to PM you before I post here.....not out of snark but because I genuinely believe you will be happy for me. We are thinking of Queretaro, Mexico, or perhaps the Phillipines (very easy to live there as with a US passport you can keep renewing your tourist visa on and on and on every month for three years, at which point you have to leave the country for 24 hours and then can start all over again renewing very month for three years), and at reasonable renewal fees - at least at the moment,anyway. Rob

[bae]

Mexico and the Philippines are both bastions of civil liberties and human rights. Should be great places for MGTOW-types to settle.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Mexico and the Philippines are both bastions of civil liberties and human rights. Should be great places for MGTOW-types to settle.I'm not exactly MGTOW, bae......being gay I don't quite fit the demographic, especially since my relations with women are obviously not going to be of the same nature as a straight man's IYKWIM?

That said, I find it absolutely enraging that a man can be arrested based on a phone call from a woman with an ax to grind.......and have his life ruined with no proof necessary. I realize this will NEVER happen, OK? In my world, this risk is worth both a $1 million payout to any man willing to leave the US and help with the legal paperwork/formalities required to start over in another country. This risk is truly that unacceptable and intense - I see it as even more of a risk and even more insulting to human dignity that the lack of socialized medicine in the United States and/or the lack of any real check and balance over the powers of police. This one is even worse to me, and what is good about this (if anything) is that it's successful men that are the most vulnerable....just the kind of men of whom other countries would tend to be open to accepting for permanent immigration. I guess every dark cloud does have a silver lining.........Rob

PS.....came back to add bae, exactly how does America (or any other English speaking country for that matter, I wish to be fair here) come across as a "bastion of civil liberties and human rights" as you put it - given that a man can be arrested on the mere word of a woman to the police, with no proof necessary and a permanent arrest record as a result, even if said man is eventually cleared? Only to find that the accusing woman suffers no consequence at all? Please explain how under these conditions America is "a bastion of civil liberties and human rights." I'm all ears and eagerly await your reply. Rob

[razz]

I agree with the policy re: witness, but don't think it's new. Perhaps new to your org, but something I've been adhering to for many years as my role in HR would require. We always had a witness whenever there was a meeting / warning / write up all the way to firing. Did not matter the sex of any of the parties.

Agree that this has been the routine for some time. I had one employer who was behaving foolishly. i asked for a meeting to discuss the situation. He carried in a brief case which was most unusual for him and laid it on the table between us. Being that he was fascinated with the latest technology, I was certain that there was a tape recording our conversation. He never advised me that there was a tape playing. I was so calm and professional in my responses to his questions regarding my concerns, that he abruptly stopped the meeting and adjusted his behaviour in the days following. A witness would have helped maybe but the tape was a help as well.

[Ultralight]

Rob:

Here are my suggestions for the only two bags you will ever need.

REI Ruckpack 40 and REI Stuff Travel Daypack.

You will love them!

[Ultralight]

Dude, the USA affords us a crap ton of civil liberties. And I intend to help keep it that way! I am a card-carrying/donating member of the ACLU -- and you should be too!

[iris lilies]

Dude, the USA affords us a crap ton of civil liberties. And I intend to help keep it that way! I am a card-carrying/donating member of the ACLU -- and you should be too!
But not enough civil liberties to hold terror at bay in the 80056.

And what is wrong with you, anyway. You should be quaking in your boots at the idea that some female can flippantly acuse you of the worst and you are dragged into jail, held against your will, money gone, life ruined.

Run. Run while you can with your two bags.

[Ultralight]

And what is wrong with you, anyway. You should be quaking in your boots at the idea that some female can flippantly acuse you of the worst and you are dragged into jail, held against your will, money gone, life ruined.

I suppose this could happen...

[gimmethesimplelife]

But not enough civil liberties to hold terror at bay in the 80056.

And what is wrong with you, anyway. You should be quaking in your boots at the idea that some female can flippantly acuse you of the worst and you are dragged into jail, held against your will, money gone, life ruined.

