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The Beast Revelation
This letter is dedicated to all Christians.
The following letter is a summary of Revelation 13. Its purpose is to show the method used in finding the conclusions which have been stated. Nothing new has been added from my previous letters. It is more of a compilation of them all. This writing is the same material in different words. The Bible uses this same method of explanation. There are four Gospels. In each you see a different view of the same material. This can be beneficial because the meaning becomes more exact. Although, if this is a first time reader, then this will all be news to you. With that in mind, here we go.
The first thing that should be addressed when doing any study of Bible prophecy is what questions do I intend to answer. Some of these questions can seem a little simplistic, but their answers are much more complicated. In my studies there were only a few questions that I saw as needing an answer. My questions were very simple. First, who is this individual who is identified by the number 666? Second, who is the false prophet and how does he make the whole world worship the beast whose number is 666. Another question has to do with these same individuals. Could these two individuals be the same person, or for that matter Satan himself? Where is Satan during all this? That last question is very important. It actually goes straight to the answer of all the questions. Finally, when would someone expect to see these individuals on the Earth? Literally, what time frame should I see them? Those are the questions. The answers are much more involved.
This narrative will attempt to show how the answers are figured out. These answers can be seen from events that happen in the nightly news. This leads me to a key, which most of us know, but most of us forget. The Bible is a history book. Some events have happened, while some are waiting to happen. It is the ones that have not happened that we are most concerned with. Here is another key. By the way, these keys I speak of are keys to understanding. The Lord spoke in parables. The reason he gave was that it was for some to know the mysteries of God, while it was for some to know not. In hearing, they do not hear. In seeing, they do not see. I compare it to telling the truth, while hiding it at the same time. Many of the parables that the Lord spoke he immediately gave an answer to. He showed how he used certain symbols and words to describe subjects and then gave their meanings. Now for the punch line. The Lord also spoke in parables that he did not identify. These parables go straight to the hidden meaning of these end times. Another key is word substitution. An example of this is a pretty well-known item from Revelation. This word substitution deals with Revelation 13:1. The beast has seven heads and ten horns. In Revelation 17 those heads and horns are defined. The heads are identified as mountains, while the horns are identified as kings. This changes the whole picture of what the beast is symbolically to what it is literally. Now Rev.13:1 can be read as follows with just the items discussed thus far. And I saw a beast rise up out of the sea having seven mountains and ten kings. That is a simple and easy word substitution. Know that this will happen many times throughout the Bible.
Now, getting back to the questions. The question is, where is Satan? If this question can be answered, you can eliminate some others. Some prophecy teachers believe that Satan is the beast, or that Satan is the false prophet. This interpretation is misleading, and it also creates a stumbling block in the path to a proper interpretation. I almost always get this question. How can you know who the beast is when he cannot be revealed? 2nd Thess. Chapter 2 states that he cannot be revealed, until something is removed first. Most scholars have this part right. That is a picture of the Rapture. What they have wrong is that Satan and the beast are not the same individual. Satan cannot be revealed until after the rapture, but he is not the beast. Therefore, I can identify the beast and his false prophet. People say prove it. So I did. I told them how to understand using the keys that I have mentioned. Revelation 13 is a parable, but God is not giving the definition, or the explanation. This one is for us to figure out. Ok, so where is Satan? In the book of Job, we get a view of Satan's abilities. In one scene, he is discussing with God about Job. Question, where is God? He is in heaven. Also, in his conversation with God Satan is talking as if he knows and has seen Job. God declares that he can do whatever he wants to Job, but he was not allowed to kill him. Now we know something else about Satan. He also has access to the Earth, and can affect peoples lives. So, it appears that Satan can be everywhere he wants to be, on Earth or in heaven. We know Satan and his angels will be cast out of heaven as per Revelation 12. This would further the idea that he is now in heaven. We also see Satan one other time, when he tempted Christ during his time on Earth. It says that he was taken to the wilderness to be tempted of Satan? Most people, and rightly so, have thought the wilderness to be a place on Earth, but this is a parable I believe. The Lord was in the wilderness and was tempted by Satan, but the wilderness is in heaven. This parable is read in Isaiah 35. It is the wilderness and the solitary place where the redeemed of the Lord walk. So, this last item being the most hard to prove, suffice it to say, that when Rev.12 says Satan will be cast out, he must be there in heaven to be cast out. Alright, now we can answer a couple questions. One, Satan is himself, and he is in heaven. Therefore, he is not the beast or the false prophet. These three work together, but each has his own identity.
