Communication! (Maybe)

[Chicken lady]

Dh is an engineer.

When I am working, I spread things out all around me in stacks and piles and arrangements that look very random to him. If I go away I leave them in place so that I can come back and begin working again. This drives him nuts.

If he wants to use the space, or the space is bothering him, he gathers all my papers up in a neat pile and puts it somewhere. For years I have tried to explain to him that he has destroyed my “filing system” and caused me tons more work and frustration by doing that. I tell him that if he will just ask me, I will move everything to a different space, it will take a few more minutes, but it will save me hours. He doesn’t get it.


Today, he started to move some things off the couch, and I said “STOP. Let me do that. It matters where you put them. The act of moving them matters.” Then I had a brainstorm - “think of this as a giant circuit board. When I look at a circuit board, it just looks like a collection of random little pieces and designs on a surface to me, but if I started pulling all the pieces off and wiping away the lines to clean the surface, I would destroy the circuit board, and even if all the pieces were collected neatly in a bag, they would no longer be functional and all the work would be undone and the person who built the circuit board would have to start over before he could use it for what it was for, right? My ‘mess’ is like my circuit board that records information and allows me to work on a problem.” And he said “oh.”

[nswef]

I hope it helps him see your system. But, as an engineer I am sure he "knows" his way is right.

[mschrisgo2]

Clever, valuable brainstorm. I hope he remembers it.

I'm wishing you had a dedicated space to spread out your work

[herbgeek]

I'm an engineer, and I use Chickenlady's method for organizing. I'll put something near the door, so I have a visual reminder I need to do something, and he puts it away, assuming its just out of place. I've had to explain to him repeatedly that I remember things kinetically (I remember best if I visualize interacting with an item) as well as visually. I've learned to operate in the normal world with writing things down on a list, but I prefer to have a physical object to prompt me to buy new sneakers, return the library books, go to the bank. Anything that would be critical to forget is placed in my path to my car.

I feel your agony CL about a roommate who just piles the stuff up! And I laughed at your analogy, as my husband is a retired hardware engineer who designed circuit boards, so he would totally get what you said.

[Chicken lady]

Well, today I “dedicated” the space in front of the wood stove. It was a very good space. It has a braided rug with concentric circles, and a footstool, and a couch, and a chair that things can go under or on for organizational purposes, and the fire warms my back. I finished a lot of things, so most of it is cleaned up now.

[SteveinMN]

I've learned to operate in the normal world with writing things down on a list, but I prefer to have a physical object to prompt me to buy new sneakers, return the library books, go to the bank. Anything that would be critical to forget is placed in my path to my car.
I have been "accused"* :D of having an engineer's mindset though I was not one by trade. I keep a physical object around long enough to note what has to be done with it (empty TP core reminds me that I need to check the bathroom's stock; empty spice container reminds me I need to put paprika on the grocery list; etc.). I'm also OCdisciplined enough to put things (car keys, cooking thermometer, and so on) in the same places every time so I know where they are when I reach for them.

I am, perhaps, fortunate that DW has an almost "anti-kinetic" relationship with objects. Items like her shoes, envelopes from mail addressed to her, and empty drinking glasses cease to be visible to DW as soon as she's no longer using them. Of course, the flip side of that is that DW really doesn't even notice that the spice container on the counter so it's not typically at risk of being "cleaned up". I have yet to find as eloquent an explanation of either method as CL did for her DH.


* "Are you an engineer because you're that way or are you that way because you're an engineer?"

[Teacher Terry]

Now that the kids are gone why not use one of their bedrooms for a office? My office is also the guest bedroom. That way you can lay stuff out and not have to risk having it disturbed. If my DH lays out stuff that is not in his space you can bet I am cleaning it up.

[Chicken lady]

Because when they moved out for college, we knocked holes in the walls and put in nice big windows, then they got married, we put queen sized beds in their rooms, and there is now not room for a desk. (Pretty sure I mentioned this somewhere?)

i had been looking forward to a craft room/office, but it is more important to me to be able to have my family here.

dh deliberately planned the windows for maximum light (which is lovely) and minimum furniture (which is fine for a guest room, but not for an office/craftroom.

so my stuff is still scattered/stashed where it has been and I unpack it all over various rooms to work on.

