View Full Version : "Service Dogs"....
This morning I was at a nice restaurant in our village having breakfast. Shrimp-and-grits, with an egg atop, and some darned fine coffee.
In walks a lady walking a ~20 pound scruffy dog. Muddy, wet, wearing a muddy and wet and tattered "service dog" vest.
She sat at the table next to me, and put her "service dog" up on the bench next to her, and spent the next 45 minutes cooing to it and hand-feeding it, while conversing with a friend who joined her.
The dog was clearly untrained, it did not respond to any of her commands to do anything, and it managed to get dander, mud, and water over nearby diners.
Service dog....
Really?
Ugh. What could lmanagement do, I wonder?
Ugh. What could lmanagement do, I wonder?
I'm curious what they will do when I go back for breakfast tomorrow with my 110 pound Bloodhound (named "Elvis"), with a "service dog" vest on....
Hmmm.....didn't sound like a "real" service dog. Are those vests available for anyone to get? Or is it something that a vet has to sign for........like the doc has to sign for a handicap car sticker.
It sounded more like an "emotional support" pet. Didn't seem like a reasonable situation for anyone else there....except her and her dog.
Hmmm.....didn't sound like a "real" service dog. Are those vests available for anyone to get?
Amazon Prime, in "rat sized dog" size, $19.99.
It sounded more like an "emotional support" pet.
Those seem to be all the rage in the Pacific NW for the past several years.
It must be hard for business owners to deal with this sort of thing.
iris lilies
3-26-18, 4:09pm
Oh this is rife for abuse.
But I recall from back in my working days that there are laws, possibly local? That prohibit business establishments making pointed queries about service dogs. I dont remember the exact discussions that were not allowed, but it was an issue that required careful treatment.
There used to be someone here on our SL site who, having nothing better to do, seemed to me to take a little joy in testing out business establishments and their tolerence of her service dog. She had the dog for emotional support purposes.
Ugh, you have pushed one of my pet peeve buttons. They are ubiquitous here, too. Now I do respect a legit service dog relationship. A few weeks ago while on a plane to the southwest, my husband elbowed me and motioned to the passenger across from us. The woman had a service dog between her feet with its head under the seat in front of her. This was more than halfway through the flight and I had not even noticed it was there. It scarcely moved at all until she got up to leave. Obviously trained service dog.
But then I see many, many more like the ones you described at the restaurant. The owners are reluctant to say anything. Maybe if enough people complained...
Oh this is rife for abuse.
But I recall from back in my working days that there are laws, possibly local? That prohibit business establishments making pointed queries about service dogs. I dont remember the exact discussions that were not allowed, but it was an issue that required careful treatment.
There used to be someone here on our SL site who, having nothing better to do, seemed to me to take a little joy in testing out business establishments and their tolerence of her service dog. She had the dog for emotional support purposes.
In this state, a service animal "means an animal that is trained for the purpose of assisting or accommodating a sensory, mental, or physical disability of a person with a disability." Emotional support animals are not considered "trained". This dog was clearly untrained.
As I understand it, you can't ask about the person's disability. You can ask:
- is the dog a service animal required because of a disability?
- what work or task has the dog been trained to perform?
WA state law, and the ADA, do not appear to provide any consideration for "emotional support animals".
iris lilies
3-26-18, 4:31pm
In this state, a service animal "means an animal that is trained for the purpose of assisting or accommodating a sensory, mental, or physical disability of a person with a disability." Emotional support animals are not considered "trained". This dog was clearly untrained.
As I understand it, you can't ask about the person's disability. You can ask:
- is the dog a service animal required because of a disability?
- what work or task has the dog been trained to perform?
WA state law, and the ADA, do not appear to provide any consideration for "emotional support animals".
I equated, perhaps falsely, “sensory”and “emotional”. But the two are or can be related. If I, in an example, experience sensory overload with smells or noise or imagery I consider extreme, I become emotionally upset. A calming influence is my bulldog withh his calm breathing and even his snoring which I find very relaxing.
This is a very volatile subject. There is no clear set of standards. One can have a "service animal" - which is clearly trained for a specific task. However, this grey area is for "support animal" and is different / unregulated / unprotected. The support animal persons are perceived to be passing off pets as service animals, and thats just plain not cool!
My friend has a service dog, with a certification in emotional support. The dog only "works" when she flies, which is bi-monthly. She had a panic attack so severe once the plane had to land and let her off. Landed her on some kind of FAA list. She is naturally mortified - for something she can not control, and can see the look of the flight personnel when she boards her flights. Since the arrival of the dog, no more episodes.
