$160 per month due to new tax law.

[dmc]

My wife has a pension and her new withholding has changed $160 per month in her favor. I know it’s just crumbs for some, but it will cover our lawn care. So yea!

[Chicken lady]

Dmc, sometimes I wonder about your life and if you truly understand how it compares to the general population of the world or even the US.

for me “lawn care” is gas for the mower and tractor every few weeks for about 5 months.

$160 is more than all my car gas for a month, and it’s almost my heart daughter’s monthly food budget. She has not seen a change in her paycheck.

[Gardnr]

Dmc, sometimes I wonder about your life and if you truly understand how it compares to the general population of the world or even the US.

wow. This feels rude. People are frugal, save for the future, retire when they are ready and pay for things important to them. I applaud DMC for success.

Kind of like, I saved $ for 17 years and bought my Mercedes C300. "oh nice fancy car". Um, no I spent less than you did on your last 3 since I bought my 17yo.

DMC, we too are quite surprised by a drop in taxes/increased take home. I was sure the tax law changes would not help the average American wageearner.

[catherine]

I don't think Chicken lady is being rude, but in my neck of the woods a lot of people have "lawn care" in their budget just as they would "house cleaner" or even "gas & electric." In my suburbs, I would say that it's about half-and-half--people who mow their own lawns vs get someone to do it.

We used to get lawn care, because a) we don't have a riding lawn mower, and it was taking DH too long to push the darn thing around every week, especially after our indentured servants (kids) had left home. b) With us working it was one less thing we had to attend to. c) the lawn looked great in a short amount of time. it took 3 men 20 minutes to have our entire lawn mown and weed-wacked.

But we stopped a few years ago. The main reason was money. I really felt it was a luxury we couldn't afford. Plus my DH could use the exercise. It seemed the ONLY time he moved was when pushing the lawn mower.

In addition, the landscapers/workers mowed down my blueberry bushes one year, and they completely messed up my grape hyacinth bulbs. Plus they didn't seem to get it that I wanted to keep the clippings ON the grass, and I couldn't trust that that they were keeping the blade at 3" height. In short, I feel they were fast but very careless and clueless about environmentally-friendly mowing practices. AND we had to pay them for their ignorance.

So DH got a Fitbit and a tune up on the mower.

dmc is not that different from my neighbors at all. And we don't have private planes. We're just normal bedroom community suburban folk.

Congrats on the new-found money, dmc!

[LDAHL]

My wife has a pension and her new withholding has changed $160 per month in her favor. I know it’s just crumbs for some, but it will cover our lawn care. So yea!

Worked out about the same for me. With apologies to the Chicken Ladies of the world, I will probably just invest the extra $2K/year rather than spend it on plutocratic excess.

[Rogar]

I've always thought that yard work is good exercise regardless of how affordable it is. And it's not unpleasant. I have an electric mower with a rechargeable battery and it's a pleasure not having to deal with gas and fumes. There are a lot of older people in my neighborhood and most of them use a lawn service.

An additional $160 a month is no small deal in my budget, but I don't know off hand what I would do with it.

[iris lilies]

We are poor people who do our own mowing with a push mower.

According to the tax calculators we will realize a tax break of $300 per month
which seems high to me, so we will see how that shakes out.

[dmc]

When we first moved down here I did take care of the lawn, but it needs to be mowed at least once a week year round. So it was a problem when we were gone. And I’d rather get my exercise on the golf coarse.

and I’m sure the guys taking care of my lawn appreciate the fact that there are enough of us that will pay them to earn a living. And my wife says they do a better job than I did.

Its the cleaning lady that makes out, she gets $75 in cash for about 3 hours of work. Wait, no it’s the guy that does the windows, he gets $200 and he is done in around 4, but he only comes once a month or so.

My wife and I saved quite a bit back when we were working, and we both put in a lot of hours. So now we can afford to have others take care of some things we would rather not do. It gives us more time to do things we enjoy.