Now to dissect Revelation 13. As I have already stated, Revelation 13 is a word substitution parable. The seven heads are seven mountains and the ten horns are ten kings. Ok, we know from this description that the beast as described is a group of possibly ten countries. This brings me to another point. There are three definitions for the beast in Revelation 13. The first is a group of countries rising up out of the sea. The second is in Rev.13:11 and is a beast with two horns (kings). Remember horns are kings as per Rev. 17. Finally, there is a beast who is identified by the number 666. It is this last beast that causes all to receive a mark and that no man can buy and sell save he who has the mark, his number, or his name. There are three items here. Nowhere does it say that the mark is the number 666. This might have been a good guess 20 yrs. ago , but it is pretty hard to believe. Imagine people running around with a mark of 666 on their right hands. It sounds like a cartoon, but this is what the prophecy teachers want you to believe. Ok, another problem that sounds like a cartoon is the interpretation of the word "all." They want you to believe that no man could buy or sell if they did not worship the beast and take his mark. Interpreting the word "all" to mean everyone in the world. This is not the case. For one, we know that the beast is made up of only possibly ten countries. Everyone in this world lives in roughly 190 countries. I don't think we could possibly mean everyone. How about, all of those people concerned with the mark. Also, how do you cause all people concerned to receive a mark, and why? The most obvious way to mark everyone is at the voting booth. All people, rich and poor, small and great, or free and bond are potential voters. So, Mahmoud Abbas was elected president of the Palestinian Authority, and in the process all voters received an indelible ink mark on their right hands. This mark was to prevent double voting and corruption in the election. Ok, we have a mark. It is not 666. At this point he fits the part, but not completely. Still, there is no ready identification of 666 concerning him. This election was in January 2005.
The Beast Revelation part two
Back to Rev.13. We have seven mountains and ten kings. Prophecy teachers want us to believe that a city with seven mountains is the seat of the antichrist and he rules with ten nations. Their logical conclusion was the Europe Union and the Vatican. This started the revived Roman empire theory. This theory has been around since the reformation. It is hard to believe this charade has gone on so long. Teachers are still preaching the Revived Roman Empire. This theory had some validity before the twentieth century and now has to be eliminated. None of these teachers could have predicted the fall of the Ottoman Empire and its division into so many separate sovereign nations. Back to our word substitution. There is an interesting item here concerning the word mountains in scripture. The word mountains can have two meanings. It can be either a mountain range, or a nation. This is the hardest part of this whole exercise, trying to figure out what mountains are describing. Teachers will have you believe it is a city with seven mountains. In actual fact, mountains here are referring to nations. This also pertains to the head wound. The wound was not a literal head wound at all, but was a nation that was wounded. The beast's head or nation was wounded and was healed. This is the Palestinian Authority after the beginning of the Oslo Accords. The land that Israel possessed was now being given back to the Palestinians and the beast's nation is being healed. Ok, so now I have seven nations and ten kings, Rev.13:1. Why do I have three more kings than nations? It seems I have a king for each nation, but three left over. In Daniel in says the beast subdued three kings. These three kings don't necessarily have to be from different countries. It seems so, but is not expressly mentioned. It is another parable. The three kings who were subdued by the beast were Israeli Prime Ministers. These three Prime Ministers all served during the seven years of the Oslo Accords and were voted out of office because of terror perpetrated during Yasser Arafat's rule. Now, I am down to seven nations. These seven nations will wage war. I can easily see seven nations that will wage war here very soon; Syria, Lebanon, Jordan, Egypt, Iran and the Palestinian Authority or Iraq, and there opponent Israel. This is exactly the same beast that is presented in Rev.17:10, just in a slightly different appearance. There are seven kings, five are fallen. This means five kings were defeated in war. Israel is referred to the "one that is," and the one that came later is the Palestinian Authority. This is a description of Israel's war for Independence. Literally, this was the beast being born. The war in 1967 is the beast rising up out of the sea in Rev.13:1. It was the unresolved issues of this conflict that resulted in the Oslo Accords of 1993. This seven year peace treaty was confirmed by Yitzhak Rabin and Yasser Arafat.
