You really do give up a lot to hold down a job, don't you?

[gimmethesimplelife]

I'm not complaining here and I am grateful to have my current Site Supervisor job - I just want to state this from the very beginning of this post to make this clear.

It's just that I realized this morning when I woke up at 3:45AM so that I'd have time to respond to the police sociopathery that took place in Sacramento, CA recently...........I realized that more than anything else I should be in Sacramento joining the protests against the Above The Law At All Costs Sacramento California PD - but of course I can't be there due to my job. I'm not saying this is wrong but it's really dawning on me that the system is set up this way - so that most Americans are slaves to debt and can not break away to protest injustice. This is how police departments nationwide bank of getting away with their illegal behavior - how tired and tied to a job most citizens are.

I'm doing my bit against the Sacramento PD this morning as I couldn't live with myself if i didn't, knowing what I do about the American Police - but what I am able to do seems woefully inadequate giving my life experiences in the United States - something else to feel bad about now. It just doesn't seem enough, what I am able to do while holding down this job. How to make peace with this? I don't know that such is even possible, but I am still grateful to be holding down this new job nonetheless. Rob

[ApatheticNoMore]

There's more to it of course. People may fear if they get arrested in a protest etc. that arrest will make them unhirable. It might. I've seldom worked anywhere that didn't do a background check prior to hiring, so that's the reality: background checks as far as they eye can see.

I wouldn't say whether people should be afraid of this and let this stop them or not because it's not for me to dictate the intersection between the moral and the practical (ie I'm not giving advice on whether people should protest or not, so much as thinking of things that might influence behaviors in society at large). Nor can I even put a number on the likelihood of it really being a negative or showing up on a background check. I simply don't know!

Those who can more readily make a difference (I don't know maybe government workers have a lot of protections, certainly the self-employed who don't see a need to work for the man in the future are freer, those who have a means of support besides working - ie a spouse who is gladly the breadwinner, a retirement check coming in), can use that increased freedom if they wish to be more involved.

[sweetana3]

I suspect you hold down a job to buy food, housing, and everything else you want daily. Go ahead and give up your job to protest but don't expect the public/taxpayers to pay for your lifestyle of choice.

Sure if you are disabled, etc., help should be provided.

[Teacher Terry]

When I was raising my 3 kids and working I didn't have time to watch a TV program let alone worry about protests. Now I have lots of time. I think we live our lives in stages. In my perfect world a full time job would be 4 8 hour days with 3 days off for better home/work balance. However, my first responsibility is to my own family to provide for them and then for social justice. I am happy to see so many young people become involved with gun violence and all the protesting, etc. They have the energy and the time:))

[Tybee]

I feel lucky to have any job, at this point.

[catherine]

I kind of know how you feel, Rob. I've always pushed my kids towards "meaningful work." At the same time, raising 4 kids I had to do what I had to survive and attend to their needs. So, I've spent the last 20 years in a great job from a financial comfort position, but I, too, often feel that I have sacrificed that "meaningful" stuff I've tried to encourage my kids.

I don't regret it at all, even though I'm a huge proponent of Charles Eisenstein (Sacred Economics) and I hear what you say about "the system." But here is what I come down to:

--We all need to work to live. So you get to pick your poison--and I, for one, don't believe work is "poison." My favorite all-time quote is MLK's quote about being the best street sweeper you can be if that's what you are called to do.* One time my struggling-artist-singer-songwriter son asked me why I chose my career, and I said, "I did it for the money." He was shocked that I would say that, so he pressed on. "No, I mean, you must find something creative and fulfilling about what you do." And I said, "Nah. I did it for the money." My personal trade-off for slogging to peddle drugs for Pharma companies rather than "following my bliss" was the satisfaction of sending 4 kids through college, maintaining my house and getting away from the poverty of earlier life (which was hell) and being able to choose the causes I wished to give my modest monetary support to.

--which brings me to the second point. There are so many ways to live in alignment with your values and support your causes. If you have a couple of extra bucks that you don't need, there are a million charities that will happy to take it. Or you could find ways to carve out your time to be able to volunteer. It's not an all-or-nothing proposition.

You are already living a life of integrity, Rob. You're not good to anyone if you are not using your skills and talents to the best of your ability. You need, and you deserve a roof over your head and a decent quality of life. I'm sure your staff is thrilled that you've chosen this pathway for the time being, as opposed to someone less compassionate and loving. Your calling at the moment is to gift your employees by being the best supervisor you can be.