[Teacher Terry]

I had forgotten about that. I only put a double bed in my guest room/office. It is a small room and there are times where I have stuff laid out on the bed. I hope I am not asking you again in a year:|(

[ToomuchStuff]

* "Are you an engineer because you're that way or are you that way because you're an engineer?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EbNrTf-cQE

[razz]

I keep a physical object around long enough to note what has to be done with it (empty TP core reminds me that I need to check the bathroom's stock; empty spice container reminds me I need to put paprika on the grocery list; etc.). I'm also OCdisciplined enough to put things (car keys, cooking thermometer, and so on) in the same places every time so I know where they are when I reach for them.

I do this all the time and thought it was the normal thing to do, Dilbert notwithstanding :D. I really dislike it when someone interrupts my pattern by removing the reminder items or relocating them. I also do the lists to ensure that everything gets done eventually.

[iris lilies]

While I so,etimes keep a physical object around as a reminder, that can backfire. If it too big, or if you cant get around to dealing with the thing for a while, it is clutter.

DH does that and sometimes this stuff gets in the way.

I say put the thing in a To Do list and move the clutter out of your house.

[Chicken lady]

For me, out of sight, out of mind. Including the todo list.

when I have to remember something very important, I write it on a piece of tape and tape it to my arm. The tape tugging on my skin reminds me to look at it.

on the topic of communication, iris lilies, your response makes me think of my dh.

this is how I perceive it:
“I say put the thing in a To Do list and move the clutter out of your house.” = “The thing you do, and therefor the way your brain works, is wrong. You should do the thing I do because my brain works the correct way and my thing is the universal right thing to do.”

alternately (and what you may very well have intended):
”I prefer to put the thing on a to do list and move it out of my house” = “this is what works for me because this is how my brain works and I find the item to be clutter and it is frustrating to me.”

We keep running out of spaghetti sauce because dh gets it from the pantry, uses it when I am not looking, rinses out the jar, and tosses it in the recycling. So, when I make the grocery list, I don’t see the jar, and I don’t add spaghetti sauce. Even if he writes spaghetti sauce on the list, I don’t get it, because I remember putting a bunch in the pantry and he writes things down without checking frequently. So I see it on the list and remember that I put three jars in the pantry and have not used them. Eating food with spaghetti sauce in it is not enough to trigger the memory that it has been used. I have to actually use the sauce, wash out the jar, or see the empty jar on the counter.

[Tybee]

We started a list by the door (which reminds me, I lost the list so need to reinstate this system) where the person who notices the need writes it down and then when we go out, it is right there. My husband is famous for cooking with the last of whatever vital ingredient I will need to prepare the food I am planning to prepare, so we fight about this a lot.

Speaking of the empty bottle reminder method, my mom was doing this when she was still in her house and it freaked me out--I said, Mom, you are out of everything you need, like dish detergent, soap, laundry detergent--it kept happening, and she said, "I keep the empty bottle there to remind me we need it." So it seems this method works better with one person, as it is not immediately apparent with second person what is going on.

Not sure if my dad ever understood why she had these empty bottles everywhere, to know he had to buy them at store.

I am trying to adapt new habits that can take us into old age, as this was definitely part of her dementia, as she had never done it this way before.

Gosh it is hard getting old. also hard living together in harmony with different systems, so we are trying to protect our marriage by coming up with agreed up systems, ways to do things. It is not worth living alone to do things my way, at this point.

[iris lilies]

For me, out of sight, out of mind. Including the todo list.

when I have to remember something very important, I write it on a piece of tape and tape it to my arm. The tape tugging on my skin reminds me to look at it.

on the topic of communication, iris lilies, your response makes me think of my dh.

this is how I perceive it:
“I say put the thing in a To Do list and move the clutter out of your house.” = “The thing you do, and therefor the way your brain works, is wrong. You should do the thing I do because my brain works the correct way and my thing is the universal right thing to do.”

alternately (and what you may very well have intended):
”I prefer to put the thing on a to do list and move it out of my house” = “this is what works for me because this is how my brain works and I find the item to be clutter and it is frustrating to me.”

