Total Money Makeover by Dave Ramsey

[Ultralight]

My ladyfriend and I just started reading Total Money Makeover together. We also started the workbook.

I am hoping it'll help me to make even more progress financially and to be more frugal (especially in the face of my damn junk food addiction!).

Also, my ideal hope is that if she and I can get on the same page and do this program it could be something that bonds us together (though I am aware the opposite could happen!).

[iris lilies]

My ladyfriend and I just started reading Total Money Makeover together. We also started the workbook.

I am hoping it'll help me to make even more progress financially and to be more frugal (especially in the face of my damn junk food addiction!).

Also, my ideal hope is that if she and I can get on the same page and do this program it could be something that bonds us together (though I am aware the opposite could happen!).
I want to know how she is with Harlan. Does she like him?

[Ultralight]

I want to know how she is with Harlan. Does she like him?

She likes Harlan. But she and I have very different schools of thought about raising dogs. I told her it is my way or the highway on that.

[catherine]

I love TMMM. I also love DR's podcasts. However, you should warned that DR has a very evangelical Christian orientation. If you can get past that, his financial approach is a lot of good common sense put into logical steps, and if you follow them, you should definitely have a much improved financial life.

[iris lilies]

She likes Harlan. But she and I have very different schools of thought about raising dogs. I told her it is my way or the highway on that.
Yay, a dog dad who places dog life over succulentlips and etc. :~)

[Ultralight]

Yay, a dog dad who places dog life over succulentlips and etc. :~)

I do not use corporal punishment on Harlan. No one else will either. Period. And I expect Harlan to be spoken to with compassion or a controlled stern tone during discipline.

[Ultralight]

I love TMMM. I also love DR's podcasts. However, you should warned that DR has a very evangelical Christian orientation. If you can get past that, his financial approach is a lot of good common sense put into logical steps, and if you follow them, you should definitely have a much improved financial life.

Yeah, the Xian stuff is a turn off. But his system seems to be fully applicable in the secular context.

[Tybee]

Yeah, the Xian stuff is a turn off. But his system seems to be fully applicable in the secular context.

Why not go and take the class? We did and it was life changing.

[ToomuchStuff]

First, ROTFL at this. Surprised that this will be the first student loan drone debt post.



I love TMMM. I also love DR's podcasts. However, you should warned that DR has a very evangelical Christian orientation. If you can get past that, his financial approach is a lot of good common sense put into logical steps, and if you follow them, you should definitely have a much improved financial life.

The Christian part definitely turns me off (they only seem to meet at churches). If it weren't for D.R. was a friend of a late friend of mind, I am not sure I could stand to listen to him. I don't listen often, but if my schedule puts me in my vehicle, he is on, in between other things I listen to, when not in a music mood.
I certainly don't say I follow him, as I do use a CC for online stuff. With one exception in a decade due to lost bill and hours, it is paid off in full every month.
But I would LOVE to find out from him, who he uses as a processor as he accepts debit cards for purchases, and I have never found a debit card only transaction company.

[Teacher Terry]

Yes he has good practical advice. We don’t use physical punishment with our dogs either.

[Ultralight]

I am almost finished with the book, though I skipped the section about putting kids through college.

My ladyfriend and I met up to talk about it. She does not have anything near a gazelle-like intensity or enthusiasm brewing yet.

When I am reading Dave's stuff or the success stories I feel pumped up by it!

Next month I will have to spend roughly half my emergency fund on Harlan's dental care. Then in November I will have to spend the other half on car/renter insurance.

So I am essentially starting Dave's system from the bottom.

I will save the $1,000, then hammer at the medical debt, then build the real emergency fund.

My buddy Jeff wants to do the Live Below The Line challenge again, where we live on $1.75 a day of groceries for a week. So this will give me a little jump start.

[Tybee]

That sounds great, UL. I had the same reaction with Dave's book--it really does get you inspired to try the system. The class helped us to both get inspired--my husband found the class helped him get pumped, but he was not pumped by the book the way I was.
The class is great because you get support from the group, and other people are also getting pumped and changing the way they think, so it really works.

But the system is totally doable without the class! It just helped me and appealed to my husband's way of learning. I think the book would have been adequate for me. I think the class is available as cds, or it used to be? He has lots of good examples when he speaks, which reminds me to start listening to the podcasts, which also help me to focus on the message of no debt.

[Ultralight]

Anyone use Dave's envelope method?

[catherine]

Anyone use Dave's envelope method?

I did it for a while. Not doing it now but I will say that it definitely makes you more mindful, and keeps money under control. Even though I track spending religiously and I have access to exactly how much money I've spent on food, clothes, entertainment, etc., there's nothing like the thought of running out of money at the supermarket line to keep your spending in check. I definitely was able to significantly lower discretionary expenses using the envelope system WITHOUT sacrificing my lifestyle.

