The Purpose of Education

[LDAHL]

Some of the campuses of my state university system have announced plans to eliminate many of the traditional humanities departments as well as some "Studies" programs in favor of engineering, finance and other more "career-oriented" degrees. I'm not sure how I feel about it. On the one hand, most students lacking an independent source of income will need to ultimately earn a living. On the other, I think there is something to be said for education for its own sake. Although I do think it a bit cruel to encourage most people to pursue doctoral-level humanities studies when the job prospects are so dim.

I keep hearing about the humanities providing highly prized "critical thinking skills", but I couldn't hire a philosopher for an accounting job. I'm not sure that the best poloicy is.

[catherine]

Interesting--I just read this article (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/education/decades-pushing-bachelors-degrees-u-s-needs-tradespeople) yesterday about how tradespeople are in increasing demand. It seems college is out as the default "must-have" for a a financially-secure, successful life.

On the one hand, I'm glad that there are expanding opportunities for those who are not academically inclined.

OTOH, I've always believed that college bestows many intangibles in the critical thinking department. It doesn't matter that you don't necessarily have to know Ovid to run a business, but you learn how to think. In fact, I clearly remember the moment when I realized my own children flipped that switch and started thinking and reasoning differently.

[SteveinMN]

Interesting.

As long as it's possible to get those humanities degrees at other state colleges, I see nothing wrong with colleges and universities tailoring their offerings to outfit graduates with skills they can use.

The job market now is so specialized that there's not much opportunity for career migration starting with that new degree; as LDAHL pointed out, hardly any organization will hire a philosophy major for an accounting position. They may hire a philosophy-degree employee into an accounting position if the skills are there. But most won't do it for someone right out of college.

The other part of it, of course, is being realistic with students and helping them understand that a doctorate in a humanities field may never give them many job prospects or enough of an income to pay back those educational loans. Or that not everyone has to attend college, and that there are plenty of careers which can be satisfying, pay well, and offer longevity, without university degree initials involved. I'm not sure who gets to deliver that shot of reality, though.

[razz]

I cannot imagine any job that will not require some understanding of the humanities unless it is a repetitive job that will eventually be automated. The human ability to think, plan and evaluate is critical everywhere

[catherine]

The other part of it, of course, is being realistic with students and helping them understand that a doctorate in a humanities field may never give them many job prospects or enough of an income to pay back those educational loans. Or that not everyone has to attend college, and that there are plenty of careers which can be satisfying, pay well, and offer longevity, without university degree initials involved. I'm not sure who gets to deliver that shot of reality, though.

My son is a student advisor and adjunct instructor at a community college. He makes less than my other son who serves tables at a restaurant. Bugs the heck out of my educator son. In fact, when I get to age 70, I'll probably get more in Social Security than what my educator son earns working 40 hours a week, still paying off his student loan.

I often work with post-docs on Pharma market research projects, and I probably earn at least what they do. I have a BA. In Theatre/drama criticism.

And it is insane what people have to endure in student loan payback. Maybe this vocational thing portends a seismic cultural shift in expectations about the way in which we give back to our communities. How many lawyers do you need in one town? How many auto mechanics?

[ApatheticNoMore]

. Or that not everyone has to attend college, and that there are plenty of careers which can be satisfying, pay well, and offer longevity, without university degree initials involved. I'm not sure who gets to deliver that shot of reality, though.

only if the job ads for that career NEVER list bachelors degree under the requirements or even pluses (and aren't ever likely to 10-20 years down the road). And I wonder how many jobs that is really (probably some nursing where you don't need it, hairdresser maybe. But a lot of things company PAD requirements at this point). Because if it's the kind of job that may be a skilled trade but still preferences candidates with a degree better to get that.

It seems to me that kids from a purely white collar background thrust into a blue collar world will actually need JUST AS MUCH help adjusting as first generation college students do who have no relatives who ever went to college. But of course unlike them, they won't get it. What could possibly go wrong.

[Williamsmith]

Perhaps I’m jaded. If I could hit Hillary’s reset button...I’d like to try again. This time, I want to make it to 60 without the scars of being a blue collar public servant. That would probably mean immersing myself in creative writing, art and music while living nearly off grid on the mountain of my youth.

One thing I am proud of. I never pressured my kids to choose a career. All I ever insisted was they finish anything they started. That seemed to be enough.

[catherine]

That would probably mean immersing myself in creative writing, art and music while living nearly off grid on the mountain of my youth.


And you can't do it now because... ?

[Williamsmith]

And you can't do it now because... ?

Well dang girl!

Edie Brickell says it better than I could......