Now, there is another beast in Rev.13:11. This beast has two horns or kings. This is a picture of the Palestinian Authority after the elections of January 2006. This is when Hamas ran in the elections and won a majority in parliament. Now the P.A. was a country with two kings. Abbas was the President and Ismail Haniyeh was the Prime Minister. Here is where the problem with money came about. Western Nations did not want to donate money to a known terrorist organization so looked for a way they could still fund Abbas's P.A., but not let any money get to Hamas. This is when the number 666 identified an individual. The temporary international mechanism was adopted on June 16, 2006. This program allowed Western Nations to donate funds directly to Abbas, while bypassing Hamas. If you were a member of Fatah, or on Abbas's payroll you got paid. This is how the people were allowed to buy and sell. They received salaries, whereas before the mechanism, they had no way of getting paid from the Government. Hamas did not receive salaries. Also, Hamas did not receive the mark of the beast. They boycotted the elections for President in Jan. 2005.
It is more obvious who is being talked about the closer you get to the end.
In conclusion, to my three beast definitions. Mahmoud Abbas fits all three definitions. He was a member of the P.A. when it was formed. He took over from Yasser Arafat after his death. He was one of the two kings of the second beast in Rev.13:11. Lastly, he is the one identified by the number 666, which could have been Arafat had he lived.
Now, concerning the the false prophet. The following four verses below all refer to the false prophet, Ismail Haniyeh.
Rev.13:11- and I beheld another beast coming up out of the Earth, and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
Rev.13:12- And he exercises all the power of the first beast before him, and causes the earth and them which dwell therein, to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.
Rev.13:13- "And he does great wonders, so that he makes fire come down from heaven on the Earth in the sight of men".
Rev.13:15- And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast, should be killed.
Hamas exercised all the power of the first beast (Abbas's P.A.) because they were now an equal partner in the Government. Also, the leader of Hamas caused them to worship or honor the first beast because Hamas would not honor the first beast. The first beast was the PA without Hamas as a member. The image of the beast is what the Government of Mahmoud Abbas represented. Verse 12 does not mention the image yet, we are just informed that the false prophet caused them to worship the first beast. Verse 14 and 15 gives the details of how that worshipping or honor was to commence. An image was created of the first beast that he (the false prophet) caused to be honored. This image of the beast is three items; the recognition of Israel, the honoring of all prior Palestinian agreements, and a renunciation of terror.
The last question I think that needs addressed is how do you know the timing is right? Meaning, there have been so many translations, how do you know that this one is correct? This is a question I always get asked. The answer, in my mind, is sort of a mix between two different prophecies. The first is the seven day prophecy as recorded in Genesis. It is a similitude between this and the amount of recorded time that has already happened on Earth. In the book of Peter, God says one day to him is as a thousand years. If that idea is applied to the Genesis creation, everyday that God created something one thousand years passed. Finally, on the last day he rested from his work, and his rest was one thousand years or one of God's days. This was one full week or 7000 years. After God's rest he started his work again, and he created Adam. Starting with Adam, it was approximately 4000 years to the time of Christ. Also, we know that Christ was here roughly 2000 years ago. If God was to be consistent with his one week schedule, then we could expect his day of rest to fall somewhere after the year two thousand. 4000 plus 2000 is six days and on the seventh he rested for one thousand years. This is not an exact estimate, but it can put you in the right ballpark when searching for the correct timing of Revelation. This is the estimate. The next item is more exact. Daniel 9:27 says that he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week. Many in Hebrew is Rab. This was a covenant confirmed with Yitzhak Rabin. It was the beginning of land for peace, or the Oslo Accords. When you see this agreement happen you should be aware that this prophecy will last seven years. There is only one problem with this item. Prior to it happening, everyone thought that the end of the seventh year of the agreement God would return and begin his rest. Well, that did not happen. The reason was a logical misinterpretation. It just mentions that this agreement must occur along with the prophecies mentioned, not that they would all happen and end on the last day of the seventh year. This has thrown everyone watching off-course for a time. Although, this was not such a terrible mistake if the watcher could see the right answer and get his, or her perspective back. When you have these two items coinciding at the expected time, then you know Revelation can be interpreted with accuracy. The events should start happening, as they have, as I have recorded in this letter.