I shouldn’t even mention that she also got a cost of living bump of around $100. But I stopped tracking our expenses a few years ago and we never really had a budget. I look at her pension as a nice annuity that means we should never have to worry about basic living expenses. And our investments should mean we never have to worry about having a nice standard of living.

[dmc]

We are poor people who do our own mowing with a push mower.

According to the tax calculators we will realize a tax break of $300 per month
which seems high to me, so we will see how that shakes out.

i haven’t looked at how it will affect us overall. We just got the notice from her pension provider about the change in withholding. I have just started working on this years taxes, so haven’t got around to looking at next.

[Teacher Terry]

From what I have read the higher your income the more of a tax break you will get. I find that very sad. When I get a pension increase I get 30/month so 100 seems huge to me. No reason not to spend your $ on the things you don't want to do. I do wonder however if wealthy people understand the struggles many experience. I know for certain that the people we elected do not have a clue. Having spent my working life in human services I have seen so much poverty and pain. As we live in the desert we put in good quality astro-turf so we would not waste water. I don't know anyone with lawn service but plenty must have it as I see the trucks driving around.

[pinkytoe]

I think we were the last holdouts in our old hood still pushing a mower and we had almost half an acre. Our neighbors there had everything farmed out - even people to pick up the dog poop every week. I guess if you have the bucks, you can decide how to spend the extra.

[Chicken lady]

I didn’t object to dmc’s lawn care.

i simply stated something I wonder about from time to time when I see dmc’s comments.

and threw out my own lawn care as a single point of contrast.

perhaps dmc is fully aware of how his lifestyle compares to others. Perhaps it compares very favorably to his old lifestyle because he worked very hard to get there. I just don’t know this from the posts I have seen, and so, sometimes I wonder.

my other statements were an attempt to illustrate that $160/month is often NOT crumbs.

his “I know it seems like crumbs to some” is confusing to me, because it seems to imply that either he agrees that it is very little money (which for most of the world it is not), or that it is a significant amount of money to him, which doesn’t seem to fit with some of his other posts.

[Chicken lady]

Also, I did not intend to be rude. I often have communication issues because I am apparently bad at language choices. Depending on how well you know me, I am open, direct, blunt, tactless, or rude - same words, same harmless intent.

[iris lilies]

I didn’t object to dmc’s lawn care.

i simply stated something I wonder about from time to time when I see dmc’s comments.

and threw out my own lawn care as a single point of contrast.

perhaps dmc is fully aware of how his lifestyle compares to others. Perhaps it compares very favorably to his old lifestyle because he worked very hard to get there. I just don’t know this from the posts I have seen, and so, sometimes I wonder.

my other statements were an attempt to illustrate that $160/month is often NOT crumbs.

his “I know it seems like crumbs to some” is confusing to me, because it seems to imply that either he agrees that it is very little money (which for most of the world it is not), or that it is a significant amount of money to him, which doesn’t seem to fit with some of his other posts.


I think dmc doesn't mind if his posts poke folks here, CL. Personally, I find it funny when he gets a predictible rise.

[catherine]

Another great thing about this forum is that all demographics participate and get along (for the most part). We have such a broad continuum across income & means, work experiences, political persuasion and religious orientation. So awesome.

[frugal-one]

My wife has a pension and her new withholding has changed $160 per month in her favor. I know it’s just crumbs for some, but it will cover our lawn care. So yea!

I personally wish the tax incentives were not there and the deficit were less. As you said, $160 is not a lot but if you add that up for so many people ... it is H U G E! What a waste! As noted previously, the bigger your wealth the greater the tax savings. Ridiculous!

[Alan]

I personally wish the tax incentives were not there and the deficit were less. As you said, $160 is not a lot but if you add that up for so many people ... it is H U G E! What a waste!Yes, we should force our government to live within it's means.

[dmc]

I used the term crumbs because that’s what Pelosi called the tax breaks. I realize that we have it good, but I also know that I paid quite a bit in taxes along the way.

There are are many that are much better off than me and there are many with less. And I’ve had much less, but never more.

life is good. And I still see opertunities all around me.

[Tenngal]

be careful, less withholding often means a tax bill at the end of the year........pay now or pay later.........

