Do you believe that the criminal justice system in the US should be reformed?

[gimmethesimplelife]

And if so, how? And for what reason(s)? I'm going to spare you'all my thoughts as honestly, anyone reading this board for any length of time knows where I stand on these issues already and I'm not out to beat a dead horse here - I'm just curious what other people think. People beyond the 85006. Rob

[Tybee]

Rob, if you are planning on not giving us your thoughts, why post the question? Are you just soliciting opinions--I am confused by this post.

[iris lilies]

The “justice system” is a big huge mondo aparatus with cogs and wheels that range from working beautifully to cogs and wheels that work poorly or do not work st all.

I think it is always worthwhile to lobby your governmental representatives at any level to hold the cops, the peoples’ attorneys, the justices, the prison officials, and everyone associated with them to do their job and do it well. It is also worthwhile to compliment and recognize jobs well done in this system.

There are always aspects of “the justice system” that needs “reform” (most likely improvement.)

So aure, I will reply a cautious but sincere “yes” to your question to mean working the system as it now exists.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob, if you are planning on not giving us your thoughts, why post the question? Are you just soliciting opinions--I am confused by this post.Tybee, hi!

I didn't post my thoughts as my take is that pretty much my thoughts in this area precede me, at least on this board, and I wanted to spare everyone from repeating them again and again and again. Plus I'm curious what other people think about criminal justice reform in general. Rob

[iris lilies]

Tybee, hi!

I didn't post my thoughts as my take is that pretty much my thoughts in this area precede me, at least on this board, and I wanted to spare everyone from repeating them again and again and again. Plus I'm curious what other people think about criminal justice reform in general. Rob
I think sparing us is a good thing, thanks.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I think sparing us is a good thing, thanks.LOL I agree IL......I posted recently about the issues in Sacramento - that's enough for awhile, no? I find it hard to believe that any regular poster/lurker here does not know by now my stance on this topic. But I still am interested in what other people think about this. Rob

[Teacher Terry]

I agree with both IL's posts.

[LDAHL]

I’m fine with it. I don’t believe cops are roaming the country looking for people to kill like Living Dead extras. I don’t believe a night in the drunk tank will destroy your life for eternity. While there’s always room for improvement, I think our system generally functions pretty well.

[Teacher Terry]

I would not call shooting black men many of which are unarmed functioning well. We need changes.

[Zoe Girl]

I would reform by immediately reconsidering people in jail due to small amounts of personal drugs. I am thinking of marijuana since it is becoming legal in more areas. And then consider the circumstances, if there was no other crime or violent history make it more possible for people to rent housing, get jobs, etc. In the long run it benefits us more to have them out of jail and contributing than staying inside for something you can do medicinally or recreationally.

Oh and have a serious look at the cash bond system, I have heard some things that make me think there is room for it to be used badly, but I am open to an investigation rather than just some stories I have heard. I would be interested to know if it is an issue or not, maybe just in some areas.

[Yppej]

Decriminalize drug use. Place people in mandatory medical drug rehab protective custody rather than incarcerating them for possession of all addictive drugs. The length of time "served" should be a minimum of a year, including supervised sober living, so they can get really clean and break old habits and the neurons in their brains can rewire.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I would not call shooting black men many of which are unarmed functioning well. We need changes.I could not agree more - short, sweet, and very well put. Rob

[Rogar]

I think the entire plea deal arrangements are bogus, at least for the more serious crimes. You can be charged with a certain crime, which one would think the evidence supported during an arrest, but get the charge reduced in exchange for a guilty plea? The DA and the judge shake hands and agree on an arrangement that may not be truthful. Or if you are a drug dealer or in politics or what ever you can do something pretty nasty and flip on someone higher up and get your charges reduced or gone altogether.

[jp1]

Oh and have a serious look at the cash bond system, I have heard some things that make me think there is room for it to be used badly, but I am open to an investigation rather than just some stories I have heard. I would be interested to know if it is an issue or not, maybe just in some areas.