The dog is small. More of a pet breed. Does not wear any identifying clothing/collar/harness when in public. She has a card in her wallet and a letter from a physician, as well as the dogs certification and general vet records. However, she's the queen of the icy stare when some nosy person asks "illegal" questions, and will put them in their place! She said about the same thing bae did - one can ask if the dog is trained to provide a specific task for the owner, but you can't ask what.
I can't believe Amazon sells the vests! I just saw it. Doesn't it seem like they should have a "prescription" for one from a vet? That's crazy.
Duh! That was silly of me. Why would you need anything from a vet? I guess the dog would, if it needed a service human. haha :~)
About support animals. I remember something on the news awhile ago where a lady tried to take her "emotional support" peacock on a flight. It was really big. They didn't let her.
I’m allergic to dogs and cats. But my rights are never considered. And there are more and more of these creatures in public places lately ...
I rarely see these animals in my area, but then again I rarely go out to eat or fly.
Is it the species or the dirt that bothers you most Bae? I wonder what your reaction would be to similarly bedraggled children. I'm picturing young Martha Long, Frank McCourt and Malachy McCourt.
Chicken lady
3-27-18, 6:11am
It seems like in an establishment serving food, one could require the dog to be reasonably clean and dry - just as one requires the human to wear a shirt, no?
my daughter has a friend who was raped. She has a service dog. He is an extremely well trained, large pit bull mix. Kujo has a certificate that says he goes where she goes. Kujo goes to work with her and allows her to be alone at the register in a small store without panicking every time a man walks in alone. Kujo sleeps on her bed. Basically Kujo is a guard dog. He would gladly die for her. But knowing that, having him with her, has let her reclaim her life. Slowly she has become able to go some places without him.
I think of dogs as I think of children--you get the occasional crummy parent who lets the children run wild and be obnoxious in public, but on the whole, it is wonderful to have children welcome in public places, and also wonderful to have dogs. Tammy, I am allergic to cats and have wondered about things like cats on airplanes--it really does not seem fair to have us be unable to do some essential function like fly without endangering our safety. So that is a real negative to the "service dog" trend.
I have seen some really badly trained service dogs who seem unfit for the job, lately, and that is a problem.
I guess some people will always be jerks, but the trend of having folks be able to do things they would not be able to do without the service dog seems a really, really positive one.
This is where traveling around the world lessens our need for perfection in my own area (country).
I remember flying a Spanish airline where smoking was allowed on one side of the plane and my seat on the other side was considered nonsmoking. I remember walking, in socks, around a rat temple in India where the thousands of rats were revered as holy people. Or dealing with nasty monkeys in another city. I am happy that in almost every case, the animals we are talking about here are contained some way, rather clean, well fed and healthy. It does amaze me sometimes that so many Americans expect their world to be a perfect place for everyone at all the time.
I do agree that there are many that try to push the limits on service animals. Probably the same people who try to get treated as disabled to bypass the airport lines or park in handicapped spaces "because they are open."
Sweetana, I disagree a lot about "the same people who try to get treated as disabled to bypass the airport lines."
Many people have disabilities that do require early boarding to be safe, and they are just not apparent to you. Many, many people.
It would not be that hard to have designated flights for everything/everyone and others allergen light/free people. Pets, fragrances, smoke smells on clothing - they all mess with me.
Schools forbid peanuts because of a few with allergies.
I'm not aware of when "service animals" became a thing. I see a lot of ads for people looking for housing that mention they have a service dog.
flowerseverywhere
3-27-18, 10:35am
I saw a dog the other day in the grocery store sitting in the basket. People put food in the basket where the animal unwashed behind was.
At Farmers market on Saturdays, which is very crowded and on blacktop, many people bring dogs. I feel so bad for them, being jostled in crowds with their tender paws on hot blacktop. Plus unless a dog is well trained they are a tripping hazard and they are pulling on their leashes or trying to get to other dogs. It makes no sense at the least, and is cruel at times when it is hot.
I am am very allergic so when dogs approach I ask people to keep the animal away from me as I am so allergic. The other day a lady said to her dog”that’s ok fluffy, don’t mind her, I love you”. Idiot.
flowerseverywhere
3-27-18, 10:37am
I'm not aware of when "service animals" became a thing. I see a lot of ads for people looking for housing that mention they have a service dog.
I think you can’t discriminate against a person with a service dog when renting an apartment. Personally if that is so I would ask for thousands of dollars deposit for possible damages and big upfront cleaning fee if I did not want renters with pets.