[JaneV2.0]

Yes, we should force our government to live within it's means.

Not lowering taxes over and over while ratcheting up our defense budget would have gone a long way toward seeing to that.

[LDAHL]

Yes, we should force our government to live within it's means.

It would be nice to see deficits taken seriously by somebody again. The Left never did and the Right seems to have given up.

[JaneV2.0]

It would be nice to see deficits taken seriously by somebody again. The Left never did and the Right seems to have given up.

The Right never did, either--they only pretend to when Democrats are in power. See "the two Santa Claus theory."

[goldensmom]

My husband increased his 401K withholding with the increase he would have brought home given the new tax plan. Lawn care, I have no problem with people paying for someone else to do their lawn care but personally I think I should do my own and when I can't then I need to move. Now, speaking of money, I have spent thousands of dollars on lawn care equipment, tractors (5 - each having a special purpose) mowers, finish mowers, rotary mowers (7 acres including an orchard). Money aside, it's just preference.

[Rogar]

Yes, we should force our government to live within it's means.

I somehow get the feeling in that there is no such thing as a free lunch, or in this case no free lawn service. Maybe a lot of us will benefit as individuals on a short term basis, but a big budget with huge tax cuts when the economy is near full employment spells economic trouble in my book.

[dmc]

I somehow get the feeling in that there is no such thing as a free lunch, or in this case no free lawn service. Maybe a lot of us will benefit as individuals on a short term basis, but a big budget with huge tax cuts when the economy is near full employment spells economic trouble in my book.

As another poster has said many times, just have a couple of bags packed and ready to flee when the time comes.;)

[frugal-one]

As another poster has said many times, just have a couple of bags packed and ready to flee when the time comes.;)

The question is... who will take us then?

[flowerseverywhere]

Yes, we should force our government to live within it's means.

i’m curious What your suggestions are as to how this can be done. They always seem to find a way to raise spending caps, or manipulate the numbers so we don’t really know the truth about how the economy and deficit is going. Or pad their own families and cronies bank accounts. And I mean all political persuasions from the bottom to the top. It seems no lawmakers are immune.

[Alan]

i’m curious What your suggestions are as to how this can be done. They always seem to find a way to raise spending caps, or manipulate the numbers so we don’t really know the truth about how the economy and deficit is going. Or pad their own families and cronies bank accounts. And I mean all political persuasions from the bottom to the top. It seems no lawmakers are immune.I don't know how it can be done, we seem to have entered a phase where anyone championing fiscal responsibility is immediately hailed as some sort of monster. I'm disappointed that the only party with a historical interest in smaller government has seemingly given in to societal pressure to give more and more.

The cost of the Federal Government this past year exceeded $12,000 per citizen and society demands that it increase further while any attempt to relieve the burden on the 50% of the population who actually fund that spending is met with derision. I remember when I was a small boy Nikita Khrushchev said "your own working class will bury you", and I think he was right.

[Williamsmith]

I don't know how it can be done, we seem to have entered a phase where anyone championing fiscal responsibility is immediately hailed as some sort of monster. I'm disappointed that the only party with a historical interest in smaller government has seemingly given in to societal pressure to give more and more.

The cost of the Federal Government this past year exceeded $12,000 per citizen and society demands that it increase further while any attempt to relieve the burden on the 50% of the population who actually fund that spending is met with derision. I remember when I was a small boy Nikita Khrushchev said "your own working class will bury you", and I think he was right.

Would anyone dispute here and now that while it’s nice to have a military machine capable of deploying worldwide and responding to any threats real or imagined......that capability is causing us to ask for a credit card with higher limits every year? And it is making it impossible to take care of our basic needs at home. If your kids ran their household this way, you’d scoff at them when they got in trouble. You can’t eat bullets.