I'm not aware of too many things
I know what I know if you know what I mean
Philosophy is the talk on a cereal box
Religion is the smile on a dog

I'm not aware of too many things
I know what I know if you know what I mean
Choke me in the shallow water
Before I get too deep

What I am is what I am
Are you what you are - or what?

I'm not aware of too many things
I know what I know if you know what I mean
Philosophy is a walk on the slippery rocks
Religion is a light in the fog

I'm not aware of too many things
I know what I know if you know what I mean
Choke me in the shallow water
Before I get too deep

What I am is what I am
Are you what you are - or what?
Don't let me get too deep

[rosarugosa]

I've often wished I had pursued carpentry as a vocation. I'm pretty confident I would have rounded out my world view with books.

[razz]

Dear WS, you don't know how long you are going to live despite all kinds of prognoses and such like. Stephen Hawking was given 4 years after the ALS diagnosis in his late 20's, I believe, and just passed away at 76, almost 50 years later.

You have the talent based on your contributions on this site. Go for the creative writing adventure! I dare you!:devil:

[bae]

Is "earning" the important thing?

My daughter is embarked upon a Ph.D. program in such a narrow field of study that the only job she can expect to get is probably in that same department. I just wrote a $200k check to pay off her undergraduate loans. I can't imagine there will ever be an economic payback for her investment.

But, if people like my daughter only focused on $$$, entire realms of human knowledge would just wink out.

[Teacher Terry]

Bae, your daughter will not be saddled with student loans which makes a huge difference. I spent a good part of my career evaluating and helping people decide on their career path. Some went to college, some to technical schools for blue collar jobs, some to apprenticeships and some right to work. Our agency would assist in paying for higher education and had a say in what we paid for according to the local or national job market depending if they were willing to move or not. Maybe you have a gift in art or music-they are great hobbies but not likely to lead to a decent job. Since the intent of the program was to help people with disabilities get back to work it was my job to help people be realistic. My ex had a master's degree in math but gave up professional work when he was making so little that he had a second job as a janitor at night. He became a tool & die maker and made fabulous $. It paid for my 3 colleges degrees, kids etc. Yes humanities are important to be well rounded and great as electives but not likely to lead to a career path.

[bae]

Stephen Hawking was given 4 years after the ALS diagnosis in his late 20's, I believe, and just passed away at 76, almost 50 years later.


I spent a good chunk of today reading his Ph.D. thesis. I think he was 24 when he finished this up, just a couple of years after his initial diagnosis, and about a year after he was supposed to be dead.

https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/handle/1810/251038

It is a *wonderful* paper, I'd never sat down to read it fully through before. His wit and spirit shine through, even during the mathy bits. He avoided (except for Chapter 3) the temptation to simply present a wall-o-math, and sprinkles the explanatory text with humor (well, a lot of it is physics humor) and he takes great pains to introduce and explain the concepts and techniques he will be working with, so much so that I was able to read and appreciate the paper after being out of the physics business for many decades now.

It was a great way to spend the day.

[Williamsmith]

I spent a good chunk of today reading his Ph.D. thesis. I think he was 24 when he finished this up, just a couple of years after his initial diagnosis, and about a year after he was supposed to be dead.

https://www.repository.cam.ac.uk/handle/1810/251038

It is a *wonderful* paper, I'd never sat down to read it fully through before. His wit and spirit shine through, even during the mathy bits. He avoided (except for Chapter 3) the temptation to simply present a wall-o-math, and sprinkles the explanatory text with humor (well, a lot of it is physics humor) and he takes great pains to introduce and explain the concepts and techniques he will be working with, so much so that I was able to read and appreciate the paper after being out of the physics business for many decades now.

It was a great way to spend the day.

Bae, I clicked on the link and read the Abstract. I take your word for it that a wonderful paper follows. I much prefer the shorter version.......”Properties Of expanding Universes....or Big Bang” by Barenaked Ladies


https://youtu.be/CMSYv_Z4SI8

[Williamsmith]

Dear WS, you don't know how long you are going to live despite all kinds of prognoses and such like. Stephen Hawking was given 4 years after the ALS diagnosis in his late 20's, I believe, and just passed away at 76, almost 50 years later.

You have the talent based on your contributions on this site. Go for the creative writing adventure! I dare you!:devil:

Razz, you are too kind. Much tooooooooo kind.

[happystuff]

Definitely a case of semantics, but I like to think I am continuously "learning" even if I'm not getting a formal "education" any longer.

[LDAHL]

Is "earning" the important thing?

