View Full Version : Depression, self talk, and asking for what you need
Chicken lady
6-16-18, 4:38pm
The depression got really bad this week. Last night dh came home from work, made me get out of bed and take a shower - as in actually pulled me by the hand and undressed me, watched me eat some healthy food, and took me out for a drive for some fresh air. I spent a lot of it crying.
i slept ten hours.
i’m doing better today. In part because I have worked really hard at not setting any goals for the day.
this morning, when I got up and looked at the mess of dishes in my house, the voice in my head started to tell me the story that starts with “this place is a disaster” and ends with “I am a failure as a human being.” And I stopped it. I said “no, new story. Dh and Dd have had mostly home cooked meals all week and they have done basically no dishwashing, so of course this place is a mess. I’m going to clear a space so I can do the milking, and then while the milk is filtering, i’ll help them out and run a load of dishes.” So I did that.
then when dh got home, he saw that I was “better” and suggested that in the interest of improving HIS mental health, I clear up the mess on the kitchen so he could fix some lunch. I got angry. Unsatisfactory but temporarily functional resolution. I need to work on communicating with him.
as far as “to do”s, I have done the things that are critical - like feeding the livestock. Also, heartdaughter sent me the address for heartgrandson at camp next week, and I thought “I will just write him a letter now and get it in the mail.” So I did that without making it a list thing.
and this afternoon Dd was making party favors and I gathered up the materials for her and then sat down and joined her.
she is having a joint graduation celebration with her best friend. The other family is hosting. Dd went over this morning to help mow and set up tables. She also did the shopping. I helped make the party favors and dh and I are paying for half the food and we got a photo cake. I also put together props for the “photo booth” over a month ago. I need to tell myself, and believe, that that is perfectly fine.
my mother did parties like Martha Stewart meets Disneyland. Alternately, my father planned to not be home. I am a perfectly good parent.
Yes you are a good parent. Your kids are adults, right? So you raised them up successfully, and now they are the energetic generation and you should get to be the relaxing generation.
Challenging the automatic negative self-talk and recasting the narrative is a very helpful thing to do!
My wife, who has experienced major depression for most of her adult life, says it is essential to her sanity and ability to function.
I know what you tell yourself has more impact than what "strangers" tell you, but I see you as an extremely competent, super hard-working, compassionate human being. FWIW.
Chicken lady....((((Hugs))))
Sad Eyed Lady
6-16-18, 7:03pm
Chicken lady....((((Hugs))))
Me too.
I find I am my own worst critic, upholding expectations for myself that no one else (love me or don't know I exist) holds. Hang in there, cl. You are doing a good job.
rosarugosa
6-16-18, 8:34pm
Seriously, CL - you get more done in a day than most get done in a week! Hugs from me too. My sister struggles with depression and it is such a hideous beast. Also painful to watch helplessly on the sidelines. :(
Teacher Terry
6-16-18, 8:44pm
I am amazed at how hard you work. You are too hard on yourself. Hugs:))
Chicken lady
6-17-18, 12:56pm
Today I am more functional than yesterday - I slept late and still finished all the morning chores before noon. (Yesterday it was 3pm)
i ran a load load of dishes.
i’m drinking Lots of water.
my weight is trending in the wrong direction, which is bad for both my self esteem and knees, but today is not the day to take that in hand. Dd made pancakes for breakfast, and I just enjoyed them. Fruit and nuts for lunch, and Dd is also making dinner - vegetarian, for me, which kind of surprised me because I figured she was cooking for Father’s Day? I guess he got pancakes.
i am going to for three loads of laundry. And shower. And ask dh if he will help me fix the wall in the basement, so I can finish that and put my shelf up. Maybe another load of dishes.
Good for you, in my recent breakdown I have found that everyone has either had a serious issue at some point or has been close to someone who has. It is much more common than we often know.
I focus on eating meals, sleeping at regular times, and bathing.
I find I am my own worst critic, upholding expectations for myself that no one else (love me or don't know I exist) holds. Hang in there, cl. You are doing a good job.
This! Yes, you are doing good. ((hug))
Chicken lady
6-18-18, 10:33am
I am doing really good this morning (see hobbies and crafts)
someone bought some of my pottery as a gift. And the giftee liked it enough to think of me when she saw a sales opportunity!
i am a potter. I am creative. I am talented. (I don’t actually believe all of that, but i’m going to keep saying it anyway.)
Teacher Terry
6-18-18, 10:42am
CL: it is all true. I admire people that are creative as I am not.
Cl, saying it does make it true! Self talk is vital and positive self talk helps tremendously. I find your tasks overwhelming....and am amazed at all you accomplish.
i am a potter. I am creative. I am talented. (I don’t actually believe all of that, but i’m going to keep saying it anyway.)
Believe it because it's true. That you just sold some work proves it. Are you the only potter on the planet -- or even in your own town? Probably not. Is your work being showcased in art museums? Maybe not. Yet. Are you talented? You just sold pottery to someone who spent discretionary money because he likes its esthetic value. That should carry some weight with you.
As a photographer I am not Ansel Adams or a male Annie Leibovitz. But I take a pretty good picture that doesn’t look like every other photograph other men and women with cameras have taken of similar subjects. I have a few images which have been seen by thousands of people (literally; no exact count but I know where those images were displayed and maybe tens of thousands is not a bad estimate for some of them.) Maybe my name isn't a household name in more than about six households, but I am a photographer.
Don't sell yourself short.
Chicken lady
6-18-18, 9:31pm
Thank you.
Chicken lady
6-19-18, 7:45pm
I worked really hard yesterday to accomplish things. I struggled to communicate the feedback I need. It was hard. And ineffective.
today I was draggy, but I think I can get to bed early - I hope I can sleep, and tomorrow I have the store appointment so I can be on for that.
i am pathetically hopeful that she will like my work.
i have been home alone for 13 hours. I was awake alone from 5-6. I need some human interaction, but I need it to be easy. I hid upstairs when the 4h family came to work with the goat. (I locked the house and got in the shower when I saw them pulling in - so at least I took a shower?) I couldn’t face having to talk to the mother.
Teacher Terry
6-19-18, 10:28pm
CL, I really hope you consider getting professional help. I did at one point about 26 years ago and it made all the difference in the world. We all need help sometimes.
Chicken lady
6-20-18, 5:43am
Teacher Terry, I really do hear you and understand what you are saying. But I know just enough to get in my own way (like knowing you have the placebo in a drug trial - you will get no placebo effect) of the potential therapeutic approaches, the two that might be helpful to me are talk therapy and Cbt. Talking here and a few other places is far more helpful to me than a therapist would be because it doesn’t have the added stresses of travel or expense, is conveniently available any time, and I know that people are actually engaging with me voluntarily. That itself is worth more than a therapist.
cbt I understand well enough to not really need a therapist. When I use it and it works, it is helpful. When I don’t, having another person who I get to report my failure to would not be helpful at all. No matter how that person reacted, because I would be paying that person to give me an appropriate reaction.
if, at some point, the people who love me tell me they really think I need drugs, I would be willing to talk to a psychiatrist, but I am really opposed to the drug idea, and no one who sees me regularly is suggesting them. In fact, KNOWING ME, none of the four family members who have/had therapists/psychiatrists have suggested I talk to one.
I had a better discussion with dh about the feedback I need last night. He is very good at comfort and care and helping me treat myself gently when I have a bad day. But I need him to help me celebrate the “better” days in a way more proportionate to the effort rather than his personal feelings about the results. (Translation - remembering to buy lactaid may be more important to him, but it is not more impressive than contacting the classroom outreach person about fall programs, and I need him to acknowledge the progress that I made in having that interaction even though he couldn’t care less about fall programs.) (fall programs will be out in July, btw, in case you were wondering ;) )
dd have me a pep talk last night about taking my stuff to the store today. I need to remember that i am there because somebody liked my work enough to think this woman should sell it, and if she doesn’t want to sell it “well then, that’s her mistake, you can’t force her to make money.”
i did not not eat ice cream at bedtime last night. I did not get to bed as early as I wanted because I realized it wasn’t dark yet and I can’t sleep when it’s light out. Then when it did get dark, it took me over 20 minutes to get ready for bed. But I didn’t eat ice cream, and I brushed my teeth.
Just one thought from my couple of years of really enjoying all your posts here chicken lady – I feel like you’re a friend, in fact!
you always have a massive to do list. All of us are different, but if I had that it would depress me on a daily basis. Is there a way that you can change that and just live each day as it unfolds? Just do the things that are in front of you to do and forget about the long list?
I echo having some professional therapy. While I understand cost and travel, a professional can give you much needed tools that are right for you.
RE: Hubby: he can't give you what you need unless you give him direction on what you need. To get ready for that conversation, record a few of those scenarios that occurred recently. Write down what he did and how if affected you. Write down what you needed and how it would be most helpful to your wellness.