Is the system set up this way? Yes. But this is the hand we're dealt for the time being. Use your off-time to change it, but use your work-time to fulfill your own needs. You're allowed.

* "Do your work so well that no one could do it better. Do it so well that all the hosts of heaven and earth will have to say, 'here's a man who did his job as if God Almighty called him at this particular time in history to do it."

[Teacher Terry]

I agree with Catherine that you probably have many employees that are grateful for a compassionate supervisor. A good supervisor makes a huge difference in quality of work life. I was lucky enough to choose what to go to college and then grad school for something I loved because my ex had a good job and we were frugal so we were able to make that happen. He was a big believer in liking your job as he had a master's in math plus a teaching certificate but hated corporate life and teaching. So he ended up getting a apprenticeship to be a tool and dye maker which he loved. We paid cash for my first 2 degrees and I had a free ride for the other 2 due to my grades. However, he also believed in doing any type of work if you needed $ and nothing was below him to do. I really admired his work ethic.

[iris lilies]

Funny, I have all the time in the world as a retired person and it wouldnt occur to me to go to Cali to protest the latest whatever.

[Teacher Terry]

I know a lot of people that went to our local Women's march but at my age I am afraid of some moron driving a car into the crowd, etc. That actually happened a year or so ago and the poor woman was older and will never be the same. I can't afford to be in any worse shape then I am:))

[catherine]

Funny, I have all the time in the world as a retired person and it wouldnt occur to me to go to Cali to protest the latest whatever.

Maybe your calling is to make the world more beautiful through the proliferation of irises and lilies.

And btw, I'm organizing our annual mini-college reunion and we're going to the NY Botanical Garden where they're having an orchid exhibit. (https://www.nybg.org/event/the-orchid-show/) Can't wait!

[BikingLady]

Food, Shelter and Clothing is what most do for work. Few seem to be actually blessed to do what they really love and would do forever if they could. Usually what one loves or hobby would not be a good work as that would turn it into work.

[Tradd]

Rob, who do you expect to support you while you go off gallavanting from one protest to another?

It’s called being a responsible adult and supporting yourself.

If you actually expect someone else to pay for your rent, food, utilities, and mobile phone, etc., in addition to traveling expenses to all those protests, I don’t know what to say. Words fail me.

Are the responsible adults who work and pay their taxes going to support the ones who don’t want to work and just protest all the time? Hell, no!

There are a lot more people who deserve help before the likes of protesters would ever get help.

[Yppej]

Rob if you were willing to retire in the US you could go to all the protests you want then.

For now you can serve where you are. When my parents were struggling to raise three small children they couldn't take off but they did things like participate in Cesar Chavez's grape boycott.

I feel I have been led to the job I have now because an immigrant employee who has been the victim of workplace mobbing needs a friend.

[Chicken lady]

Dh and I started out much farther apart politically. He spent years telling people that one of my goals was to vote him out of a job (I was a real blast at company parties!) I love him. AND thanks to his faith in traditional gender roles, I got him to pay for my food, housing, clothes, car, phone, etc. while I worked on making the world a better place - trickle down theory of social justice. :) I managed to divert some of the capital flowing through the military industrial complex into channels to build a saner society, while raising three kids who stand with me.

i used to talk a lot with my friends about the fact that policies we opposed were feeding, clothing, housing, and educating me and my children. I joked that I needed a t-shirt that said “ sleeping with the enemy since 1988” Most of them felt better us than someone else. I don’t know if the process made me cynical and utilitarian or if I was bent that way already, so it was easier to adapt to the process.

[iris lilies]

...but it's really dawning on me that the system is set up this way - so that most Americans are slaves to debt and can not break away to protest injustice. This is how police departments nationwide bank of getting away with their illegal behavior how tired and tied to a job most citizens are.



Bolded for emphasis.

This is ridiculous, your attributing the behavior of “police departments” as banking on citizens being too busy to pay attention.

But to the larger point, I agree that in general active and engaged citizens are the backbone of a well functioning government. Citizens with their nose to the grindstone, too busy earning the money to buy their consumer crap are missing out on one of their duties as a citizen of society.

[ApatheticNoMore]

The responsible adults who feel no call to help the world, well I wouldn't even call such behavior responsible, because it is not responsibility in any fully developed mature sense. Mature responsibility cares greatly about the outside world. But we don't always act on all we feel called to and sometimes don't dare risk it because we need to survive another day? I know. And I don't fault anyone for taking care of themselves either really. But I'm not sure how responsible such mostly fear based behavior really is. But we do what we need to survive and if we have young kids it is a whole 'nother thing. But those who feel pangs of conscience know what that is like as well, and by no means are our feelings irresponsible. Because mature responsibility cares about the wider world.

