View Full Version : Contagious disease and immunizations
mschrisgo2
5-17-18, 10:45pm
Spurred by another thread in Families...
It seems to me that our society places way too much emphasis on immunizations as a means of disease control, to the point of ignoring other things that work very well, such as hand washing, and staying home when sick [Don't spread it, rest and get well].
One of several reasons, I retired from classroom teaching last year was because the district decided the way to deal with not having enough substitute teachers in January and February* every year was to require every classroom teacher to line up for flu shots (this year). I was determined Not to do it. The one time I got a flu shot I had a terrible allergic reaction that lasted about 2 weeks. Then, to add insult to injury, I got the flu, for the first time in several years AND I was the sickest I have ever been in my life!
Three years ago I taught in a school where the secretary was adamant that no child was coming in sick. And the entire staff helped, if a child began showing any symptoms, they were sent home. AND we all enforced hand washing- first thing in the morning, after recess, before lunch, after lunch. Yes, took a few minutes for 32 kids to wash their hands in the classroom- but NOBODY got sick, we did not have a "flu season" in our school of 1176 kids.
When our union reps brought forth our statistics, as the district was taking the mandatory teacher vaccination initiative to the school board, the reps were told not to speak! The district said, "That is a simplistic solution to a complex problem."
Whatever. It worked and was replicated in that school the following year.
But now the teachers are vaccinated against flu yearly if they want to keep their jobs.
But, and here is my point again- vaccination is only part of the solution, not The Solution.
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* Part of the "complex problem" was that they routinely used substitutes in the high schools until Jan. when they officially hired them, effectively taking them out of the Sub Pool. The statistics game- showed a lack of subs on paper, when really, they hired them to avoid being out of compliance with the state after 80 school days. Saved a lot of money, subs get paid $100/day = $18,000 a year if they work every single day; no benefits, not eligible to join the union, so no representation, can simply tell them not to come back the next day for any or no reason.
Research supports both flu shots and hand washing. Why not take advantage of both? More people died of the Spanish flu than during the entirety of WW1 in battle.
I dispute your initial premise.
Then again, I am the “clipboard guy” on our region’s Infectious Disease Response Team, responsible for handling Ebola and other fun things, while wearing cool suits. (This means I observe our operations in the hot zone like a hawk, and flag any violations of protocol, while never touching a patient myself...) So I am hampered in my understanding of such things by an excess of data and science.
I believe in the older proven vaccines, but the flu vaccine might only be 10% effective in any given year, so the handwashing is great.
flowerseverywhere
5-18-18, 7:31am
Washing hands is good, but what if someone is contagious but not symptomatic and coughs a few times?
Ultralight
5-18-18, 7:52am
I think in the coming 2 or 3 decades infectious disease if going to come back with wild vengeance.
I wash my hands and get my shots. All of them. I get that you had an allergic reaction, so for you the flu shot may be a no-no.
Few people work in such a tightly controlled environment! Most work in places where people do come in sick. People are often infectious before they show symptoms. I use public transit, and people who are clearly sick are coughing and sneezing all over the place. Many let rip with no attempt to contain the spray. Cashiers may be ill - and they’re handling the groceries! I get books from the library - what might they be carrying?
I’ve had pneumonia following flu - twice. Both times I hadn’t had the flu shot. I would prefer never to get pneumonia again. It hurts like hell and takes weeks to recover from. If the shot reduces my risk by 20%, on top of my standard practices, those odds are good enough for me.
In addition to the 10 to 70% effectiveness rate in prevening the flu in any given year, the flu vaccine diminish symptoms in the rest of the population where the shot wasn’t entirely effective. Anything that diminishes illness is good.
