Teach Your Children

[LDAHL]

I normally don’t read Slate, but I was cooling my heels in a waiting room this morning and was struck by a letter to an advice column. The father of a bright and accomplished 18 year old (aren’t they all?) was concerned about his son’s desire to enlist in the Army, and wanted advice on how to dissuade him.

My first reaction was “what a jerk”. But then my much wiser wife asked me what my reaction would be if my daughter wanted to major in one of those highly practical arts or humanities or anything with “studies” in the title.

I’m a few years away from facing such a situation, but it did start me thinking. Better to support the kid despite the misgivings of my obviously superior judgement? Refuse to kick in for tuition to provide a foretaste of a life of penury? Recall my own hardheadedness at that age and simply hope for the best. Parenting is hard.

[frugal-one]

I don’t see the correlation. Possibly die or get a liberal arts degree?

[Chicken lady]

It’s about values.

my kids were raised military proof - they can’t take orders.

[iris lilies]

I don’t see the correlation. Possibly die or get a liberal arts degree?
Hahaha, ok, you made me laugh.

But back to the serious bizness of parenting: ldahl, sorry, I got nothing for ya. One thing too many people dont seem to understand is that creative work can go on outside of a job. So MANY people say to me “you should be a florist,” as though

1) that is actually a creative endeavor (it largely is not )

and

2) i want to stand on my feet for hours making dull standard floral designs for a pittance of wage

when instead, I can do work I enjoy and still have hobbies involving flowers and floral designs, truly creative experiences.

[iris lilies]

It’s about values.

my kids were raised military proof - they can’t take orders.

This also made me laugh.

[LDAHL]

I don’t see the correlation. Possibly die or get a liberal arts degree?

Both were cases of actions a parent might have strong feelings of disapproval for. “Possibly die” might also apply to clerking in a convenience store or firefighting. A liberal arts career might result in a lifetime of disappointment, especially at the graduate level.

Others might have a problem with their kid taking holy orders, buying more house than they can afford or becoming a professional gamer or house flipper or day trader or exotic dancer.

My point wasn’t about any particular choice.

[Teacher Terry]

When my step son wanted to quit school at 17, join the national guard, get a GED I was against it. Well at age 28 he has 11years full time in the service, a college degree and is off in a week to 2 years of navigating school. He will be a officer by August. I am so proud of him. We raised him during the teen years and it was tough. I raised my kids to follow orders unless it was something horrible obviously. I think it is a skill that will help anyone succeed in the world.

[JaneV2.0]

We don't all have to be engineers; there are jobs for technical writers and editors, information specialists (librarians), localization specialists, art therapists, on and on. If I had to do it over again I would broaden my skills and probably still be in college--courses are so much more interesting now.

[SteveinMN]

it did start me thinking. Better to support the kid despite the misgivings of my obviously superior judgement? Refuse to kick in for tuition to provide a foretaste of a life of penury? Recall my own hardheadedness at that age and simply hope for the best. Parenting is hard.
What if, instead of the armed forces or a degree in philosophy, the object of desire was a romantically-inclined member of the opposite sex (assuming hetero tendencies here)? If your kid were really into someone you thought was not "good for them", would you "support the kid despite the misgivings of my obviously superior judgement?" Or refuse to enable the relationship with money/access/transportation, etc.? Or recall how you were at that age?

I think the same rules apply: warning them away out of judgement may not have the desired effect. It is well documented that "forbidding" relationships only seems to serve to encourage them. And most of us (I think) remember how well we took such advice back in our day. I think you support your kid in his/her own exploration unless it's pretty obvious that the next step is really threatening (e.g., new boyfriend has demonstrated anger issues, etc.).

Full disclosure: I've never had to parent a kid through the teenage/early adult years. But I've known plenty of people who did. Some did it successfully; other's didn't. The successful ones parented using a net.

[Tammy]

As far as college, we provided a free place to eat and live (or a dorm room and meal plan, but they all chose to live at home and commute) and a car with paid for insurance and gas, and they worked/got scholarships to cover tuition and books. I think because they had some skin in the game they were a little more careful with managing their whims against reality.

None of the 3 wanted to join the military.

One of them married at age 19.

One of them moved to Canada to live with her SO whom she met online.

We supported all their decisions and no harm came to any of them. The two marriages are doing well 13 years later. Yes, 2 of our kids got married in the same year, 3 months apart.