Run. Run while you can with your two bags.It's happening every day all over America, IL. I will grant you that some men that find themselves in this position deserve it - certainly not all claims are false and certainly there are less than angelic men out there - my Father, for example.

OTOH, men are also finding themselves in this position that are totally innocent due to the lack of proof necessary after making such a claim against a man. There really seems to be no way to filter out bogus claims from genuine ones, does there? Under these conditions, men are at risk. Plain and simple, and I am categorically unable to deny this and look away.

Other than being ready to run at the drop of a hat, what other options do men truly have under these conditions? (assuming of course a given man in this situation is a victim of a false claim/allegation - once again, I understand that not all claims/allegations are bogus). Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

I suppose this could happen...It is happening, and to those who are innocent of any wrongdoing, also. Society does not seem to care about this,however. I find myself unable to forgive society for this - that it's acceptable for innocent men to have their lives ruined based on a false claim/allegation with no proof of such required for consequences to be doled out. Under these conditions, even as a gay man, I am not truly free and the Constitution really means nothing. At least society has clarified that one for me, I guess I owe society a Thank You (no real snark intended) for making this much clear. Rob

[Yppej]

If all workplaces had surveillance cameras then we would know the truth of any allegations. If there were rumors about someone like Lauer for years, management could have done that and seen for themselves.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob:

Here are my suggestions for the only two bags you will ever need.

REI Ruckpack 40 and REI Stuff Travel Daypack.

You will love them!UL - I'll google these and look into your recommendations here, Thanks! Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

If all workplaces had surveillance cameras then we would know the truth of any allegations. If there were rumors about someone like Lauer for years, management could have done that and seen for themselves.Agreed, Yppej. I don't overall care for this level of surveillance but society is such that now such is a good idea. Rob

[iris lilies]

It is happening, and to those who are innocent of any wrongdoing, also. Society does not seem to care about this,however. I find myself unable to forgive society for this - that it's acceptable for innocent men to have their lives ruined based on a false claim/allegation with no proof of such required for consequences to be doled out. Under these conditions, even as a gay man, I am not truly free and the Constitution really means nothing. At least society has clarified that one for me, I guess I owe society a Thank You (no real snark intended) for making this much clear. Rob
This schtick is tiresome, you do go on and on.

While it is always too bad and even maddening when innocents are caught up in
the witch-hunt du jour as is this current ME TOO campaign, the bottom line is that Women Are The Victims more often than not in the sexual harrassment game. Not men, not even gay men, not folks from low socio -economic classes, not your usual victim cadre. No, it is women. Too bad you cant recognize that and are going off on a weird tangent.

Your hyperbole is astonishing as in “I am not truly free” and “the Constitution means nothing.”
I bet many thousands of women have felt that way with true (not made up) cause over the actions of their male partners and acquantences.

[Teacher Terry]

Rob, your thinking has really become black and white. You are spending your time worrying about stuff that is unlikely to happen. Your life seems to be on the upswing between getting married, your promotion, etc. Allow yourself to enjoy it. Sure there is social injustice and it concerns me as well as cruelty to animals, etc. But there are many wonderful things happening too. I choose to focus on the good things and use my volunteer work to make things better. Only worry about what is in your circle of influence.

[gimmethesimplelife]

This schtick is tiresome, you do go on and on.

While it is always too bad and even maddening when innocents are caught up in
the witch-hunt du jour as is this current ME TOO campaign, the bottom line is that Women Are The Victims more often than not in the sexual harrassment game. Not men, not even gay men, not folks from low socio -economic classes, not your usual victim cadre. No, it is women. Too bad you cant recognize that and are going off on a weird tangent.IL,have I not repeatedly stated that I don't believe all claims/allegations brought forth by women are bogus? Please look back over my prior posts if you would - I believe I have made this stance clear.

