Don't know what to do, where to turn [Archive]

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enota

2-5-18, 6:34pm

When I met my Dh, 20 years ago he was just getting past a rather nasty divorce and was quite bitter about it. Apparently, he had never wanted kids but his ex-wife "oopsed" him in to two little ones and he never welcomed, nor adjusted to life as a dad. That, coupled with his wife's controlling nature pretty much put a fork in the marriage. 
 
Like I said, when I met him he was very bitter. He tends to be a ranter and would go on an on about the various and sundry details about his unfortunate experience. I was "in love" and put up with the whole ball of wax thinking, (hoping) it would get better over time as he healed. 
 
After a lengthy courtship we got married and for a while things weren't bad, really. Oh, he is the kind of guy who is never happy with anything. Ever. Under any circumstances. But I was the kind of person who was happy enough for both of us. Being positive and upbeat is my strong point. Everything was pretty good for a while, maybe 12 years. 
 
Then a series of events occurred that changed the dynamic considerably. First of all my mother passed away. My mom was the one that I would run to when I got stressed out or needed a hug or some kind of positive influence. My mom was the one who built me up and made me feel like I could do anything. She had so much confidence and faith in me and always remarked (as mothers will) how smart and capable I was. When she died, I lost the only positive thing in my life and it hurt. 
 
Also at this time I went into business with my husband (which was a total disaster, but that is another post). During this time I was bombarded on a daily basis with his horrible, debilitating negativity. I cannot express strongly enough how negatively his demeanor affected my life, my outlook and my well being. It was hell. Pure hell. Fortunately, the business failed and I was free from that prison. 
 
I got a job out in the real world and for a time, things improved. Of course, I worked 75 hours a week in order to be away from him as much as possible because his negativing just exhausted me. This was actually kind of a benefit because I became known as a hard worker and someone who was always available to fill in as needed. 
 
Now, it is 20 years later and I am getting to the point where I can no longer stand to even be in the same room with him. He is the quintessential narcissist and I, effectively do not exist except to be a sounding board for his endless problems and drama. To give you a brief example of this, please let me illustrate. 
 
I was working two jobs which required me to be leave the house at 7 am and I would not return until 11 pm. It was an exhausting schedule. I have to drive about 27 miles to our rural home from work, and there were a few times when I was really, really tired and it was hard for me to stay awake. I talked to him about quitting the second job, but of course he had no interest in the conversation. I said to him.... "last night I almost did not make it home. One of these nights, I won't make it home, because I am so tired". To which he replied.... "Well, you know, I'm tired too I get up and go to work and have to deal with idiots all day and do the work of four people, I don't like my job at all and I wish I could quit". 
 
I, essentially told him that I was going to kill myself in a car wreck because I was so tired and all he could talk about was how tired he was and how he wished he could quit also. 
 
When we are at the table eating dinner. I will talk about "things" and he will not respond or enter into any conversation with me. Instead he will begin talking about the guys from work, or his job, or what he thinks about this or that. (He is an EXPERT on everything). If, perchance I DO say something of semi-interest to him, he will IMMEDIATELY CONTRADICT ME and CORRECT ME ON ANYTHING i SAY. Here is another example. 
 
"I think we should put some gravel on the driveway". (HIM) "It's not gravel, it's chat. and there is more than enough there now. It looks like there isn't any because we have had a lot of rain and it has washed dirt over it, but there is just as much there as there has always been and we don't need any more". 
 
"You know it would be nice to have a Sunday off" (HIM) Well, Sunday isn't the best day to have off because a lot of places are closed on Sunday. You know we live in a STUPID area where STUPID F***ing Jesus people make the f***ing rules, and so they close everything on Sunday so they can go to church. It would be much better if you had Saturday off so you could clean the house while I work in the yard". 
 
His rants are even better. He will talk for THREE DAYS about exactly the same thing. If he says something to me that he thinks sound garner a response he will continue to say the same thing over and over until I respond to him. "I put the dirty pan in the sink" (no response) "If you look in the sink, there, you will see that I put the dirty pot in the sink" (no response) "If you want the pan, you're going to have to wash it because I put it in the sink because it was dirty". 
 
