Over-crowded rats behave like humans

[HappyHiker]

I remember some class or textbook reading that told us that if you keep crowding rats in a cage, at some point, they begin exhibiting anti-social, violent behavior.

Got me thinking -- when I was a kid in the 1950's, world population was about 2,556,000,000. World population today is around 7,000,000,000

Quite a population explosion.

Our resources and arable land are finite. Climate change is reducing our natural resources.

There also seems to be sense of futility and hopelessness that our world is on the downslope and things will not improve.

Have you seen any evidence of humans exhibiting anti-social or violent behavior of late (said with tongue firmly n cheek).

How much of this, do you suppose, is caused the press of population??

[ApatheticNoMore]

I don't know how much is caused by population, but 2,556,000,000 was probably much closer to a sustainable population. I've been researching more sustainable eating lately (I'm not going to become a pure vegan, I'm not asking for a sermon on diet, it's just an interest, which I may adopt to somewhat but ..) and sometimes it is argued that we should eat more sustainably so that the world can support 10 billion people. Oh @#$# that is all I have to say to that!!! People need to stop at one kid. 10 billion? I mean how screwed up is that?

People will say not everywhere is overpopulated, that is true relatively so, however the planet as a whole is overpopulated. But even the places that aren't, urban areas is what the whole world is moving into, global urbanization, and urban areas are getting overpopulated.

[mschrisgo2]

Teachers see it in the classroom. There is a huge difference between 24 kids and 32 kids in a room. With 24, they have space, with 32, they are in each others' faces all the time. The behavior problems become exponential with overcrowding

[catherine]

Teachers see it in the classroom. There is a huge difference between 24 kids and 32 kids in a room. With 24, they have space, with 32, they are in each others' faces all the time. The behavior problems become exponential with overcrowding

I went to Catholic school where each classroom, grades 1-8, had 40 kids--5 rows of 8 kids each. But we had nuns, and no behavioral problems.

[Yppej]

In the 1940's Hitler invaded other countries because he said the Germans needed lebensraum, so the 1950's number isn't some ideal.

At my interview I was asked how I am at working with others in close quarters. There is anti -social but not violent behavior in my workplace. One form it takes is nasty comments not naming someone but clearly referring to them within their earshot. This happened yesterday when our twice demoted, miserable receptionist came over to our area to try to stir up trouble because she feels cooped up and unhappy at her desk.

[Lainey]

I went to Catholic school where each classroom, grades 1-8, had 40 kids--5 rows of 8 kids each. But we had nuns, and no behavioral problems.

Same here but even more kids: we had 76 kids in my 5th grade class, and one nun as teacher. However, schools in the 1960s did not accept any children who were disabled or had any special needs either. The nuns ruled with an iron fist and the parents backed them up. But I still look back and wonder how everyone managed.

[JaneV2.0]

I went to Catholic school where each classroom, grades 1-8, had 40 kids--5 rows of 8 kids each. But we had nuns, and no behavioral problems.

We regularly had 30-ish kids per class, no nuns, and no behavior problems.
Funny how time changes things.

[mschrisgo2]

There were 53 kids in my class, Catholic school, 1-8. There was absolutely no talking allowed, and no expectation of working in groups, or with a partner. It's the exact opposite today.

[Tammy]

The kids were unhappy. It may have been quiet in the classroom but it wasn’t a good environment for children.

[JaneV2.0]

The kids were unhappy. It may have been quiet in the classroom but it wasn’t a good environment for children.

Huh? i never got that impression. We knew the rules, we had regular recesses to let off steam, we were engaged, and we learned quite a bit.
I'd be unhappy if I were forced to work in groups, as I was in recent (ish) college classes.

[Teacher Terry]

I went to a public school and 40 kids in a class. There were no behavior problems. I loved school. But if I had gotten into trouble at school it would have been big trouble at home. I raised my kids the same way. You are right that no disabled children were in regular classes. Kids with certain disabilities do take up more of the teachers time.

