View Full Version : Why do so many workplaces suck
Really I hear about work environments that are not just kinda bad but really toxic. It seems that some of the people who think it is toxic might be able to eventually make things better.
I may be all idealistic, just seems that too many ways to survive are also killing us.
Believe me, I'm not an apologist for this current culture, but I also have no delusions that work should be fun. That's why work is work and fun is fun. If your work is fun, that's icing on the cake, but maybe that's just a Baby Boomer's view. I think Millennials see it differently. I've just always endured what I've had to in order to provide for myself and my family. I took the Serenity Prayer approach: Change what you can, accept what you can't, and learn to discern the difference. It worked for me.
As I said, I would prefer to see a nation of worker cooperatives, and everyone getting along, but if you have the first part, you don't necessarily have the second part. (A lot of my hippie friends who have lived in communes attest to that). People are people and you sometimes have to just figure out how to get along.
Again, this is just my experience. I am not defending horrible work environments. And I don't think this particular culture is sustainable. But my life is my own to build. I am the master of my ship and the master of my fate as it were.
I think it is somewhat part of our instant info culture. Answer right away, be always on and available, do it right now, conflicting demands, etc. Some jobs experience little stability and little time to take a breath and become proficient. In addition, the treatment of employees as merely cogs and pieces of equipment that can be hired or let go as needed does not help.
I remember a boss almost 35 years ago or longer actually tell me he demanded twice as much as he knew could be done. Always remembered that comment.
And lastly, all I can see is top down communication with no involvement of anyone on the lower levels.
I think that top down is part of what shifted this year, not as much taking our feedback. Big change to me in our culture. But maybe I am just hearing from people who are having an extremely hard time.
I expect it to be work, not to love every part of it or to never be challenged on my work. I know the speed is hard for me because i really think things through and plan.
I have also heard our culture in general is getting more narcissistic and that people kn charge tend to already be that way.,....
I understand that among managers, it helps to be a sociopath--humanity really gets in the way.:devil:
ApatheticNoMore
7-5-18, 8:29pm
because there are very few good jobs that pay anything enough to live on just a bunch of gig economy work, so you have to put up with anything under the sun to get any job (being on call, travel all over the world, nightmarish commutes, no vacation, abusive bosses who yell at you etc.) and everyone is afraid (and rightly so!) to leave their jobs no matter if they aren't that good because it could be worse. I used to think this was lack of ambition to just stay at a dead end job that is getting you nowhere forever because you are too afraid or not motivated enough to leave (i mean to leave for another job), but who knew it was actually wisdom. >:(
But I'm just letting off steam, the real answer is well things were maybe never great in our lifetimes, but something really shifted hard after the last recession and has never shifted back.
You endure what you have to endure, but at a certain point I actually literally can't endure anymore, like I could work ok, that's not it, if a hiring manager chose me that would be it. But I can't keep studying more and more and more of stuff I'm sick of at this point, that's why I may have to try to do something else. Like literally you do what you hate until the money doesn't follow anymore and you can't anymore either ...
because there are very few good jobs that pay anything enough to live on just a bunch of gig economy work, so you have to put up with anything under the sun to get any job (being on call, travel all over the world, nightmarish commutes, no vacation, abusive bosses who yell at you etc.) and everyone is afraid (and rightly so!) to leave their jobs no matter if they aren't that good because it could be worse. I used to think this was lack of ambition to just stay at a dead end job that is getting you nowhere forever because you are too afraid or not motivated enough to leave (i mean to leave for another job), but who knew it was actually wisdom. >:(
But I'm just letting off steam, the real answer is well things were maybe never great in our lifetimes, but something really shifted hard after the last recession and has never shifted back.
You endure what you have to endure, but at a certain point I actually literally can't endure anymore, like I could work ok, that's not it, if a hiring manager chose me that would be it. But I can't keep studying more and more and more of stuff I'm sick of at this point, that's why I may have to try to do something else. Like literally you do what you hate until the money doesn't follow anymore and you can't anymore either ...