When you are ready, sit down with him to have the conversation based on "this is what I need from you to help me feel healthier and successful". It's not about him being wrong because in his eyes he was being helpful, it's about him helping you in a way that IS helpful for you.
ApatheticNoMore
6-20-18, 11:06am
I have two decades of therapy, two decades, I went to therapy from about age 20-40, not all the same therapist, two main ones but also tried others. And yes it's quite possible, in fact likely, they weren't very good! But that's a risk inherent in going to therapy. What I wouldn't give to have the money I spent instead probably.
But if you are going to therapy I would just do it to have someone to talk to. That's a real benefit in the now (and it either is or isn't or some benefit to helping you cope in the now) not a lot of promises. (oh and I'm not saying you don't have people to talk to now maybe, but it may not be enough).
Chicken lady
6-20-18, 11:53am
Gardner, I basically did that the other night:
these are things I did that I feel good about.
this is why they were hard.
this is how you reacted when I told you.
because I don’t trust my judgement I need external feedback on my actions. I need you to recognize that it was hard for me and confirm that what I did was a genuine step forward, even if the action itself is not important to you. When I feel like this, it is very easy for me to assume that nothing I do matters, and if you react with indifference, it confirms that for me. Then maybe tomorrow I stay in bed all day, because who cares, it’s all the same.
he didn’t get it.
but then last night when I wasn’t doing well, I told him the things he was doing that were good and helpful, and that he was really good at “support” but not so much on “encouragement” and he heard me. But he still hasn’t responded to my note about my consignment appointment this morning. He is really busy at work though. And dd2 and ds both sent me a short cheer on the family message thread, so he knows i’m not being ignored.
anyway - right now i’m feeling pretty good - shots of adrenaline, dopamine, and serotonin that I may pay for later.... but maybe not.
mschrisgo2
6-20-18, 6:31pm
CL, sounds to me like you are missing your students and experiencing a kind of grieving.
OK, maybe that's projection: I am missing MY students! I retired a year ago, but I taught after school reading classes 4 days a week from Feb through May this year. It served to give my days structure (and pay that made it worth driving there), AND I also realized just how much I like having kids around me. Kids are different than adults; kids know they are busy working their way through their own learning and there is a kind of connecting in, then fading out, that allows me not to feel drained (I am an introvert), yet there is a kind of companionship in learning that I really enjoy.
This was a successful teaching experience in that I felt really complete with them at the end: they had achieved their goals and they knew it. And I was ready to let them go. But I miss them, I miss the companionship in learning together.
I have "always" had depression in mid June, and I always thought it was this end of school thing, grieving "losing" my students. But this year I ended in May, before Memorial Day, and I was fine for almost 3 weeks, then it hit me like a ton of bricks, depression like I have not had in many years, could barely get out of bed to let the dogs out.
So I had to sit back and really take stock- work was done, weather was glorious, no particularly heavy time commitments, wonderful just-right vacation plans... arg! What else happens in early/mid June? Then my daughter mentioned that while her friends were starting to make July 4th plans, she was starting to feel sad, because it is 20 years this July 4th since her grandmother died. All of a sudden, I realized I didn't know the date my Grandma died, called my mom and asked her--- Guess What? June 10. That is the exact day I couldn't get out of bed this year. It has often been the last day of school, and I have dragged myself through it, collapsing when it was done.
I called a friend who is a retired school psychologist and told her my story. I could "hear" her nodding her head on the phone. When I stopped talking she paused, then said, "yes. Cellular Memory." Huh? "Your body remembers, it's in your cells, even when your brain doesn't know, your body does... time of year, length of the day, weather... We see it in kids. My trainer uses it with the dogs."
Ah, now that made some sense. I am very connected to the natural world, and I did not get to really grieve my grandmother's death. I was still in school, had finals to take that would make or break college choices, my parents couldn't really afford to fly me to another state...
So I took my dogs and drove 2 hours out to the coast, sat on the beach in the fog and cried all afternoon. Next year I will plan a different June 10. For now, I am journaling about my grandparents everyday. We are at once complicated and simple beings.
Chicken lady
6-20-18, 7:23pm
I definitely miss my kids, graduation was especially hard this year. but I also needed a break from them - they lift me up and wear me out. The rest of my life was falling apart.
dh sent me a digital rose.
i got some cleaning and organizing done in my studio, and I think if I give it another half hour tomorrow I can actually do some clay work in there.
my friend came over and brought me half a gallon of blueberries from her yard (not the one I invited for next week who hasn’t answered yet, I actually have several friends. I last saw this one at Christmas time.) - I found her in my kitchen writing a note on a paper bag because the door was unlocked and she figured I was in the studio, and she didn’t want to come out and bother me.
i made dinner. It is done too early. Fortunately it is soup - aaand, between “for” and “tunately” dh called to say he is working late. So I guess we will just eat. (He left for work a little more than 12 hours ago.)
Teacher Terry
6-20-18, 11:12pm
CL, many of us really care about you and wish you peace and happiness.
I get it, and I know that we need to respect the changes in our lives, seasons, and ups and downs.
I realized from reading the other posters that I just had my last kid move out, I ended the school year and am doing summer without any kids or staff I know, and then made a major move.
Dealing with pretty much daily depression for so long, but also being single and needing to get the basics done, I get how tiring it can be. But as others have pointed out you get a lot of things done.
Chicken lady
6-21-18, 6:17am
Zoe Girl, you are doing ok. I have so many fewer responsibilities and so much more support than you do. I literally don’t have to make a living. If I never went back to work, we would have to make some changes, but none of them would be awful. I can’t imagine what it would be like to be trapped in the job you have, and I wish all the time that you would find something better.
Tammy, my “massive to do list” is in part an effort to not lose each day as it unfolds. If I don’t think through my day and plan what I want to accomplish, I will literally forget things and wander around doing what is in front of me. I am great at “in the moment.” I spent half my children’s childhoods terrified that I would get involved in something and forget to pick them up. I have missed events I wanted to attend because “I forgot it was Tuesday” (not that I forgot the event was Tuesday, I forgot that I was experiencing Tuesday.) I am not someone who can have food and clean underwear and live pets without planning to buy the food and do the wash and feed the pet. Without a todo list, I become a four year old. And not a four year old in a nice, well structured home - the kind who spends her day wearing half a costume, leaves her toys scattered throughout the house, eats nothing but a box of graham crackers, and falls asleep on the couch covered in crumbs and stained with red juice and then “has an accident” because she was so tired and forgot to go potty.
i write “make dh breakfast” on my list every day. If I need to shower, I write that too.
dh brought me real flowers when he got home last night. It makes me smile when I look at them.
dado potato
6-21-18, 6:57am
Wishing you well.
(I see that you like flowers...)
2267
I must be immune to the seductive call of karoshi; I've never embraced the need to be accomplishing something meaningful every minute of the day. I'm quite content to read--and even nap--amid the mess. I schedule myself a couple of small tasks each day--ten minutes doing yardwork, for example, or a load of laundry--then return to my leisurely existence. I recognize that I have the luxury to do this, and it's one of the things I'm thankful for. I've never been an energy-filled, flea on the griddle type person, and I'm sure most of you would disapprove, but I doubt any afterlife is going to judge me by my work output--and if it is, too bad. What I'm trying to say is, no matter how it's being used these days, "driven" is not a compliment.
frugal-one
6-21-18, 9:57am
I must be immune to the seductive call of karoshi; I've never embraced the need to be accomplishing something meaningful every minute of the day. I'm quite content to read--and even nap--amid the mess. I schedule myself a couple of small tasks each day--ten minutes doing yardwork, for example, or a load of laundry--then return to my leisurely existence. I recognize that I have the luxury to do this, and it's one of the things I'm thankful for. I've never been an energy-filled, flea on the griddle type person, and I'm sure most of you would disapprove, but I doubt any afterlife is going to judge me by my work output--and it it is, too bad. What I'm trying to say is, no matter how it's being used these days, "driven" is not a compliment.
As noted earlier, people find things to do that do not need to be done. Someone here said it makes them feel important. I, too, enjoy sitting with a good book and a cup of tea. It feeds my soul.