Well, not to get "political".......but in this country, everyone has the idea that THEIR wishes and desires, and THEIR freedoms are their birthrights.
Don't get me wrong.........I think it's appropriate for truly disabled people to get a little extra help.........but it can be so easily abused.
I am flabbergasted that you can actually buy those "Service Dog" vests on line, no questions asked.
Teacher Terry
3-27-18, 11:33am
I am super allergic to cats so if I see one seated near me I just ask to be seated somewhere else. I think one reason so many people are flying with a vest for their dog is because the airlines kept increasing the price of having your pet fly in the cabin. We used to take our small dog when flying to see my Mom and in 2009 I was paying 125 each way for the dog to be in a small bag under my seat and it counted as my carry-on. Also yo have to take your dog to the vet and pay for a health certificate. Then if you stay more then 10 days you have to pay another vet to get a certificate to fly home. It gets expensive fast. So if you have a well trained small dog that will just sit on your lap for free that is what people are choosing to do.
Yes a huge issue for me. My former MIL had a 'service dog', untrained and ill-behaved. I didn't even want my children around it. One of their dogs licked my daughter when she was a toddler and her face swelled up and had hives. Turns out the dog had been eating grass and weeds, then she is also allergic to dogs, so massive allergy attack. There were years when I was still around them when we had dog issues ALL the time, like they wanted the kids to spend the night ding but then wouldn't do a deep cleaning for allergies, or they brought the dog over to our no-pets according to lease apartment.
My former MIL says she needs the dog to carry things because she cannot carry over 5 lbs due to fibromyalgia. I don't see that most of a woman's purse is really that necessary (unless she needs emotional support hoarding in her purse). However she didn't actually have the dog carry anything. This was 15-20 years ago, and I could see this exact problem happening. Meanwhile we had several service dogs come in to the banks where I have worked and they were amazing. I have a lot of respect for a service animal. We always asked if we could give them a treat or if they could be touched, sometimes the answer was no when they were working. I have never seen a real one snap or bark or jump,
Yeah, I'm thinking a "real" service dog is easy to spot because they are so well behaved.
I hate it when people act like my allergies are a choice. They think “allergy” means I don’t like their pet.
Teacher Terry
3-27-18, 5:43pm
Definitely not a choice. I love cats but can no longer touch one or go to a house where one lives. I am also pretty allergic to some breeds of dogs. It is weird because we have 3 dogs.
I saw a dog the other day in the grocery store sitting in the basket. People put food in the basket where the animal unwashed behind was.
Where does produce come from? Dirt. What can be walking around on the dirt at the farm? Wild animals. Not immunized domestic animals, wild animals.
I believe in the hygiene hypothesis.
Why does anyone expect a grocery cart to be anywhere near clean? Has anyone every seen one cleaned?
That is one reason why bags are provided in grocery stores to hold produce.
People put purses which might have been set on the ground in their carts, kids with perhaps dirty diapers, and other food containers which could have been handled my many other employees or customers, etc. They could have set leaking poultry/meat packages on the cart. Then all that food is set on the conveyor belt to the cashier and the belt can be seen to have all kinds of deposits on it. A bird could have even taken a leak on the cart while it was sitting outside.
I'll go ahead and say it: I just object to dogs being every. damned. place. I. go. I'm not crazy about dogs (was bitten badly as a child), do not think they're like children, don't like any animal sniffing me (especially in personal areas -- I'm short) or jumping on me or peeing on plants I might have been interested in buying at the farmers market (yes, I've seen that plenty of times---owners are clueless). There are so many at our market that they and their humans impede foot traffic. I've seen dogfights, too long leashes, arguments and stink-eye.
I've heard people say, "oh he loves to come to the farmer's market! It's so helpful for him in becoming socialized!" Well, that's what dog parks are for, in my opinion, or your own neighborhood walkies.
For a legit service animal, I think people should be able to show documentation at any restaurant or store when they're asked. The vests should not be available on Amazon.
Yeah, it's not politically correct these days to admit to not being a dog lover. My pet peeve is people who let their dogs off leash in parks. Or leave their little poo baggies on the trail.
gimmethesimplelife
3-29-18, 9:59am
I'll go ahead and say it: I just object to dogs being every. damned. place. I. go. I'm not crazy about dogs (was bitten badly as a child), do not think they're like children, don't like any animal sniffing me (especially in personal areas -- I'm short) or jumping on me or peeing on plants I might have been interested in buying at the farmers market (yes, I've seen that plenty of times---owners are clueless). There are so many at our market that they and their humans impede foot traffic. I've seen dogfights, too long leashes, arguments and stink-eye.