A few questions:
1. How much money do you need to make a year to be content?
2. Would you move to another city or state for a job?
3. Would you take a job in a different field that you are used to?
4. How simply are you willing to live?
I understand that among managers, it helps to be a sociopath--humanity really gets in the way.:devil:
Jane, you are really right here.
At my places of work the more sociopathic a person is the more promotions they get, the higher their salary. I think sociopathy comes in degrees. And the big dogs are major sociopaths. I also think a form of sociopathy can be learned too, like aspiring big dogs can learn to act sociopathic to get promotions and raises.
Being a manager means you have to be willing, probably even enjoy, making others miserable with extra work, denied vacation days, guilt over taking sick days, and so forth. You have to enjoy manipulating and controlling people.
At my work the most ethical and compassionate folks work thankless jobs and are never considered for a promotion.
We have one big boss at work, very much a dark triad personality. And people fairly openly refer to him as a sociopath. He is the youngest person to ever reach this height in the organization too. People truly fear having to work for him.
While I will agree that sociopathy currently is enjoying a surge among managers and executives at all levels, having been a manager myself, I think there's another side to the view here.
Being a manager means you have to be willing, probably even enjoy, making others miserable with extra work, denied vacation days, guilt over taking sick days, and so forth. You have to enjoy manipulating and controlling people.
As a manager, you are responsible for making sure the work gets done. Sometimes it's not always the amount of work you -- or the people who report to you -- expected it to be. Sometimes emergencies happen. In today's "never-enough-people-on-the-bench" staffing model, most employees have defined responsibilities and skill sets. Having Joe substitute for Joan on a project may mean Joe operating out of his expertise, taking longer and possibly making more mistakes in addition to trying to get his previous workload done.
Denied vacation days/guilt over sick days? Again, the lean staffing model and uncertain workloads make it difficult to allow vacation days whenever people want to take them. I tried hard to honor the "we already paid for the cruise" requests but the "mental health days" sometimes got a 'no'.
Sick days? One of the people reporting to me -- our sole guy on evening coverage -- was prone to calling in sick, sometimes for days at a time. Not much opportunity for me to ask (or draft) someone to take on his shift. Yet our group was charged with being available to support the rest of the company. His absence meant salespeople weren't sending in orders; customers weren't getting responses from tech support -- and my group was not getting paid for the service we were not providing. I suppose handling that would be easier for a sociopath. But not all managers are sociopaths.
Being a successful manager does involve "manipulating and controlling" people. You can say it in the pejorative manner I think it's being used here. Or you can see it in terms of someone being responsible for yoking the energy of several people whose goals don't always match the company's.
Some folks are there to collect their paycheck and they'll do what they have to do, but they'll never look far enough ahead to figure out and take the next step. Some folks do excellent work but the work has to be very well defined for them; others just need their piece of the jigsaw puzzle and they'll figure out what it looks like and how it should fit. Some folks are on their own power trip or are just hacked off at life and their goals are not at all your group's goals. All of these people need to know what's expected of them; all of them need their own form of motivation provided for them; all of them remain individuals in all of their positive glory and negative attributes.
I agree that lots of workplaces suck. Even places that used to be great suck. And sociopaths are far too popular these days. But I would draw the line at a general rule that anyone who is a manager must enjoy making people miserable.
Jane, you are really right here.
At my places of work the more sociopathic a person is the more promotions they get, the higher their salary. I think sociopathy comes in degrees. And the big dogs are major sociopaths. I also think a form of sociopathy can be learned too, like aspiring big dogs can learn to act sociopathic to get promotions and raises.
Being a manager means you have to be willing, probably even enjoy, making others miserable with extra work, denied vacation days, guilt over taking sick days, and so forth. You have to enjoy manipulating and controlling people.
At my work the most ethical and compassionate folks work thankless jobs and are never considered for a promotion.
We have one big boss at work, very much a dark triad personality. And people fairly openly refer to him as a sociopath. He is the youngest person to ever reach this height in the organization too. People truly fear having to work for him.
