View Full Version : burn in hell
Well the day I was expecting came, my son in law (yes he is officially that!) was told by his grandmother that he is going to burn in hell. They are a pretty dramatic family, and religious. In a conversation he questioned something she was saying about Trump, she replied he must be hanging around liberals (yeah that would be our family) and it came up that he is not Christian. His mom and sister were there, I heard his mom just seemed shocked and his sister said as a Christian she couldn't judge his beliefs. He is close to his family, hopefully the entire family won't agree with her.
I know my daughter and SIL have just tried to not make these things an issue, they are both pretty mellow people, but it was bound to happen sooner or later. Grandmother has been providing childcare so they are looking for a new situation. I know my daughter was concerned about her doing all the childcare as grandbaby got older because of her beliefs and how vocal she is. She is vocal about boycotting Target for the bathroom issue for example, and my daughter works there and my SIL's siblings are both gay.
Well the day I was expecting came, my son in law (yes he is officially that!) was told by his grandmother that he is going to burn in hell. They are a pretty dramatic family, and religious. In a conversation he questioned something she was saying about Trump, she replied he must be hanging around liberals (yeah that would be our family) and it came up that he is not Christian. His mom and sister were there, I heard his mom just seemed shocked and his sister said as a Christian she couldn't judge his beliefs. He is close to his family, hopefully the entire family won't agree with her.
I know my daughter and SIL have just tried to not make these things an issue, they are both pretty mellow people, but it was bound to happen sooner or later. Grandmother has been providing childcare so they are looking for a new situation. I know my daughter was concerned about her doing all the childcare as grandbaby got older because of her beliefs and how vocal she is. She is vocal about boycotting Target for the bathroom issue for example, and my daughter works there and my SIL's siblings are both gay.
It's so weird to me when families do this. I wonder if she is getting dementia. It sure sounds like it.
If so, it's a nightmare road for her, poor thing.
Probably best that she not provide any more childcare.
so sad.
catherine
2-27-18, 10:18am
I think your DD/SIL have to look at the big picture and then decide. I agree with Tybee that sometimes as people get older their internal editor rusts, and they wind up saying bizarre things. I remember one time when the family, including MIL, were all at a bar waiting for a table. MIL had had a wee Drambuie. My daughter, who was about 20 at the time, asked "Grandma, you've lived a long life. What words of advice would you give me?" And MIL's wise words? She said to my daughter, "B__, have as MUCH SEX as you can!" She had grown up in post-Victorian England, and I really think it took reading a Harlequin romance novel every week in her late seventies to point out what she might have missed out on.
Believe me, it took a conversation with my daughter to do the best I could to backpedal on that one!
I think you can teach kids that "Grandma loves you and we love her, but we don't agree with x,y,z."
If her rantings are frequent, then maybe you'd want to think about what she's telling the grandkids during the day when she watches them. But I think you have to weigh her whole personality, love for the grandkids, and ability to be a caregiver overall before making a decision based on an isolated comment.
I have a feeling this is NOT dementia. His mom regularly starts arguments on facebook over politics, the family has a changing table at every holiday based on which people are speaking to each other, ya know. Grandma has been saying these things her whole life I think, and there is so much drama. When I first met him it was a lot of work to teach the poor guy that our family does not work like that. It makes sense that the wedding at the courthouse was just our family and they will have a party later. I met them once, but I am nervous since I am sure I give off a super liberal vibe just naturally.
DD/SIL have been thinking about getting different childcare for some time. They also have a standing invitation to move to Florida near his dad and step mom and get free childcare that way. My DD knows that she would be miserable, and they are very conservative Christian so again she would not want grandbaby raised that way.
Well,it sounds like the kids know what they want in the way of childcare. I think they can arrange it suitably, in the context of their beliefs and values, and just keep family out of the childcare business. I don't think it has to be a relationship-breaker, and I would personally ratchet down the drama around the issue, but I don't think they are in any danger of utilizing the free childcare from folks whose beliefs they find repugnant.
So it's great that you have raised kids who can figure these things out!
I am one who believes based on experience that the mental environment is critical in childcare. Hate is poisonous no matter who is uttering it. I would find alternative options for childcare yesterday.
Chicken lady
2-27-18, 10:54am
My brother thinks i’m going to hell. It makes him really sad. We don’t talk about it, but I can see it in his eyes when things related to religion come up. I just keep hoping something will change his mind.
dado potato
2-27-18, 11:02am
It seems to me your son-in-law has a developing problem. I gather that when he is with his grandma the polarizing topics of presidential politics and "culture wars" (restrooms in Target?) come up. Then if he takes the side that grandma does not approve of, grandma scolds him.
