View Full Version : Pizza delivery man. What don’t I understand?
flowerseverywhere
6-10-18, 7:56am
So guy delivers pizza to military base. No license and ends up being in ICE custody for ignoring previous deportation order from 2010. In the meantime has kids and is working. NYC judge blocks deportation. Did the guard do the right thing to report? What about the judge ? Mind you each case like this cost taxpayer money that could be going to schools or infrastructure.
Whether you love or hate Trump I believe this is one of the big issues that got him elected
Why reward someone who did not obey a previous deportation order? Others that obeyed the order to deport are not being rewarded. Why did a pizza delivery place not be sure he had a license?
Legal immigration can be a very good thing for a country. But even being far more liberal than many posters here I am just not getting this case.
There are 65,000,000 refugees worldwide. Do we just help people who sneak in illegally since we cannot help everyone.
There are fake IDs out there, so the employer should check with the registry to make sure any "license" is valid.
Yes, the guard did the right thing. And if the judge is thinking of the children I can understand that decision.
The illegal was willing to risk it for a better life, which depending where he's from (gang infested Central America?) I might have done too. Msybe he shouldn't have had kids, but that is a strong human desire.
I'm not seeing any bad guys here, just fallible humans.
Crack down on criminals entering the country, deport or jail those who commit crimes while here. Issue green cards to everyone else. As I pointed out in an earlier post, our population is declining--and undocumented immigrants are the very least of our problems. The cruelty of our government and its gestapo arm, ICE, is disgusting.
Williamsmith
6-10-18, 9:06am
Those pizza delivery jobs are much too valuable to be squandered on illegals. No wonder grandma can’t find a job.
Teacher Terry
6-10-18, 10:02am
The judge did the right thing and I am sickened that we are separating kids from parents and putting them in cages.
It seems more or less impossible to discuss illegal immigration rationally in this country. Some of us can't even bring themselves to say the words.
Perhaps because of our history and relative attractiveness, immigration management, much like public education, seems to be one of those things we can't do as well as other countries no matter how many resources we commit to it.
Teacher Terry
6-10-18, 10:53am
Australia grants special work visas to do jobs the locals don’t want to do and no need for people to sneak in.
Australia grants special work visas to do jobs the locals don’t want to do and no need for people to sneak in.
Maybe easier for them as they do not share a land border with any other country.
Australia grants special work visas to do jobs the locals don’t want to do and no need for people to sneak in.
That seems like the rational approach, doesn't it.
Teacher Terry
6-10-18, 1:06pm
My half sister lives there and it works great. Also after a number of years they are eligible for citizenship.
ApatheticNoMore
6-10-18, 1:07pm
Those pizza delivery jobs are much too valuable to be squandered on illegals. No wonder grandma can’t find a job.
certainly when people said the hypothetical (or not) unemployed waiter should work fast food temporarily I thought ... um the demographics of the people doing fast food (here anyway) uh it's immigrants and I don't know how many are legal or not, so I'm not sure it's that easy to get otherwise ...
flowerseverywhere
6-10-18, 1:10pm
Australia grants special work visas to do jobs the locals don’t want to do and no need for people to sneak in.
so does the US
https://www.thebalancecareers.com/working-in-usa-guidelines-2064270
plus if you arrive by boat, even seeking asylum you face a lifetime visa ban
https://www.thebalancecareers.com/working-in-usa-guidelines-2064270
there is no birthright citizenship
ApatheticNoMore
6-10-18, 1:15pm
only doing the jobs locals don't want to do would be decreased immigration, besides although some things may have always been done by immigrants one might ask why locals wanted to do certain jobs 20-30 years ago (like construction) and now suddenly don't. Have they all just become too soft? All of the them? Likely story.
flowerseverywhere
6-10-18, 1:20pm
Austria also has proposals to limit welfare unless you learn german. Plus some interesting info on Turkey
https://ahvalnews.com/austria/austria-looking-cut-benefits-non-german-speaking-foreigners-refugees
Many countries are placing restrictions on women face coverings
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hijab_by_country
in Canada many asylum seekers are being deported
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2018/06/08/canada-warns-immigrants-u-s-heading-north-border/683297002/
there is a worldwide movement going on.
there is a worldwide movement going on.