My son feels exactly like you and Jane do. We just had this conversation the other day. DH and I disagreed with the generalization. Of course there are jerks everywhere, but in general people don't take managerial positions just for the sheer pleasure of making their underlings' lives miserable. I've had many managers, and I could say that most of them were wonderful people. My first boss when I got into market research at age 46 was (is) one of the finest people I know. As a manager, she was pleasant, caring, knew exactly when to let me do my thing and when I needed a little more of her involvement. She taught me, she laughed with me, she praised me as if I were her daughter (her being MY daughter was the more likely scenario age-wise, but point is she was very, very nurturing.) I would almost tattoo her name on my arm. "WWJD" (What Would "J.." Do?)
I could also give Boss Hall of Fame awards to two of my bosses at my first job at a major broadcasting network at NBC; also to a fantastic mentor of a boss when I worked on a college campus; and definitely to the woman who gave me market research job; and two of the subsequent bosses I got at that same company.
I would give honorable mentions to 2 of my bosses at the chemical corporation I worked at, even though I HATED the company itself.
Maybe I was just lucky, but I think a blanket attitude that managers are all manifestations of Simon LeGree is just patently false, and leads us down yet another counterproductive road of "us" vs "them"
ToomuchStuff
7-6-18, 8:40am
I have also heard our culture in general is getting more narcissistic and that people kn charge tend to already be that way.,....
Really? I wouldn't have noticed (sarcasim): selfie!
It certainly seems to be easier to be amoral as the money is, if your going to catch it.
I would say 20 or even 30 years ago I had nuturing or helpful bosses. In the last 10 years in particular, I can't say the same. There is more of a tranactional rather than relationship focus ie its "what have you done for me lately". Managers are also expected to manage more people in the past, and I think are under even more pressure from their bosses to do the impossible. I see good managers either get burned out and leave or slowly become more cynical about their futures, while this sort of thing doesn't bother the sociopathic ones.
I've had 4 managers in the last 16 months (all at the same place). Three of the four never even had regular meetings with me. Latest boss (because the manager in between left and will not be replaced) hasn't even acknowledged me in any way in the month or so I've worked for him. I'm just hoping to make it successfully to next summer and then possibly retire.
Teacher Terry
7-6-18, 9:04am
In my 15 years with the state only one of my bosses was a jerk and we all did the happy dance when he left.
I wouldn't say it is all managers, I am both an employee and a manager myself. I know one former staff person told me I had no empathy at all because she was out again and I was just focused on covering the program (she jaywalked with head phones in and was hit by a car). She was surprised that a good reason for missing work did not guarantee her a job, So I know that people are put in difficult positions all over. Since I am out on medical leave for a mental breakdown at work I kinda know this, on one hand I understand they just put me in a situation they needed someone, on the other hand there was a lot of opportunity to support that was not even attempted.
What I am seeing is that the basic caring behaviors are not as apparent or supported in many places. And that the work load and speed has become unmanageable for many places. In my case education is driven now by business models and a general lack of respect for educators. We can really feel it.
And still bosses are the #1 reason people leave jobs, or stay in them.
Too many years as a manager has led me to certain opinions:
Excellent managers are rare. Excellent subordinates are even more rare.
An employee’s value to the organization tends to be inversely proportionate to the degree of whining and second-guessing emitted.
Work does not equal family. You forget that at your peril.
If you need someone to blame for your unhappiness, your boss makes an excellent focal point.
It is highly unlikely that you are a misunderstood genius who truly could do it better if only they’d listen.
Look for fulfillment on your own time. We aren’t paying you to self-actualize.
Work does not equal family. You forget that at your peril.
+1
I used to have to tell my husband that all the time when he owned a small business and had about 8 employees. He would take it personally if they didn't treat him like their best bud. In a scarily Trumpian-style reaction, he was once angry when he found out one of them was looking for another job--he felt like she was being disloyal to him.
I repeatedly told him you may like them, and they may like you, but they are not your FRIENDS. They are your EMPLOYEES. They owe you NOTHING except a job well done. It took him forever to digest that.
In my case education is driven now by business models and a general lack of respect for educators. We can really feel it.
And still bosses are the #1 reason people leave jobs, or stay in them.