May God bless all who read this letter.
Michael
Alan, I am confused about something about this post-- a little tag shows up in the corner on the page that lists the new posts, and when I clicked on it, it gave keywords--what is this about?
Alan, I am confused about something about this post-- a little tag shows up in the corner on the page that lists the new posts, and when I clicked on it, it gave keywords--what is this about?Users are able to assign tags or keywords to their threads. In theory, this functionality can be used to search for posts by tags. It would appear that michae1, who was just approved to post this morning, used that functionality on his very first post.
michae1, as a new member you may not be aware of our forum guidelines which do prohibit proselytizing. I'll admit I haven't yet read the two posts in their entirety so I'm not sure what message you're trying to communicate, but please keep that in mind for future posts.
Thanks, learned something new about how the forum works with respect to keywords!
Users are able to assign tags or keywords to their threads. In theory, this functionality can be used to search for posts by tags. It would appear that michae1, who was just approved to post this morning, used that functionality on his very first post.
michae1, as a new member you may not be aware of our forum guidelines which do prohibit proselytizing. I'll admit I haven't yet read the two posts in their entirety so I'm not sure what message you're trying to communicate, but please keep that in mind for future posts.
Ok, I'll keep that in mind. I hope my post don't stretch your rules too much.
Ok, I'll keep that in mind. I hope my post don't stretch your rules too much.
Michae1:
Could you sum up your two rather long posts into about 5 sentences? I am quite intrigued!
Michae1:
Could you sum up your two rather long posts into about 5 sentences? I am quite intrigued!
Usually, when you get an interpretation from scholars, they make it sound so difficult that the average guy feels overwhelmed by the information and has to rely on them for their insight. I don't want to go that far. I want you to be able to see what I am seeing and prove it to yourself. What I am saying in a simple, short explanation, which is as short as I can make it with all the main issues involved is that: I can tell you who the beast and the false prophet are. I cannot tell you who Satan is. Also, The time of the end is getting very close. If you only get those ideas from my post I will have succeeded. I am a not telling anyone what to believe, believe what you want. I am giving an educated interpretation after years of study. I want anyone who wants this information to have it. I like that you are intrigued. That's nice...
I can tell you who the beast and the false prophet are.
Okay, who is the beast? And who is the false prophet?
I cannot tell you who Satan is.
Can you make an educated guess as to who Satan is? Is it Lucifer?
Also, The time of the end is getting very close.
How close are we talking? And what might it be like?
Okay, who is the beast? And who is the false prophet?
Mahmoud Abbas. Ishmael Haniyeh.
[Can you make an educated guess as to who Satan is? Is it Lucifer?
No. Yes.
How close are we talking? And what might it be like?
Within a couple years. It is different for each individual.
Mahmoud Abbas. Ishmael Haniyeh.
I have never met them. I have been to Palestine though.
Within a couple years. It is different for each individual.
What might it be like for me? Here is a few snippets about me:
I am a 38 year old, heterosexual, white male, American. I am also an atheist.
Teacher Terry
7-7-18, 6:40pm
Wrong forum dude!
I have never met them. I have been to Palestine though.
What might it be like for me? Here is a few snippets about me:
I am a 38 year old, heterosexual, white male, American. I am also an atheist.
If you don't believe in a God, how are you going to save yourself?
Wrong forum dude!
What does this mean? Is this a form of intimidation?
What might it be like for me?
I am a 38 year old, heterosexual, white male, American. I am also an atheist.
Oh, oh! Do me!
I am a 55 year old, queer, white-ish intersexed person, American. I am a Taoist follower of Óðinn.
UL, shaking my head at you. This reminds me of a boy years ago who encountered a snapping turtle and just for the heck of it, got a stick and tormented it.
Oh, oh! Do me!
I am a 55 year old, queer, white-ish intersexed person, American. I am a Taoist follower of Óðinn.
The letter was written to Christians...
I am an unchurched antinomian Protestant who has dabbled in Buddhism. Do I count?
I am an unchurched antinomian Protestant who has dabbled in Buddhism. Do I count?
What you believe is not my concern. This is information for Christians.
So Protestants are not Christians?