[Tammy]

People I know who went to catholic school talk about the slapping of hands with rulers, the strict and angry nuns, the forced group-think, etc.

Maybe I’m projecting my own hatred of those types of environments onto those who were in that circumstance.

[catherine]

People I know who went to catholic school talk about the slapping of hands with rulers, the strict and angry nuns, the forced group-think, etc.

Maybe I’m projecting my own hatred of those types of environments onto those who were in that circumstance.

Some nuns were angry, others were kind. I do not regret my Catholic school education. Not at all. It's true that the Catholic school environment doesn't work for everyone, but it was fine for me.

[JaneV2.0]

People I know who went to catholic school talk about the slapping of hands with rulers, the strict and angry nuns, the forced group-think, etc.

Maybe I’m projecting my own hatred of those types of environments onto those who were in that circumstance.

My mother was so influenced by her Catholic education that she refused to wear black shoes--they reminded her of being scolded and staring down at nuns' feet. Her sister led an insurrection when one attempted to smack her with a ruler; all the siblings left and never went back. My grandmother, on the other hand, worshiped the nuns she was raised by.

My public grade school was a placid place by comparison; as far as I know there were no corporal punishments handed out, and very little disturbance in the force, so to speak. We did line up before lunch and say prayers that varied widely--including Hebrew prayers. No one complained.

[Tammy]

I think of catholic school in the same vein as other totalitarian systems.

[Tammy]

I’m reading “the righteous mind” by Jonathan haidt. It addresses how our reasoning is often informed by our emotions and intuition, and reason is our way of making those intuitions sound reasonable and data based.

Discussions on politics sex and religion are particularly prone to this concept.

[catherine]

My mother was so influenced by her Catholic education that she refused to wear black shoes

I was so influenced by my Catholic education that I wanted to be a nun.

[Teacher Terry]

I read a good book about a woman that became a nun in mother Teresa’s order. She left after 20 years. It was eye opening and mother Teresa was definitely fallible. For instance she was given too small shoes and instead of saying something she allowed her feet to be permanently damaged. She expected other nuns to do the same.

[JaneV2.0]

I was so influenced by my Catholic education that I wanted to be a nun.

My closest childhood friend did become a nun for a time, then left the convent, married, and had children. Both paths her life took were equally incomprehensible to me. :~)

[catherine]

I read a good book about a woman that became a nun in mother Teresa’s order. She left after 20 years. It was eye opening and mother Teresa was definitely fallible. For instance she was given too small shoes and instead of saying something she allowed her feet to be permanently damaged. She expected other nuns to do the same.

I understand Catholic Church bashing--they're an easy target, especially these days. But instead of focusing on Mother Teresa's shoes, why wouldn't you give her credit for every act of love and compassion she gave the poor in India? Of course she was fallible. Everyone is.

It seems that with religion one bad apple can brand the barrel. But you don't have to look hard to find faith-based people, Catholic or not, who make a lot of tremendous sacrifice to make the world a better place. Catholic-bashing is just as bad as saying all Muslims are terrorists.

I am not being an apologist for pedophile priests or a rigidly patriarchal church hierarchy, or sourpuss nuns. I am being an apologist for the body of Catholics, or born-agains, or Jews, or Muslims who actually walk the walk and inspire me and have my gratitude.

And I'm not even Catholic (anymore). But I still gain tremendous insight and wisdom from Catholic writers, poets, and activists.

[iris lilies]

I understand Catholic Church bashing--they're an easy target, especially these days. But instead of focusing on Mother Teresa's shoes, why wouldn't you give her credit for every act of love and compassion she gave the poor in India? Of course she was fallible. Everyone is.

It seems that with religion one bad apple can brand the barrel. But you don't have to look hard to find faith-based people, Catholic or not, who make a lot of tremendous sacrifice to make the world a better place. Catholic-bashing is just as bad as saying all Muslims are terrorists.