My daughter is embarked upon a Ph.D. program in such a narrow field of study that the only job she can expect to get is probably in that same department. I just wrote a $200k check to pay off her undergraduate loans. I can't imagine there will ever be an economic payback for her investment.

But, if people like my daughter only focused on $$$, entire realms of human knowledge would just wink out.

And that's why we should all be grateful for patrons of culture like you and Lorenzo de' Medici.

But, lacking other resources, most people need to focus on more practical matters (hopefully not entirely) out of necessity.

We view education from so many different aspects. We want it to make us better, more thoughtful and interesting people (although we often slip into indoctrination). We want professional credentials. We want status markers. We want to make contacts for business and social purposes. And we try to obtain those things through a university system that hasn't changed that much since the Middle Ages. Maybe it's time to reconsider our service delivery system. Surely in this new century there are technologies available to provide and certify competence in almost any field more efficiently than we're doing now. Or simply provide structured opportunities for learning for its own sake.

I'm not sure why we haven't made more serious efforts there. Do our elites prefer the current system as a sort of barrier to entry? Are the upper ranks of the academy preserving their status and privileges? Are employers fearful of testing competence in various areas without regard to degrees? Do the middle and upper classes need somewhere to park their children in what seems to be an ever-longer period before independent adulthood?

[catherine]

And that's why we should all be grateful for patrons of culture like you and Lorenzo de' Medici.

But, lacking other resources, most people need to focus on more practical matters (hopefully not entirely) out of necessity.

We view education from so many different aspects. We want it to make us better, more thoughtful and interesting people (although we often slip into indoctrination). We want professional credentials. We want status markers. We want to make contacts for business and social purposes. And we try to obtain those things through a university system that hasn't changed that much since the Middle Ages. Maybe it's time to reconsider our service delivery system. Surely in this new century there are technologies available to provide and certify competence in almost any field more efficiently than we're doing now. Or simply provided structured opportunity for learning for its own sake.

I'm not sure why we haven't made more serious efforts there. Do our elites prefer the current system as a sort of barrier to entry? Are the upper ranks of the academy preserving their status and privileges? Are employers fearful of testing competence in various areas without regard to degrees? Do the middle and upper classes need somewhere to park their children in what seems to be an ever-longer period before independent adulthood?

Great points. Personally, I love learning. It's the only satisfying part of my job in market research--it forces me to learn a little about many different healthcare conditions. I love reading Shakespeare and watching Air Disasters on the Smithsonian Channel, and reading the lightweight non-fiction of Bill Bryson, and going to my Master Gardener's class which gives me a solid credential as a poseur in botany.

But then there's son #1 who dropped out of high school, became a golf professional, and then a college student and then a lawyer--the reasons for his untraditional trajectory are touched on in your post. Then there's my other son who is a self-taught musician/singer/songwriter, who waits tables as his "day job" and pays his bills but constantly feels that he is an underperformer according to society's standards--especially when he's out there on Bumbler meeting potential life partners. I have tried to turn him on to Ansel Adams, Suelo, the Nearing's, and all those who value non-monetary raisons-d'etre but it's hard. He is doing exactly what he loves but he feels it's not good enough even in a city like Burlington, VT.

One time I was in the supermarket line, and one of my neighbors (typical NJ soccer/heicopter mom) stood behind me. Our sons had played soccer together at an earlier time--they were both now adults. She asked how my son was doing. This was when he was a pro golfer, and I proudly told her about his job teaching golf and traveling all over the South getting to work outside and do something he loves.

"Huhn" she snorted. "At least that's better than working at McDonalds."

Gosh darn those elites you speak of, LDAHL.

[pinkytoe]

I volunteer at a public school kindergarten. It is interesting to see how we train our little kiddos to be cogs in a wheel from an early age. I can already pick out the ones who will have trouble making it through the system as their little brains are wired to be creative and spontaneous.

[SteveinMN]

only if the job ads for that career NEVER list bachelors degree under the requirements or even pluses (and aren't ever likely to 10-20 years down the road). And I wonder how many jobs that is really (probably some nursing where you don't need it, hairdresser maybe. But a lot of things company PAD requirements at this point). Because if it's the kind of job that may be a skilled trade but still preferences candidates with a degree better to get that.
I suspect the companies that fix our cars and inspect our furnace do not require degrees to join the company and move up the ladder. I might expect the person who owns the car store to have a degree in business but I do not expect that of the sales reps. While things have changed some over the last decade or so, IT still offers successful futures for people without degrees in the field or, sometimes, without any degree at all. Certification? Skills training? Sure. But not tens (or hundreds) of thousands in college debt.