Here are the pros and cons:

Pros:
See above: you're much more mindful. Nothing like REAL cash to drive home how much you're spending.
Makes your budget pretty simple. You don't have to go through bank and credit card statements to figure out what you spent.
Facilitates communication with your SO. "Hey, I'm taking 80 out of the envelope for food. I'll stop on the way home." "Do we really need to spend $80?" OR "Why is there only $20 left in Entertainment?" "Remember, when brought KFC over to Kim and Joe's for Movie Night we decided to put that under Entertainment, not Food?"

Cons:

You have to be vigilant about asking for or keeping receipts. An alternative is downloading an app where you can input cash purchases as you make them, otherwise it's hard to remember
You have to be organized. If you leave for the day, you have to be sure you have the right amount of money to take with you.
Sometimes you don't have the right mixture of currency for what you want so you wind up raiding the gas envelope for food or something like that. I solved that by going to the bank once a week and getting the cash I needed for all of the envelopes in small-to-larger (up to $20) denominations. It was like playing with Monopoly money.
If you need to bring a larger amount of cash with you it can be a little scary. But I have never lost money or had it stolen, and even if I lost money, I told myself that that would be nothing compared to the money I would have "lost" if I were still freewheeling spending.
There aren't any pretty or durable envelopes. Paper envelopes have to be replaced pretty frequently. You can buy those nylon cases with dividers in them at the dollar store, but I never used one of those. I just used paper--I could write stuff on the paper envelopes like how much I was starting with.

[ToomuchStuff]

I will save the $1,000, then hammer at the medical debt, then build the real emergency fund.


So not exactly following the plan.

[Ultralight]

So not exactly following the plan.

Am I forgetting something?

[ToomuchStuff]

Before you build your 3 to 6 month emergency fund, paying off all debts BUT THE HOUSE (you don't have a house)! That does include those things you don't want to face.

[Chicken lady]

From a practical standpoint, it seems to make sense to have your emergency fund before paying off debts that are not growing. The idea behind paying off the debts first is that it saves and frees up money that would have been going to interest. But am I right in remembering that UL has a forgiveness provision in his loan such that if he pays it off early he simply ends up paying more total? Also, is the medical debt stable or accumulating (interest) - in an emergency, a paid off credit card could be used to get you through if needed, but a paid off medical debt doesn’t help you.

we have debt at interest that we could pay off, but the money for that is invested elsewhere (for retirement) and the numbers don’t make sense to cash it out and pay the debt. So, while a “one size fits all” plan may be simple and workable, sometimes it makes more sense to look at the ideas behind the plan and tailor it for your circumstances.

[catherine]

we have debt at interest that we could pay off, but the money for that is invested elsewhere (for retirement) and the numbers don’t make sense to cash it out and pay the debt. So, while a “one size fits all” plan may be simple and workable, sometimes it makes more sense to look at the ideas behind the plan and tailor it for your circumstances.

Not sure how much you know about Dave Ramsey's plan, but the overarching idea is to get rid of ALL debt because debt=slavery. You are right that UL may have mitigating factors with regard to his student loan forgiveness plan, but DR's plan does not include things like paying off higher interest debt first, or doing what you are doing--keeping low interest debt and putting the money in higher-earning investments, because he believes that a) if you have any debt, you are not free, and b) people who need his program do not do well with the strictly rational money management approach. That's why his snowball plan requires that you list your debts smallest to largest regardless of interest. Reason: small wins are very motivating. It's better to pay off a $300 bill with no interest than concentrate on a $3000 bill at 20% because you will never have the motivational steam to keep going.

[Tybee]

That's a good summation of the rationale, Catherine, and why it works. He is very motivated to get you out of debt. I think of it as debt robbing you of your future, as you have to work that much harder just to catch up to zero. Without debt, that money could be working for you.

[iris lilies]

Over on the Mr.Money Mustache boards the debate rages about paying off a mortgage. I am not even sure there is debate allowed anymore since it has been decreed that paying off a low interest mortgage, when you can invest that money for higher returns, is for chumps.

Me, I always considered a mortgage to be my master, so I didnt want one. Dont care how much being mortgage free costs me. It is an emotional decision abput freedom.

In 30 years of marriage we have not paid a dime in interest, it is cash for everything.

[Tybee]

Here is a link to where Dave talks about the kind of student loan forgiveness program that UL is on and what he would recommend to him:

https://www.daveramsey.com/askdave/college/write-the-check-or-wait-for-debt-forgiveness

Also this one, that does not presuppose an inheritance, as first link does:

https://www.daveramsey.com/askdave/college/go-for-the-forgiveness

So my guess is Dave would say either get a better paying job and get out of student loan debt faster or save the money to pay off the debt earlier.