Because I actually do understand the dilemma (to be called by conscience, to be agonized by the way of the world). I mean I remember maybe 6 years ago, working, hey a dead end job, because hey it put food on the table temporarily even if it wasn't even good for my OWN long term future (and I'm paying for that now in my own life!). But anyway I remember feeling very upset about all going on politically, and being unable even to sit still hardly (though I did do my work, it didn't require much, it was dead end understand), and I would have gladly have risked much to change things politically, I felt chained to my desk, but also there was no real movements to join and even I'm not deluded enough to think I can single-handedly change the world all alone (peeshaw now that is delusion).

Now, I doubt we would be protesting the same things (I'm not entirely unsympathetic, but priorities differ) and I wonder if I could even justify the carbon impact of getting to another part of Cali to protest unless I took Amtrak or a Greyhound bus (remember that's the only way I ever travel either). But I have felt the conflict. I worked mostly, oh there is a picture of me when I snuck out of work to take place in a keystone xl protest right outside because I really could not sit still when it was right there. Do I feel bad for that?, not for one second ever! (good memories, even if they changed little, I went mostly to morally support the truly good peeps protesting rather than thinking it changed anything), but mostly I worked ...

[Teacher Terry]

I choose to live my values by helping others which I do a lot of. I think that has more impact then protesting but I have friends that attend local protests on weekends because they are all still working.

[bae]

This is a great argument for Universal Basic Income. Then people like Rob wouldn’t be oppressed by having to produce, and could spend their time engaged in necessary protests and virtue signaling.

[Teacher Terry]

I am more in favor of helping people when they are down like we do now versus basic income. Most people want to work and it brings a sense of satisfaction. Yes it brings headaches too but doesn't everything in life have 2 sides to the coin?

[Teacher Terry]

The march against guns etc had quite a decent crowd here I saw on the news and it seemed to around the US. I think it is great that the high school students are taking the lead on this.

[Lainey]

ANM, I think you touched on the "risk" of acting according to our conscience. That's where I and my friends have hesitated in the past, because I think the risk is real.
Remember the joke going around when Obama was first running for president: the employer declares that if Obama is elected, he will go into the company parking lot and lay off those employees with Obama bumper stickers. My then-coworkers thought that joke was pretty funny. Har har har.

But unfortunately it's no joke to many who completely depend on an employer's paycheck. Now with social media a prospective employer is checking for everything they can find about you online. Are there photos of you in the latest anti gun violence march? Maybe your prospective employer is a member of the NRA and now you're off the list of potential employees no matter how skilled and experienced you are. Do you work for a local utility but want to advocate for more renewable energy? Better skip writing that letter to the editor if you want to keep your job.
In the old days they had to have Pinkerton thugs check on you, now it's done with a couple of clicks on a keyboard.

Do I think it's constraining people's right to say what's on their conscience? Yes, absolutely.

[Chicken lady]

Well, there’s a good argument for universal basic income! Much simpler than unemployment, and It keeps you going while you look for a new job more in line with your principles and your former employer deals with the boycott you created when you told everyone on social media why you were fired.

[Lainey]

Agree about UBI. And I think it's more likely than not that we'll see it here in the U.S., probably not in my lifetime, but inevitably because of the job losses due to the rise of Artificial Intelligence. There simply won't be enough paying jobs no matter what, and our society will need to provide the basics.

Will be interesting to see if that allows people to feel more free in their civic and political activity.

[Teacher Terry]

Sure if we get to the point where technology has taken away so many jobs then it may be necessary. Right now I don't see it as helpful.

[ApatheticNoMore]

The argument for UBI besides on some pure principal is that globalization and automation have made lots of workers simply redundant (maybe immigration to a small degree, I don't actually think it's as large as those others at all). There is absolutely no social need for those workers to be productive period. To a degree that to even call it productivity is a complete misnomer because it's actually not needed or wanted socially. But they still have basic needs as human beings, and if we assume they still have some right to exist ...

I understand one can argue there is a need for work that is not being funded now, that's probably true, and government could fund this, but if neither government nor industry step up to fund it ... then what are we left with? Still a UBI seems an approach likely to fail, as it might all just go into inflation (rising rents, rising healthcare costs etc.), reducing costs of basic necessities seems likelier to succeed.