Some states, NJ sticks in my mind, have already made significant changes in this area. I tend to think this reform makes sense. I don't know what the numbers are, but I doubt someone that can't even come up with a few thousand bucks for bail is a serious flight risk.

[oldhat]

Decriminalize drug use.

Amen! Yes, the justice system is highly imperfect and the shooting of unarmed black men has got to stop. But, as someone with several cops in my extended family, I can see things from the cops' point of view, too. This country is swimming in guns, and every street cop knows that one split second of hesitation could be his last. Sure, it's a dangerous job, but it shouldn't be a kamikaze mission, either. There's also a curious lack of discrimination on the part of the BLM people as to whom they elevate to martyr status. What happened to that poor guy in Sacramento was horrible, but trying to turn Michael Brown, whose last act in life was robbing a convenience store, into a poster child for police brutality struck me as an odd choice. But maybe that's another conversation.

But there is, to my mind, no more blatant example of racism in the US justice system than the misbegotten, misconceived, feckless and destructive "war on drugs." A lot of racism is perceptible only through nuance, but the plain facts of the war on drugs' racism stare you in the face--e.g., blacks use marijuana at roughly the same rate as whites but suffer five times as many arrests. The current concern about opioids is another example. Opioid addiction has been around a long time, but now that it's a white problem, suddenly it's a real problem.

It's easy to see why, despite its abject failure on every front, the WOD keeps shuffling along like a zombie. There's a huge segment of society--the prison industrial complex, the law enforcement complex, even the drug treatment complex--that benefits hugely from the status quo. It's time to end the madness.

[Tradd]

Those who are put behind bars for violent crimes need to serve their full sentence. There are too many shootings in Chicago where you learn that the suspect was previously behind bars for another gun-related crime, but served very little of his sentence. Gun charges are often plea bargained away here.

[bae]

I would like to see the restoration of trial-by-combat.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Those who are put behind bars for violent crimes need to serve their full sentence. There are too many shootings in Chicago where you learn that the suspect was previously behind bars for another gun-related crime, but served very little of his sentence. Gun charges are often plea bargained away here.It's so nice that things are starting to slow down for me a little - just a little until around mid April - so I can come back and comment and actually have time to do so!

Tradd, don't be shocked but on the one hand I agree with you here - I don't like gun offenses being pled away and I would agree when a gun enters the picture my take on an auto not guilty vote as a juror would be much much much less likely if even possible - having a gun enter a crime reads intent to me, for better or worse. So I agree that these issues should not be pled away. And I don't care for (proven) suspects of a shooting not serving all their time....I agree with you here, too. Surprise!

Here's the on the other hand, though.....you knew there was a but coming, right? The problem I have with my take above - even though I stand by my words above they do cause me some grief and guilt - if we are to crack down on these perps getting out to soon and on plea bargaining these offenses down - we need to hold police accountable to the full extent of the law in situations such as what recently took place in Sacramento. Otherwise the rule of law means nothing, the Constitution means nothing, and the United States truly is not worthy of our talents, drive, and ambition - truly America has not earned our presence in this country if we address the former but not the latter. Personally, I don't have much hope for the future of this country, but that's no surprise to you at this point, and neither are my reasons for this stance new to you at this point, so I will close here before going on and on and on.

My general point? I agree with the overall gist of your post, but only if we address the overkill (good word when you stop and think about it, no?) on the part of American police in general. Addressing your issues without addressing mine is not going to solve any problems long term, though it could be a start, I'll give you that much. And never let it be said that someone from the 85006 (or a similar US zip code) can't be reasonable and concede a point or two. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Decriminalize drug use. Place people in mandatory medical drug rehab protective custody rather than incarcerating them for possession of all addictive drugs. The length of time "served" should be a minimum of a year, including supervised sober living, so they can get really clean and break old habits and the neurons in their brains can rewire.OMG +1,000,000,000 and then some. I fully believe the war on drugs really is all about financing the extensive court, probation, and prison system, along with keeping those who make a middle class living on the overincarceration of US Citizens solidly in the middle class. My take is that much incarceration in the United States has nothing at all to do with justice whatsoever. Yet another reason I see America as I do....and I'll stop here and not go on and on and on.