I've heard people say, "oh he loves to come to the farmer's market! It's so helpful for him in becoming socialized!" Well, that's what dog parks are for, in my opinion, or your own neighborhood walkies.
For a legit service animal, I think people should be able to show documentation at any restaurant or store when they're asked. The vests should not be available on Amazon.KayLR -I agree with you. I also am not especially fond of dogs - I had some issues with dogs when I was like five and six years old and I've always liked cats much better than dogs. Cats to me are much more practical and fascinating whereas I find dogs annoying and high maintenance. I do believe service dogs do some good and I respect that but I'll likely never be a dog lover......Rob
iris lilies
3-29-18, 10:50am
Goodie, dogs vs cats! We are gonna solve THAT age old controversy just like we regularly solved the abortion conflict here, haha!
Dogs ARE high maintenance, often annoying, and they are dirty, smelly, and expensive.
Cats are interesting, quirky, clean, easy to care for, and soft.
There, that’s my contribution.
We have been very blessed to have both dogs and cats. so much love!
The point isn't if dogs or cats are worthwhile human beings (:~)......It's that should dogs (especially dirty ones) be in restaurants (pretending to be service dogs), or in grocery carts. I wouldn't care for either, considering they can get poop on their paws, and eat poop. Shouldn't we draw the line at least SOMEWHERE? I'm totally fine with behaved, clean certifiable service dogs in a restaurant or on a leash in a grocery store, but not the other situations.
iris lilies
3-29-18, 12:17pm
The point isn't if dogs or cats are worthwhile human beings (:~)......It's that should dogs (especially dirty ones) be in restaurants (pretending to be service dogs), or in grocery carts. I wouldn't care for either, considering they can get poop on their paws, and eat poop. Shouldn't we draw the line at least SOMEWHERE? I'm totally fine with behaved, clean certifiable service dogs in a restaurant or on a leash in a grocery store, but not the other situations.
100% of human bites become infected. Only about 50% of dog bites become infected. Who is cleaner?
Just kidding, I dont care much one way or the other where dogs are allowed, that is the business owner’s decision.
gimmethesimplelife
3-29-18, 1:08pm
Goodie, dogs vs cats! We are gonna solve THAT age old controversy just like we regularly solved the abortion conflict here, haha!
Dogs ARE high maintenance, often annoying, and they are dirty, smelly, and expensive.
Cats are interesting, quirky, clean, easy to care for, and soft.
There, that’s my contribution.Here's a shocker IL......today we agree on something 100%. I could not agree with your take more here.
And to get back to the original topic......people using dogs as "service animals" when they actually are not "service animals" - not cool. Not cool at all. Rob
iris lilies
3-29-18, 1:20pm
Here's a shocker IL......today we agree on something 100%. I could not agree with your take more here.
And to get back to the original topic......people using dogs as "service animals" when they actually are not "service animals" - not cool. Not cool at all. Rob
But I luuuurrrvvv my smelly bulldog with a love that exceeds any cat love I have had.
Teacher Terry
3-29-18, 1:28pm
i love dogs and cats but have become super allergic to cats and somewhat to dogs. We have 3 dogs and will always have 1 or 2. I am fine with them being everywhere:~). I was attacked a few times by dogs and would not be alive if I had been walking alone one day when a huge dog jumped the 6 ft fence, knocked me down and was going for my throat. I was married to my ex at the time and he attacked it and it did the same to him but he was a vietnam vet so knew how to hurt it. WE called animal control and as much as I love dogs I insisted it be put to sleep or I would take them to court. I did this because there were many small kids on your subdivision and any of them could have been hurt or killed. The people choose to euthanize it. Not sure if it was because of what it did or because I threatened to sue them. Shortly after I got my son's big dog an off leash pitbull started to go for me and Noki got between us and fought him until the stupid owner finally arrived to pull him off. The pit was going for noli's neck and even though he was 9 Noki managed to throw him up in the air and get on top of him. Poor Noki had many bites and slept for 2 days after. I also had a Chi bite me when my back was turned in my ankle. I still love dogs.
Teacher Terry
3-29-18, 1:33pm
Part of the problem is that it is an expense for people with service dogs to have to have special training or paperwork to prove that their dog is a service dog. It discriminates against people with disabilities. So what is meant to help them also allows others to cheat the system. There is not a certain vest for real service animals. They don't even need to wear one. Some service dogs have expensive training like for people that are blind but it is not a requirement.
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