I wonder who raises the divisive topics... and what needs are they attempting to gratify when they do? Does grandma raise the topics? If so, perhaps grandma fears the country is going to hell, and she feels she ought to say some things to her daughter's son to save him from the snares that lead to hell. Perhaps this situation would call for him to respond to grandma to express his needs in the interaction. What does he need from her? ... autonomy? ... respect? ...harmony?
He may decide that grandma has trespassed across his boundaries, and that he needs to communicate to grandma (tactfully) that he will not tolerate political or religious indoctrination. "If it's a game, don't play. If it's a hook, don't bite."
On the other hand, was it your son-in-law who raised the topic of President Trump ... or changing social attitudes about gender? Knowing that grandma is vocal about these topics, and it can be humiliating to listen to her expounding, then maybe he needs to modify the topics he brings up around grandma. Can he learn to steer familial conversations away from politics and religion?
I agree with Tybee and razz that there may be a long-term problem with childcare. It sounds like your daughter and SIL have already realized that grandma will model certain undesirable behaviors to their child(ren). I would be glad they are looking for an alternative for childcare.
Thanks, I realize why my DD and SIL spend a lot of holidays with us, there is just too much confusion and drama around holidays and everything. They don't even call him the same first name as everyone else does because that is the same name as someone's ex that they can't stand. I have been wondering when this would come up however, my DD has worked really hard to not bring anything up because she doesn't want to cause issues however there is a point where it matters that she and we have some deeply held values that are different.
I think it is hard enough to see sometimes in my family what they think of me (pity, worried about my mental health, and some judgement), I can't imagine being around someone who thinks I am going to hell on a regular basis. I have had it of course, and some were brave enough to tell me. Generally they were sad about it, I wish I could put their mind at ease but I really can't.
edited to reply to dado, I am very certain it was grandma who brought up the topics, they do that a lot in his family. He has never brought up any of these issues with me or my family even though we do not agree perfectly. I think some of those 'what do you need' conversations and topics are nowhere near to where this family is functioning.
Teacher Terry
2-27-18, 12:43pm
Some families only know how to function with drama. That is very sad. Is the cost of childcare an issue because I know it is super expensive?
Some families only know how to function with drama. That is very sad.
I mentioned this situation to my mom on the phone, we have the opposite issue of trying to have no emotions! I was barely done with my 2 sentences of what happened when my mom interrupted to say 'you just have to ignore it'. Well I think that SIL gets a few minutes of having an emotion after all, and since I have been told this before I feel for him (not by a family member but still it affected me). I felt that very familiar sense of not being okay if I felt anything. My sister has been dealing with severe anxiety the last year and is seeing some correlation to our family issue, but unless she is in crisis she does not want to talk about it. We are just as incapable of those 'what do you need' conversations as the drama family.
I mentioned this situation to my mom on the phone, we have the opposite issue of trying to have no emotions! I was barely done with my 2 sentences of what happened when my mom interrupted to say 'you just have to ignore it'. Well I think that SIL gets a few minutes of having an emotion after all, and since I have been told this before I feel for him (not by a family member but still it affected me). I felt that very familiar sense of not being okay if I felt anything. My sister has been dealing with severe anxiety the last year and is seeing some correlation to our family issue, but unless she is in crisis she does not want to talk about it. We are just as incapable of those 'what do you need' conversations as the drama family.
I don't see this as the same thing in this situation, since it is not your grandmother cursing you to hell, it is your son-in-law's. I understand getting upset on his behalf, but not dwelling on it, or feeling you have to feel for him or rev up support for his liberal views. This seems to be between your sil, your dd, the grandmother, and the baby, as the involved parties, and I don't understand why it involves you and your family, other than to feel supportive of him, if that makes sense.
I don't see this as the same thing in this situation, since it is not your grandmother cursing you to hell, it is your son-in-law's. I understand getting upset on his behalf, but not dwelling on it, or feeling you have to feel for him or rev up support for his liberal views. This seems to be between your sil, your dd, the grandmother, and the baby, as the involved parties, and I don't understand why it involves you and your family, other than to feel supportive of him, if that makes sense.