[flowerseverywhere]

Alan and William smith, I agree with both of you wholeheartedly. But how to change the tide. Each administration and their supporters are all up in arms about the amount that was spent by their predecessor. Yet they somehow slide right into the same trap. They say what we want to hear yet we continue to ramp up our troops abroad, spend gazillions of flying presidents and their entourages around, and fund pet projects whether or not it is the best thing to do so people can go home to their constituents and prove they have done something. It’s all of them. The few conservatives who are trying to follow their campaign promises are quickly drowned out and ignored.

[Lainey]

Would anyone dispute here and now that while it’s nice to have a military machine capable of deploying worldwide and responding to any threats real or imagined......that capability is causing us to ask for a credit card with higher limits every year? And it is making it impossible to take care of our basic needs at home. If your kids ran their household this way, you’d scoff at them when they got in trouble. You can’t eat bullets.

+1
It used to be that Social Security funding was the "third rail" of politics, and politicians dare not discuss any changes to it. Now it's become the military. They actually get funded for projects they don't even want because the jobs are spread among so many politicians' districts that it becomes an economic juggernaut that can't seem to be stopped.
Years ago I read the book "Are We Rome?" and the parallels with the Roman Empire (which ultimately collapsed due to its overreach) and the U.S. are more striking every year.

[ApatheticNoMore]

The Right never did, either--they only pretend to when Democrats are in power. See "the two Santa Claus theory."

it could be because deficits ultimately don't matter that much, and they know it, but there is political value in posturing. And it could be that the pensions, the brokers, the investors, the financial markets etc. need a risk free benchmark (aka they need treasuries) maybe even to function as they are presently if the deficits are funded by treasuries and not pure monetization (I don't understand all this entirely, but it seems if we are going to see the whole thing systematically, we do need to think about the other half of the trade). It could also be that both parties are corrupt and serve the oligarchs at the expensive of the present and future welfare of everyone else. Well that is indisputably true so we can never assume their actions are for the long term good (their actions on the environment alone prove that), but it could ALSO be that deficits just don't matter that much after all. Now even so it wouldn't follow that everything they spend money on is a great use of money (a bomber the military doesn't even want etc.).

[gimmethesimplelife]

Dmc, sometimes I wonder about your life and if you truly understand how it compares to the general population of the world or even the US.

for me “lawn care” is gas for the mower and tractor every few weeks for about 5 months.

$160 is more than all my car gas for a month, and it’s almost my heart daughter’s monthly food budget. She has not seen a change in her paycheck.Chiming in from the 85006 on a day off after mucho OT - Chickenlady, I can completely understand your take here. I get it. That said, and don't anybody freak out about what I am about to post - I am coming to see (after being exposed to the concept of "management" firsthand) the following:

There need to be people like dmc who don't understand what it's like on the other side of the tracks so that there can be people like Rob in the 85006.....my zip code is full of folks working "unskilled" (I've always found this word a crock) labor - the kind of people that dmc would hire to do his lawn care. If it weren't for people like dmc (and I have often taken issue with various postings of dmc's, I get it and I am not siding against you here, I'm only posting what has become clear to me lately) being willing to part with money to free up time for whatever or no reason - that would be money that would not make it to the 85006 - or a similar zip near where dmc lives.

So I get in a way that people who think like dmc are necessary in a way for people like me - there's a truly revolutionary thought for someone from the 85006, trust me on this one! Maybe the compromise is to work for those willing to part with cash to free up time and then offshore pretty much everything you can (easy for me to say as I live three hours away from Mexico with it's much cheaper medical and dental and optical and pretty much anything involving labor - great place to have car seats redone and/or have auto work done)........My take is that to do so is indeed working for The Man, but........then taking the money and applying lower social class 85006 wisdom to the money. In the end I have played the game partly on dmc's terms but once the cash is in my hands, it's much more about MY terms.

Had I never been promoted, I doubt I would have ever understood that there needs to be people like dmc for the 85006 and similar areas to function. Rob

[LDAHL]

There need to be people like dmc who don't understand what it's like on the other side of the tracks so that there can be people like Rob in the 85006.....

So when you cross the border to exploit the lower labor costs available there, do you think they may feel the same way about you?

What is it you think dmc doesn't understand?