We keep running out of spaghetti sauce because dh gets it from the pantry, uses it when I am not looking, rinses out the jar, and tosses it in the recycling. So, when I make the grocery list, I don’t see the jar, and I don’t add spaghetti sauce. Even if he writes spaghetti sauce on the list, I don’t get it, because I remember putting a bunch in the pantry and he writes things down without checking frequently. So I see it on the list and remember that I put three jars in the pantry and have not used them. Eating food with spaghetti sauce in it is not enough to trigger the memory that it has been used. I have to actually use the sauce, wash out the jar, or see the empty jar on the counter.

I have to clean around the clutter. I beg him to keep crap off of the window sills. That is his latest resting place for stuff, there temporarily but sometimes that temporary period is months.

Fortunately we both know how to utilize a grocery list and have oir system down.

He is repulsed by crumbs on the counter AND YET he will ignore grease inches deep, dog filth, dirty toilets, etc. In my mind crumbs on the counter are “clean”mess but grease and dog stuff is disease harboring. He apologizes for tracking dirt onto the floor after I have just cleaned it but that never bothers me, floors exist to get dirty. It is the grime and etc. on surfaces closer to my face and hands that bug me. Also, I think of garden dirt as being fairly innocuous but of course that is silly, it can be just as full of pathogens as anything else and more so.

This isnt especially in response to you, but it expands on the idea of brains working differently in household matters.

[Chicken lady]

We generally handle these in two ways:

1) the person who is being bothered takes care of the task - but, this is how my “circuit boards” get destroyed, so I am trying to get through to him that while he thinks cleaning it up FOR me is a “favor” the actual nice thing to do would be to let me know he needs the space cleared up and give me a little time to do it (ten minutes or so if i’m not busy - but clearly if i’m getting ready to leave for work or some such, it will have to wait.)

or

2) the person who is bothered but hates the job asks the person who is not bothered but doesn’t mind the job to do it and then expresses gratitude, in whatever language works for you. (Example: Monday, Dh opens drawer and gets dressed: Dh: “I am out of underwear.” Me <does laundry> Tuesday, Dh opens drawer: Dh in excited voice “You did my laundry!”)

I don’t think it is ok for you to have to clean around the clutter. At my house, the windowsills would go like this:
”I really want to clean the windowsills, but you have stuff on them.”

A) do you need to do that right now?
yes.
ok, let me get this in the oven and I will move it.

Or

B) ok, i’ll move it

stuff gets moved to some other surface, windowsills get cleaned, stuff goes back on windowsills.

[iris lilies]

This weekend I had a communication breakthrough of sorts with dh.

There are certain coffee mugs he will not use. There are certain coffee mugs I will not use. i will not use the ones that get hot overall when used in the microwave oven. That is how we make all of our coffee which is instant.

Well, I learned this weekend when shopping at the thrift store exactly why he wont use certain types: he wants mugs that have big handle s that allow him to hold the mug with a full 4 fingers.
Ok, I can deal with that and now knowk my shopping parameters at the thrift store where mugs sell for 25 cents. I need additional mugs here and at pir weekend house.

For years I disnt understand why certain mugs were never used by him, he would not articulate the reason would just summarize “ I dont like them.”

[Teacher Terry]

If I need to move something to clean you can bet I am not going to put it pack where it does not belong. I move it to his space where he is free to be a slob but not in the main living areas. If you don't inconvenience someone they will never change. Actually my DH has changed a lot in the past 20 years in this regard. He is much better at containing his messes in his office, garage or shed.

[Chicken lady]

Teacher Terry, I would move the things for the cleaning person, then I would move them back. I was presuming he was using the windowsills as his “circuit board”, “memo”, “to do list”, whichever. If they simply needed to be put away and had a place, anybody could move them.