The ONLY time he talks about anything is if it is negative. One of my favorite stories illustrates this perfectly. 
 
Many years he put in a small orchard. We live in the country and there is lots and lots of wildlife. One year the pear trees developed a disease called "Fire Blight" and there were no pears that year. The next year lo and behold there was a bumper crop of pears. I said to him. "Wow! that's a great crop of pears this year". To which he replied..." Yeah, but you know the raccoons will find them and there won't be any left on the tree". 
 
It's getting to the point where I can't stand it any more. The thing is, he is a good man, really and truly. He loves our pets and is super good to them. He cooks dinner some nights and cleans up the bathroom on occasion. ("Oh honey, the bathroom looks great" (HIM) "Well, yeah, it was getting so disgusting I couldn't stand looking at it any more" (Not true, but that's how he takes a compliment). 
 
We have a lot of property together and frankly, I don't want to start my life over. But I simply cannot deal with this any longer. I don't like having to work 75 hours just to be away from him. And I dread every second that I know he will be coming home from work and I will have to listen to him drone on and on and on about what he thinks for hours before I can finally go to bed. 
 
Any advice out there? Please feel free to ask questions. Thank you!

Yppej

2-5-18, 6:50pm

Have you tried counseling?

Chicken lady

2-5-18, 7:11pm

Why don’t you want to start your life over? What is so good about this one?

how old are you/your dh?

enota

2-5-18, 7:14pm

Have you tried counseling?

I have mentioned it.

He thinks he knows more than any counselor, of course. And also, counselors are a bunch of frustrated women libber man haters who don't know what they are talking about in his opinion.

I might go for myself, but I am not sure what good that would do.

Yppej

2-5-18, 7:51pm

Go for yourself then to get support and the courage to leave. Or try a support group for people going through divorce. If he won't try counseling he doesn't care about the marriage. Long shot, but his ex-wife might provide you with some emotional support also. Maybe she is not as he has painted her.

herbgeek

2-5-18, 7:56pm

CathyA

2-5-18, 8:25pm

I'm so sorry. Leave him. You will be so much happier. He's not going to change and you have to believe that you deserve better.

Zoe Girl

2-5-18, 8:46pm

Has he been evaluated for depression? Sometimes this shows up in men as anger since they may not have the same emotional range. And he could just be a jerk, but if he is willing a checkup with a mental health professional may at least tell him that this cannot continue.

catherine

2-5-18, 9:00pm

I'm so sorry. Leave him. You will be so much happier. He's not going to change and you have to believe that you deserve better.

+1

At least try to find a temporary space you can live in by yourself. That will give you clarity about your situation. Check Craigslist or AirBnB.

enota

2-5-18, 9:30pm

Why don’t you want to start your life over? What is so good about this one?

how old are you/your dh?

He is 58 and I am 62 (a very young 62)

It seems so daunting to start over. There are pets, property, etc. It's exhausting just to even think about.

enota

2-5-18, 9:38pm

There are also other things you could do to be out of the house besides work, like concerts, or getting together with friends, or a museum, or classes. Sounds like you might want some balance in your life, and something that adds to your enjoyment instead of just tiring you out.

My husband is on the negative side but not anywhere the level you are dealing with. When I've had enough, I say "enough negativity, let's talk about something else" and if that doesn't work I go into another room and do something different. Not saying that will work for you, but maybe you could try it as an experiment. If you've been putting up with this for 20 years, he may have no idea how he sounds.

Yes, I do some of these things. He gets very resentful if I spend time with other people because my free time is so limited. He is of the opinion that I should be spending it with him. But I do sometimes treat myself to a fun day at the movies or a museum. Of course, he is very critical of any friends that I have so I try not to talk about them if I can help it.

dado potato

2-6-18, 12:24am

enota

2-6-18, 1:20am

I agree with Zoe Girl... when I read enota's post I wondered if she and hub had been evaluated for depression.

There is a Depression Fallout discussion group, which was begun by the late Anne Sheffield, author of Depression Fallout: The Impact of Depression on Couples and What You Can Do to Preserve the Bond

Actually baby boomers are increasingly choosing the option of "gray divorce" rather than preserving the bond. ...especially those who had previous marriages that ended in divorce.