I don't know that it's a movement, that would imply that sovereign nations just recently developed immigration policies and enforcements. I've never understood why anyone would think that every nation has open borders except the US, and we only do because we're racists.
Teacher Terry
6-10-18, 2:08pm
Australia’s system is much different than ours and much easier to go there to work. I can’t remember the specifics and too sick to look it up.
only doing the jobs locals don't want to do would be decreased immigration, besides although some things may have always been done by immigrants one might ask why locals wanted to do certain jobs 20-30 years ago (like construction) and now suddenly don't. Have they all just become too soft? All of the them? Likely story.
If it is indeed the case that US citizens no longer want to do construction jobs it's probably for the same reason they don't want to pick fruit. The employers figured out that they could cut the pay below what an american is willing to do the work for and still get the work done.
Until we impose meaningful penalties on employers who hire undocumented workers the problem isn't going to be resolved. Perhaps we need a law that if an employer is found to have an undocumented worker on their payroll they need to then sponsor them for a green card.
flowerseverywhere
6-10-18, 3:47pm
I don't know that it's a movement, that would imply that sovereign nations just recently developed immigration policies and enforcements. I've never understood why anyone would think that every nation has open borders except the US, and we only do because we're racists.
honestly many of the statements Trump has made were very racist. If he would put the tweet machine down and not speak off the cuff I swear his approval rating would be Far above the 50th percentile. as these individual stories are being shown by the mainstream media it is often not the case that racism is the issue. It is more about violating laws and the question of assimilating into a very different culture and customs. I for one understand much more clearly what the message is. I don’t agree with all of it but Jp1’s comment about wages is one of them. Many people that are native born are really struggling to get ahead no matter how hard they try. Reaching a call center from an American company where you cannot understand whom you are talking to, or having to listen to a long message in Spanish before making an MD appointment adds to people’s concerns and frustrations. One of my kids on Election Day walked by a polling center and there was a sign outside the building in about six different languages. Should you at least know the language before you can vote? And I know many teachers and school volunteers who have been very frustrated with kids being plopped into their class not knowing a word of English, and even after years of being in the US their parents not knowing basic English communication. So all of these issues, plus the isolated crime incidents got us here
I don’t think I will ever like Trump. He really is a mean bully that would have been fired in most other jobs. But I am seeing more and more why he got elected.
I am watching a story on this now. Pablo is from Ecuador. I have a friend who came here legally from there and will not go back to visit because he would be arrested for draft dodging. It does not appear this is a case of someone coming here fearing for his life.
honestly many of the statements Trump has made were very racist. If he would put the tweet machine down and not speak off the cuff I swear his approval rating would be Far above the 50th percentile. as these individual stories are being shown by the mainstream media it is often not the case that racism is the issue. It is more about violating laws and the question of assimilating into a very different culture and customs. You can't speak of immigration policy as if they were all created by Trump. The Federal Government took control of immigration policies from the states over 200 years ago and started really tamping down on legal immigration over 50 years ago when the Feds became enamored with creating a welfare state and needed to control just how many immigrants they could support. If we are a nation of representative government and the rule of law, we can't treat immigration as a feel good solution available to the entire population of the world and we shouldn't be surprised when laws are enforced.
flowerseverywhere
6-10-18, 5:55pm
You can't speak of immigration policy as if they were all created by Trump. The Federal Government took control of immigration policies from the states over 200 years ago and started really tamping down on legal immigration over 50 years ago when the Feds became enamored with creating a welfare state and needed to control just how many immigrants they could support. If we are a nation of representative government and the rule of law, we can't treat immigration as a feel good solution available to the entire population of the world and we shouldn't be surprised when laws are enforced.
I agree with you but Trump is unique in how he has named called and implied, or sometimes outright said illegals are rapists, murderers, M13 members or Muslim terrorists. It does seem like many people cry unfair as when this person ignored a deportation order. But are we a nation of laws or not?
But are we a nation of laws or not?
Well, we have changed our focus from judicial justice to social justice in many cases but I'm holding out hope we'll reverse ourselves before too much more damage is done.