When people inconvenience me on purpose, I change. I change from pleasant to pissed off. This usually results in even more behavior that displeases the inconveniencer. This is why the picking up my piles is such a big deal. I keep trying to give him the benefit of the doubt and assume that he isn’t doing it to piss me off, since I am making the piles because I need to do something, not to piss him off.

If someone is willing to state the problem and why it is a problem, I am usually willing to work with them. It also helps if they ask why I am doing something instead of just telling me it is wrong. (Like iris lilies’ mugs) That doesn’t mean they always get their way. Our “living areas” are usually the most disordered, because I am living in them. The guest room looks really nice unless I have stashed laundry on the bed. But we rarely go in there. We like to do things where there is music and food and fire and room to spread out.

[Teacher Terry]

My ex thought I was a slob and he liked everything perfect which didn't happen with 3 small kids. Mu DH thinks I am too neat and fussy. It is all in the eyes of the beholder I guess. I want my living room, dining room and kitchen to be neat and relaxing. I can invite people over without having to clean up. We each have our own office for projects and he has garage and enormous shed that came with the house for his projects. If I let him he would have a mess in every room of the house. My side of the bedroom is neat and his is messy. We lived together for 5 years before marrying so each of us knew what we were getting into and what compromises had to be made. My ex would take your coffee cup and put it in the dishwasher when I went to the bathroom. I would have to take it with me or announce that I wasn't done. My husband is so disorganized so is always looking for tools, etc when he needs them. If he dies first and I clean out those areas I bet he has many duplicate tools.

[Chicken lady]

Lol, I can invite people over without cleaning up too, because Nobody I would want in my house cares what it looks like.

big on relaxing. Totally indifferent to neat.

[SteveinMN]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4EbNrTf-cQE
:+1: Around here we have a phenomenon that something mechanical or electronic isn't working until I touch it. We refer to that as the "Technician Not Present error".

[Teacher Terry]

None of my friends cares what my house looks like and I don't care about their's either. I find it relaxing to be in a neat environment versus chaos.

[Chicken lady]

You got that I started out with laughing, right?

i am a serious introvert. Also, I like a little chaos. Complete order feels very static and dead to me - also constricting, like, don’t do anything, because whatever you do, it’s downhill from here.

[Teacher Terry]

I did get that:)) I just didn't want you to think my friends were snobs. That's funny that you like a little chaos. You have a unique personality but if we were all the same life would be boring indeed. My MIL was a hoarder and had trouble throwing things away. Not garbage but things she had bought or was given. She was also one of the nicest, kindest people on this planet. She died too young at 66 from a medical error and at her funeral I had all her friends telling me how much she loved me. That was a real gift.

[iris lilies]

Let me relate a life story that touches on some of these issues:

For years oir house was in consruction mode.There was subflooring all around, ladders and a welding tank
were stored in the living room. Kitchen cabinets were partially built and there were no doors which required me to wipe off the surface of each plate before we used it because plaster dust. Furniture came from the alley because of dogs and plaster dust and grime.

My haven in this sea of chaos was the houses of my friends. I loved going to places like Teacher Terry’s well ordered and carefully decorated house for dinner or drinks. Certainly
I enjoyed the magnificence of some of these houses’s architectural features, but even the simple houses were a pleasure to visit because they were clean and orderly.

so thank you to the universe to those who have nicely kept houses for us to have respite from the storm!

[iris lilies]

Let me relate a life story that touches on some of these issues:

For years our house was in construction mode.There was subflooring all around, ladders and a welding tank
were stored in the living room. Kitchen cabinets were partially built and there were no doors which required me to wipe off the surface of each plate before we used it because plaster dust. Furniture came from the alley because of dogs and plaster dust and grime.

My haven in this sea of chaos was the houses of my friends. I loved going to places like Teacher Terry’s well ordered and carefully decorated house for dinner or drinks. Certainly
I enjoyed the magnificence of some of these houses’ architectural features, but even the simple houses were a pleasure to visit because they were clean and orderly.

so thank you to the universe to those who have nicely kept houses for us to have respite from the storm!