I would not minimize the financial and self-esteem issues that can arise from a gray divorce. Heading into retirement, the assets and incomes which supported one household would have to s-t-r-e-t-c-h to support two households.

There is a database (you have to pay a membership to get into it) of people who are looking to buddy-up on housing... either as a room-mate/companion or as a landlord. Typically these folks are 50 to 70 years young... many have gone through a gray divorce to arrive at their present need. http://goldengirlsnetwork.com

May I suggest an affirmation?
You are worthy to live a good life in a relationship that is fulfilling. Take license to enjoy creating intimacy, connection and companionship that feels good to you.

Thank you for the input and the affirmation. It is really difficult to translate the complexity of this situation. I'm sure that I have bouts of depression from time to time. I deal with it and eventually it passes. I strive every day to do things that will make me happy and try to keep my spirits up. I am dead-set against any kind of anti-depressant meds so pursuing that is moot in my mind.

I'm really hoping that we can get to a place where he lives his life and I live mine with as little interaction as possible. That would be the ideal solution and least traumatic for the pets involved. To be honest, I really don't identify well with people my own age and find them tedious and boring. I am nowhere near slowing down and have a LOT of things I want to achieve in my life. I'd really love to fall in with a group in their mid 30s to hang out and have fun with. I'm very interested in Cosplay and hoping that being more involved with that will help me meet some people and make friends. I think if I can develop a full and meaningful life that it will make a huge difference. At least that is what I am hoping for.

Molly

2-6-18, 7:39am

I will be blunt. Leave. He will never change. I made the mistake of staying with someone I couldn't stand for way too long. I am leaving now.

razz

2-6-18, 8:29am

Enota, as has been mentioned, can you find a space or time just to catch your breath and evaluate the options. It is very difficult to do the evaluation when spinning in the situation.

Float On

2-6-18, 10:16am

Your first responsibility is you and your health.
My husband is a bit negative naturally and I've drawn the line about how much I'll listen to before I say "enough" and remove myself from the room.
I have an uncle that is high and mighty and negative. My aunt once left a tape recorder recording his entire day of rants, raves, comments. In a counseling session she finally got him to go to she started to play it. He only listened about 5 minutes and started ranting again. She filed divorce papers that same day.

SteveinMN

2-6-18, 11:40am

I agree with the others that a little space (even if it's a couple of days playing hooky from work) will help you gain some perspective.

I think if I can develop a full and meaningful life that it will make a huge difference.
I am not a fan of remaining in abusive relationships of any kind. What you describe here, in my non-psychologist-trained view, is (at least borderline) emotional abuse. It may be borne by depression (or codependency or other emotional issues) or it may be the result of years of viewing glasses half-empty. But it seems to exist here.

I know some may have religious reasons or reasons of economic or physical dependency to continue such a relationship; those reasons may apply to you. But, absent those, and absent effort by both parties to reach a more equitable relationship, I think Ann Landers (or Dear Abby) put it best: "Are you better off with him [her] or without him [her]?"

(My experience in this area; feel free to skip)
My ex and I married in our late 20s. We did not have a good marriage. My parents had a great marriage; her mother, not so much (first husband was an alcoholic; second [her father] was emotionally remote). Her brothers [first marriage] had been through several marriages between them before we even met.

Ex and I had some good times and some common interests; we were both busy with our careers; we were in a religious environment that strongly encouraged being (and staying) paired; and neither one of us was abusing substances or gambling away our retirement or beating each other up. I think both of us knew deep down our marriage could have been better. We just could not get there by ourselves but previous bad experiences with therapy led ex to refuse marriage counseling. I had consigned myself to that "place where [s]he lives [her] life and I live mine with as little interaction as possible". There were no kids and no pets but there were religious and economic considerations to divorcing. It could have been worse.