Chicken lady
6-21-18, 10:53am
I had to look up “Karoshi” I think that is more about your career.
i keep running into this accusation that I am thinking up unnecessary things to do, that I want to be so busy. Please stop. Because I assure you, I enjoy a book and a good cup of tea as much as the next person. And I see absolutely no value in being busy just to be busy. I don’t think it makes anyone better, or more important or more impressive.
i have too much to do because I want too many things.
dh aunt (who is now my favorite aunt) once told me a story about her 12 y.o. son informing her “I don’t have to do that!” And her reply was “you are right. All you have to do is die. Every action you take or don’t take between now and then is your choice. And you live with the consequences.”
i know that I do not have enough hours left in my life to do everything I want to do. That I will never have everything I would like to have. But I am still trying to maximize. And because I have a brain that is nonlinear and easily distracted, I have to start with my goals, work backwards, make a list, and do as much as I can, prioritizing as I go. When you tell me I don’t need to be so busy, or I am making up things I don’t need to do, what I hear is “the things you want and value are wrong. Having or doing them is worth less than doing this other thing that you do not value.” So please stop. I do know that sometimes I have to rest in order to continue. More often than I want, and when my will is stronger than my body - more often than I do. And then my body gives out on me and I get angry and sad.
Sounds driven to me; it is demonstrably not making you happy.
Teacher Terry
6-21-18, 11:55am
Reading how your brain works was interesting. I am so glad that mine is not like that and is in fact very organized. The only time in my life where I was as busy as you are is when I had 3 kids, going to college full time and working part time but I was young. Now that I am older I definitely am having less on my to do list.
I like the Dr. Phil question, and now I am reminding myself to apply it to my own situation, which has been in flux, and I have been so unhappy since my parents became so ill, and I have been trying to meet the demands of five sets of family members:
"How's that working out for you?"
Lately, not so well! So take a look at his article that I found when I googled his catchphrase, I thought it was helpful for me:
http://www.oprah.com/spirit/dr-phil-hows-that-working-for-you_1/all
Chicken lady
6-21-18, 12:38pm
How’s it working out for me:
the important personal relationships in my life are strong
my job is the best it has ever been
my body is in better shape than it was when I was in my teens, but I think I peaked in my 30s.
my home has gone from an overcrowded building I hated to a place I love and feel comfortable and safe and able to have people I care about.
since the kids moved out I have not managed to bring the garden/livestock back to a manageable equilibrium, but I am still working on it. This year I scaled back heavily on plants. It makes me sad that I do not have a garden, but it slipped down the priority list
my role as a potter is expanding in my life and I find that enjoyable and rewarding.
the hoarding behavior has gotten much better.
i still struggle with episodes of depression. It manifests as despair more often now - when I was a teenager, it manifested more as anger.
i am more likely to respond to these episodes with positive self care behavior and requests for help, rather than self loathing and denial or actual self destructive actions.
my reach still exceeds my grasp.
i’d say It’s working out ok.
i intend to live to be really old. I’ll read on the porch when I have fewer choices. If I die suddenly and miss that part I do not believe I will be capable of regrets afterward.
Chicken lady
6-21-18, 12:44pm
Btw, I have just realized that a lot of this may be communication error. I realize I often comment on or complain about being tired or overwhelmed, and it is probably coming off as “I don’t want to have so many demands, I want to feel better” - solution, do less stuff. what I am actually saying is more along the lines of “it really pisses me off that I am stuck with a body and mind that are not capable of carrying out my desires” (the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak) solution? Probably “tough, get used to it.” I would rather have the stuff done and wish I wasn’t tired than be rested and wish the stuff were done.
I want to exit this life having done some good and having enjoyed myself; any lofty ambitions I may have had dissipated long ago.
I figure this life is for experiencing certain circumstances and growing from them.
I once characterized my mind as like a shape sorter or Magic 8 Ball. I ask a question or search for a name, and it comes up either instantly or "in a while." I'm generally scattered as opposed to organized, but I'm OK with it.
Btw, I have just realized that a lot of this may be communication error. I realize I often comment on or complain about being tired or overwhelmed, and it is probably coming off as “I don’t want to have so many demands, I want to feel better” - solution, do less stuff. what I am actually saying is more along the lines of “it really pisses me off that I am stuck with a body and mind that are not capable of carrying out my desires” (the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak) solution? Probably “tough, get used to it.” I would rather have the stuff done and wish I wasn’t tired than be rested and wish the stuff were done.
That willing spirit, weak flesh situation is something I've thought a lot about lately, as I grow even more lame and sluggish in my dotage, but I'm a lot kinder to myself than I might have been in earlier years. I'm past flagellating myself for a perception of falling short.
CL, it just saddens me when you beat yourself up and say things like "I failed", when the original intention was way beyond what a mere mortal could be expected to do. Its good to have high expectations, but not when you use those as a club to harm yourself.
ApatheticNoMore
6-21-18, 1:54pm
Btw, I have just realized that a lot of this may be communication error. I realize I often comment on or complain about being tired or overwhelmed, and it is probably coming off as “I don’t want to have so many demands, I want to feel better” - solution, do less stuff. what I am actually saying is more along the lines of “it really pisses me off that I am stuck with a body and mind that are not capable of carrying out my desires” (the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak) solution? Probably “tough, get used to it.” I would rather have the stuff done and wish I wasn’t tired than be rested and wish the stuff were done.
so I guess you are saying you just want to rant about being tired. Then rant on I guess. I think people try to help because they don't realize you are just letting off steam.
And I think most people's solutions would be: live with the body/mind you have. And no it doesn't matter if someone else's body mind is objectively better even (that is to say if you have physical or mental health issues they don't) because you don't get to live in their body/mind. It's unfair if the world judges us by standards we simply can't meet, but hey the world and this culture are pretty messed up at present, really badly actually. But if we judge ourselves for standards we can't meet ...
Chicken lady
6-21-18, 2:49pm
I think I keep hoping that somebody will have a suggestion for improving the software/hardware problem, and all I get is “look, Siri is not going to make you a sandwich!” ����
i really haven’t done much today. It’s been rainy all day and I am physically tired. I actually do tend to pay for the ups with downs, I just keep trying to move the average location of the line.
by “not done much” I mean: made breakfast (did not make lunch because dh had a lunch meeting), did my chores (about an hour) partly emptied the dishwasher, washed and put away three cast iron pans, measured for the piece of drywall to put up so I can set up my doll shelf again some day, boiled potatoes and eggs for egg salad (which I did not make yet) ate breakfast and lunch, cleaned up in the studio for about 45 minutes, and read and posted online and watched videos. In 8 hours. So mostly i’ve been reading and watching videos.
I wanted to have a fire for solstice, but - rain. The potato salad is intended for dinner, so that is time sensitive. I told the foodbank I would come today and I have a lot of eggs to wash and take. I need to pen the goat the 4h kid is using before he comes this evening because he is not able to catch the goat in the field. I currently have no interest in any of that, but I know I will feel better if I do it.
i used to drink a lot of diet soda and run on caffeine and I quit because it was bad for me and days like this I question that choice. Although, as I am typing, I am thinking “Music. Tea. Turn the &@/* lights on...” (is the computer plugged in?)
what I am actually saying is more along the lines of “it really pisses me off that I am stuck with a body and mind that are not capable of carrying out my desires” (the spirit is willing, but the flesh is weak) solution
That willing spirit, weak flesh situation is something I've thought a lot about lately, as I grow even more lame and sluggish in my dotage, but I'm a lot kinder to myself than I might have been in earlier years. I'm past flagellating myself for a perception of falling short.
I've been reading the pages of this thread with interest. I actually have been on a little self-imposed "retreat" for the past couple of days because I've been finding my daily life continually less ... manageable? It's not a physical thing per se, though I get lots of reminders these days that I'm no longer 30 (or 40). I've done some research and the issue does not appear to be caused by depression, though general quizzes can offer only so much specificity. I've taken enough of them over the past few weeks...
The "a-ha" moment of the past couple of days has been realizing more clearly that I hold many values, the priority of which often need to be juggled with each other (in part because they sometimes conflict) and that the ground upon which I'm juggling shifts by the day (sometimes even by the hour).
I've never considered myself particularly "driven". I've seen what obsession does to others and my ego does not need that thankyewkindly. But I think all of us reach for more than we can grasp and we experience different levels of frustration in not getting all that we want. Especially when what we "want" is good for us and maybe even noble.
I'd like to put 15,000 steps a day every day on a fitness tracker. But some of what I want to accomplish in a given day (that is, other values I want to honor) requires sitting still and concentrating enough to not be stepping around. Maybe I could have done that when I was younger but that's not the case today and I have to give myself that much room. I must be realistic in my goals and I must prioritize. I am hopeful that, later, I don't look back and say to myself, "Why did I spend so much time on that sedentary task when I could have been more active?" I am hopeful that, in the end, what I accomplished in the sedentary task was worthwhile. Sometimes it's impossible to know for sure. Sometimes what's accomplished isn't even done directly for me -- it's done for someone else as a way to honor their value to me (though, in a way, what I'm doing for others I'm doing for myself).