Well, we have changed our focus from judicial justice to social justice in many cases but I'm holding out hope we'll reverse ourselves before too much more damage is done.
Not as long as we have a president who thinks he's literally above the law.
Not as long as we have a president who thinks he's literally above the law.In some relatively unimportant ways, he is, as have previous presidents. I suspect though that we'll sort all that out soon enough without lasting harm to anything important. Presidents come and go, we survived Jimmy Carter and we'll survive Trump.
As I see it T is just encouraging a strict enforcement of a law that is on the books but has been ignored or lax enforcement for years or decades (thus the word illegal). I could spread any blame that is to be placed as much on our congressional representatives who have failed to replace or improve the laws as times and public attitudes have changed. As liberal as I may be there seems to be some sort of majority that has elected T and our other officials and immigration reform has been part of their base platform. I cannot blame a guard at a military base for reporting a legal violation any more than blaming the rest of the people involved in the decision making processes.
flowerseverywhere
6-10-18, 8:30pm
Rogar, all true
latest news from Europe
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-44432056
ship not being allowed to dock in Italy with 629Human being on board.
Such an awful world we we live in where people flee their homelands, some for very good reasons but they have nowhere to go.
In some relatively unimportant ways, he is, as have previous presidents. I suspect though that we'll sort all that out soon enough without lasting harm to anything important. Presidents come and go, we survived Jimmy Carter and we'll survive Trump.
So you think loudly announcing to the world that he could pardon himself is relatively unimportant?
Personally i think one of the worst things that ever happened to this country was the day Ford pardoned Nixon. The horrible precedent that set will forever be a stain on the country.
So you think loudly announcing to the world that he could pardon himself is relatively unimportant?
Saying something is different than doing something, and the concept has never really been tested so there's arguments to be made pro and con. If/when he tries, that's when it will all be sorted out.
flowerseverywhere
6-10-18, 10:01pm
Saying something is different than doing something, and the concept has never really been tested so there's arguments to be made pro and con. If/when he tries, that's when it will all be sorted out.
if Hillary said something like that your head would be spinning around, your hair would be bursting into flames and the screech would be heard on the moon. Just sayin’ you wouldn’t be saying it would all be sorted out. Seriously.
Just sayin’ you wouldn’t be saying it would all be sorted out. Seriously.
I'm not your enemy, but you don't know that.
Saying something is different than doing something, and the concept has never really been tested so there's arguments to be made pro and con. If/when he tries, that's when it will all be sorted out.
I appreciate your trust that it will all work out. Personally i worry that the republican politicians will hesitate to fulfill their promised oath to support the constitution considering the fact that 33% of the voters seem willing to believe anything the president says. So far they have seened to be sjirting the conversation. Maybe you’re right that suddenly they’ll take responsibility.
flowerseverywhere
6-11-18, 8:03am
I'm not your enemy, but you don't know that.
i don’t think you are my enemy at all. I do think it will all work out for some people but not for others. It certainly isn’t working out as planned for parents who have lost their children in school shootings, or from people who have lost or face skyrocketing premiums in their healthcare (where is that pesky replacement to the ACA we have been hearing about for what 9 years now). Or for our allies (and ultimately US citizens) who will at least think twice about entering any alliances and deals with us. Or for our raging opioid crisis and homelessness. Or for people who have no pensions and regardless of how hard they try will not be able to prevent poverty in old age. It certainly is not working out well for a sizable number of good and honest hardworking people and I see no hope on the horizon that it will. I see few solutions being offered.
Teacher Terry
6-11-18, 10:42am
I totally agree Flowers. Alan, just because you disagree with someone doesn’t make them your enemy.
I totally agree Flowers. Alan, just because you disagree with someone doesn’t make them your enemy.
Terry, I agree completely, and I wish we could all remember this and treat each other with civility and respect here. We can discuss things without resorting to rudeness, and it is good to have a place where we can communicate with civility.
iris lilies
6-11-18, 11:57am
Terry, I agree completely, and I wish we could all remember this and treat each other with civility and respect here. We can discuss things without resorting to rudeness, and it is good to have a place where we can communicate with civility.