Once again, my main issue here is that innocent men are suffering as there is no burden of proof required for allegations/claims against men these days - at least not for claims of sexual harassment/sexual abuse. Until such a day that there is some way to filter out legit claims from false ones, watch more and more men walk away from women and fatherhood and soul crushing long-houred corporate torture......it's already happening now. I don't know how earning men's fear and distrust long haul is going to help women or society but.....this is what it is. Rob

[iris lilies]

IL,have I not repeatedly stated that I don't believe all claims/allegations brought forth by women are bogus? Please look back over my prior posts if you would - I believe I have made this stance clear.

Once again, my main issue here is that innocent men are suffering as there is no burden of proof required for allegations/claims against men these days - at least not for claims of sexual harassment/sexual abuse. Until such a day that there is some way to filter out legit claims from false ones, watch more and more men walk away from women and fatherhood and soul crushing long-houred corporate torture......it's already happening now. I don't know how earning men's fear and distrust long haul is going to help women or society but.....this is what it is. Rob

i dont know what you mean by “no burdon of proof.”

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob, your thinking has really become black and white. You are spending your time worrying about stuff that is unlikely to happen. Your life seems to be on the upswing between getting married, your promotion, etc. Allow yourself to enjoy it. Sure there is social injustice and it concerns me as well as cruelty to animals, etc. But there are many wonderful things happening too. I choose to focus on the good things and use my volunteer work to make things better. Only worry about what is in your circle of influence.Hi TT. I would agree on this one my thinking is black and white - I don't see how it could not be, given the givens. Though I am not a likely victim of a false claim/allegation (the gay card can come in handy every now and then LOL) the fact that innocent men are having their lives ruined......if I don't do at least something about this, am I not as guilty as society is for allowing such to happen, and also as guilty as those making false claims/allegations are? At least to some extent for turning and looking the other way?

Sometimes I wonder if I wasn't born in a hospital but rather at some kind of protest or rally or march in the 1960's.........but the birth certificate does state at a hospital. Rob

[Teacher Terry]

Rob, I think you are a good person with a good heart but worrying to much about things you can't control is bad for your health.

[iris lilies]

The gay card got Randy in trouble. He is a man who thinks there were too many female hormones aroind his workplace:

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/stray-rescue-founder-randy-grim-sued-for-sex-discrimination/article_8e79e110-4117-592f-9681-b1f9b37ab731.html

Since I dont know if anyone can access this wothout registering, here is an excerpt:


ST. LOUIS • Stray Rescue, the nonprofit known for saving stray dogs throughout the region, has been sued by its former executive director on allegations of sex discrimination.
The four-count lawsuit, filed on Friday in St. Louis Circuit Court, also alleges claims of hostile work environment, retaliation, and breach of contract.
Stephanie Huth, who served as Stray Rescue’s executive director from 2014 to 2015, says she was discriminated against by the organization’s founder, Randy Grim. The lawsuit claims Grim made “offensive sexual remarks” in front of Huth while lobbing expletives and insults.
The suit alleges Grim said Stray Rescue employs too many women and that there are “too many hormones” at Stray Rescue...

[gimmethesimplelife]

i dont know what you mean by “no burdon of proof.”Simple. Suppose we were neighbors, just suppose. You could call the police with a lie about me and I would be arrested....and would have a permanent arrest record dogging me throughout my life, even if your claim were found to be bogus. Proof not required. Not acceptable......not citizenship that truly works for roughly 1/2 of America's citizens when you get right down to it. Also in family court, all a woman has to do is make a phony claim of domestic violence, and BAM! No proof necessary, custody is now hers as is child support and if the man makes enough, alimony. And no proof is required - is this citizenship you would be proud of were you male, given these givens? Rob

PS In the above example with our being neighbors and you making a bogus claim about me - when your claim were found to be bogus, you would face no penalty WHATSOEVER whereas I would be stuck with a bogus arrest record for life. Really citizenship to be proud of, is it not? What is good about all of this, however, and I do see some long term good here - more men are pushing back now. Not to a critical mass necessary to make changes, but more and more men are waking up to these realities and walking away.....it's a start towards equal social justice for both men AND women, at least. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob, I think you are a good person with a good heart but worrying to much about things you can't control is bad for your health.I don't disagree with your assessment.....Injustice has never sat well with me from a very young age - starting at about 8 when I started getting this concept - but I do carry the weight of injustice too long and too far and I'm sure that's part of the reason I'm on blood pressure pills. What I'm trying to say is that I agree that you have a point here. Rob