Teacher Terry
5-18-18, 12:31pm
I practice good hygiene but do not get the flu shot. When I was exposed to dried blood at work they wanted me to get the series of Hep b vaccines. I took one and had a bad reaction and said no to the rest. I had a friend with lifetime immune disorders from getting her first flu shot at 18. I was considering getting the shingles vaccine because my DH had shingles and it is very painful but I am allergic to one of the ingredients. I get the flu about once every 10 years. A good friend of mine got the flu this year after having the shot and was very sick. I got the flu after her and didn't get as sick despite being 10 years older and having chronic health conditions that she did not have.
At this point, I'm willing to leave it up to my (heretofore perfectly functional) natural immune system. Vaccines seem to be safe for most people (tough for you if you're the exception), but they're not the panaceas there touted to be.
iris lilies
5-18-18, 5:42pm
Once I got a flu shot because, hmmm, was it free at work? Or something. I just remember being shamed into it.
The only inoculation I would consider, well, other than tetnus, is the shingles one. Shingles scare me.
rosarugosa
5-18-18, 7:00pm
I'm in the process of getting the shingles vaccine (had shot 1 of 2). Conveniently provided at Costco, I was only 59 when I had that first shot and my insurance is covering in full.
iris lilies
5-18-18, 7:41pm
I'm in the process of getting the shingles vaccine (had shot 1 of 2). Conveniently provided at Costco, I was only 59 when I had that first shot and my insurance is covering in full.
Wait, is this shot in 2 stages?
freshstart
5-18-18, 8:54pm
it scares me that we are seeing a resurgence of once eradicated diseases such as mumps and measles because parents are choosing not to immunize
Wait, is this shot in 2 stages?
Shingles scares me too. I've known too many people that suffered terribly. And Yes. Two shots two to six months apart. I had the first one a month ago. Definitely caused soreness at the injection site and a minor fever for 24 hours or so, but apparently that's normal because it causes quite an aggressive immune response.
It never occurred to me to go to Costco. Maybe I'll do that for the second one.
Once I got a flu shot because, hmmm, was it free at work? Or something. I just remember being shamed into it.
The only inoculation I would consider, well, other than tetnus, is the shingles one. Shingles scare me.
Yeah--the much-vaunted herd is primed to yell "anti-vaxxer" at those who don't fall in line. I would consider certain ones, depending on my personal risk. I've never had chicken pox--and I've been exposed to it--so no shingles shot for me.
tennesseeborder
5-27-18, 8:20am
Go on the internet and research the many books by doctors on the dangers of, and alternatives to, vaccines.
Ultralight
5-27-18, 8:31am
An excellent alternative to the tetanus vaccine is lockjaw.
Ultralight
5-27-18, 8:35am
A great video on homeopathic medicine! Emergency Room doctors treat a car accident victim with a variety of herbals and alternative medicinals!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg2CQqMaU1I
iris lilies
5-27-18, 9:30am
A great video on homeopathic medicine! Emergency Room doctors treat a car accident victim with a variety of herbals and alternative medicinals!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg2CQqMaU1I
That was funny!
When we have had life threatening injuries we have gone to the ER and been treated aggressively and have been very grateful to allopathic medicine and the kind of help folks like Bae have been trained to give and so generously provide.
When we have been battling chronic conditions and seeking to prevent those kind of life threatening health crises, we have successfully used "alternative" remedies, including homeopathic ones, acupuncture, nutritional remedies, etc.
I don't find them at all contradictory, and am glad for both kinds of healing modalities.
Ultralight
5-27-18, 11:54am
Q: What do you call alternative medicine that works?
A: Medicine.
Ultralight
5-27-18, 11:55am
it scares me that we are seeing a resurgence of once eradicated diseases such as mumps and measles because parents are choosing not to immunize
The only ones who have to worry about MMR are the ones who don't vaccinate. The parents learn the hard way, the kids learn the even harder way.
early morning
5-27-18, 12:24pm
Well, not exactly. There are kids/adults who simply CAN'T vaccinate for various reasons - allergic reactions, medically fragile - who WERE protected by the near eradication of specific diseases because everyone else was vaccinated. With the return of those diseases, this population (and I have no idea of the numbers, I simply know someone in this position...) is very much at risk.