[catherine]

So when you cross the border to exploit the lower labor costs available there, do you think they may feel the same way about you?

What is it you think dmc doesn't understand?

Maybe he does, but only if he has actually experienced poverty. I don't believe anyone who has never walked in the shoes of the poor/working poor can really understand what it's like and how difficult life can be.

[gimmethesimplelife]

So when you cross the border to exploit the lower labor costs available there, do you think they may feel the same way about you?You have taken my breath away with your post here - literally - as I am at my core a very honest person and I have to admit you have a point here. Jeepers, in Algodones or Mexicali or Nogales I am dmc........to an average struggling Mexican I am dmc. I may not like admitting this but I won't flinch from socioeconomic reality........though to temper my guilt a slight bit, Mexico does have socialized medicine, the only kicker being that you have to work in the formal sector to qualify......people you encounter hustling goods on the street and trying to wash car windows and hustling goods on Mexican buses and the subway in Mexico City......these people don't qualify as they are employed in the informal sector and to be quite honest, are probably paying no taxes on their earnings.

Getting back to the point though......you are correct in what you have posted as far as I am concerned. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Maybe he does, but only if he has actually experienced poverty. I don't believe anyone who has never walked in the shoes of the poor/working poor can really understand what it's like and how difficult life can be.+1,000.....Thank You, Catherine for "getting" this. I could not agree with you more, but I also believe that whether I like it or not, LDAHL has raised a valid point. Rob

[catherine]

+1,000.....Thank You, Catherine for "getting" this.

I've been close enough the edge to know how stressful life can be. I've had to tell my son he couldn't go on a field trip with the other kids because we couldn't afford it. I've had to accept hand-me-downs from neighbors, only to have kids bully my son for wearing them. I've had to ask the owner of the convenience store if I could pay him for milk and bread the following week. I've had my house foreclosed on. I've had my electric turned off so often, my son was able to watch the guy turn it off and learn how to turn it back on with out paying. I've had my phone turned off, just moments before I had to call my husband from the hospital where my daughter was to have an emergency appendectomy, so I had to call a neighbor as ask them to walk to my house to pass along the message to my husband. I've had my debit card declined at the supermarket with the school psychologist in line behind me offering to pick up the charge for me. I've been delinquent on my kids' lunch money. I've had to turn furniture upside down to find change for food.

So, I've had a taste of the ignominy of poverty.

[iris lilies]

I have never been poor but see dailey the sheer instability of life in the behavior of those on the streets and in nearby neighborhoods. The public housing project down the street currently has a mouse infestwtion. Their Alderman has set up a GoFundMe account for that. Right there as an example, filth and disorganization can be a factor in the lives of the poor that uses energy and resources.

I would argue that in the world of victims,Rob has far fewer credentials than he thinks he has, as he is a privelged college educated white man with a mortgage no less. They dont give mortgages to truly poor people. The poor dont even have bank sccounts.

I would also postulate that being poor and single is one level of stress while being poor and having to deny your children stuff is exponentially worse.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I have never been poor but see dailey the sheer instability of life in the behavior of those on the streets and in nearby neighborhoods. The public housing project down the street currently has a mouse infestwtion. Their Alderman has set up a GoFundMe account for that. Right there as an example, filth and disorganization can be a factor in the lives of the poor that uses energy and resources.

I would argue that in the world of victims,Rob has far fewer credentials than he thinks he has, as he is a privelged college educated white man with a mortgage no less. They dont give mortgages to truly poor people. The poor dont even have bank sccounts.

I would also postulate that being poor and single is one level of stress while being poor and having to deny your children stuff is exponentially worse.IL.......you also are not without a point here, gotta give you that and please don't be shocked I am doing such. At the moment, I am not poor based on the amount of my checks.......I am actually borderline middle class and can no longer qualify for government assistance (which is as it should be, given the size of my current checks)...........that said, it takes a lot of time to "unpoor" yourself......certainly I am not raising my standard of living other than for some possible travel. I stash all that I can in the credit union as I know that every dollar you can save is one share of insurance against America - and I will always see it that way, given that human life is not worth socialized medicine in the US.