[iris lilies]

Simple. Suppose we were neighbors, just suppose. You could call the police with a lie about me and I would be arrested....and would have a permanent arrest record dogging me throughout my life, even if your claim were found to be bogus. Proof not required. Not acceptable......not citizenship that truly works for roughly 1/2 of America's citizens when you get right down to it. Also in family court, all a woman has to do is make a phony claim of domestic violence, and BAM! No proof necessary, custody is now hers as is child support and if the man makes enough, alimony. And no proof is required - is this citizenship you would be proud of were you male, given these givens? Rob

PS In the above example with our being neighbors and you making a bogus claim about me - when your claim were found to be bogus, you would face no penalty WHATSOEVER whereas I would be stuck with a bogus arrest record for life. Really citizenship to be proud of, is it not? What is good about all of this, however, and I do see some long term good here - more men are pushing back now. Not to a critical mass necessary to make changes, but more and more men are waking up to these realities and walking away.....it's a start towards equal social justice for both men AND women, at least. Rob

It isnt true that no proof whatsoever. That isnt how it works.

And you have exactly the same right to bring bogus claims against me.

Why are you such a special [victum] snowflake?

[gimmethesimplelife]

The gay card got Randy in trouble. He is a man who thinks there were too many female hormones aroind his workplace:

http://www.stltoday.com/news/local/crime-and-courts/stray-rescue-founder-randy-grim-sued-for-sex-discrimination/article_8e79e110-4117-592f-9681-b1f9b37ab731.html

Since I dont know if anyone can access this wothout registering, here is an excerpt:


ST. LOUIS • Stray Rescue, the nonprofit known for saving stray dogs throughout the region, has been sued by its former executive director on allegations of sex discrimination.
The four-count lawsuit, filed on Friday in St. Louis Circuit Court, also alleges claims of hostile work environment, retaliation, and breach of contract.
Stephanie Huth, who served as Stray Rescue’s executive director from 2014 to 2015, says she was discriminated against by the organization’s founder, Randy Grim. The lawsuit claims Grim made “offensive sexual remarks” in front of Huth while lobbing expletives and insults.
The suit alleges Grim said Stray Rescue employs too many women and that there are “too many hormones” at Stray Rescue...
To which I say - yes, let the lady have her day in court, by all means. But is there any proof of such statements and such conduct? If there is no proof and it's he said/she said, do we ruin the man's life "just because?" And if this lady is found to have made false claims/allegations, can not her punishment at least equal what the man's would have if her claims were proven to be genuine? (Remembering of course that men almost by definition serve longer sentences than men do for equal crimes - so the lady in question, if it's proven that she did indeed lie - should face the men's length of sentence and not the woman's - otherwise how could anyone say that justice was truly served?) (Once again, this applies only in the case of the lady's story being proven to be false). Rob

[Ultralight]

Rob:

I think going MGTOW is an hyperbolic response to the sexual politics of the era.

With that said, I would not try to stop someone from going MGTOW.

I know a MGTOW personally. He is not mean-spirited or anything. He just feels like women complicate his life too much -- obligations, families, kids, possible divorces, costs of various types, and so on.
He has remained single and says: "I just like my simple life, it is super simple."

So the dude just does the things he likes to do on his own -- plays drums, long distance running, fantasy football, lots of video games, goes out drinking with his buddies, etc. Nothing wrong with his perspective or his choices.

[bae]

What a crock of MRA/MGTOW nonsense!

[Ultralight]

What a crock of MRA/MGTOW nonsense!

Which crock?

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob:

I think going MGTOW is an hyperbolic response to the sexual politics of the era.

With that said, I would not try to stop someone from going MGTOW.