I have to be better at "forgiving" myself my limitations of time, energy (physical and mental), and (sometimes) money. It's not that X always has a higher value than Y -- because sometimes it doesn't and who could quantify that anyway? (Add in the Z value of me liking to cross things off my to-do list, magically enhancing whichever of X or Y can help honor that value.) If X didn't happen because Y needed to be addressed today, I should not make excuses. I made a reasoned judgement. At least more of Y happened even though more of X did not. I don't have to like it, but that is how the record stands.
I sense I'm rambling a bit and yet I need to move on to some other things at the moment. I hope this helps this conversation along. I know reading this thread certainly has helped me.
Chicken lady
6-21-18, 4:13pm
Hey Steve, you want to come drink a cup of tea in a kitchen with corn chips on the floor?
This:
I hold manyvalues, the priority of which often need to be juggled with each other (in part because they sometimes conflict) and that the ground upon which I'm juggling shifts by the day (sometimes even by the hour).
I've never considered myself particularly "driven". I've seen what obsession does to others and my ego does not need that thankyewkindly. But I think all of us reach for more than we can grasp and we experience different levels of frustration in not getting all that we want. Especially when what we "want" is good for us and maybe even noble.
Chicken lady
6-21-18, 4:17pm
And also this:
Sometimes what's accomplished isn't even done directly for me -- it's done for someone else as a way to honor their value to me (though, in a way, what I'm doing for others I'm doing for myself).
I have to be better at "forgiving" myself my limitations of time, energy (physical and mental), and (sometimes) money. It's not that X always has a higher value than Y -- because sometimes it doesn't and who could quantify that anyway? (Add in the Z value [.....] If X didn't happen because Y needed to be addressed today, [….] I made a reasoned judgement. At least more of Y happened even though more of X did not. I don't have to like it, but that is how the record stands.
which almost made me cry.
Sure, Cl, yeah! I promise I won't look around much. ;)
It took until today for this to crystallize for me. Now, how that revelation turns into some sort of action plan or day/week template so I at least can plan to get stuff done rather than leave X and Y to fight it out among themselves and the other letters daily, well, that's another deal -- and it could be kind of messy. But better that than utter chaos.
And at least now I know why I'm not getting everything done that I wanted to do, which, in turn, makes me feel better about what I am making progress on. That does not mean the stuff on my to-do list is exempted from an evaluation of whether I should do it at all; sometimes new needs crowd out old ones and sometimes there just isn't the facility to make something happen with any reasonable effort on my part. But this helps me a lot.
Having had 2 very serious thyroid crisis in the 90s, the 2nd so severe I wasn't sure I would live........I have absolutely no trouble putting myself first. I say no when I don't have the energy. I turn down invitations with a simple "I am sorry, but I already have a commitment"....which may simply be to spend downtime at home with hubby. DH and I share the chores of maintaining our home and the rest of our lives. We negotiated this early in our relationship. He is very understanding and supportive.
Teacher Terry
6-21-18, 11:19pm
CL, what works for one person does not work for another. I have learned that none of my suggestions are right for you. That is okay as we each have our own path.
Chicken lady
6-22-18, 5:22am
So I did do the potato salad, and wash the eggs, and pen the goat up, and go to the food bank.
and the 4h kid didn’t come because his mom decided not to bring him in the rain.
but we ran out of eggs at the food bank and I was glad I had added mine.
and I went to bed early, slept well, and woke up ten minutes before my alarm.
today my heartgrandson is coming over and we are making cookies. That is my whole afternoon goal/plan.
this morning it is chores and clean up the kitchen/catch up on dishes so I can make cookies with heartgrandson. And maybe laundry.
Cl, sounds as if you've had 2 good days in a row!
Chicken lady
6-22-18, 11:12am
Yeah, dh noticed last night that I was doing better.
It is hard focusing on just one or two things each day.
Maybe with more success and feeling better at it, focusing on just a couple things a day might become a way of life.
mschrisgo2
6-22-18, 3:14pm
CL, sounds like you are moving in the right-for-you-at-this-time direction, nice!
I find it easier to structure my days and I get more "done" when I have a task away from home... which directly conflicts with not wanting to be out driving in the traffic and craziness every day. Also, because there are savings in gas, etc. if I don't go out everyday, I tend to save errands until I have LOTS of them, then I totally burn myself out! This discussion has helped me clarify that, and realize I need to get some balance around it.
I used to make "weekend lists" of all the things I wanted/needed to get done, and even assigned times to fit them all in- then totally disregarded the timing but still got everything done. Now I have incomplete projects all over the place, and errands I "forgot" when I was out on Wednesday... can't seem to get a finish on anything, I guess because there is no "finish by" date.
Arg. A work in progress
Chicken lady
6-22-18, 4:56pm
So the boy has gone off with his box of cookies, and I have an hour and a half until dh comes home from work.
i want to have gone over to my friend’s house and picked blueberries, but I cannot find the impetus to go.
i have measurements and a utility knife ready to cut the drywall for behind my shelf.
i skipped journaling this morning,
the laundry is ready to switch over,
there is plenty to do in the pottery studio,
and there are dirty cookie dishes.
i just spent 20 minutes watching a video and could easily repeat the action 4 more times - ending up exactly where I am now, but 80 minutes older and feeling worse about myself.
Teacher Terry
6-22-18, 11:10pm
Sounds like fun making cookies with your grandson.
Chicken lady
6-23-18, 7:12am
It was. It’s always good to see him. He wants to come back in two weeks when we have new baby goats again. He’s growing up so fast!
I called dh. He said there were leftovers for dinner, so I should leave the dishes and go pick blueberries for however long I wanted. So I switched over the laundry and I went.
my friend was home, so we picked together and chatted. She says she likes picking better when she has someone to pick with. (I like visiting better when I have a thing to do, so I guess that was all good). I filled a gallon bucket before it started raining again, and she fed me a piece of cherry pie.
mschrisgo2, that is interesting about the errands. When I have to go somewhere, it is the lions chunk of my day. The going is really hard for me. So, it works well for me to schedule a whole bunch of things together. When I am working I try to put the errands in on the way home from work. Sometimes dh will call me and ask if I want to come meet him for dinner. If I am out, I am always happy - yes! Dinner! No cooking! But if I am home, I will often actually say “but i’m at home.” Sometimes I will be able to talk him into bringing me dinner. Sometimes I will tell him just to get something on his own. Rarely I will go. (Even more rarely I will choose to cook)
anyway, I will be nearly as tired from a trip to the grocery store as from a full day of Christmas shopping. The bulk of the energy is consumed getting into the car and going out. Then it’s just a question of how far I can get on momentum.
I have had “incomplete projects” all around me from the day I learned to stack a block on top of another block. I too respond better with “finish by” dates. I think part of my massive todo lists is trying to make room for my desires. If it is on the list, maybe I will do it. You would think that someone would do the things they want to do, but there are so many thing around me that have an external force, the internal ones get shunted aside, and even forgotten. “Oh! I meant to go out and wash the pottery bats so i’d be ready to throw today! I could have done that in the half hour I spent reading that gardening blog, but when I finished that e-mail for work, the blog was right there and it was shiny and distracting....”
dh says ways I am better.
today we take all the tires that were left on our property to the tire recycling day drop at the fire station.
just that.
my brain is pushing to make a huge long list. But just that.
and eating better and moving. I have to do something about this weight. I gained more this week and I feel awful. As in, physically, I can feel the size of my body affecting my range of motion, and I am getting short of breath when I do things.
Chicken lady – I wonder if you are a seven on the Enneagram. Those people always want to do everything to the fullest and they have trouble saying no to anything because everything in life is so much fun!
If it would be fun for you, you could read “the wisdom of the enneagram“. That was my favorite book about personality structure of all the many that I’ve read over the years.
And that was the one book that spoke to me personally and helped me through an early midlife crisis in my late 30s.
Actually the book I read might’ve benefitted the most from was “personality types“ by Riso and Hudson. But that other book is good too and I may have read that along the way…
Chicken lady – I wonder if you are a seven on the Enneagram. Those people always want to do everything to the fullest and they have trouble saying no to anything because everything in life is so much fun!
If it would be fun for you, you could read “the wisdom of the enneagram“. That was my favorite book about personality structure of all the many that I’ve read over the years.
And that was the one book that spoke to me personally and helped me through an early midlife crisis in my late 30s.
I've done my enneagram and I'm
#1: The Peacemaker
#2: The Helper
#3: The Investigator
Anyone else do one?
Chicken lady
6-23-18, 1:21pm
Hmm, I looked that enneagram thing up briefly. I think I am whatever personality type doesn’t have any interest in that sort of analysis.
We took the tires. I am spending the afternoon curled up on the couch with dh. He is paying the bills.
ApatheticNoMore
6-23-18, 3:23pm
I got 5 ("the investigator") when I took it several years ago (the official one) 5 it tends to correspond to Meyers Briggs INTP which I also score. I tend to also have traits of 4-ish ("the individualist") and score highish on it on unofficial tests sometimes, but one can be a type and score high on nearby types (wings), and 5's supposedly mistake themselves for 4s.