In my early 40s a friendship of mine with a single co-worker became an emotional affair. It should not have happened (for lots of reasons) but it did. I was struck with the realization that, even without any physical component, this relationship was much healthier than my marriage. I also was struck with the realization that, in my early 40s, I still likely had many years left on Earth and it probably was too early to just "give up". Ex and I needed external help. (Long story) it took my threatening to just leave the relationship to get ex to counseling. Counseling did not go well. But at least I know I tried. Postscript: (another long story) co-worker and I never seriously explored a romantic relationship.

Divorce was a wrenching experience that challenged pretty much everything I thought I knew about myself. It cost dearly financially and emotionally and I lost several "friends" (and some would say my faith) as a result. But my second wife and I married at 50 and have been very happy together for almost eight years now and both of us love the lives we live now. I half-joke that if my first marriage had been as good as this one I would not have wanted a second marriage. DW (correctly, I think) comments that we both needed our first marriages to make this one work.

enota, only you can decide how to prioritize what you value in life. If financial stability holds a higher value than the "full and meaningful life" you beiieve you can build alone, you have made some choices. If the vow of "till death do you part" supercedes the levels of emotional distress this relationship brings you, you have made some choices.

By all means, do what you can to improve your marriage. But if your marriage cannot be the relationship you want/need it to be, you have a long time left on Earth to live with what it is. Not that you can't choose differently later. But you may lose your ability to choose at any time. Regret is a powerful thing.

CathyA

2-6-18, 12:10pm

Enota......I'm afraid I may have been a bit coarse with my comment about "just leave him". I think some of my own frustrations with my relationship came out too strong. I, too, feel unfulfilled, but to start all over again at my age.......well, it would do me in.
I try to think in terms of my having a relationship with the world that doesn't go through anyone else....including our husbands. Thinking that, makes me realize that I have to look elsewhere for certain needs to be met, and I have to be motivated to figure out how to do that.
So I agree with many of the others that you can build a life fairly separate from your husband, and get some of your needs met elsewhere and find a bit of happiness and fulfillment too.

I'm a pretty negative person. I think it comes from depression and a feeling of hopelessness that I've had pretty much my whole life. So if you can convince your husband to get some counseling, that would be a good start for him. Also, he should have a full medical work-up, in case there's other medical issues going on (thyroid, blood sugar, etc.). I know you refuse to consider anti-depressants. I usually do too......but in your husband's case, it could make a world of difference for him. I think you are situationally depressed, because of him. So if he could get his mood lifted, yours would automatically get lifted. But.....I know it might be too hard to get him to do anything about anything.

So.......try to find happiness in other ways and through other people, while not having to give up your home or your pets, etc. Sit down and think about all the things you want to do that make you happy. Get back in touch with yourself and what gives you some happiness. Sometimes it's not easy, and we have to force ourselves to find time for those things......but it's worth it.
((((hugs))))

bae

2-6-18, 12:24pm

My partner of 40 years and I had some troubles, related to and intertwined with clinical depression, and we found *real* couples counseling quite helpful. We are fortunate enough to live an easy walk from the Gottmans - I would recommend their approach, especially if one partner is suspicious of traditional-style marriage counseling and is data-and-results-oriented.

https://www.gottman.com

Teacher Terry

2-6-18, 1:45pm

You could easily live 30 more years and is this the way you want to spend it? I doubt he is going to live in the same house and just let you live an independent life. I left a emotionally abusive 22 year marriage in my 40's and it was hard. I went to therapy to get the strength to do it. Pets are not a valid reason to stay in a marriage. Hugs:))

ToomuchStuff

2-6-18, 4:20pm

After reading the post, through it looking like it being typed on a teletype machine eak, I got tired. Your too tired to think about divorce/separation, because your already exhausted.
Is there a friend you could stay with a bit, closer to work? This could give you a respite if you decide you want to stay married, or a place to decide you don't, as well as a "staying here, so I don't wreck on the way home, as I started to fall asleep behind the wheel".

KayLR

2-6-18, 5:05pm

Enota, life is just too short to waste in this impossible, regretful relationship. If you cannot bring yourself to leave yet, at least see someone (counselor) to help you cope and give you some perspective.