My point? I could not agree with you more, Yppej. Rob

[Teacher Terry]

WE could close a ton of prisons if we decriminalized drugs. People need treatment and not punishment. Private prisons which are ripe with abuse would go away completely.

[Zoe Girl]

And it is a win-win, to decrimalize non-violent drug convictions then we would have more room to properly convict violent criminals and keep them for the full sentence instead of plea bargaining and early parole.

[oldhat]

WE could close a ton of prisons if we decriminalized drugs.

See my comment above about the prison industrial complex. When you throw someone in jail on a drug charge, he ceases to be a citizen and becomes a profit center. Private prison corporations, prison guards and large segments of law enforcement owe their livelihoods to keeping the jails full.

[ToomuchStuff]

There are certainly aspects I would like to see fixed, but I have never had contact with another countries system to have a comparison. Things like "dead laws" (unenforceable but still on the books, get pulled out if an excuse is needed or left on the books and decades later a new use is found), mandatory sentencing (seems weird to me that someone on a drug charge for a joint back in the day may still be locked up, while I talked with a guy I know (we both were after the same gal), who served his 25 years for murder), etc.
I also think like in life in general, there are good and bad people in the system, as well as competent and incompetent. I have had good and bad LEO"s in the family, and know that both hate IA (knew someone in that, that since passed). But that doesn't mean I will be praising cops getting shot, when someone such as a local cop when he was shot in the head and survived.
However, isn't that why in part we have the system that we have? Protesting only does so much. It is pretty much only a media darling if you don't use it, LOCALLY, to get petitions of registered voters in that area, on a subject they agree on, to get laws changed/corrected/reviewed, etc. This protesting in other area's thing is drivel to me. (hampers serious attempts)

[jp1]

It's going to be interesting to see how the Sacramento police department deals with the private autopsy that the Clark family had done. For seemingly the first time instead of a month's long "investigation" where everyone has a chance to get their stories straight, we now have a fairly damning story up front. Perhaps something useful we could do is separate investigations into potential police wrongdoing from the police themselves.

[bae]

Perhaps something useful we could do is separate investigations into potential police wrongdoing from the police themselves.

I know if I have an “incident” on duty, an agency outside of my own does the investigation and follow up. Seems quite reasonable for anything but the most minor problems. I mean, if I get a speeding ticket on my own time, I have to chat with someone outside about it...

[iris lilies]

Here at Ground Zero of Black Lives Matter,the local city attorney’s office always investigating any shooting death that a policeman had initiated. Then, after Gentle Giant Michael Brown’s demise, the city attorney took over investigation of all officer involved shootings whether they resulted in death or not.

As a taxpayer I think this is all fine. But then, that wasnt enough for the local loud voices demanding justice from police britality and they want an independant investigation by an elite board of law enforcement officials operating from the state. Apparently this is standard in some other states.

While once again, that is fine with me, I also do not ever expect the voices of protest to accept that, either, once it is place.

[jp1]

I know if I have an “incident” on duty, an agency outside of my own does the investigation and follow up. Seems quite reasonable for anything but the most minor problems. I mean, if I get a speeding ticket on my own time, I have to chat with someone outside about it...