Yea INTP types are the types that go to town on these tests! :~)
Chicken lady
6-23-18, 5:20pm
Dh got me to come out and help clear fallen logs and brush in the woods for a couple of hours. I was very aware of being out of shape, and my body is tired, but it is a good kind of tired, an “I did exercise that accomplished something” tired.
I love exercise that accomplishes something tiredness.
I got 5 ("the investigator") when I took it several years ago (the official one) 5 it tends to correspond to Meyers Briggs INTP which I also score. I tend to also have traits of 4-ish ("the individualist") and score highish on it on unofficial tests sometimes, but one can be a type and score high on nearby types (wings), and 5's supposedly mistake themselves for 4s.
Yea INTP types are the types that go to town on these tests! :~)
I think INFJ also love personality tests, I get a 4 on the enneagram I think, if that is the super individualistic one. The INFJ is a weird one, a lot of people mis-type, and maybe because it is so rare. However I just keep getting it so I am stuck here.
Work that leaves you 'good tired' is very satisfying.
Yes, just did it, and I am almost even split, with results in this order:
#5 The Investigator
#2 The Helper
#6 The Loyalist
Not sure why 5 shows up differently on test I took?
Chicken lady
6-24-18, 8:31pm
Today I made dh breakfast (he had to leave today) but not lunch.
cleaned up the tree dh cut down for me
did my chores
froze the last of the blueberries.
made rice pudding
Froze homemade ice cream
put the boy goats out in a pen to clear brush - they escaped
did a load of dishes
moved four wheelbarrows of used bedding
read
watched videos
showered
dropped off the recycling
filed my car with gas
got groceries
Made dinner.
i didn’t sleep well last night.
going into town for recycling/gas/groceries was very hard. I talked to dh about it over dinner and cried. The drive is too long and I kept thinking about all the things i wasn't doing because I was driving and there were too many people everywhere in town.
ok, this is a communication thing - i need to change the thinking around the driving, not find a way to get groceries less often or closer or outsource grocery shopping.
I used to get really annoyed at how long it took to fill the water buckets. Then I timed it. But it still *felt* long. Then I invented bucket yoga - where I do tree pose and concentrate on balance/core/awareness/centering while the bucket fills. So now I feel like it is better use of time - the need to fill the bucket defines the time set aside for the yoga pose. So I need something like that for drive time, but it has to be less focused because sometimes I get too focused and spray water on my shoes. I do not want to wreck the car (dh says no phone calls)
i must go round up those goats and feed everything.
heartgrandson is coming back for the day tomorrow.
godawlmighty you make me tired just reading your daily list.
When I'm watering my plants with garbage cans filled with lake water, because we can't figure out how to turn the outside spigots on, I'm not doing tree pose, I'm just walking back and forth filling my watering can and watering 60 individual plants. I try not to worry about whether it's a good use of my time, because I think my plants believe it is.
Chicken lady
6-24-18, 9:59pm
What are you thinking about when you are walking back and forth? Also, you are walking. I am trapped standing in one spot. I feel trapped. So I had to find a way to quiet my mind and make being still purposeful.
it doesn’t feel like a very full day. It felt like a slow day. What did you do today?
Teacher Terry
6-24-18, 11:22pm
I wonder if you have ADHD because that was a full day for most people:))
That’s a huge amount of work for one day.
You need to lower your expectations.
Let’s compare days -
I slept til 8 cause this past week exhausted me. I ate breakfast. I cut my husbands hair. I swiffered the whole house. I washed dishes. We went out for dinner. I took a nap. Watched 3-4 episodes of Star Trek. Read a book. Took a bag of trash to the alley. Talked with my aunt on the phone cause her friend had surgery and she wanted to tell me all about it cause I’m a nurse.
That’s a normal day when I don’t work,
Chicken lady
6-25-18, 5:21am
I’m trying to get my head around that.
Is your house big? Were you really sitting down most of the day? What do you do when you work? (Do you sit down - or are you making rounds/in and out of exam rooms all day?). Do you have any goals? Hobbies? Projects? Is your house clean all the time?
I am confident I am not ADHD. The jury is still out on autism.
Teacher Terry
6-25-18, 8:29am
Most people don’t have a farm or lots of land to maintain so much of the work you do goes away. Our yard is mostly maintenance free with plants on automatic sprinklers and Astro-turf. Because of the lack of rain this is necessary. Cleaning inside is much faster since I got rid of my collections of dolls, Hummel, etc. Taking care of 3 dogs takes some time.
Chicken lady
6-25-18, 9:01am
So, if I didn’t have the farm, I would reallocate the time to something else - pottery, working on the dollhouse i’d like to get to some day....
but I can’t imagine not having some kind of garden to work in. I would hate that. The only time I didn’t have a garden was in college - and I actually used to stop and pull weeds in the park or on campus.
it is 9:00. Heartfamily is due any minute.
i have read the paper, consumed the coffee, made dh breakfast, packed lunch, done chores, tidied up, run a load of laundry, emptied the dishwasher, brought the Legos upstairs and put popovers in the oven.
i feel good today.
Teacher Terry
6-25-18, 9:06am
We do have a garden with automatic sprinklers of course. My son will come over and pick what is ripe during the 5 weeks we are gone. DH does the garden because it is not my thing.
Reading over this thread again, CL, it sounds to me like you are experiencing distress because your activities do not always meet your needs, and you are feeling some conflict between "must-do" (possibly defined by others) and "want to do" (self-define.)
I am thinking maybe more goats and less cleaning house, for a quick example of what might make you happier? More pottery, less pots and pans?
So what would your ideal day look like?
I’m a nurse manager. About 150 people report to me. I run my butt off during the week. Yes I sat down much of the day that was my used as my example. Rest is a good thing.
My house is 950 sq ft. Our outdoor area is a city lot typical sized, with as mush shaded sitting area outside as inside. My house is usually very clean. I wash dishes by hand - no dishwasher which doesn’t bother me at all. My hobbies are riding bike and reading and Star Trek and grandkids. I rest more in the summer cause it’s triple digits for 3 months in the desert.
Having nothing on my to do list is glorious. But I usually have about 2-5 things to do each day at home. Pay a bill, check if deposit made it to an account, do a load of laundry, that sort of thing.
You do too much in my opinion. But then that’s just my opinion.
Teacher Terry
6-25-18, 11:56am
It seems to me that you set yourself up for failure each day because your list is so big that only Superwoman could get it done:))
Chicken lady
6-25-18, 3:06pm
I asked about the sitting because I also get tired and sometimes have a day when I sit a lot, but if I had a sitting job also, that would be too much sitting! It sounds like you don’t sit at work much!
The boy and I ate popovers, took some goats for a walk, played with Legos, made ice cream and chocolate chip cookies, ate lunch, played the piano, got out the big rocking horse (holds up to 140lbs), and wore my legs out on the seesaw. He also played in the hammock while I pulled weeds in the flower bed next to it and shot baskets while I visited with his mom.
i have had a very good day.
i’m going to stretch out for a few minutes and then go pick some blueberries at my friend’s house, stop for zuchini and come home to make dinner.
It seems to me that you set yourself up for failure each day because your list is so big that only Superwoman could get it done:)
I think if one ever gets to the end of one's to-do list, there's a big problem. :)
I have several lists of projects/tasks on my computer/phone. One is for DW's and my house; one is specifically for yard/landscaping projects; another for my Mom's rental; there's a list of stuff I need to remember to buy when I'm out and about. Though I shouldn't do this, my email inboxes serve as to-do lists ("remember to shop insurance" "write that product review"). Then there's the stuff like washing dishes and taking out the recycling and feeding the dog that don't even make the list because they happen all. the. time.
It may be true that only Superwoman could get CL's list done in a day. But IMHO there's nothing wrong with listing everything that a person wants to get done and trying to tackle as much of it as possible. The key, I think, is being willing to reassess the priority of what gets done based on need (your own or others of importance to you) and either de-prioritizing or bumping things off the list if they no longer hold sufficient value. I see what CL is doing as more of an organizational method than setting herself up for failure daily. Plus she seems very busy. Again, the main issue is if the tasks/goals are never reevaluated in the face of new information.
Teacher Terry
6-25-18, 4:19pm
Steve, that’s a interesting perspective. I only make lists for things that I don’t do regularly. I don’t need a list for my job either.