[LDAHL]

The great thing about a UBI is that it would free up peoples’ time so that they can agitate for a bigger UBI.

[Lainey]

The great thing about a UBI is that it would free up peoples’ time so that they can agitate for a bigger UBI.

Interesting. Is that like corporations lobbying for more and greater tax exemptions, aka loopholes? Of course, they "lobby" with envelopes of cash so I guess that's not "agitating."

But we'll have a chance to see UBI in action as Finland begins a trial.

[Alan]

But we'll have a chance to see UBI in action as Finland begins a trial.You know Economics and High Finance have never been my strong suit, but from a Free Market, Capitalist society standpoint, where does the money come from? And what are the expectations for the recipients?

[ApatheticNoMore]

And what are the expectations for the recipients?

They could have expectations and create jobs for the recipients but that's not the way they decided to go. Perhaps they figured a UBI was just more promising. Sometimes I have heard of things requiring volunteering etc. but that's usually unemployment type programs (in other countries) rather than UBI type.

[LDAHL]

Interesting. Is that like corporations lobbying for more and greater tax exemptions, aka loopholes? Of course, they "lobby" with envelopes of cash so I guess that's not "agitating."



I would say that in one case it would be people trying to persuade government to give them more of other peoples’ money, and in the other case it would be the other people trying to persuade government not to take as much.

[Teacher Terry]

They would have to eliminate other social programs to pay for it. However, studies show that people prefer to work then just being given $.. It improves self esteem and makes people feel worthwhile. From my experience helping people with disabilities and welfare recipients get back to work I would say this is true. Sure there are some people that would prefer to collect $ without doing anything but it is definitely not the majority. Jobs provide more then just $ such as socialization, somewhere to go each day, a sense of pride, accomplishment, etc.

[catherine]

Here are a couple of articles about places where UBI is actually being done, or was tried, or where experiments are about to be tried.

Some myths that seem to be dispelled: Cash will disincentivized people from working; People will get lazy, not be motivated to educate themselves; People will spend it on alcohol and drugs; the country will go broke.

In fact, regarding that last point, what they found in Manitoba that under UBI, the % of kids graduating was higher, and healthcare costs declined. When people don't have the stress of just putting food on the table, they don't get stress-related disease or stress-related coping behaviors.

http://basicincome.org/news/2017/05/basic-income-experiments-and-those-so-called-early-2017-updates/

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/nze99z/the-mincome-experiment-dauphin

http://www.businessinsider.com/kenya-village-disproving-biggest-myth-about-basic-income-2017-12

[iris lily]

Here are a couple of articles about places where UBI is actually being done, or was tried, or where experiments are about to be tried.

Some myths that seem to be dispelled: Cash will disincentivized people from working; People will get lazy, not be motivated to educate themselves; People will spend it on alcohol and drugs; the country will go broke.

In fact, regarding that last point, what they found in Manitoba that under UBI, the % of kids graduating was higher, and healthcare costs declined. When people don't have the stress of just putting food on the table, they don't get stress-related disease or stress-related coping behaviors. That is a good 5ong of it is the instated goal.

http://basicincome.org/news/2017/05/basic-income-experiments-and-those-so-called-early-2017-updates/

https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/nze99z/the-mincome-experiment-dauphin

http://www.businessinsider.com/kenya-village-disproving-biggest-myth-about-basic-income-2017-12

Looking at two countries in the first article cited above
I ran the numbers in U.S. dollars because that is the currency I understand.

In Finland, where average rent outside of the big Metropolis of Helsinki is $1,741 monthly, the Fins get $590 monthly.

In Ontario, annual UBI is MAXIMUM $16,144 annually for a single person. Typical rent in Ontario is $15,480 annually.

I cant see that either of these programs reducing “stress” by providing Enough to “put food on the tabl.e” there is actually not enough money for food.these programs do, however, encourage a certain dependence on welfare giving political parties, much like the situation in the United States.

[ApatheticNoMore]

It would reduce stress. It is not enough for you or I to live perhaps, very few of the experiments seem to be really anything that would qualify in the ball park of a living wage or living non-wage as the case may be. But ... consider if one is homeless and it allows them to rent someone's couch, or closet, or floor (all of which people do). That's why average rents tell only so much, people not only have roommates but yea rent couches etc. Ok not much of a lifestyle to be sure. I'm hardly suggesting it's particularly worthy of aspiring to. Just that it is better than before. It lifts people out of even more extreme poverty. People who literally have NO money, people in the U.S. living on $2 a day, then yes it reduces stress. Plus is could be a supplement to some other insufficient income, living with grandma off her social security check, money from driving for Uber etc. and that would make a difference.