In the case of sacramento the DA recieved $85,000 in campaign contributions from police associations in the last election. My understanding is that she’s a reasonably upright DA but i question whether she can act independantly given such an obvious conflict of interest.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Speaking of Sacramento, I find it interesting that the lastest proof that human life doesn't matter to American police took place in Sacramento - I almost moved there in 1991. I'm so glad in retrospect that myself and my friend that I left Arizona with took one look at Sacramento - it didn't help that there was a record breaking heat wave going on that July 4th as we passed through Sacramento and that it was 108F the day I was there - and said - Nope. Onwards to Oregon, where I ended out living for 5 years (Portland, back when it was affordable unlike today). I'm just glad that we passed through Sacramento but moved onwards, though back in 1991 of course there was no way of knowing this would have happened there 27 years later. Rob

[Yppej]

You would think, just as we have infrared heat sensors, that we could have some sort of gunpowder sensor attached to officers with Velcro. Aim it at the suspect and if the reading is zero he doesn't have a gun so don't shoot him.

ETA I just Googled it and a handheld gunpowder sensor does exist.

[bae]

... I find it interesting that the lastest proof that human life doesn't matter to American police took place in Sacramento -

Rob - that’s hateful bullshit. I work with police officers every single day, and most of them are fine men and women who risk a lot to keep our community safe and to help people. Human life matters *a lot* to these folks, and your comments are vile and insulting to the men and women who endure much, in exchange for very little other than to have to listen to people like yourself paint them as monsters.

[iris lilies]

Hell no Sacremento no. Too hot as you say. Move to Arizona because. Um? Well anyway, it isnt California.

[jp1]

Hell no Sacremento no. Too hot as you say. Move to Arizona because. Um.

I noticed the irony there as well.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Hell no Sacremento no. Too hot as you say. Move to Arizona because. Um? Well anyway, it isnt California.IL....no snark here, ok? I graduated Northern Arizona University in Flagstaff December of 1990. I was unable to find work graduating right into the recession of 1990 - 1991 and ended out moving to Portland, OR to look for work - at the time Portland was much less expensive to live in than it is now. We passed through Sacramento on the way and I had been debating trying my luck there.....point being I started this saga in Arizona. And moved on from Sacramento very quickly and ended out in Portland never looking back. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

I noticed the irony there as well.Irony explained away in my above post.....I started this saga in Arizona ending out in Portland. I did move back to Phoenix five years later but that is another story. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Rob - that’s hateful bullshit. I work with police officers every single day, and most of them are fine men and women who risk a lot to keep our community safe and to help people. Human life matters *a lot* to these folks, and your comments are vile and insulting to the men and women who endure much, in exchange for very little other than to have to listen to people like yourself paint them as monsters.Bae, with all due respect, your point here may very well be valid and I won't take from it, ok? I will however say that after the autopsy it would very much appear that the particular officer who pulled the trigger which murdered Mr. Clark? Not of the caliber you describe above, which is my main point and has been on this topic from the moment I raised it on this board. Too many officers are not of the caliber you describe and due to social media, and also due to smartphone video, more and more of America is waking up to this fact. ITS ABOUT TIME (shout I from rooftops in the 85006 LOL) - actually, no don't take me literally, I don't shout from rooftops as this would be very ineffective.

Main point? I believe there are officers in existence of the type you describe. Unfortunately, not all are quality folks as you describe - Sacramento, CA is just the latest somewhat large American metro area learning this firsthand as we speak.

Suggestion? The good cops need to change cop culture to get the sociopaths off the force - PERIOD. It seriously undermines the credibilty of decent police officers that they look the other way and sometimes even cover for sociopaths on the force. Really, it would be wonderful PR that would actually help the cause of American law enforcement if the police would take this suggestion seriously and make strides towards getting those who should never wear a badge off the force ASAP. Obviously this can't happen overnight....even I get that. But if American police want any kind of trust whatsover from a wide swath of the general public going forward, it needs to happen.

Until then? At least a half charged smartphone on you at all times and here's a tip...download the ACLU app whereby you can record illegal activity of the police and then press an icon on the app and your recording is stored at the ACLU for legal analysis and determination of lawsuit potential. It's the least we can all do in regards to this issue to protect ourselves from those officers who are not the type you describe.