But, if people like my daughter only focused on $$$, entire realms of human knowledge would just wink out
Your daughter will have the benefit of not having to service a student loan of a couple hundred thousand dollars. Others' kids are not so blessed. Getting skills training in a field that enables a person to put food on their table and to pay the bills that come with adult life does not obviate humanities education.

I have an interest in architecture; I don't need to get a degree in it to learn (more) about architecture and enjoy it or even apply some of its principles to where I live. I can read great literature or write poetry; there are plenty of resources around for those who want to learn.

There always will be people who either don't need the money or are okay with living a lower-income life to pursue their dreams. But as workplaces continue to change, the idea that everyone needs at least a Bachelor's degree to get in the door needs to be recognized for the outmoded idea that it is.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I suspect the companies that fix our cars and inspect our furnace do not require degrees to join the company and move up the ladder. I might expect the person who owns the car store to have a degree in business but I do not expect that of the sales reps.

sales is it's own thing, it's the one career they might take you with really a record where noone else would hire you, just sink or swim buddy, and they'll find out if you are cut out to sell or not.


While things have changed some over the last decade or so, IT still offers successful futures for people without degrees in the field or, sometimes, without any degree at all. Certification? Skills training? Sure. But not tens (or hundreds) of thousands in college debt.

A degree is so much better if that's what you want to do. Cal State tuition might run you under 30k plus the cost of books for 4 years (I checked), some shitty coding bootcamp is going to cost you 10-20k for training that literally noone is going to care about in a few years (they will always care that you at least got a degree), and some companies will flat out reject for lack of a degree as a matter of policy, and the others who are getting 100 resumes plus for each ad may use it as a filter (*some* won't even care what subject it is in - so yea the person with the basket weaving, ok not really but humanities anyway, degree will move in line before the person without a degree any day). Anyway I don't think everyone needs to get a degree for the sake of their souls (and frankly if literally everyone got one for the sake of their economics they would be nearly 100% worthless economically), just if it is something that is going to matter at all in one's chosen field then it is likely worth it.

Even focusing on trades might be a distraction from the actual economy we live in, there may be a real need for trades people and so some people might really benefit from going that route *IF* it suits them (the blue collar world is a different world to adapt to though if it's not what one is used to, but not all trades are blue collar - medical isn't), but even more than a need for trades people OR white collar people with degrees, it is still an economy made up to a large degree of low paid service work, for which there is a large need, but hardly pays enough to live off of.

[Float On]

Son #1 went to a college that was only a humanities program. Everyone comes out with the same degree. It was expensive but he had an incredible scholarship and enough in his college investment account to take care of 4 years there. Then he would of needed to go on for something else more specialized. It depressed him greatly when he realized even though he had his funding in place he was the poorest one there and none of his classmates were ever going to need to work for a living (trust fund babies). He couldn't handle that kind of life pressure and bottomed out and flunked out! His college investment fund is still sitting there growing and he thinks he'll give college a try again but a university with actual degrees.

[Williamsmith]

My poor perspective requires me to seek altitude to gain another’s view. Virtually nobody in my extended family reached the upper middle class, let’s see ......a state trooper, a mailman, an insurance salesman, an insurance adjuster, a secretary for an insurance agency, a state museum curator, a school receptionist, one who married up after divorcing her first. It’s our position in life. Rarely does anyone venture to the elite or even the upper crust. Mostly, I suspect we scoff at those educated at the masters and PhD levels. There’s still a touch of jealousy there, no doubt. What separates the happy from the not so happy regarding their career path is almost unbelievable but it’s the constant staving off of the threat that healthcare costs poses. Sans that......I suspect we are a bunch of contented dolts.

[bae]

I was the first in my family to graduate from college.

During the first 15-20 years of my career, nobody ever asked me if I had a degree, what it was in, or where I went.

[ApatheticNoMore]

There was a job nearby and well qualified for that I was told straight out the manager wouldn't consider without a degree (which I don't have, so you see ...). This isn't some generalization about nobody will hire without a degree etc. because that's not true, but a job right where I live, doing what I wanted to do, where I was otherwise well qualified. Ah well, we do pay for our choices (well mostly my choices have been pretty good considering all the obstacles (when young I was impatient to get out in the world and then I don't know, I was just busy living I guess). But wish I had the paper, maybe someday, even a liberal arts degree would open a few doors that aren't open now. If I really didn't care about learning anything practical I'd do sociology or something haha :)).