One of our kids made a living by gambling full time for about 5 years. He cane away from that experience with a net worth of about 40,000 at age 28 or so. Now he works a regular job for the government.

We supported his decision as well.

I’m convinced that there is little reason to try to control your grown kids decisions. And kids are basically grown by age 15-18. It’s counterproductive to oppose them. Very few decisions are evil. Almost all are simply individual opinion.

(Edited to clarify - they either lived at home during college or lived in our subsidized condo at a greatly reduced rent to them - the idea being we provided some sort of housing. It took the “19 year old at marriage kid” almost a decade to come and go from school until eventually graduating with a bachelors in math.)

[bae]

I encouraged my super-genius daughter to apply to Annapolis, and she did in fairness give it due consideration.

[Simplemind]

I would have only worried if mine never left the basement or put down the game controller...…………….. (not exactly the truth since we don't have a basement and we rarely let him play video games but you get my drift)

[Teacher Terry]

Tammy I totally agree with you.

[ApatheticNoMore]

15-18 year olds are adults in some ways and not in others, they know their own minds and desires - maybe as well as they will decades hence. However, they don't know the world, and well that can make them pretty darn stupid in many ways since they may have no clue what they will be dealing with.

One thing my dad did was keep us out of the military, wise man there, whatever other flaws he might have had.

[Yppej]

I found the book Unequal Childhoods interesting reading. Social class impacts our parenting styles in terms of how much direction we give our children and what our expectations for them are.

[catherine]

I would have only worried if mine never left the basement or put down the game controller...…………….. (not exactly the truth since we don't have a basement and we rarely let him play video games but you get my drift)

That's the way I see it.

I've tended to take the parental advice of Kahlil Gibran:


Your children are not your children.
They are the sons and daughters of Life's longing for itself.
They come through you but not from you,
And though they are with you yet they belong not to you.

You may strive to be like them,
but seek not to make them like you.
For life goes not backward nor tarries with yesterday.


One of the things I love about DH is that he is kind of a wild, gregarious guy who loves theatre and cries every day--not the kind of guy you would expect to see in the military. But one day when he was 18 he sensed he was headed down the wrong path in life and he walked into a Marine recruiting station and signed up. No forethought--just instinct. His mother went nuts--she was a widow with a young son who DH had helped to raise. He now considers it one of his greatest achievements, and although he only enlisted for 2 years, he still wears his USMC hat every day. I have no doubt it made him a better man.

I'd lie if I didn't say that my kids' choices didn't keep me up at night--my son dropping out of high school; my daughter living in some very bad neighborhoods so she could afford the low pay she got from the food non-profit she worked for; my son deciding to pursue music rather than go to college... but it's their lives, and they've done just fine without me. I am not always the best captain of my own ship--never mind trying to steer the lives of people with their own internal compasses that I am not privy to.

[Chicken lady]

My youngest had a phone interview yesterday. She was telling me about it at dinner, and she said “she asked me where I saw myself in five years, and all I could think was ‘five years?! Omg, I just want to get out of my parents’ house!’ ”

[Teacher Terry]

Too funny CL. I never told my adult kids once 18 what to do. We all have our own lives to live. The military has saved many young men and helped them grow up. It has also damaged others through war trauma. I also see the trades as a good option for many. There is no one path.

[ApatheticNoMore]

My youngest had a phone interview yesterday. She was telling me about it at dinner, and she said “she asked me where I saw myself in five years, and all I could think was ‘five years?! Omg, I just want to get out of my parents’ house!’ "

well she's young, but what you learn is you prepare canned answers for canned interview questions :~) Because uh very few of us at any age really know where we want to be in 5 years. And no, retired is never an acceptable answer no matter of age or truth.

[LDAHL]

I encouraged my super-genius daughter to apply to Annapolis, and she did in fairness give it due consideration.

We used to refer to Academy grads as “ring-knockers”, because so many of them ostentatiously displayed their class rings in an effort to impress.

[Chicken lady]

Anm - she said she hoped to have the opportunity to broaden her skills and move into a mentor or leadership role.

[ApatheticNoMore]

mentor or leadership role is good. Just a leadership role or saying you want to move up in the company is dangerous I think, as many jobs are not being hired for with any intention of you moving anywhere, and so you don't want to show any ambition beyond doing excellent at the job you are interviewing for.