I agree. Plus "drama" is a subjective term, and each family acts out its drama in unique ways. Some drama is harmful and toxic to be sure, but some families just operate on a different frequency. I think about Italian families or the kinds of family in "My Big Fat Greek Wedding." There are highly dramatic, but non-toxic ways to communicate. I tend to run and hide in the face of that kind of communicating. And being non-emotive can be toxic, too.
I'm sure your DD/SIL will do the right thing. Re the grandmother, I get so frustrated with those kinds of "Christians."
I am also confident they will do the right thing, I just feel bad for him since this is his family and that has got to be hard. But I am not dwelling on it either.
As far as talking with my mom it really wasn't that big of a deal until I noticed how much she reacted into ignoring it, that should have been a total other thread!
As far as whether he is liberal or conservative or just whatever I am not condemning anyone. That is why I feel for him, there are many people who don't condemn just because they disagree and this is his only grandma.
ToomuchStuff
2-28-18, 12:21am
Families and religion are not good mixes. Had a friend who dated a gal, and referred to her kid as the little bastard (religious based). Of course been called similar myself, as my grandfather was due to violence, and his siblings all went different religions from one another. I remember meeting one, walking them to their seats at a relatives wedding, where my grandfather and them talked for the first time in 40 years.
I also remember the fighting between my parents and another relative, when they were all pushing for me to choose between their different faiths. The one I choose was simply due to scouts that were there, and shorter services (both important to kids). Later I saw a sermon preached by one person, only to hear a sermon the very opposite the next week by a guest of the same faith. They almost came to blows in the church.
Then the sex scandals, the preacher that embezzled and convinced the congregation that they should forgive him, etc. etc. etc.
Some people have belief systems that assume some souls will in fact damn themselves, but simple humility should prevent them from presuming to judge who that will be.
And there is also tact, which I think Churchill described as being able to tell someone to go to Hell in such a way that they will look forward to the trip.
I'm sure your DD/SIL will do the right thing. Re the grandmother, I get so frustrated with those kinds of "Christians."
Isn't that just part and parcel? If you say you are "X", and that is in the X Handbook, isn't it kind of a given? I've known people who believe strongly in the Heaven and Hell thing - even if they didn't bring it up, it was clear just from their belief system where they thought I was headed.
Isn't that just part and parcel? If you say you are "X", and that is in the X Handbook, isn't it kind of a given? I've known people who believe strongly in the Heaven and Hell thing - even if they didn't bring it up, it was clear just from their belief system where they thought I was headed.
They can believe in Heaven and Hell, but Jesus Christ said "Judge not, lest ye be judged." And "why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?"
That's what I meant. Christians would be truer to their faith if they looked to their own path to heaven without taking other people's inventory. That's what being a true Christian is. Even Pope Francis has been known to say "Who am I to judge?"
Isn't that just part and parcel? If you say you are "X", and that is in the X Handbook, isn't it kind of a given? I've known people who believe strongly in the Heaven and Hell thing - even if they didn't bring it up, it was clear just from their belief system where they thought I was headed.
If you think their belief system is nonsense, why would you care?
If they say or do nothing to you, why would you care?
If you presume to project certain thoughts or attitudes on them based on your interpretation of their belief system, who is the one with the issue?
It's so weird to me when families do this. I wonder if she is getting dementia. It sure sounds like it.
If so, it's a nightmare road for her, poor thing.
Probably best that she not provide any more childcare.
so sad.
I disagree with your assessment. Many older people are really getting fed up with the state of this country. The traditional values that they hold very dear are being stripped away and they don't like it very much. Most will simply sit there, or complain to their friends over coffee and crochet, not many have the gumption to speak their mind in a hostile environment. Did it ever occur to anyone not to discuss controversial subjects or simply smile and say nothing?
I disagree with your assessment. Many older people are really getting fed up with the state of this country. The traditional values that they hold very dear are being stripped away and they don't like it very much. Most will simply sit there, or complain to their friends over coffee and crochet, not many have the gumption to speak their mind in a hostile environment. Did it ever occur to anyone not to discuss controversial subjects or simply smile and say nothing?
I would agree. From the OP's description it doesn't seem like grandma is suffering dementia. It sounds more likely that she's just a judgmental b**ch. As a gay man who is now 50 I'm lucky that my parents had decided that religion wasn't their thing. I was raised an atheist and after looking at all the harm that religion does I am forever grateful about that. However, my mother was still super conservative socially. She was ok with the idea of gay and lesbian people but not with her unmarried child and their SO sleeping in the same bed in her house. She passed away well before I was able to marry my SO legally. If we could have married she would have been fine with us sleeping together in her home. How silly.