Agreed. I feel sorry for you educators today. I've seen some of my educator friends retire early because the rewards are so small for the administrative hassles and the lack of autonomy they have in doing their jobs. And throw in the lack of support from parents.
Teacher Terry
7-6-18, 10:36am
When I worked for the state there were 3 evaluators. As people left they did not replace them and eventually I was doing the work of 3. I did that for 5 years and was burned out. When I retired the person left quickly, next person said I won’t even try to do that much work. She stayed 2 years and left. Our state is lean on workers but not supervisors. Too many chiefs.
I think that's part of why I'm afraid to get a new job. I work alone at the church and I'm admin over everything. Not sure I'd make a good employee in an office with others these days.
iris lilies
7-6-18, 11:15am
Agreed. I feel sorry for you educators today. I've seen some of my educator friends retire early because the rewards are so small for the administrative hassles and the lack of autonomy they have in doing their jobs. And throw in the lack of support from parents.
More than one person has told me that they work in parochial schools despite lower pay because parents of their students are on board with educational goals. They feel as though parents are on their team.
Not so much that in public schools, it is too often an adversarial relationship between school and parents, at least in the eyes of parents.
Welcome to modern day slavery. How many times have you gone in a store which is busy with customers?
One girl, who may or may not be out of high school, manning the register with a long line of angry customers?
All too common here. These kids are being mistreated. As are many of us these days.
More than one person has told me that they work in parochial schools despite lower pay because parents of their students are on board with educational goals. They feel as though parents are on their team.
Not so much that in public schools, it is too often an adversarial relationship between school and parents, at least in the eyes of parents.
Unfortunately I cannot take much less than I already make, and that is pretty decent for education but the private sector tends to make more I think. Charter schools are the big deal here, I don't know these days, lots of lower paying jobs.
I would like to work in restorative justice or family liaison work. At least in my district all the family liaison jobs need Spanish. I probably should have taken 4 years of college Spanish instead of French.
It all started going downhill in the late eighties/early nineties, with the global competition model, the ascendance of technology, and the ramping up of the profit-uber-alles mindset. I was lucky to (mostly) escape the corporate arena then, without having suffered under a bunch of boot-lickers. Most of my (lower-level) managers were tolerable to outstanding, but I could see the handwriting on the wall.
It all started going downhill in the late eighties/early nineties, with the global competition model, the ascendance of technology, and the ramping up of the profit-uber-alles mindset. I was lucky to (mostly) escape the corporate arena then, without having suffered under a bunch of boot-lickers. Most of my (lower-level) managers were tolerable to outstanding, but I could see the handwriting on the wall.
Yeah. The late seventeen eighties and early nineties with all that global competition, new technologies and capitalism. If it weren’t for guys like James Watt and Adam Smith, work would still have value and dignity.
ApatheticNoMore
7-6-18, 1:04pm
A few questions:
1. How much money do you need to make a year to be content?
i've thought of this, and it is how much money I need to make without saving anything. It's not 100% determined really, I'd have to think more about it. I think at this point my existing 401k and social security might have to do for me as far as savings. But basics are easy to figure but one cuts close with any margin for error (yearly rent increases of any amount they want them to be, car needs repair (I had to get a newish car recently though), etc.). And of course if the job doesn't have health insurance then it would have to be more. 40k might be safe with health insurance, that's after looking at the calculation for taxes, yea gotta take those taxes into account. Roommates? Yes that would be less. Live with my boyfriend? His long term plan sometimes seems to be for us both to live with his mom. I'm ranting, but this was literally something he has mentioned twice to me. Needless to say I'm not giving up anything I have to live with my boyfriends mom. :0! Call that what you will ... needlessly stubborn ok ... but although she isn't horrible, I'm not living with my boyfriends mom.
2. Would you move to another city or state for a job?
i might be alone to do so but there are times I have thought of it although certainly not to the point of making plans. I would certainly rather not. And on paper I'm more employable than my boyfriend. So I'm over 40 and maybe don't have the most impressive credentials in the world. I don't have a criminal record in my background though.