Was Alan rude in his last comment? I dont see it.
iris lilies
6-11-18, 12:19pm
That seems like the rational approach, doesn't it.
you do know that this country, the one you live in, does that as well, right?
Teacher Terry
6-11-18, 12:27pm
No Alan was not rude. I think she was talking about the general public.
you do know that this country, the one you live in, does that as well, right?
Green cards aren't easy to get and Trump has promised to make them even more difficult. I guess not enough Norwegians were applying.
https://abcnews.go.com/Business/story?id=87996&page=1
I think it's time we thanked France for the sentiment and retired the Statue of Liberty--it's clearly no longer relevant.
Teacher Terry
6-11-18, 1:34pm
Actually Jane she is sobbing.
Actually Jane she is sobbing.
She's not the only one.
I totally agree Flowers. Alan, just because you disagree with someone doesn’t make them your enemy.
It's not the disagreement, it's the constant references to what I think or believe or would do. You can tell what someone thinks of you by the way they attribute qualities to you.
I think it's time we thanked France for the sentiment and retired the Statue of Liberty--it's clearly no longer relevant.The Statue of Liberty represents America's independence from Great Britain and will always be relevant. I think you mean The New Colossus, a poem written to raise money for a new pedestal and then placed on the pedestal nearly 20 years later. That probably should be retired as it is now a sentiment no nation can afford.
Teacher Terry
6-11-18, 3:34pm
That's a giant leap Alan. I know a few people very close to me that voted for him. One is a old woman that I am guessing couldn't vote for a woman. The few people who I know aren't racist although I think many of his supporters are. I think some people blindly vote their party ticket no matter who is on it. Some educated people that aren't racist and probably could vote for a woman voted for him too. Who knows why? However, I think a big percentage of his voters were either racist, don't want a woman in power or uneducated and hoping for a miracle worker to bring jobs back that are long gone. Everyone that voted for him have their reasons and it doesn't make all of them terrible people.
I was just on a several week driving tour of mostly Trump-voting states. Inhabited by the "deplorables".
Instead of filling up the car and dining at freeway interchanges, we took the time to drive into small towns and villages to eat at local mom+pop places, and chat up the locals.
My takeaway is that it would be a grave mistake to cast them as racist, sexist, uneducated, unemployed bumkins who would have voted for Clinton if only they were "woke".
Teacher Terry
6-11-18, 3:48pm
Many are hard core republicans who won't deviant from their party. Also didn't I say not everyone????
Many are hard core republicans who won't deviant from their party. Also didn't I say not everyone????
You said "a big percentage". "Not everyone" is a common rhetorical technique, of course....
I didn't, by the way, get the sense that many of the folks I talked to were "hard core" members of any particular party. Convenient though that story might be.
What Trump virtues did they perceive that the majority of voters is blind to? Kindness, thoughtfulness, an understanding of the constitution? Respect for the rule of law? Desire to represent all the people of the country? Wide-ranging intelligence, good character and moral values, desire for peace in our time? Civility? Because I don't see anything good in the man inhabiting the White House. Nothing at all. He's exhibited a willingness to service the Republicans' desire for deregulation and to slash taxes for corporations and the wealthy among us...Is that it?
ETA: I thought of one thing--he's unwaveringly true to his principles of duplicity, greed, and self-aggrandizement. I suppose consistency (even while being inconsistent) is a good thing.
That's a giant leap Alan. I know a few people very close to me that voted for him. One is a old woman that I am guessing couldn't vote for a woman. The few people who I know aren't racist although I think many of his supporters are. I think some people blindly vote their party ticket no matter who is on it. Some educated people that aren't racist and probably could vote for a woman voted for him too. Who knows why? However, I think a big percentage of his voters were either racist, don't want a woman in power or uneducated and hoping for a miracle worker to bring jobs back that are long gone. Everyone that voted for him have their reasons and it doesn't make all of them terrible people.What leap is that? I don't think I mentioned Trump so I think it must have been made elsewhere.
ApatheticNoMore
6-11-18, 6:17pm
if they were unemployed, uneducated (or working poor or under-employed etc. etc.) they would be sympathetic if wrong*. If they are none of these things then scratch the sympathetic part (and we are just left with wrong).
* Trump is not helping any of these economic issues any
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