[SteveinMN]

many jobs are not being hired for with any intention of you moving anywhere, and so you don't want to show any ambition beyond doing excellent at the job you are interviewing for.
I think that depends on the interviewer. I once had a hiring manager tell me he viewed with suspicion anyone who didn't move around every couple of years in his/her career (which he had done; MHO is he was no great shakes at his job). I, on the other hand, having been in the business far longer than him, have seen the difference between six years' experience and two years of experience three times. There is value to staying in a position long enough to master it and make inroads rather than get to competency and then move on. He didn't see it.

I've also seen how shabbily corporations treat the "plodders" -- the folks who keep their nose to the grindstone and get the work done. They can do fantastic work; they do not resist change; they do not seek publicity for their role. They just like what they do, they're Steady Eddies at it, and they're smart enough to see the funnel that leads to the top positions and the noose that goes around the middle managers and to decide that's not for them. Those folks get abused. :(

[Gardenarian]

My Dd is 19 (just) and, while she respects my opinion, she would be shocked if dh or I tried to meddle in her affairs.

Despite having a trust fund, she is working 30 hours per week while attending college full time (dual major, Biology and Environmental Policy - I don't know if what you do as an undergrad has much to do with future life. It didn't for me.) The college is a 5 minute walk from our house so she's been living at home.

She's looking for her own place and still refuses to use any of the money from her trust - she wants to feel truly independent, but that money is hers, and I do worry that she works too hard. But her grades are good and she's making a bit of a name for herself singing, so I guess she knows what she's doing.

Probably knowing she has a large safety net makes it easier for her to take risks.

She came out as gay a while ago, but has since become bi. Really doesn't matter to me; all her friends I've met have been smart, charming, hard workers, sweet kids.

Homeschooling made us a very close family, and also blurred the line between adult/child - we learned from each other (still do.)

I do have strong feelings about her 2 (small) tattoos, but nevermind.

[iris lilies]

My Dd is 19 (just) and, while she respects my opinion, she would be shocked if dh or I tried to meddle in her affairs.

Despite having a trust fund, she is working 30 hours per week while attending college full time (dual major, Biology and Environmental Policy - I don't know if what you do as an undergrad has much to do with future life. It didn't for me.) The college is a 5 minute walk from our house so she's been living at home.

She's looking for her own place and still refuses to use any of the money from her trust - she wants to feel truly independent, but that money is hers, and I do worry that she works too hard. But her grades are good and she's making a bit of a name for herself singing, so I guess she knows what she's doing.

Probably knowing she has a large safety net makes it easier for her to take risks.

She came out as gay a while ago, but has since become bi. Really doesn't matter to me; all her friends I've met have been smart, charming, hard workers, sweet kids.

Homeschooling made us a very close family, and also blurred the line between adult/child - we learned from each other (still do.)


I do have strong feelings about her 2 (small) tattoos, but nevermind.

awwww, this kid sounds great! So involved in many things, and successful at them!

Way to go, mom! You had a hand in that!

[iris lilies]

I think that depends on the interviewer. I once had a hiring manager tell me he viewed with suspicion anyone who didn't move around every couple of years in his/her career (which he had done; MHO is he was no great shakes at his job). I, on the other hand, having been in the business far longer than him, have seen the difference between six years' experience and two years of experience three times. There is value to staying in a position long enough to master it and make inroads rather than get to competency and then move on. He didn't see it.

I've also seen how shabbily corporations treat the "plodders" -- the folks who keep their nose to the grindstone and get the work done. They can do fantastic work; they do not resist change; they do not seek publicity for their role. They just like what they do, they're Steady Eddies at it, and they're smart enough to see the funnel that leads to the top positions and the noose that goes around the middle managers and to decide that's not for them. Those folks get abused. :(
I had a couple of Steady Eddies at my job and when they spoke up about something, I listened and I made sure upper echelons knew their opinion. Even if they werent necessarily right, theirs was a valued opinion, and I told them so.

I also impressed on them that their single opinion was worth more to me than the people who came into my office to complain about somethings saying “and other people think so, too.” Those who fancied themselves representatives of others actually lost credibility with me since they looked as though they were shoring up their opinions by adding faceless supporters.

[SteveinMN]

Those who fancied themselves representatives of others actually lost credibility with me since they looked as though they were shoring up their opinions by adding faceless supporters.
Good on ya!

I've seen more than my share of (bad) policy made by people who extrapolated opinions from n=1 (there was no n=2). >8)