But lately you are correct, I do have fewer credentials than I used to. About the mortgage - the amount of the loan was around 50K and we qualified to get me on the mortgage at a high interest rate that is still doable due to the smallish amount of the loan. We had to go to a high interest loan as my income in F and B at the time was very unstable, very much unpredictable. About banking.....most but not all 85006 residents bank at a credit union - thankfully some of the big Hispanic oriented credit unions here have made a big push in the 85006 and similar areas to sign up folks for free checking and lower fee accounts overall than banks accounts. So thankfully here there are not as many unbanked as there might be out your way.

I am also very much aware that so the rich can become yet richer, there will be no job security for me whatsoever. It is my responsibility to deny the system a bulk of my earnings and to save everything I can, with a few exceptions such as the annual VNSA booksale that I posted about today. I may be doing better these days but that does not mean that I don't see things as they truly are and that I now trust the system one iota. But I will admit it does feel nice to stash cash away against America - definitely this helps me sleep at night. And it's nice to know that I can now afford to go to Mexico and have a few crowns done that I have been putting off @$175 a crown (see why I flee to Mexico and make such a big deal about it?) Rob

[ToomuchStuff]

IL.......you also are not without a point here, gotta give you that and please don't be shocked I am doing such. At the moment, I am not poor based on the amount of my checks.......I am actually borderline middle class and can no longer qualify for government assistance (which is as it should be, given the size of my current checks)...........that said, it takes a lot of time to "unpoor" yourself......certainly I am not raising my standard of living other than for some possible travel. I stash all that I can in the credit union as I know that every dollar you can save is one share of insurance against America - and I will always see it that way, given that human life is not worth socialized medicine in the US.
Rob
We call that growing up.
The non defecating detective springs to mind here, as what do you think most people in society do, especially once they have hit adulthood/self responsibility. Most are not given golden spoons/trust funds, etc.
We call that saving for a rainy day. Guess what, it is going to rain, and socialized medicine certainly doesn't cover everything, even thought that is your pet peeve. What would happen, if for instance, you because disabled because a building fell on you. If socialized medicine took care of your physical needs, that still leaves other needs.


You are actually beginning to "get things" that others have tried to explain to you in posts over the years, that you either glossed over, or somehow couldn't grasp.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Socialized medicine would sure help for a rainy day though given how much of rainy day funds will end up going to healthcare. Anyway leaving healthcare systems to the side, I don't think maturity consists primarily of having a rainy day fund, in fact I think that's an insufficient answer to the problems of modern life. It may have worked better in the world of circa 1960 or 1970 or something. It is good to have a rainy day fund. But seeing money as one's main asset is really very narrow, it's not really a matured point of view. Money is indispensable and incomplete even as far as survival goes.

There is no set criteria for growing up. There is a strong emotional component. But maybe it's stuff like trying to keep figuring out how the world really functions in ways beyond how one was taught it functions (but can one always use this to their advantage? no not always). And growing up is not always gained by success, that's one path, but it is as much gained by suffering.

* I do wish I was a white male, with a college degree, and a mortgage though, as I am none of those things. Whitish ok, but male nope, college degree nope, mortgage nope. Being poor and single is better than being poor and a single parent for sure. Single parents are absolutely heroic to have to go through that. I can't even imagine the strength and courage that takes! Being poor and married with kids versus being poor and single, it's hard to say, single really means you are completely on your own so it's hard in that noone else but you cares that much if you live or die etc..

[gimmethesimplelife]

As another poster has said many times, just have a couple of bags packed and ready to flee when the time comes.;)Good call if I do say so myself!!! Rob

[iris lilies]

And European travel, and travel to Thailand, is a decided class marker. Not the class rob aspires to. There are all kinds of class aspirations.

just sayin’.