Ultralight
5-27-18, 12:29pm
Well, not exactly. There are kids/adults who simply CAN'T vaccinate for various reasons - allergic reactions, medically fragile - who WERE protected by the near eradication of specific diseases because everyone else was vaccinated. With the return of those diseases, this population (and I have no idea of the numbers, I simply know someone in this position...) is very much at risk.
I stand corrected. Thank you for reminding me of this. Herd immunity is quite important to certain populations. Duly noted.
Growing up in the 50s and 60s, it was a right of passage to get the measles and mumps. I had them both. Everyone had the little smallpox scar on their arm too from that shot. I don't recall children dying but I do remember my mother's fear of my brothers going sterile from the mumps.
A great video on homeopathic medicine!
Homeopathic medicine is about as effective as astrology, studies show!
https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/guidelines-publications/cam02
iris lilies
5-27-18, 1:30pm
Homeopathic medicine is about as effective as astrology, studies show!
https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/guidelines-publications/cam02
Dude, the practitioners in the video combined holistic medicine AND astrology for a very effective treatment!. Undortunately, their patient died. Didnt get him to their practice soon enough, I guess.
frugal-one
5-27-18, 5:13pm
A great video on homeopathic medicine! Emergency Room doctors treat a car accident victim with a variety of herbals and alternative medicinals!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cg2CQqMaU1I
I found this totally stupid. You OBVIOUSLY have no understanding of homeopathic medicine. There are times when it of great help.
ETA Many doctors here advocate using homeopathic arnica montana to minimize bruising and swelling. It also works AMAZINGLY well if you overdo (exercise, yard work or gardening). As with traditional medicine, some homeopathic remedies are not effective.
I found this totally stupid. You OBVIOUSLY have no understanding of homeopathic medicine. There are times when it of great help.
What is the theory behind the effectiveness of homeopathic medicine?
My understanding is that at the dilutions of the proposed effective ingredients, there may not be even a single molecule of the substance in the "medicine". The standard homeopathic 30C preparation of arnica montana would require giving two billion doses per second to six billion people for 4 billion years to deliver a single molecule of the original material to any patient.
Apparently the water in the dilution is supposed to assume some sort of magical property, though no scientific test we know of can measure this magic. And studies generally show no more than the placebo effect. (*)
So teach us, how does this stuff work?
(*) Real Arnica preparations are great for this purpose, by the way. The homeopathic version is however completely useless.
Ultralight
5-27-18, 6:15pm
Homeopathic medicine is about as effective as astrology, studies show!
https://www.nhmrc.gov.au/guidelines-publications/cam02
Science is for sinners!
Ultralight
5-27-18, 6:19pm
I find homeopathic medicine to be totally stupid. No comment on the folks who buy (and buy and buy and buy) into it.
It also works AMAZINGLY well if you overdo (exercise, yard work or gardening). As with traditional medicine, some homeopathic remedies are not effective.
If that is correct, and that herb works this well, then I give it about 5 minutes until Big Pharma is all over it.
If it doesn't work, then you can continue buying it from kooks in health food stores along with a bottle of Dr. Feel Good and a bottle of Snake Oil. Cures what ails ya!
Hasn't it been proven that a large percentage of a medicine's or treatment's effectiveness (homeopathic or conventional) is whether or not we believe it will help us? Placebo effect.
Hasn't it been proven that a large percentage of a medicine's or treatment's effectiveness (homeopathic or conventional) is whether or not we believe it will help us? Placebo effect.
Absolutely true. A hypothetical example of a pain drug that will be considered a success and approved by the FDA: two groups: one gets the real pill, one gets the placebo. After the trial is over it has been found that people taking the real pill got a 27% response, while people taking the placebo got a 23% response.
The mind is an amazing thing.