3. Would you take a job in a different field that you are used to?
uh those are the only skills of any sort I actually have. Go back to school. Yes I've thought of it. There is like a long waiting time to actually get in anywhere that isn't a community college (the problem with community college is you can't get a 4 year degree from them). But I could hardly be sure whatever I am studying is something I could get a job in either. I think at this point I could study the most practical thing in the world and find noone is really hiring entry level in that or not at my age anyway. The job descriptions are really so fiddly and picky that it sometimes seems a miracle anyone gets hired (only if you have this exact industry experience etc., sometimes it seems they are literally only hiring from direct competitors, yea job searching will drive you crazy).
The only way we can think of jobs sometimes seems in terms of being trained for a field and skillsets etc., but that has little to do with what anyone is hiring for it seems (they want identical experience). So the two lines: our way of thinking about job training and what it actually takes to get a job don't ever intersect it sometimes seems.
4. How simply are you willing to live?
Fairly simply. I like to eat fairly healthy so that's some money. I probably need to spend some on clothes to be somewhat presentable for work. I probably still put quarters in the dryer often rather than drying clothes by hanging them up in the apartment but I could try to change maybe (but it doesn't work in winter, the clothes don't dry). There is little else to cut short of roommates really. Vacations? Nope haven't taken one for 5 years. Cable? Nope don't have it. Entertainment? Almost never spend money on entertainment, we do free stuff. Hair cuts? Nope don't get them. Hair dye? Nope hair not grey now, maybe someday. Internet, yes but it's cheap and slow, also hard to imagine being employable without it. Car? Paid for and hard to imagine being employable without it. Gym? I like a gym membership and it's good for both my appearance and my long term health (my bones ha) so on the fence on that one. Heating and cooling sometimes? Yes, I want that. Buy books now and then? Yes I do have that habit, it's not a ton of money. Subscriptions? Nope. Cell phone, yea probably, it's a dumb phone with no data, but can't be employable for *some* jobs without one (i've been on call for two of my jobs so far). Truthfully I don't have the ultimate answer, I'm thinking about it, but those are my thoughts.
ApatheticNoMore
7-6-18, 1:19pm
It all started going downhill in the late eighties/early nineties, with the global competition model, the ascendance of technology, and the ramping up of the profit-uber-alles mindset. I was lucky to (mostly) escape the corporate arena then, without having suffered under a bunch of boot-lickers. Most of my (lower-level) managers were tolerable to outstanding, but I could see the handwriting on the wall.
managers are seldom the problem but the mangers who simply are out to lunch and don't manage anything, ie they don't do their jobs pretty much, are a problem. What fills the power vacuum at that point isn't pretty (it's palace coups and intrigue all day long).
Late 80s and 90s that might be (I was never employed before then). But I remember good economies during those periods too. 2008 changed much though.
Yeah. The late seventeen eighties and early nineties with all that global competition, new technologies and capitalism. If it weren’t for guys like James Watt and Adam Smith, work would still have value and dignity.
Conservatives: always a couple of centuries behind.
so, I have to say, hearing everyone saying how much worse it is now than it was 10 years ago, I don't have a right to an opinion because I opted out and joined the gig economy in 2008 and with great results. I feel no pressure for long-term "boot-licking" as Jane put it. My projects last from 6 to 8 weeks, and hopefully my client relationships last longer than that, and so far they have.
But right now, today, I've finished two interviews, and it's totally up to me whether I spend the rest of the afternoon working on a big report due in two weeks, go out and weed my garden, or try to find out where my kids are and enjoy some time with them.
If anyone can do it, I would say, do it. I think what we need is maybe small networks of independent workers who can help support and guide each other through some of the challenges. I would love to see the return of guilds and also, for the more security-minded, an increase in worker co-operatives.
Conservatives: always a couple of centuries behind.
Liberals: always thinking the world began with them.
Liberals: always thinking the world began with them.
No, not so. But we are more than happy to include you on the Love Boat, LDAHL!
No, not so. But we are more than happy to include you on the Love Boat, LDAHL!
Now I’ll have that damned theme song in my head all afternoon.
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