So Protestants are not Christians?
From my Jesuit training, apparently the post isn't directed at Catholics either....
So Protestants are not Christians?
I never said that. I said I wrote the letter for Christians. Protestants are Christians.
This is not a very Christian place really by numbers, Lots more variety of belief
by a 51 yo, hetero cis-female, Buddhist Witch,
OK, I'll join in the fun.
As a senior white femaie longtime Christian, I am already saved so don't need any advice. Ooops, forgot the heterosexual part, sorry.
OK, I'll join in the fun.
As a senior white femaie longtime Christian, I am already saved so don't need any advice. Ooops, forgot the heterosexual part, sorry.
Razz, did you read my post?
Williamsmith
7-7-18, 10:16pm
Michae1 ... you have a “dizzying intellect.” I find it “inconceivable!”
https://youtu.be/rMz7JBRbmNo
Michae1 ... you have a “dizzying intellect.” I find it “inconceivable!”
That was very funny. I see your point...
τὰ μὲν ἀπλανέα τῶν ἄστρων καὶ τὸν ἅλιον μένειν ἀκίνητον, τὰν δὲ γᾶν περιφέρεσθαι περὶ τὸν ἅλιον.
Ultralight
7-7-18, 11:29pm
UL, shaking my head at you. This reminds me of a boy years ago who encountered a snapping turtle and just for the heck of it, got a stick and tormented it.
I am actually rather offended by this. I saw a huge snapping turtle today while I was fishing -- beautiful animal, really. I paused my fishing just to watch it swim on by. I remarked to another fisherman: "See that turtle?! Wow!"
As for Michae1, we can discuss his post like we'd discuss any other. I mean him only goodwill. I do have questions for him though. He can choose to answer or ignore.
Ultralight
7-7-18, 11:31pm
I never said that. I said I wrote the letter for Christians. Protestants are Christians.
Here is my sincere question. What does god think of a person who lives a Christ-like life but is not a Christian?
Ultralight
7-7-18, 11:32pm
From my Jesuit training, apparently the post isn't directed at Catholics either....
Technically I am still Catholic...
Here is my sincere question. What does god think of a person who lives a Christ-like life but is not a Christian?
Good deeds won't help if you deny God. You cannot work your way to heaven.
Numerology can be manipulated to "prove" anything. When I was a child certain Latin inscriptions on his crown et cetera were converted into numbers using the letters as Roman numerals to prove that the Pope was the beast with the number of 666. But now with the increasing secularization of American society, given their dwindling numbers evangelicals need allies and have decided that Catholics, who have continued to assimilate over the generations, are acceptable, so the new beast, fitting with the current Islamophobic political climate, is a Palestinian. This also jibes with Trump's courting of the hard right Jewish vote.
What if when we saw numbers, we just saw numbers? Chaim Potok wrote some interesting books about numerological religious folk. One of them ends with the protagonist seeing that clouds are just clouds.
I am actually rather offended by this. I saw a huge snapping turtle today while I was fishing -- beautiful animal, really. I paused my fishing just to watch it swim on by. I remarked to another fisherman: "See that turtle?! Wow!"
No offence intended, just amused. Sorry.
As a Believer, I must put in my two cents. If this is Forum: Simple Spirituality & ReligionWhy is it the "Wrong forum dude!"
While I may not agree with the findings, We will all have our personal end time. (Dirt Nap) I knew about the year is as a thousand years, but had never thought to apply it creation. As far as can you be a christian and not go to church. Maybe, but my bible still says "25 (http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-25.htm)not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near." Yes this is the wrong forum, but maybe he dosen't know you yet. And just like the rest of your posts, I will take it with a grain of salt.
My little google search says about 10% of Americans think they will see the end times in their life time. My favorite was "biblical references to climate change and end times". It seems to me like the religious definition of heaven restricts entry to a number of other religions believing in God. Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, and even Catholics have their own requirements beyond accepting the belief of God and Christ as the Savior of man and the rest of us are out. I pretty much get hung up on that. It doesn't seem very Christian.
I'm looking forward to the rapture, personally. :devil:
Teacher Terry
7-8-18, 10:15am
Preaching annoys me and so does trying to convert people. I had to hang a big no soliciting sign with grumpy cat giving his middle finger before the Mormon’s and Jehova witness’s decided it was a bad idea to ring my doorbell on a weekly basis.