[Williamsmith]

Upon further review, several of my high school buddies earned engineering degrees from Big Ten schools and one from Carnegie Mellon University. I’m sure they have done fine for themselves, own a second home in the sunny south, have paid for their kids college degrees and probably own a nice sports car. My best man at my wedding didn’t want to go to college, he became a mailman, is still working...worries about how far his retirement money will go and is about as frugal as they come. So I guess, I done okay.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I don't know WS your extended family seems to have what are (or were) solid middle class jobs. The problem is those jobs are becoming less middle class (mailperson is all contract labor now, it was once a steady job) and harder to get (hard to get a job in a school district or in government period doing reception work, hard to get a museum curator job etc..).

[sweetana3]

My brother was a certified civil engineer running his own business when he decided he needed a good retirement and health insurance. Went to work as a mail carrier 20 years ago and has retired. It is incredibly hard to get any kind of government job. When I went back to work in 2000 after a 3 year absence, it took over 90 days to get thru the system and I had over 25 years doing a much higher graded work in the same agency and same office. Just paperwork.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Yea government work can be hard to get, 200 some people in a room taking a test for a single position and I doubt that is everyone who applies either. And then with some local government you get a bunch of points if you are applying for a new position and you you've already worked for the government, which kind of makes it really hard for those who haven't worked for government to get an in at all, because no matter how good a candidate they otherwise are, they have to compete with all these people with bonus points already.

[razz]

I got my diploma in dental hygiene from university program that included about a third of the credits towards a BA. When we moved around with DH's work, we finally reached a location where I could complete my degree. I had said so often that I wished I could find a way to complete it that my DH gave my the option - do it now or be quiet about it. I completed it at night school working 8am-6pm and class from 6:30pm-9:30pm three nights a week graduating with an English major. I had such fun exploring life with the electives that were offered - cultural studies, Great Lakes environmental legislation, accounting, philosophy, organizational behaviour... I have used the knowledge gained in so many aspects of my life that I developed a whole new appreciation for the value in studying the humanities.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Although lack of a degree may have cost me that job, so yea it's one negative and it is pretty much ALWAYS better to get a degree, I really don't think that's my main problem job wise at all. The field and the expectations and etc. just seem weird and bad now mostly at least here.

me <-- will be doing something else in 5 years

eh well enough job rants for now, I'm unemployed and bored and stuff.

[SteveinMN]

ANM, every instance you point to of the necessity of a degree assumes working for "the man". Certainly education and certification matter for professions like doctor, architect, nurse, engineer,...

But nobody cared that Bill Gates was a college dropout when he wrote the first operating system for IBM's personal computers and started Microsoft. I've never grilled the woman who owns the flower shop I like about whether she's got a degree in horticulture, and I wouldn't switch shops if she didn't. The woman who runs the local coffee shop has a ServSafe certificate, but I couldn't tell you if she has any more certificates/degrees on the wall. The shop has been there for six years regardless. Does anyone give a rip if Logan Paul (of YouTube fame) has a degree? Yet he makes a bundle of $$ from YouTube. My 30-year-old son-in-law has had sales and training jobs at A Big Bank; he has been told they will require a degree for him to move into management (if he wants that) but he makes a good salary at the jobs he's had and his work is in little danger for the foreseeable future of being farmed out to a worker from off-shore or to some artificial-intelligence algorithm.

My point is that there are all kinds of ways to make money that don't require a degree. An increasing number of those ways, though, call for not working at organizations which establish rules like having to have a degree for jobs in which having one is of marginal value. Do your own thing and it's results, not diplomas, that count.

[Teacher Terry]

Many states have job centers that will help you find a job or get some short term training to get back into the work force.

[JaneV2.0]

State employment agencies used to help you find jobs--used to match you with prospective employers,etc. Now they just advise you to spam your resume everywhere. That was my experience circa 2000, anyway.

A friend's husband is the vice president of sales for an IT company. He has a high school diploma.

[catherine]

Do your own thing and it's results, not diplomas, that count.

Amen.

Although I have to admit that it's easier if you have already built contacts OR you are a real hustler. Not everyone is good at selling themselves. In my case, I have a BA vs almost everyone else I work with with at LEAST a master's. But I worked my way in slowly--if I had to hustle my way in, I'd be homeless, since I'm the world's worst salesperson--especially when it comes to selling myself.

In lieu of contacts and having the personality of an influencer, you often do need academic credentials as the foot in the door.

[Teacher Terry]

Jane, not in my state. They have more than 1 office locally and help with finding jobs and short term training for skills you don't have. They are a great asset.

[JaneV2.0]

Jane, not in my state. They have more than 1 office locally and help with finding jobs and short term training for skills you don't have. They are a great asset.

That's the way ours used to be, in the early days. I've had no experience with them lately; they may have improved.