I am not being an apologist for pedophile priests or a rigidly patriarchal church hierarchy, or sourpuss nuns. I am being an apologist for the body of Catholics, or born-agains, or Jews, or Muslims who actually walk the walk and inspire me and have my gratitude.

And I'm not even Catholic (anymore). But I still gain tremendous insight and wisdom from Catholic writers, poets, and activists.

Oh agreed, if even one such sentiment was uttered about a Muslim, that post would be attacked immediately. Reasonable people know saints are not saintly in all aspects of their lives, and who wants to be a saint, anyway? Not me.

One aspect of the Catholic Church I like is that it has a giant think tank system of priestly scholars and is out front in determining medical procedures that are contrary to Church teachings.

I have some interest in the ethics of human reproduction, the issues that go beyond abortion. Things like In vitro fertilization, egg production, storing of eggs and sperm and ownership and maintenance of same, and multiple biological parents. Our legal system is struggling to address challenges of these reproduction technologies.

So, while I may not agree with the Catholic Church in their conclusions,
I really like the fact that they identify the ethical issues and examine them in depth.

I also really really like the Catholic Church for the 19th century buildings it erected all around me. And now, at our weekend house, the spire of St. George’s Catholic Church rises on the horizon to provide me with a scenic view.

[Teacher Terry]

Catherine, I was not Catholic bashing and neither was the author of the book. I just found it really interesting and it showed a more human side of Mother Teresa. I spent a lot of time in Catholic Church growing up because I often went to guitar masses with my friends and boyfriend. I grew up Lutheran which is similar although I no longer believe. My kids went to a Catholic grade school because our local school was terrible. It was expensive because we weren’t Catholic. I loved all the people including the nuns and they were very good to my kids. They took religion and went to mass with the rest of the kids.

[catherine]

Catherine, I was not Catholic bashing and neither was the author of the book. I just found it really interesting and it showed a more human side of Mother Teresa. I spent a lot of time in Catholic Church growing up because I often went to guitar masses with my friends and boyfriend. I grew up Lutheran which is similar although I no longer believe. My kids went to a Catholic grade school because our local school was terrible. It was expensive because we weren’t Catholic. I loved all the people including the nuns and they were very good to my kids. They took religion and went to mass with the rest of the kids.

Sorry for misunderstanding, TT. Your negative comment came after a string of Catholic/religion-bashing posts, so you were the straw that broke the camel's back! Mother Teresa's own internal battles with her faith have been documented, and personally I find that more interesting than ill-fitting shoes.

[Teacher Terry]

I just found it fascinating that she was willing to deform her feet as a novice instead of saying the shoes were too small. When we go to Europe we visit the Catholic Church’s as they are beautiful. My son turned Catholic for his wife so they could get married in the church in Poland although he is not a believer. They asked my husband to read a prayer in English after it was read in Polish. The ceremony was in Polish so most of it we had no clue what was said. It is the custom in Poland on the wedding day for the father of the bride to have bottles of vodka in his trunk. Then when they see friends in bizarre costumes they stop and give them a bottle. But we didn’t know this. So we come out of the house and a guy is standing there in a weird costume with a gas mask on. It scared me until my son said he is waiting for his vodka:))

[iris lilies]

Crazy, the gas mask guy! Now you just made me want to go to
Krakow.

[Tiam]

I remember some class or textbook reading that told us that if you keep crowding rats in a cage, at some point, they begin exhibiting anti-social, violent behavior.

Got me thinking -- when I was a kid in the 1950's, world population was about 2,556,000,000. World population today is around 7,000,000,000

Quite a population explosion.

Our resources and arable land are finite. Climate change is reducing our natural resources.

There also seems to be sense of futility and hopelessness that our world is on the downslope and things will not improve.

Have you seen any evidence of humans exhibiting anti-social or violent behavior of late (said with tongue firmly n cheek).

How much of this, do you suppose, is caused the press of population??