As far as can you be a christian and not go to church. Maybe, but my bible still says "[/COLOR]25 (http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-25.htm)not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near." [/QUOTE]
Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
Matthew is quoting Jesus. Hebrews is by an unknown author.
As far as can you be a christian and not go to church. Maybe, but my bible still says "[/COLOR]25 (http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-25.htm)not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near."
Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
Matthew is quoting Jesus. Hebrews is by an unknown author.[/QUOTE]
Very good come back. I like this reply.
Baldilocks
7-8-18, 12:46pm
As far as can you be a christian and not go to church. Maybe, but my bible still says "[/COLOR]25 (http://biblehub.com/hebrews/10-25.htm)not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near."
Matthew 18:20 "For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them."
Matthew is quoting Jesus. Hebrews is by an unknown author.[/QUOTE]
Very true, but I find I get the most out of the bible when I read the whole book.
Matthew 6:6
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly. King James Version
And don't forget if people are unreceptive to your message to shake the dust off your shoes and leave.
Matthew 24:36:
Περὶ δὲ τῆς ἡμέρας ἐκείνης καὶ ὥρας οὐδεὶς οἶδεν, οὐδὲ οἱ ἄγγελοι τῶν οὐρανῶν οὐδὲ ὁ υἱός, εἰ μὴ ὁ πατὴρ μόνος.
Matthew 24:36:
Περὶ δὲ τῆς ἡμέρας ἐκείνης καὶ ὥρας οὐδεὶς οἶδεν, οὐδὲ οἱ ἄγγελοι τῶν οὐρανῶν οὐδὲ ὁ υἱός, εἰ μὴ ὁ πατὴρ μόνος.
True. That's why I prefer to believe the the Kingdom of God is within me, right here. Right now.
Time is only one dimension in our limited experience, so I'm not focusing on future prophesies. I prefer to focus on the revelations of this moment.
Williamsmith
7-8-18, 4:18pm
True. That's why I prefer to believe the the Kingdom of God is within me, right here. Right now.
Time is only one dimension in our limited experience, so I'm not focusing on future prophesies. I prefer to focus on the revelations of this moment.
I can completely embrace this. But I can also turn this inside out and say that the Kingdom Of God is not only within me and now but extends infinitely outside me into the unlimited universe beyond our earthly home. As an example, the unmanned space probe Voyager 1 has been traveling through our solar system for the past 37 years and is currently poised to pierce the edges of it into interstellar space. Everyday the probe travels 1.5 million more kilometers away from us and could I transport myself onto the probe at any point in the future it would never be far enough away to remove me from a relationship with the creator of the universe within which it travels.
Given this, I can’t get excited about the beast, who or what he may be, when something might happen ....etc. In fact, while anyone else is welcome to define their religion in terms of a limited set of written words issued during the tiniest period of time given the age of the universe.....I’ll try not to put God in a box.
I'm not an atheist, but don't think of God as an entity, but as a life force or form of energy that embodies what we label as goodness or love within the constraints of human language and understanding. Beyond that, my comprehension of God is akin to my understanding of non-linear time or negative energy. It's pretty vague and defies description in our physical way of seeing our world and the way our brain conceives reality.
The biblical allegory of the fall from the garden describes the veil that was placed between us and the divine and that separated us from the animal realm. There is a natural attraction to return to the state of divine or perfection that is confused by our human frailties and free will.
My take in five sentences anyway.
"Foxes have dens and birds have nests, but the Son of Man has no place to lay his head." Luke 9:58
Good deeds won't help if you deny God. You cannot work your way to heaven.
Okay, does it not seem odd to you that your God is so vain that he wants more than anything to be worshiped? Like he prefers people who commit nothing but bad deeds, even evil deeds, to people who don't worship him even though those folks do good deeds?
That is downright twisted.
And if that is the case, who populates heaven? A mix of evil doers and good doers who believed? Sounds a lot like the USA. Why would I grovel to end up in a place a lot like where I am now -- ego maniacal leader and all?