Chicken lady
6-25-18, 6:04pm
I am more like Steve. I make lists for everything. I use the “notes” ap. I have one list for each day that I add the remains from yesterday to the bottom of.
every list almost every day starts “breakfast, lunch, chores -milk, fill water...” most days say “dishes” some days say “laundry” I even write shower and brush teeth on the hard days. Every day ends with “set up coffee”
I also have lists for my job. They are called lesson plans. Plus, I write all the materials I will need down to pencils and paper on every lesson plan.
dinner was one too many things. I was about to struggle through it when Dd came home and asked “can we trade? I’ll make dinner tonight and you can do tomorrow?”
i do need to clean up the cookie dishes. That is not on my list.
dado potato
6-25-18, 7:34pm
FWIW:
Tide nor time tarrieth no man.
I see a forecast for rain tomorrow, so I plan on baking bread.
Trading with Dd is the bee's knees, Chicken lady. (My grand-daughter is staying here for a few weeks, and she saw me tenderizing a sirloin steak today, and I could tell she wanted to take a few whacks at it. "Nothing we do for the young is completely wasted.")
Is it OCD? Writing to brush teeth and shower on a list? Or would you really forget if you didn’t write it down?
Chicken lady
6-26-18, 5:12am
I would really forget.
If I clean stalls or something, I take a shower. I feel like I need a shower and I take one. If I am struggling and just puttering around the house or sitting a lot, I just slowly get dirtier and dh will end up looking at me and asking “when was the last time you took a shower?”
i forgot to brush my teeth last night. It wasn’t on my list because I was doing better, and dh went to bed before me, which almost never happens, and my evening cues were messed up, and I forgot to brush my teeth.
i woke up early because I was supposed to have a friend over for the first time today (nervous/excited) and discovered that she e-mailed me late last night that she can’t come. Her mother lives in town and is older and in poor health and needs her today. So now I am sad/sorry/but also relieved. It was a lot to take on on top of having the boy yesterday, and maybe my house will be a little better when she does come. But I really like this person and I really want to be friends outside of work. Also i hope her mom is ok.
also, she started her e-mail with “don’t hate me”. Maybe she is nervous about this too. She is like the popular girl in school at work - not the mean one, the one who can eat lunch wherever she wants and facilitates the group project because everybody just listens to her. And when I have had a chance to work with her on something, it has really been fun. So I got brave and suggested we get together over the summer some time and she gave me her personal e-mail and it took me a whole month to schedule something. And she leaves for Texas in two and a half weeks and won’t be back until school starts.
Chicken lady
6-26-18, 7:10pm
I got a little done this morning, but my brain was pushing me to take advantage of the cool weather and clean stalls, and I just couldn’t do it. By 11:30 I had given up and given in to snacking and watching videos. I’m trying to be gentle with myself about that - it started raining not long after noon. I was tired from yesterday, I was disappointed. But it is hard not to focus on wasted time, and my stomach actually doesn’t feel good.
and then this came in my e-mail for no apparent reason:
“hope you have a great summer. Thanks so much for all you've done for my kids these past few years. It's truly appreciated. I think we're even better farmers because of you. :-)”
i believe, lord help thou mine unbelief....
also, 11:30 was 7 hours after I got up.
that's a nice email, for sure!
Do you think you might struggle with feeling you are of worth? What would a day look like where you did not "waste time"?
Chicken lady
7-4-18, 7:30am
Tybee, I have been taking your questions seriously. So, dh has been home a little more and I have been talking with him a lot. “Wasting time” is when I sort of fall into default mode or inertia and do things that are not beneficial to me. It’s not so much the activity - for example, watching silly cat videos because I am tired and need a brain shift is fine. Watching silly cat videos for two hours because I don’t have the sense to turn them off is not fine. There is a point at which rest becomes lack of exercise.... sweeping is a waste of time if the floor hasn’t gotten dirty enough to bother anyone. Eating one chocolate is fine. Mindlessly eating an entire bag of chocolate is bad for me.
not wasting time is engaging in activities that benefit me, even if only with a sense of satisfaction, pleasure, or pride.
dh and I have been talking also about my list and the freezing. He says for him, he often just wants to not do anything, but he feels like I want to do so many things that if freeze up and feel guilty. I told him it’s more that i feel frustrated. I feel guilty about things like laundry and dishes, and food, and unfinished tasks that create problems (or even annoyances) for other people, and then I tend to expend my energy on those things and then I get too tired or overwhelmed for other things.
The freezing up is definitely a big one. Also beginnings and transitions. We have talked a little about how he can help me. I do better during the school year in some ways because I have specific times for(and) specific tasks. He offered to make a daily schedule with me, but I think that is too inflexible.
i am exploring the idea of having him “give” me household tasks - like “do the dishes in the sink and wash jeans” or “make dinner” or “clean bathrooms - but don’t spend more than an hour on it. Start with the shower” (Because I will get started and not feel “done” until every towel is clean and folded and the laundry basket is empty and the toiletries and medications have been purged and organized and the baseboards have been detailed with an old toothbrush. And I will run out of time. - and then I will say, and mean, “I spent all day cleaning the bathroom and you can’t even tell.”) the point being that after I finish whatever the task for the day is, or it’s allotted time, everything else is only allowed if it is really bothering or interesting ME - so I can go ahead and dust the bookshelf if it will give me a sense of satisfaction, or run the dishwasher if I need a clean milk bucket, but that type of thing is not to take priority over going for a walk or playing in my studio, or rearranging my button box if that’s what I feel like doing. And if the thing that I feel like doing results in a giant mess, it’s ok, and if it is bothering him, he will ask me to work on it tomorrow.
he also offered to choose a hobby or activity for me if I get frozen. - “card wool” or “throw pots” or “go to the library” so that even if I don’t feel like doing that thing, I at least have a direction to start moving, and then I can change to something else if I want, but I don’t sit frozen and overwhelmed.
having him do that isn’t about him being the boss of me or anything like that, it’s about, as he put it, me “setting rediculously high expectations and feeling like I should be judged by some unrealistic standard.” And him wanting to provide a more reasonable metric by which I can say “my day was productive and successful because I did <this>” all needs have been met, wants happened also.
Bingo - ridiculously high expectations
Tybee, I have been taking your questions seriously. So, dh has been home a little more and I have been talking with him a lot. “Wasting time” is when I sort of fall into default mode or inertia and do things that are not beneficial to me. It’s not so much the activity - for example, watching silly cat videos because I am tired and need a brain shift is fine. Watching silly cat videos for two hours because I don’t have the sense to turn them off is not fine. There is a point at which rest becomes lack of exercise.... sweeping is a waste of time if the floor hasn’t gotten dirty enough to bother anyone. Eating one chocolate is fine. Mindlessly eating an entire bag of chocolate is bad for me.
not wasting time is engaging in activities that benefit me, even if only with a sense of satisfaction, pleasure, or pride.
dh and I have been talking also about my list and the freezing. He says for him, he often just wants to not do anything, but he feels like I want to do so many things that if freeze up and feel guilty. I told him it’s more that i feel frustrated. I feel guilty about things like laundry and dishes, and food, and unfinished tasks that create problems (or even annoyances) for other people, and then I tend to expend my energy on those things and then I get too tired or overwhelmed for other things.
The freezing up is definitely a big one. Also beginnings and transitions. We have talked a little about how he can help me. I do better during the school year in some ways because I have specific times for(and) specific tasks. He offered to make a daily schedule with me, but I think that is too inflexible.
i am exploring the idea of having him “give” me household tasks - like “do the dishes in the sink and wash jeans” or “make dinner” or “clean bathrooms - but don’t spend more than an hour on it. Start with the shower” (Because I will get started and not feel “done” until every towel is clean and folded and the laundry basket is empty and the toiletries and medications have been purged and organized and the baseboards have been detailed with an old toothbrush. And I will run out of time. - and then I will say, and mean, “I spent all day cleaning the bathroom and you can’t even tell.”) the point being that after I finish whatever the task for the day is, or it’s allotted time, everything else is only allowed if it is really bothering or interesting ME - so I can go ahead and dust the bookshelf if it will give me a sense of satisfaction, or run the dishwasher if I need a clean milk bucket, but that type of thing is not to take priority over going for a walk or playing in my studio, or rearranging my button box if that’s what I feel like doing. And if the thing that I feel like doing results in a giant mess, it’s ok, and if it is bothering him, he will ask me to work on it tomorrow.
he also offered to choose a hobby or activity for me if I get frozen. - “card wool” or “throw pots” or “go to the library” so that even if I don’t feel like doing that thing, I at least have a direction to start moving, and then I can change to something else if I want, but I don’t sit frozen and overwhelmed.
having him do that isn’t about him being the boss of me or anything like that, it’s about, as he put it, me “setting rediculously high expectations and feeling like I should be judged by some unrealistic standard.” And him wanting to provide a more reasonable metric by which I can say “my day was productive and successful because I did <this>” all needs have been met, wants happened also.
It sounds like you guys are very close--that is a wonderful strength you can call upon as move continue to figure out what is important to you and how you want to spend your time.