Absolutely true. A hypothetical example of a pain drug that will be considered a success and approved by the FDA: two groups: one gets the real pill, one gets the placebo. After the trial is over it has been found that people taking the real pill got a 27% response, while people taking the placebo got a 23% response.
The mind is an amazing thing.
Exactly! Since we are nothing but energy ourselves, I see nothing odd about the idea that forms of "energy medicine" such as Reiki or homeopathy may indeed have a scientific basis, speaking from the standpoint of quantum mechanics.
Great point.
I'm a big fan of the placebo effect--it's free, safe, and you don't need a prescription. No side effects and no genuflecting in front of doctors or insurance providers.
I wonder if a placebo can work the other way too - if we are not convinced a pill will work or will have bad side effects, it probably will. I had such a horrible reaction to Cipro once, that I am scared now to use prescription drugs. I am going to have to steel myself to get the Tdap vaccine soon.
A lot of people who have never heard of Cipro before they got "floxed" have been harmed by it.
But I do think the nocebo effect is real--especially when it's an authority figure in a white coat "pointing the bone."
frugal-one
5-28-18, 8:40pm
I find homeopathic medicine to be totally stupid. No comment on the folks who buy (and buy and buy and buy) into it.
If that is correct, and that herb works this well, then I give it about 5 minutes until Big Pharma is all over it.
If it doesn't work, then you can continue buying it from kooks in health food stores along with a bottle of Dr. Feel Good and a bottle of Snake Oil. Cures what ails ya!
Just got back from a very trying day .... family emergency. Will respond more later but want to say there are many herbs that big pharma is using. Also gave some homeopathic “medicines” to my dog, who by the way, was also helped. So, how can that be a placebo effect? Years ago I studied about various remedies and modalities and could explain them and actually gave presentations. I have quit studying and just use those that work for common complaints. I really don’t care what you think. Believe what you want. If you have an interest, go to the library and check out The Prescription for Nutritional Healing” by Phyllis Balch... the newest version. This book explains in detail.
Teacher Terry
5-29-18, 3:07pm
Pt, I am just curious do you need the vaccine to see the baby now but wouldn't need it if you waited until the babies were 6 months old? I lowered my cholesterol with a plant based pill recommended by my chiropractor by 50 pts in 1 month. Acupuncture has helped with headaches, back and neck pain. For years I was cold all the time and one treatment warmed me up. CBD biscuits in conjunction with a pain med is keeping my old dog going at 13 and he is big. We did the pain med alone for 3 years and then he got so he could hardly walk. So someone recommended the CBD. Interestingly enough it worked for 6 months and then stopped so now he is on 2 pain meds. A friend of mine recently was diagnosed with neck/throat cancer and surgery plus radiation would have taken his ability to speak, eat, hear and left him disfigured so he said no. His daughter convinced him to take CBD in a certain form and it needed THC also for months and his tumors shrunk so much that now he is able to have radiation only. Both kinds of medicine help.
I think they say you have to get the Tdap unless babies have had theirs which can't happen until they are 2-3 months.
Yeah--the much-vaunted herd is primed to yell "anti-vaxxer" at those who don't fall in line. I would consider certain ones, depending on my personal risk. I've never had chicken pox--and I've been exposed to it--so no shingles shot for me.
As someone who got chicken pox at age 30 (20ish years ago, about 2 years after the vaccine for chicken pox became available) I hope you've had the chicken pox vaccine. By far I've never been sicker. And to be able to not have to worry about ever getting shingles would have been awesome. But no, I'll be going for the second shingles shot in a couple of weeks because I hadn't heard that there was a chicken pox vaccine until after it was too late.
I lowered my cholesterol with a plant based pill recommended by my chiropractor by 50 pts in 1 month. .
Teacher Terry, will you say more about this plant based pill that helps lower cholesterol? Thanks.
As someone who got chicken pox at age 30 (20ish years ago, about 2 years after the vaccine for chicken pox became available) I hope you've had the chicken pox vaccine. By far I've never been sicker. And to be able to not have to worry about ever getting shingles would have been awesome. But no, I'll be going for the second shingles shot in a couple of weeks because I hadn't heard that there was a chicken pox vaccine until after it was too late.