Simplemind

2-6-18, 11:30pm

You entered into a relationship with an abusive man. The signs were there before you walked down the aisle. How a man treats his ex and his children is the roadmap to your future. You accepted a man who had no love for his own children. Why did you not think you deserved better then? How much more does he have to do before you stand up for yourself? No matter how many hours you stay away from him he is still controlling you.
Please find a counselor for yourself. Life is too short to be miserable. Been there done that....

pinkytoe

2-7-18, 12:18pm

Sometimes staying in a miserable situation (marriage, job, relationshp) is what we do as dealing with an unknown future is too scary. I stumbled on an inspiring book that is all about facing what feel like insurmountable changes or transitions in one's life. It is called Breaking Open by Elizabeth Lesser.

flowerseverywhere

2-7-18, 4:31pm

Unless you are going to work until you drop dead think of this. You know that feeling you get when you drive up to your house and you know you are going to have to deal,with him? Imagine having that feeling from the moment you wake in the morning.
At the very least get an MD checkup and talk to a professional if he won’t go to marriage counseling

Chicken lady

2-8-18, 8:59am

So, I have been thinking of you.

it seems like whatever misery might be involved in untangling yourself from this man would be shorter in duration than the misery of remaining with him.

How many pets? What kind? What ages? Is the property dear to your heart? Is money that you need to retire tied up in it?

you say you feel young, that your social group is in their 30’s. That’s great! It should make you hopeful, not resigned.

5 years ago my 30 something heartdaughter walked away from an abusive husband with her car, her clothes, her son, and a bunch of books. She didn’t press charges. She didn’t ask for money or property. She couldn’t face it. He agreed to a no fault with shared custody and let her have some dishes and one of the cats.

she is about to finish her master’s degree. She owns her own business. She and her partner own a house.

you would have at least the resources from two jobs and your friends.

sit down and write out a vision of your life ten years from now, if you go vs. if you stay. Do both a “best case” and a “worst case” of each. Then look them over - what are you willing to accept? Risk? Hope for? Only you can decide.

catherine

2-8-18, 9:13am

It's getting to the point where I can't stand it any more. The thing is, he is a good man, really and truly. He loves our pets and is super good to them. He cooks dinner some nights and cleans up the bathroom on occasion.

Can you see the contradiction here? I'm not a psychotherapist, but I've been around long enough to know that sometimes you grab onto hopefully to things that betray the big picture. So, you work yourself to the bone and try to find activities to keep you from being in the same room with him, but you'll take it because he cleans the bathroom once in a while and treats the pets probably better than he treats you?

One time I was dating a guy that put me second all the time. When my mother caught me crying over him, she told me, "Damn it, Catherine, you are settling for crumbs when you deserve the whole cake!"

Are you settling for crumbs? Again, if you could see a therapist or get away for a few weeks, you'd be stepping out in the right direction. As you said, the complexity of the situation is bound to be too overwhelming for you to handle by yourself, while you are still living there.

flowerseverywhere

2-8-18, 12:37pm

One more thing about pets. Leaving them would be heart wrenching. But animal shelter are full of beautiful, friendly, lonely pets who are begging for kind people to give them a home. There is no shortage anywhere in this country. From puppies and kittens to old dogs and cats who want some love and kindness take your pick.

flowerseverywhere

2-8-18, 12:48pm

One more thing. Just a little research can explain the traits of abusers
https://www.learning-mind.com/emotional-abusers-traits/. There are resources to help, even online.

you know, when the MeToo movement and gymnast abuse allegations started, even other women accused the victims of lying. But some of these abusers are so manipulative and clever, and their victims afraid, or made to feel like they asked for or deserved it, Abuse often goes unreported. In the Olympic scandal, many of the young women did actually reported it and were shooed away. It can be extremely difficult to leave an emotional or physical abuse situation no matter how awful, so don’t beat yourself up. He does enough of that.

Yppej

2-8-18, 8:08pm

Hitler loved his dog Blondi and was good to him. But call me a speciest if you want, people matter more than other animals. You matter more.

Suzanne

2-9-18, 2:00am

This is not a good man. 20 years of misery are 20 years too many. Gather documentary evidence of income and property ownership (copies of tax returns, bank statements, title deeds) and start visualizing a future where you work 40 hours a week, aren’t tired all the time, and are happy to come home.