We obviously do not know enough to know if she is "a judgmental bitch" as JP1 says, has dementia, is expressing her bizarre and Unchristian "Christian" beliefs, or is simply a powder-keg sh&t stirrer of a person.
Why not refuse to discuss anything with her, and take her out of the childcare equation, and let it be. You are not going to change her, and people do mean things to each other everyday; just protect the kid against her and avoid her, would be my solution, grandmother or no. Others may want to engage with her and avoid certain subjects. I would just wish her well and try to keep my peace, were I the son-in-law with the problem, or were I Zoe, mother of wife of son-in-law.
I disagree with your assessment. Many older people are really getting fed up with the state of this country. The traditional values that they hold very dear are being stripped away and they don't like it very much. Most will simply sit there, or complain to their friends over coffee and crochet, not many have the gumption to speak their mind in a hostile environment. Did it ever occur to anyone not to discuss controversial subjects or simply smile and say nothing?
Nobody is stripping away these old people’s rights. Their values are their own personal values, and nobody is stripping these away either. They can continue to be racist, homophobic, judaeochristian, anti-abortion, etc, etc. What they’re really upset about is that other people’s values also have societal weight.
I’ve noticed that it’s usually the mean people who raise the controversial subjects - and won’t let it go no matter what deflecting tactics are used.
I disagree strongly with smiling and saying nothing when subjected to verbal assault. That’s simply reinforcing the abuser’s position. It’s validating their behaviour and laying yourself open to repeat episodes, which will scale up as Grandma or other nasty person gains confidence that you will not stand up for yourself.
Nobody is stripping away these old people’s rights. Their values are their own personal values, and nobody is stripping these away either. They can continue to be racist, homophobic, judaeochristian, anti-abortion, etc, etc. What they’re really upset about is that other people’s values also have societal weight.
I’ve noticed that it’s usually the mean people who raise the controversial subjects - and won’t let it go no matter what deflecting tactics are used.
I disagree strongly with smiling and saying nothing when subjected to verbal assault. That’s simply reinforcing the abuser’s position. It’s validating their behaviour and laying yourself open to repeat episodes, which will scale up as Grandma or other nasty person gains confidence that you will not stand up for yourself.
Amen, Suzanne.
Well my daughter and SIL immediately cut ties and are looking for childcare. His family says it is unfair to not let her see the baby, like accepting verbal abuse is the price you pay for not being Christian. His family has a fair amount of that kind of drama and relationship ups and downs.
My mom seems to have mostly ignored it, however she asked about the situation twice and has been confused both times. I am more concerned about her actually when you talk about dementia
I am sure I am "burning in hell" in my aunt's mind who unfriended me on FB over Trump.........of course she goes to the type of church where everyone is burning but them.
This makes me think of Ron Reagan's famous tagline "lifelong atheist, not afraid of burning in hell." My grandfather always said he'd rather go to hell than spend eternity with the overly pious.
Update on this situation: my SIL's mother has continued to say they owe it to grandma to send the baby over. She also said that she does not want grandbaby around any of those Buddhists! So I am openly Buddhist. My daughter felt bad about not saying anything to her, she was really in shock at the moment and didn't want to cause more conflict. As a result she decided to go over what she knows about Buddhism in order to be ready if she feels like defending it. We are having some nice conversations from this about what Buddhism is and is not.
His mom also said a swear word, and when they asked her to not because baby is learning to talk she went off on a rant about how she must hear worse, lots of swear words and of course being around drugs all the time. WTF! Apparently being Christian is the only barrier to swearing around babies and doing drugs. At least she lives in another state so contact is minimal.
Aren't loving supportive families wonderful! Find something positive or even barely likeable about the aggravators, focus on that, protect the child from the drama and carry on with your life. The more emotional discussions about this, the more distress is caused. Detach, accept that others have different views with which you are not in agreement and don't give them power to affect you. Sometimes, I know that is hard to do.
I had an acquaintance who so badly wanted to be friends but she drained me at every contact. I was polite in declining contact but firm. I realized that we simply had very different boundaries. At her recent passing, I felt it necessary to review my thinking but have no regrets at protecting my space and peace of mind.
Don't be manipulated into giving time, thought and energy to someone who drains, abuses or tires you in case you might feel badly later nor let others try to control your right to choose.
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