I had chicken pox. I had shingles. 1 in 3 people who get shingles get it again. I’m getting the vaccine! Shingles - it felt as if I had nests of electric eels eating me from inside. To say it hurts us an understatement. Throw in constant electric shock sensations, insomnia for the duration, and muscle twitches.
Lead me to the person with the ampoules and the needle!
Yay!
We have a declared state of emergency in Washington State because of....wait for it... measles!
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/26/health/washington-state-measles-state-of-emergency/index.html
Our local anti-vaxxers are out in force too today.
I'm glad all new construction is ADA-compliant, we'll need that when polio starts coming back.
Teacher Terry
1-28-19, 4:04pm
Children need their vaccines unless medically contraindicated. How are so many kids getting exceptions and allowed to go to school?
iris lilies
1-28-19, 4:13pm
My own household is virus ridden with a resperitory illness. In early January were enclosed in a hot farmhouse with 40 people and numerous small germ factories toddling around, and we got a double dose of the thing. First few days it followed a normal path and then it reinfected us for a second round.
I am washing everything that can be washed in hot cycles—dishes, bedding, clothing, hair.
This is, of course a minor thing in the world of infectious diseases and I am sorry for anyone who cannot take innoculations but becomes ill due to the lack of herd protection these days. They are in danger.
Teacher Terry, will you say more about this plant based pill that helps lower cholesterol
I took the pill Terry did with no impact. In my case, it's not my diet (where a cholesterol remover could be helpful), it's that my liver manufactures too much.
Teacher Terry
1-28-19, 7:43pm
Herb, that’s a bummer. Actually I don’t care about my cholesterol numbers because studies only find them helpful for a select group of men. But it got my doctor off my back.
Yay!
We have a declared state of emergency in Washington State because of....wait for it... measles!
https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/26/health/washington-state-measles-state-of-emergency/index.html
Our local anti-vaxxers are out in force too today.
I'm glad all new construction is ADA-compliant, we'll need that when polio starts coming back.
Can't remember if I mentioned this before, but Maricopa County where I live has now lost herd immunity.
https://www.azfamily.com/archives/as-vaccination-rates-drop-maricopa-county-schools-lose-herd-immunity/article_f53e8c0d-629f-54b1-b522-fbb72906d26c.html
Home to 4.3 million people and one of the country's busiest airports. Measles, whooping cough, and polio here we come.
I saw this. My oldest cannot get the pertussis vaccine for medical reasons and it is scary. When she was little we lived in Boulder CO, the home of anti-vax. Whooping cough went through town a couple times and I kept her away from other kids. Honestly one of the reasons we homeschooled for a few years was that, the severe excema and peanut allergy.
My MIL had a mild case of polio when she was young and an impact on her health for life. People have not had to deal with death and disability from these diseases and it shows. Meanwhile they put everyone at risk!
When I had the measles (I'm a survivor! :~) ) the very worst thing was that I couldn't read (it might damage my eyes!). Since I was then, and am now, accustomed to spending nearly every waking moment focused on the printed page, (or now screen), I was truly miserable. Two weeks!
I remember having German Measles and lying there in my parents' darkened room waiting for the doctor to come visit. They made housecalls then.
I also remember the whole town walking down to the school and lining up for the polio vaccine on sugar cubes. We were all so grateful; everyone knew someone who had suffered with polio, and the vaccine seemed like an amazing blessing.
I recall the story from many years ago of an elementary school teacher. She was newly pregnant and had a student who came to class with German measles. He infected her and her baby was born with severe brain damage.
My point is that those who decide against vaccination don't seem willing to admit how much they are putting others in danger, e.g., pregnant women, infants, the chronically ill, and elderly who are most vulnerable to adverse affects of these "mild" diseases.
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