I know a MGTOW personally. He is not mean-spirited or anything. He just feels like women complicate his life too much -- obligations, families, kids, possible divorces, costs of various types, and so on.
He has remained single and says: "I just like my simple life, it is super simple."

So the dude just does the things he likes to do on his own -- plays drums, long distance running, fantasy football, lots of video games, goes out drinking with his buddies, etc. Nothing wrong with his perspective or his choices.And I agree with you 100% with you here. I like the way your friend has handled this, and this is just the kind of walking away I am talking of being done by men these days. Your friend, from what you said, is not taking an activist stance or agitating against current conditions/laws but just walked away.........more and more men are doing this. I don't know that the end result of this is going to be, but Japan is a much more extreme example of this dynamic in action - and it's not looking good for people my age (51) as nowhere near enough children are being born to support health care and pensions for the elderly.

My other huge question in regards to this topic is this - why, why, why does society actually seem to expect no pushback/consequences such as male non-interest as a direct result of these risks? It's as if society expects men to roll over and play victim. Utterly amazing, it really is. Whatever, I guess it is what it is. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

What a crock of MRA/MGTOW nonsense!Being aware of the risk of a ruined life due to a false claim/allegation is not a crock, as you say, but rather an interest in both quality of life and of self preservation. That said, I very much disagree with your comment, though as always I support your right to make it. Rob

[bae]

Which crock?

Rob’s crock, you and I seem to have posted at the same moment.

[Ultralight]

And I agree with you 100% with you here. I like the way your friend has handled this, and this is just the kind of walking away I am talking of being done by men these days. Your friend, from what you said, is not taking an activist stance or agitating against current conditions/laws but just walked away.........more and more men are doing this. I don't know that the end result of this is going to be, but Japan is a much more extreme example of this dynamic in action - and it's not looking good for people my age (51) as nowhere near enough children are being born to support health care and pensions for the elderly.

My other huge question in regards to this topic is this - why, why, why does society actually seem to expect no pushback/consequences such as male non-interest as a direct result of these risks? It's as if society expects men to roll over and play victim. Utterly amazing, it really is. Whatever, I guess it is what it is. Rob

This guy I know is not a misogynist though. He just does not want the complications of romantic involvement with women. I have read MGTOW manifestos. A lot of it is mean-spirited.

[bae]

Being aware of the risk of a ruined life due to a false claim/allegation is not a crock, as you say, but rather an interest in both quality of life and of self preservation.

Risk? Do you have data on the percentage of men in the USA who have their lives ruined by the processes you allege operate in the fashion you describe?

I mean, can 99% of the men in the USA expect to have their lives ruined, or 1 in a million, or 1 in 10 million or ...?

[gimmethesimplelife]

This guy I know is not a misogynist though. He just does not want the complications of romantic involvement with women. I have read MGTOW manifestos. A lot of it is mean-spirited.I'm not a misogynist (sp?), either. I'm just afraid and I don't buy that I'm evil just because I was born male. One of my best friends is a woman I have known since my college days at NAU years ago and she actually (mostly) agrees with me but then she's known a man whose life was ruined for no real reason so she gets it to some degree. And I don't believe all women act this way - the problem is that some do, and this is enough to ruin unfortunate men's lives in the current legal and social climate. Speaking up about this is not an act of misogyny - at least in a country where equal rights mean something. I'm sure this could be debated for hours if equal rights indeed are in effect in the United States - my stance on this is already clear I believe. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

This guy I know is not a misogynist though. He just does not want the complications of romantic involvement with women. I have read MGTOW manifestos. A lot of it is mean-spirited.To be fair......I have run across some men's rights activists that seem to hate women. Many of these have been burned bad by women in their lives and screwed over in divorce courts and I can understand some of their distrust and dislike but I would also agree that there are better ways to channel this to giving in to hate. Not all MGTOWs are like this, however, just as not all women would make a false claim/allegation to begin with. Unfortunately, some women would.....and the consequence is that some men are going to hate due to this risk or in the case of a victim, due to actual experience. I don't know why this is such a shocker to society, I really don't. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Ok.....I've done some thinking and I'm going to fess up to something that presents me in an unflattering light (something I have no problem with for the record). I remember when all the allegations from men were brought to light regarding Kevin Spacey's alleged conduct......cringe, cringe, cringe......I believed the men without question. I'm going to look over this at some length as it honestly concerns me that I gave the male accusers of Kevin Spacey a free pass but I'm not giving this pass to women in general........this doesn't sit right with me and I will look this over.