[iris lilies]

It would reduce stress. It is not enough for you or I to live perhaps, very few of the experiments seem to be really anything that would qualify in the ball park of a living wage or living non-wage as the case may be. But ... consider if one is homeless and it allows them to rent someone's couch, or closet, or floor (all of which people do). That's why average rents tell only so much, people not only have roommates but yea rent couches etc. Ok not much of a lifestyle to be sure. I'm hardly suggesting it's particularly worthy of aspiring to. Just that it is better than before. It lifts people out of even more extreme poverty. People who literally have NO money, people in the U.S. living on $2 a day, then yes it reduces stress. Plus is could be a supplement to some other insufficient income, living with grandma off her social security check, money from driving for Uber etc. and that would make a difference.
I agree with much of what you say. These UBI amounts do not exist to support a single person renting a 1 br apartment and having a car. I do not think that is a bad thing. . But many times here and elsewhere I have heard lamentation over minimum wage being insufficient to support a single person renting a 1 br apartment. That includes homeless people living alone in a tiny house.

[Teacher Terry]

I just read today that Nevada is the most unaffordable place for people to be able to rent an apartment. You need to make 18/hour to do so and most people make 16/hour. A family just saw their rent go up 40%. This particular family used to make 5k/month between the parents and they have 4 kids. He was in a car accident and lost his leg so can no longer drive his truck for work plus has other injuries so had to go on SSDI. Now they make less then 2k/month and their rent has just gone up to 1325/month. There are so few vacancies and rents high everywhere so they will stay. How they will feed and cloth their kids I have no clue. One of the reasons I am against UBI is because people with disabilities would no longer get SSDI. The amount you get is based on how long you worked and how much you made. If suddenly you become too disabled to work then if you only get UBI it will not be enough to live on and unlike others that are on it that person doesn't have the option of working.

[Lainey]

You know Economics and High Finance have never been my strong suit, but from a Free Market, Capitalist society standpoint, where does the money come from? And what are the expectations for the recipients?

Catherine already posted sites with more information on the economics. Here's one of the Wikipedia pages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income

[Lainey]

It would reduce stress. It is not enough for you or I to live perhaps, very few of the experiments seem to be really anything that would qualify in the ball park of a living wage or living non-wage as the case may be. But ... consider if one is homeless and it allows them to rent someone's couch, or closet, or floor (all of which people do). That's why average rents tell only so much, people not only have roommates but yea rent couches etc. Ok not much of a lifestyle to be sure. I'm hardly suggesting it's particularly worthy of aspiring to. Just that it is better than before. It lifts people out of even more extreme poverty. People who literally have NO money, people in the U.S. living on $2 a day, then yes it reduces stress. Plus is could be a supplement to some other insufficient income, living with grandma off her social security check, money from driving for Uber etc. and that would make a difference.

I agree, ANM. I could see that an amount of $1,200/month could allow one parent to stay at home. That alone would reduce the stress that young families are now under.
Another example: the state of California offers a stipend to family caregivers which also includes health insurance. It allows a family member to be a full-time caregiver to a disabled person, which also keeps that disabled person out of a government facility which is much more expensive. Looking just at the financial aspect, I'm surprised that this alone is not an incentive for universal basic income.

[Alan]

Catherine already posted sites with more information on the economics. Here's one of the Wikipedia pages: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Basic_income
It seems to me that no-one really gets into the weeds to look at the details. I suppose that governments could simply create money without bothering to limit the supply to counter-balancing assets, but we've already seen how that works out in Weimar Germany, several African Nations and now Venezuela where the typical ATM can't hold enough money to purchase a loaf of bread. The only other option I see is to nationalize 90% or more of all wealth and re-distribute it, although that doesn't seem to work long term either.

As I said earlier, I'm not an economist so maybe I'm missing something, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Germany looked at this scheme a few years ago and couldn't come up with a viable means of financing it, so I guess I'm in good company.

[ApatheticNoMore]

The fact that many countries are seriously considering it probably means it's more viable than all that and probably that it's more necessary as well (ie they predict it's likely where automation is going to lead necessarily if there simply aren't jobs for people).

It just hasn't been proven large scale. I put the odds of the U.S. being where it is first tried as pretty much zero though (and I think it would be done badly here anyway - when even healthcare is tied to employment, it's really not the best test case).

[Yppej]

We can't even get guaranteed health care for all, we're not going to get guaranteed income for all.