One last point? I wonder how the family of Stephon Clark would take your post above at this point, were they to read it? The friends and neighbors of the deceased? The general city of Sacramento? (LOL I bet it goes without saying how the 85006 sees this issue LOL) Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Hell no Sacremento no. Too hot as you say. Move to Arizona because. Um? Well anyway, it isnt California.An interesting side note I'd like to make.

It is true that California overall is a good deal more liberal than Arizona is. The police in Arizona are certainly no angels BUT to give them a little bit of credit, they do seem to have the sense not to create high profile murder drama that California police seem to be so good at. I wonder what this is about, given that California is more liberal than Arizona? I have to admit as a liberal I don't understand this disconnect? Is it that human rights intimidate the police so they feel they have to lash out via murder to squelch minority populations? I ask you as a conservative, IL, as I can't come up with another answer as a liberal. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

It's going to be interesting to see how the Sacramento police department deals with the private autopsy that the Clark family had done. For seemingly the first time instead of a month's long "investigation" where everyone has a chance to get their stories straight, we now have a fairly damning story up front. Perhaps something useful we could do is separate investigations into potential police wrongdoing from the police themselves.Good idea, jp1. I support this idea whole-heartedly. Rob

[Alan]

I wonder what this is about, given that California is more liberal than Arizona? I have to admit as a liberal I don't understand this disconnect? Is it that human rights intimidate the police so they feel they have to lash out via murder to squelch minority populations? I suppose if you are operating under the liberal vs conservative premise you'd have to conclude that liberals have less respect for human life, and you may be right. But I think your premise is flawed.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I suppose if you are operating under the liberal vs conservative premise you'd have to conclude that liberals have less respect for human life, and you may be right. But I think your premise is flawed.Alan, this is not what I meant to imply. My question is why do police in a much more liberal state have so little regard for human life......California is more liberal than Arizona but here in Arizona when the police cross the line it's usually vicious unprovoked illegal and unconstitutional beatings/attacks - and not murder. For some reason the sociopathery seems to be ramped up to a higher notch in California and I just don't get it, I really don't. My only guess is that seeing more human rights in the general population angers sociopathic officers to the point that they believe murder is called for....I don't know that this is the case, to be fair, but I can't come up with another answer that makes any sense whatsoever. And I'd really like to know why the police in California cross that line so much more willingly than they do in Arizona, which is indeed a much more conservative state overall. Any ideas? Rob

[jp1]

Irony explained away in my above post.....I started this saga in Arizona ending out in Portland. I did move back to Phoenix five years later but that is another story. Rob

Hopefully i didnt come across as snarky, just amused that someone who lives in phoenix would complain about the weather in sacramento, which is quite similar most of the year.

Having graduated into the 1990 economy as well i totally get your reasons. After all, i certainly didnt move to NJ to take a job in Newark upon graduation because i thought it was an awesome place.

[ToomuchStuff]

As a taxpayer I think this is all fine. But then, that wasnt enough for the local loud voices demanding justice from police britality and they want an independant investigation by an elite board of law enforcement officials operating from the state. Apparently this is standard in some other states.



So are they wanting the St Louis police to go back under state control as they once were (and as KC still is)?

[iris lilies]

So are they wanting the St Louis police to go back under state control as they once were (and as KC still is)?
Hmm, I dont know what the Black Lives Matter crowd wants re state control.

[Gardenarian]

I didn't read all the comments. I'm not sure it's the justice system that is most at fault, though I'm sure it could be improved. I would like to see prisons at least try to do some rehabilitation. We're spending a fortune on prisons that seem to be training camps for even worse crimes. I'm opposed to the "3 strikes" system.

In my area I see that low wages, lack of any kind of safety net, the closing of psychiatric hospitals, the authoritarian school system, and even things like crappy food and housing as great contributors to crime and violence. I think these complicated social factors are the root of our problems.

Still, crime is at a lower rate now than in the past. I feel a heck of a lot safer on city streets than I did in the 1970s.