[ToomuchStuff]

I don't know anyone who has said maturity consists primarily of a rainy day fund, but it is definitely a sign. It means you know things happen (medical that ISN'T required or covered, car repairs, repairs to residence or hotel money, etc. if fire, having to hire a lawyer, etc). There is certainly an emotional component (hence one of my "life songs")

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ECUtkv2qV8 and how you deal with the poo that life heaps on you. As for being poor and single being better then being poor and a single parent, well then why do single parents not put their kids up for adoption? (emotions like love come into play against logic/reason, etc)

[gimmethesimplelife]

And European travel, and travel to Thailand, is a decided class marker. Not the class rob aspires to. There are all kinds of class aspirations.

just sayin’.Whoah.....IL......when did I ever say I didn't aspire to anything better in my life? Finally I am making what for me is decent money.......and we only get so many spins around the sun. Of course I want to save every penny I can and the one thing, the one single thing I am willing to spend money on (outside of what I offshore to Mexico) is travel. Call it a class marker if you like but I also have no aspirations to leave the 85006 unless it is to another country. Maybe I am reading you wrong here (?) - and if I am please let me know, I mean this - but I don't see myself as being disrespectful to the Austrian flag (i.e., rising too far above my station in life). So I see it anyway, but your take and your mileage get to vary. Rob

PS....as far as my European travel in 2015 back to the Homeland and to Slovakia and Spain and Portugal, were it not for a friend of my family with some money passing on and kindly leaving both my Mother and I some of his estate, there would have been no such trip. Period. This was just a stroke of luck, nothing more, nothing less. I certainly did not expect to come into any money with this person's passing. As for my time in Morocco - I paid for everything beyond the airport in Lisbon on my own, which is nothing really to be impressed with as the ticket to Marrakech was dirt cheap and once you get to Morocco, you find that it can be dirt cheap if you do it right.....the only costly thing in Morocco was my love of hand woven rugs.....otherwise the whole trip would have clocked in at around US $400 for the week I was there including airfare from Lisbon. (the rugs did add much more to this I will admit and I've finally got the credit card paid off for this).

My point is that I did not per se aspire to European travel. Money miraculously appeared into my life and naturally I had to visit Austria after all these years. It was almost like a requirement to do so if you can understand this (?).

I will however agree with you to some degree that travel to Thailand could be seen as aspirational....on the other hand, clean and safe rooms can be had in Bangkok for USD $20 a night and meals can be had for around USD $1 to USD $1.50. Hardly aspirational other than for the airfare.....now that is a little bit of a bill but on the other hand, premium economy on EVA Airlines from LAX to Taipei and then on to Bangkok costs several hundred dollars less than steerage class on British Airways from Phoenix direct to Heathrow and then on to Vienna. Rob

[rosarugosa]

A bit of a sidetrack here, but Rob, I have to say how much I admire your intellectual honesty. I love how unfailingly conscientious you are in considering all sides of an issue, and to say so forthrightly if someone makes you question a previously held assumption. I've also seen you get quite a bit of flack over the years, sometimes almost at an abusive level, and you've brushed it off your lapels so to speak, and kept trucking on.
You are the gold standard for forum discussions, in my humble opinion. I'm so glad we have you.

[gimmethesimplelife]

A bit of a sidetrack here, but Rob, I have to say how much I admire your intellectual honesty. I love how unfailingly conscientious you are in considering all sides of an issue, and to say so forthrightly if someone makes you question a previously held assumption. I've also seen you get quite a bit of flack over the years, sometimes almost at an abusive level, and you've brushed it off your lapels so to speak, and kept trucking on.
You are the gold standard for forum discussions, in my humble opinion. I'm so glad we have you.Rosarugosa - Thank You. Such kind words - I'm floored, I really am. I don't know what to say other than Thank You. And you are right - this is what I always do in life no matter what I encounter - I just keep trucking on. Sometimes the journey leads to interesting places as I truck on and at the age of 51, I am still learning and there are things I have left to learn. Keeps me young and on my toes........Rob

[ApatheticNoMore]

foreign travel all the time is a kind of very well into the middle class marker - as are super shiny almost new cars! I find those people kind of silly, but if I'm hanging there I'm making really good money so I keep my head down, it's as much the exception as the rule to be on that perch.