Your approach to projects sounds like my husband's, who has ADHD. He also has that ADHD hyperfocus thing, which can make it seem like he does not have ADHD, but he has a diagnosis and I was skeptical at first, but I have become a real believer.
I'm struggling with issues of using my time to further my own projects and not those of others. I just bought a Panda planner and am starting using it today. I wonder if you would find that helpful? Just filling out the first page is making me realize how many of my problems with taking action are coming from the fact that there is a lack of clear direction, usually because of conflicting priorities, family and self, etc. Sometimes your descriptions of your days make me think you might be facing a similar time in your life.
For me, I would not/could not involve my husband that way because he already has enough issues of his own, and I don't want him to have any more responsibility for me and my mental health than he does already. I'm prepared to go back to counseling if I can't figure these things out and become happier. But I also might try a life coach (thanks, Catherine for the suggestion, I listened!) because they are more into doing the kind of thing your are looking for--being an accountability partner, coming up with good "next steps", listening non judgmentally and helping you to find the answers within yourself.
But again, I am very admiring of people who are close to their partners and who support their partners in such a loving fashion!
Chicken lady
7-4-18, 4:22pm
I don’t know what a panda planner is, but I have tried hundreds of planners and lists and charts and cards and systems over the years, and clearly none of them has helped. I have made a slight change to how I do my lists in “notes” - instead of cutting what is left and pasting it on the next day, I have been doing “copy paste” because then I can compare the list from a week ago when I come back around and see how many things are done from last week. Also, I can look back and see that yes, my list is long, but that’s partly because of recurring things, and if I look back at yesterday, I can see that all of those recurring things got done.
The thing i don’t understand about the whole therapist/life coach thing, is how is this disinterested stranger supposed to help me? they don’t know me. They are simply reflecting back an image of me that I am drawing for them. How can it mean anything to me if they tell me I am good at somethingfor example? How would they know? (Here has the same issues, which makes it insufficient, but more temporally convenient and basically free) They don’t really care about me - I mean, they have a professional stake in my success, but I am easily replaced by another customer. And will be if I stop paying. And I don’t care about them (why should I care what they think? I’m not keeping house or cooking food for them. They’ve known me what, at best a few hours, how can they really judge my growth or progress and why would that judgement matter to me?)
The other night we had steamed corn and pork for dinner (I just had corn) Dh cooked the pork. So I can tell a life coach that, and (s)he can pass judgement on the nutrition or other adequacy of the meal and the reasonableness if my involvement, and it means nothing. Dh said about 4 times “dinner was delicious” and I finally said “i’m glad, but why do you keep telling me, you cooked it.” And he said “but you put the pork chops front of me and handed me all the stuff I wanted, so it was easy and I could just play around with the spices.” So my brain logs “my approach to dinner made dh happy” which is all I am going for. At that point, I get nothing else out of telling anyone else about it, and if I want to dissect it and figure out what was important about it in order to repeat the experience - the only reasonable authority on that is dh.
it is primarily *because* he judges me that he can be helpful. My own judgement is suspect, therefor I need the judgement of someone I trust. Judgement specific to me from someone who knows and understands and cares about me. Not judgement by an objective observer of how I am doing relative to some abstract norm or standard.
sort of like standards of physical attractiveness - every person and culture has their own. All I really want to know is, am I attractive to the one person I want to attract? Because I don’t care how good my daughter says I look in that skirt, if dh says “that does absolutely nothing for me.” It’s not an attractive skirt.
we went swimming in the pond today. It was fun. Fun is something I have not been experiencing much lately, so that is good (not that i haven’t been doing “fun” things, just that, I haven’t actually been enjoying them on a chemical/emotional level, so why bother?)
I don't think most therapists and life coaches set themselves up to judge their clients, for the most part. I think they try to empower them to get better results in their lives or to stop thinking or acting in a way that causes them pain.
I don't think it's any different from going to a doctor to try to figure out how have a healthier body. I don't see it as though you are buying affection or caring--the caring is a kind of neutral caring that motivates them to help others through a chosen line of work. It's like teaching--you don't judge your students to see if they are worthy of you helping them--you are motivated to help them to achieve their potential. You don't need to know every aspect of their lives or judge them as people to help them.
I'm still in the first day with the panda planner, but so far I like it! You pick what you want to do that day. You categorize things yourself. So I decided to prioritize five things--kill the ants that had shown up and then wash the floors where they showed up, call my parents, do 10 slides for a powerpoint for a class I'm taking, write a letter withdrawing myself from consideration from a job where I had an interview, and go out to get tomato cages and ice cream.
These were my priorities for today. How did they work out, you ask??
Well, I killed the ants this morning and just got around to washing the floor right now. I wasn't going to do it since i got sick from being out in the sun working on the tomato patch, but after a cold bath and lying down for an hour, I felt up to it. I could have beaten myself up for being weak and not doing the floor sooner, but it was 95 degrees and the heat made me sick, so I decided I wouldn't wash the floors at all. I gave myself a pass. Then I said I feel a little better and I'd love to get it done tonight, so I did.
I did not call my parents. My brother emailed me a long email about my parents and that caused a lot of anxiety and I rehearsed several emails back to him and then accomplished one, so that was all of my family I could take for one day.
I did not get the first set of ppt slides. I did read the instructions and get powerpoint working again on my computer and I understand what I have to do tomorrow. But feeling sick from the heat, I gave myself a pass.
I wrote the email for the job. It caused some mild anxiety and pain, but nothing I couldn't deal with, and I have concluded this is the wrong time in my life for that job. Now I can put it behind me.
We did go out to get tomato cages and ice cream but we ended up pricing refrigerators, getting a slurpee, letting my husband grocery shop at his favorite store, where he got antsy from the heat and hunger so he didn't shop, just bought something to eat. We went to lowes and home depot and didn't have the stamina to go buy the tomato cages. We came home and dug up weeds and then replanted volunteer tomatoes and put the cages on. Then I felt sick from the heat and took a bath.
The planner is helping me see patterns to what I am having trouble accomplishing because of mental conflicts. I thought of it because you sound like you are having mental conflicts. Here is the link if you are interested; I may start a thread on it because I'm liking it so far:
https://www.amazon.com/Panda-Planner-Gratitude-Productivity-Management/dp/B013Z5Y70K/ref=sr_1_2_sspa?ie=UTF8&qid=1530752244&sr=8-2-spons&keywords=panda+planner&psc=1
Teacher Terry
7-4-18, 10:50pm
They are nonjudgmental and would be telling you that you are setting yourself up to fail with ridiculously high expectations. I really wonder where they come from but not healthy for anyone.
I’m wondering if you would get a psychiatric assessment, if there’s a diagnosis that medication could help with. I can’t imagine writing a list like that daily.
Chicken lady
7-5-18, 6:17am
So, I find the panda planner very seductive! It is even more complicated than my list. And it combines the list with the journal and meditations I don’t always get to. And right in the first line of the product description, it describes my situation perfectly and tells me most people are in the same situation. Then it promises to help me get my sh*t together and actually do all the things I want to do! (Tone is important, none of this is sarcasm. My initial response is really to fall in love with the thing. It looks really cool.)
so Teacher Terry, if you’re wondering where I get the idea that I should be able to do all this stuff - the culture I live in has been telling me that I can my whole life. I am woman - hear me roar! Also, everybody else does just fine. All I need are the right tools.
my new response is to recognize that this would be another thing I would fail at. And where I am trying to go is the place I finally got to with the hoarding issues, where I truly recognized that no amount of organizational skill and equipment was going to make 100 cubic yards of stuff fit in 50 cubic yards of space.