Here is a fun bible quote:
"You may purchase male or female slaves from among the foreigners who live among you. You may also purchase the children of such resident foreigners, including those who have been born in your land. You may treat them as your property, passing them on to your children as a permanent inheritance. You may treat your slaves like this, but the people of Israel, your relatives, must never be treated this way." -- Leviticus 25:44-46 NLT
UL, I think the common belief of most modern Christian is that many of the Old Testament laws were fulfilled or replaced by the coming of the Messiah. You could do your own search of topic and get a better explanation of this than I could give here.
UL, I think the common belief of most modern Christian is that many of the Old Testament laws were fulfilled or replaced by the coming of the Messiah. You could do your own search of topic and get a better explanation of this than I could give here.
I am aware of that common belief. But does that excuse the actions of God during that time period? That is my question to Christians who hold that common belief.
The Old Testament is used, when needed, by "Christian" hypocrites as a blunt instrument. They always seem to overlook the awkward parts about dire punishment for wearing clothes of mixed fibers or touching pigskin. Leviticus is a laugh riot.
As an agnostic, I have occasional thoughts about the existence of God and the vastness of the multiverse, but never a thought about joining an organized religion.
Teacher Terry
7-9-18, 9:37am
I was raised Lutheran and we had to go to classes once a week for 3 years before we could get confirmed. The minister said at one point the Bible was written to help uneducated people with answers to their questions and also how to behave (10 commandments). My mom was not happy about that.
A few generations of my ancestors were Evangelical Lutheran pastors; I have an inordinate amount of religious branches on my family tree. I think they were happy to spend their time sitting and reading--even if it was mostly biblical stuff. Just my guess.
I am aware of that common belief. But does that excuse the actions of God during that time period? That is my question to Christians who hold that common belief.
I probably don't rate very high of the common Christian scale, but I'll tell you what I think. The Bible and especially the old testament has contradictions, errors, and things about people that lived a few thousand years ago that we have trouble understanding now. If you discount the whole thing because of that, you might also be missing some wisdom and maybe some degree of spirituality. It has some historic interest and some lessons and rule about to live a good life that are loving rather than cruel. There are allegories that seem silly if taken at face value, but also some interesting lessons. Some people have found their true God and religion through that, too. The Bible is a decent book that has gotten twisted around with various organized religions.
I probably don't rate very high of the common Christian scale, but I'll tell you what I think. The Bible and especially the old testament has contradictions, errors, and things about people that lived a few thousand years ago that we have trouble understanding now. If you discount the whole thing because of that, you might also be missing some wisdom and maybe some degree of spirituality. It has some historic interest and some lessons and rule about to live a good life that are loving rather than cruel. There are allegories that seem silly if taken at face value, but also some interesting lessons. Some people have found their true God and religion through that, too. The Bible is a decent book that has gotten twisted around with various organized religions.
Is it divine?
Is it divine?
Does being divine mean the acceptance of a supreme being? Then not for an atheist and since my concept of God is not anthropomorphic maybe not for me. I think it might be divinely inspired with a looser definition of divination, but still the work of man's fallible hand. Is love and forgiveness divine? I think it is something we just have to answer for ourselves. Possibly a person with more faith might add to my take.
Teacher Terry
7-9-18, 9:11pm
The founding fathers were deitists and believed God wound up the world like a clock and let it go.
I read "the founding fathers were dentists" and wondered why they didn't do a better job with Washington's teeth...
Teacher Terry
7-9-18, 10:24pm
Notice how the OP is missing in action. I noticed Jane that I spelled it wrong. Maybe just having some fun with us :~)
Ultralight
7-10-18, 6:36am
Notice how the OP is missing in action. I noticed Jane that I spelled it wrong. Maybe just having some fun with us :~)
Well, he probably did not expect us to have some fun with him right back.
The thing is, I am happy to discuss religion and such with him, and on this forum.
But I also wonder if he is here to talk about simple living at all.
Yeah, I think the OP with his wall o' text was here looking for a flock of lost sheep. Perhaps he's moved on to more promising pastures.
Yes, I thought it might be the start of a more interesting discussion.
I'm still here. I've just been watching the conversation. It is very intelligent. I have been busy these past couple of days with work, not much time for posting.
I've laid out my interpretation in the first two posts, not too much more to add. Mostly, I just like to see the comments I get. This is a good forum, I like it. It is lively and I see folks here have a respect for each other, which is nice...
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