I do feel there is a sense of hopelessness and also a lack of purpose. This along with the lack of meaningful, productive jobs i feel is adding to the huge numbers of people who choose not to be involved in society anymore, and just drop out and become homeless. Our community has seen a homeless explosion, and I feel that hoplessness and uselessness are at the root of the increase.

[Teacher Terry]

Polish weddings last 2-3 days. This began because the poles got invaded over and over and their lives were bleak. Never much stuff in the stores, standing in line all day hoping to get a loaf of bread. So weddings became a huge celebration. But they are much better than our weddings. They feed you a different course every hour or two. Tons of group dancing and tons of silly fun games. One game was my DH driving a toy car wearing glasses so thick you can barely see racing to a chair with shot of vodka and coming back. The men and women would line up to see which team won. We donned cowboy hats and boots and rode a big bouncy ball in a race. My daughter in law broke a glass and my son swept it up. She fed me cake while my son fed her mom cake. The winner gets to boss around the other for the first year. I made sure my DIL won. The two dads had to pass a cowboy hat back and forth while music plays and the winner ends up with it when stopped. Sylwia’s mom had to get up and sing a song. Then they called me to the center and tell me to sing. I just stand there like a deer in headlights because I cannot carry a tune. DH noticed and came out and sang with me. The father of the groom is supposed to be leading all the games but he is very shy so they used m husband. They taught us how to group dance and a few people spoke English and would translate so we could talk to everyone.

[iris lilies]

Polish weddings last 2-3 days. This began because the poles got invaded over and over and their lives were bleak. Never much stuff in the stores, standing in line all day hoping to get a loaf of bread. So weddings became a huge celebration. But they are much better than our weddings. They feed you a different course every hour or two. Tons of group dancing and tons of silly fun games. One game was my DH driving a toy car wearing glasses so thick you can barely see racing to a chair with shot of vodka and coming back. The men and women would line up to see which team won. We donned cowboy hats and boots and rode a big bouncy ball in a race. My daughter in law broke a glass and my son swept it up. She fed me cake while my son fed her mom cake. The winner gets to boss around the other for the first year. I made sure my DIL won. The two dads had to pass a cowboy hat back and forth while music plays and the winner ends up with it when stopped. Sylwia’s mom had to get up and sing a song. Then they called me to the center and tell me to sing. I just stand there like a deer in headlights because I cannot carry a tune. DH noticed and came out and sang with me. The father of the groom is supposed to be leading all the games but he is very shy so they used m husband. They taught us how to group dance and a few people spoke English and would translate so we could talk to everyone.

this is hilarious! I woild love to attend that kind of wedding.

[Teacher Terry]

People don’t get drunk because they are constantly feeding you. Poles live Americans too. We had a blast!

[JaneV2.0]

Oh agreed, if even one such sentiment was uttered about a Muslim, that post would be attacked immediately. Reasonable people know saints are not saintly in all aspects of their lives, and who wants to be a saint, anyway? Not me.

....

Oh piffle. If anyone in my family had been intimidated by an Imam, I would be first out of the gate to comment. I hardly think anything I wrote was Catholic-bashing (or most of the other comments either). The church has more things going for it than some others, and I respect its latest pope.

[Teacher Terry]

I actually really like the new pope.

[HappyHiker]

I do feel there is a sense of hopelessness and also a lack of purpose. This along with the lack of meaningful, productive jobs i feel is adding to the huge numbers of people who choose not to be involved in society anymore, and just drop out and become homeless. Our community has seen a homeless explosion, and I feel that hoplessness and uselessness are at the root of the increase.

Thanks, Tiam, for bringing the thread back on topic -- and for the thoughtfulness of your reply. Our search for meaning seems to be getting harder and harder these days. Hence the rise in suicides and opiate addiction. Sometimes it's hard to remain optimistic...I find volunteer work helps at times...giving back. That, and avoiding much of the news with its overly bloody, violent focus...