Taking off for carne asada at a neighbor's tonight.....was off today and also tonight. Rob

[JaneV2.0]

You're aware, I'm sure, that the VAST majority of sexual assaults (including rape) go unreported. False accusations are rare, and allegations with no corroborating evidence should be dismissed, IMO. Police rarely--if ever--go around arresting men over random unsubstantiated complaints

I have some sympathy with the French women who have come out against over-reacting to minor insults; it just cheapens the real issues involved here.

[ApatheticNoMore]

So some men choose not to be involved with women, there is also a strain of feminist that choose not to be involved with men (uh sometimes BECAUSE they can be dangerous), some choose lesbian relationships, some choose none. Society oversells romantic relationships if that's the point, they aren't everyone's be all and end all.

But yea this thread is a total rant especially as there doesn't seem any evidence that one is any more likely to be falsely accused of sexual crimes in a court of law than say any other crime. So yes it's always bad to be falsely accused of a crime, but that doesn't mean it's that common. Be fair, be above board is the best advice. I suspect even the false accusations at the workplace may be underhanded and dishonest, but are probably getting back for things for which there is no legal recourse (like workplace bullying) by pretending it's sexual harassment instead.

[flowerseverywhere]

Risk? Do you have data on the percentage of men in the USA who have their lives ruined by the processes you allege operate in the fashion you describe?

I mean, can 99% of the men in the USA expect to have their lives ruined, or 1 in a million, or 1 in 10 million or ...?

i actually asked half a dozen friends, my kids and their spouses and my siblings. None of us could recall ever knowing about a false rape accusation with anyone we knew or knew of personally.

[Tybee]

Risk? Do you have data on the percentage of men in the USA who have their lives ruined by the processes you allege operate in the fashion you describe?

I mean, can 99% of the men in the USA expect to have their lives ruined, or 1 in a million, or 1 in 10 million or ...?


I actually googled this, and found this at Buzzfeed:


But using statistics from the FBI and Department of Justice, it's estimated that on an annual basis, the odds of the average straight man (the target group overwhelmingly concerned with this) in the U.S. being accused of rape are 2.7 million to 1.

Apparently odds are much more likely as a male that you will get sexually assaulted yourself than that you will be falsely accused of sexual assault.

[gimmethesimplelife]

i actually asked half a dozen friends, my kids and their spouses and my siblings. None of us could recall ever knowing about a false rape accusation with anyone we knew or knew of personally.I know of two men this has happened to. Interestingly enough, one of them is gay and when I say gay I mean over the rainbow in your face gay. For this man to sexual harass a woman? Sorry, can't see it happening. At any rate, he's a good looking young man and when he was fired on the mere word of a female co-worker, never once really allowed to tell his side, it was a blessing for him as he found a better paying job as a bartender in a Phoenix gay bar. So in this one case the sexual harassement allegation - thankfully no police were involved to ruin his life with a bogus arrest and a lifetime arrest record for no reason - actually worked for one man,believe it or not. Trust me when I say these stories rarely turn out with a nice ending like this one did.

Interesting further note for what's it's worth. I've talked to this man about whether this experience changed anything for him going forward and he says he's just short of rude to the women that enter this bar on his shift, and he claims he will never dress up in drag again for Halloween. The latter is kind of funny though lol.......Rob

[flowerseverywhere]

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/01/22/metoo-and-most-unreported-crime-in-america.html

Rob, I thought you would be interested in this Fox News article. Titled “the most underreported crime in America.” the fear of being shamed, not believed or blamed keeps many women silent victims.