And Teacher Terry, you keep telling me that about my expectations, and it hasn’t helped at all.
tybee, I think we are using “judge” differently. I absolutely do judge my students. I watch them work, learn as much as I can about them, and give them feedback on wether or not I think they are doing what they should be doing in order to achieve what I think they are capable of and reach their goals. I give them feedback on what I “judge” to be the strengths and weaknesses of their work. And I “judge” them in that I let them know if I think their goals are unrealistic and why. And when they fail I “judge” them on why they failed, and often my judgement is less harsh than their own. And a therapist couldn’t do that for me, because my response would be like that I sometimes get from my students “Ha. You don’t know me. You don’t know what I’m capable of. I refuse to accept that work. Teach me some more skills so I can defy physics.” I need to hear that the work is beautiful. And I need to hear it from someone whose “judgement” I value. I make a difference to two kinds of students - the ones who only need skills and are able to judge their own work with reasonable accuracy, and the ones who love and trust me. I would be the second kind. And my personality is such that the nature of the therapist/patient relationship would preclude any meaningful level of love and trust. A comparable situation for me would be hiring a prostitute - you are guaranteed sex, it might even be good, but what you have isn’t a relationship.
tammy, medication is a blunt instrument to which I am opposed. Also, I have just enough experience and training in mental health to skew the test - as in, given the range of mild psychiatric disorders possible, I can get whatever diagnosis I already think is correct, or avoid it, and which is the truth really? A large part of those assessments are subjective. (I count things, constantly, without choosing to - I know exactly how many steps there are between the school door and my classroom, i walk funny patterns on walkways because it makes me feel more comfortable to avoid the cracks, etc. - do I have OCD? Most people in my life don’t notice those things. The aren’t “disabling” My adult daughter TOLD my dh about the walking. He had never really noticed.) I have bouts of depression, but I am generally able to function just fine. I have characteristics on the Aspbergers spectrum. Apparently I have traits of ADD/ADHD... a diagnosis is only helpful in as far as it allows you to acquire coping skills and eliminate troubling symptoms. My son would have been a slam-dunk for Ritalin. We changed his environment and taught him coping behaviors instead and he “grew out of it” - as many of the kids who are actually put on Ritalin do. My philosophy tends toward “i’m ok, you’re ok, society is sick.”
we we went to see fireworks last night. They were pretty and it was nice, but not emotionally effective (yes, I expect to “feel” something about fireworks.) however, I must be doing better- because look how much I am engaging with other people and ideas!(ok, that was a little sarcastic - this post is ridiculously long)
today i am going to do chores, pen the goat for the 4h kid, figure out a better housing situation for my bucks, fill out a calendar for July and possibly sign up for some fun workshops, work at the food bank, and, dh list - clean the stovetop and the kitty box. The rest of the day (yes, I believe there is a huge chunk of day left) is for fooling around in the pottery studio. Dh is in charge of dinner.
I understand not wanting to take medication. Of course that’s your choice. But when you frequently ask for help and feel stressed out by your daily life, I feel the need to occasionally offer it as a solution. In my view your symptoms do impact your life negatively much of the time, based on the things that you share with us here. That factor is a big consideration in both diagnosis and treatment.
" And my personality is such that the nature of the therapist/patient relationship would preclude any meaningful level of love and trust. A comparable situation for me would be hiring a prostitute - you are guaranteed sex, it might even be good, but what you have isn’t a relationship."
Yes, that's a problem. I get that that is your opinion, but it's too bad that you feel that way, and not how most would characterize the therapist/patient relationship, and guaranteed to make it so that you aren't going to get much help out of a therapist. That's too bad. I also think it's a put-down of the work that therapists do, which I think is incredibly valuable. But everybody is entitled to their opinion!
I think many respond to the things you say with a desire to help and to share what works for them. You then respond with why it won't work for you. I think your rationales and put-downs of the ideas are part of your problems and a coping mechanism, but that is just my opinion, of course.
Please know that I was only motivated by hearing your pain and trying to help, and trying to give you some tools that have worked for me. Or, in the case of the Panda planner, may work for me. I am excited about it and excited that the guy who started it had a TBI, and others who have had TBI's found it really helpful. Part of my medical history is brain injury, so I am always looking for ways to return to how I used to be and function,a nd how to work around my limitations.
I'll bow out of trying to respond to your pain, since I don't want to argue with you about what works or what is helpful to you. As you say, only you can determine that.
Sounds like you are setting up for a great day, especially in the pottery studio!
Chicken lady
7-5-18, 11:11am
Tybee, I actually like the panda planner! I really like it. The problem is, I think I like it the way I like ice cream - I would enjoy it, and I would incorporate it into my life in ways that are bad for me.
that’s about me, not your idea. I hope it works for you.
i’m sorry if people feel like I am shooting them down personally. I am looking for ideas and discussion. I figure most of them aren't going to work, but often in exploring them I do get insights that are helpful. I don’t expect you to be able to find a solution for me because you don’t know me, you don’t see my life, all you have is the little slices I share with you. In that way you are limited in exactly the way the therapist would be. To me, it feels like a discussion and not an argument. (Maybe I should write more about the “why people keep telling me I’m on the autism spectrum” part of my life....)
i think therapists do amazing work. And I am fully in support of them for people who are able to benefit from them. I also think religion can be a powerful force for good in a person’s life. There are times I have thought of how comforting it would be to have that kind of certainty. but I am completely unable to take the leap of faith and drop the cynicism it would require. It’s not an opinion, it’s a personality trait that seems to be hardwired. And yes, I absolutely agree that it is “guaranteed to make it so that [i am not] going to get much help out of a therapist.”
apparently i I have other traits that are guaranteed to piss off the people who are actually willing to throw ideas at me.
here is how I see the exchange - I am short of ideas, so I throw out some basic information - we don’t have 50 years to cover my whole life. someone throws out an idea that works for them or is sparked by something I said. I run the idea by my own experience and either use all or part of it or try to clarify why I can’t use it by providing more information about me. This response has nothing you do with the other person as an individual nor does it indicate skepticism or dismissal of their idea as a solution for them. (My mother in law loves the color orange. She wears a lot of orange clothing. I strongly dislike the color orange and would only wear it if dressing up for Halloween. But I would totally buy her an orange sweater...) I hope the new information will spark new ideas and someone will want to share them with me.
i honestly don’t understand why it would be upsetting to people that their ideas don’t work for me, I am a random stranger on the internet. How can they have an emotional investment in me? They don’t really know me. I’m sure there are well written books that are more valuable in their lives. If I disappear tomorrow, you won’t really miss me. Maybe as much as a cancelled tv show you enjoyed. I could change which parts of my life i share and seem like a completely different person. One of my high school students recently described me as “always happy.”
cleaning the stove was really manageable and satisfying. I may be on to something here - having an editor between me and my list....
i have left:
fill out a calendar for July and possibly sign up for some fun workshops, work at the food bank (2.5 hours), and the kitty box. The rest of the day fooling around in the pottery studio.
Teacher Terry
7-5-18, 12:23pm
So CL you wake up and have one year to live and then you will die. How would you choose to live it? What would be different and what would be the same?
Chicken lady
7-5-18, 12:56pm
Apologies to teacher Terry for deleting this.
fwiw, I feel like you really heard me and totally understand your response.
Teacher Terry
7-5-18, 1:18pm
Wow! Trust me you don’t want to die of Alzheimer’s because you are scared and paranoid all the time. You are scared of the people caring for you and have no clue what is happening. It turns sweet people into being combative. Definitely no more suggestions from me since I can’t relate on any level to your thought process. The definition of insanity is to keep doing the same thing while expecting different results.
mschrisgo2
7-21-18, 1:13pm
CL, how's it going?
Ultralight
7-21-18, 1:16pm
CL, how's it going?
I have been wondering too...
mschrisgo2
7-21-18, 5:54pm
Iris Lilies and Teacher Terry, I was actually inviting CL to step back into a thread that she started (and Ultralight respectfully chimed in).
However, the 2 of you arguing over friends' experiences does not leave any room for CL to respond. Do you see that?
She has specifically asked over and over that you stop voicing your negative judgements of her on her threads. I'm not sure why you both choose to ignore that simple request?
iris lilies
7-21-18, 5:58pm
Iris Lilies and Teacher Terry, I was actually inviting CL to step back into a thread that she started (and Ultralight respectfully chimed in).
However, the 2 of you arguing over friends' experiences does not leave any room for CL to respond. Do you see that?
She has specifically asked over and over that you stop voicing your negative judgements of her on her threads. I'm not sure why you both choose to ignore that simple request?
Hunh, My response doesn't have anything to do with CL and
I was wondering where she is too. But sure,
I will delete my post. No problem!
Teacher Terry
7-21-18, 11:14pm
IL and I were having a discussion. It has nothing to do with CL. Delete away as
I could care less. P
Ultralight
7-21-18, 11:21pm
I think these threads can go on almost endlessly. So there ought to be room for tangents and sidebar convos.
And hopefully at some point we'll hear from CL (and even more hopefully she'll be doing better).
Chicken lady
7-23-18, 6:50pm
Hi, doing better. Taking a break. I felt like I was putting too much energy into trying to communicate. And just aggravating people. Someone died (please skip obligatory expressions of sympathy) Focusing on doing small things. Also checking back mostly to see how Zoe Girl is doing. Daughter is moving away next week.
Teacher Terry
7-23-18, 7:09pm
Glad you are fine:))
You are a smart woman taking a break when needed. It is hard to communicate face to face and even harder online. ZG got through the departure and is on a retreat that she was really forward to doing.
Hi, doing better. Taking a break. I felt like I was putting too much energy into trying to communicate. And just aggravating people. Someone died (please skip obligatory expressions of sympathy) Focusing on doing small things. Also checking back mostly to see how Zoe Girl is doing. Daughter is moving away next week.
mschrisgo2
7-23-18, 8:52pm
Glad to hear you're doing better :)
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