[catherine]

Over on the Mr.Money Mustache boards the debate rages about paying off a mortgage. I am not even sure there is debate allowed anymore since it has been decreed that paying off a low interest mortgage, when you can invest that money for higher returns, is for chumps.

Me, I always considered a mortgage to be my master, so I didnt want one. Dont care how much being mortgage free costs me. It is an emotional decision abput freedom.


Yup, that's the idea.


In 30 years of marriage we have not paid a dime in interest, it is cash for everything.

You are my hero, IL! I sure wish I could say the same.

[iris lilies]

Yup, that's the idea.



You are my hero, IL! I sure wish I could say the same.

It is a broadly true statement, but there are caveats that I should disclose.I DID have a mortgage when I was single, before getting married. We sold that house a few months after getting married so technically, in our marriage, I paid about 6 months on the mortgage I took out in my own name.

Secondly, we borrowed about $10,000 from my parents at no interest early in our marriage to buy the house we are in now, as a bridge loan while DH’s investments reorganized and we could get at his cash. So yeah, having family money st no interest is a big advantage and allows me to make this statement of never being a slave to interest.

Keep in mind we are also in the Midwest where real estate is cheap, and cash buys are not all that unusual.

But generally it is true, we buy all houses and cars with cash, as well as everything else.

[Tenngal]

UL, keep us up to date on the $1.76 a day for groceries..........and the woman who likes your dog..........spending too much money on food for my low carb diet here...........

[LDAHL]

I think DR is strong on debt management, but weak on investment advice. He often seems to feud with his critics in that area.

[SteveinMN]

Over on the Mr.Money Mustache boards the debate rages about paying off a mortgage. I am not even sure there is debate allowed anymore since it has been decreed that paying off a low interest mortgage, when you can invest that money for higher returns, is for chumps.
We were paying ahead on our mortgage (based on DW's notion that she didn't want a mortgage in retirement) but there was no way we could pay off the mortgage by then without putting $3-4000/month toward it. Just didn't make sense for us. The "Save $xx,xxx in Interest on your mortgage" (by prepaying) is a draw, but if you're making $xx,xxx+y investing, who cares if there's a monthly payment? I'd rather take the $$ and pay off higher-interest bills (like my rental property).

There is the emotional component of being mortgage-free, certainly; not underestimating that. But, for us, reverting back to the actual mortgage payment made more sense. I can deal with credit payments I know I can make if the interest rate is not usurious and it's a matter of flexibility/cash flow to not pay off the lower-cost ones. I guess I'm not in Ramsey's target demographic.


UL, keep us up to date on the $1.76 a day for groceries
I'm interested in this, too, not so much from the perspective of doing it myself but from seeing how UL can manage given his need for an anti-inflammatory diet and his food preferences. (Somewhat) secretly I wonder if it will fuel the junk-food binging. There's no way on Earth I can make a double cheeseburger or a peperoni pizza for less money than McDonald's or a national pizza chain charges. Not debating the quality of the food (add air-quotes as you will) or the effect of such a diet on one's health; also not saying that eating out always is cheaper than eating in. But fast food companies are battling for consumer dollars and they make a tempting case: in, out, part with a few bucks, full belly; done. There are many more moving parts to cooking at home.

[ApatheticNoMore]

So my guess is Dave would say either get a better paying job and get out of student loan debt faster or save the money to pay off the debt earlier.

ok he doesn't actually advise this he just says to save money, not to get a different job. That's good because getting a new job just in chase of pay would be pretty risky advice, there are a few good reasons to seek a new job but unless one was vastly underpaid that's not one. And as if everyone can get a better paying job, and if a lower paying job weren't more than worth it if it had more job security (like working for the government usually does ... like UL)


I'm interested in this, too, not so much from the perspective of doing it myself but from seeing how UL can manage given his need for an anti-inflammatory diet and his food preferences. (Somewhat) secretly I wonder if it will fuel the junk-food binging.

true that, I mean how blah is the food your going to eat on under $2 a day and if you are inclined to junk food anyway ... it's going to be way more tempting than how boring you have to make your diet to stick to that budget. But if it's only a week, I guess near anything is doable for a week, but that does not make it sustainable.

[ToomuchStuff]

Here is a link to where Dave talks about the kind of student loan forgiveness program that UL is on and what he would recommend to him:

https://www.daveramsey.com/askdave/college/write-the-check-or-wait-for-debt-forgiveness

Also this one, that does not presuppose an inheritance, as first link does:

https://www.daveramsey.com/askdave/college/go-for-the-forgiveness

So my guess is Dave would say either get a better paying job and get out of student loan debt faster or save the money to pay off the debt earlier.


I am at work on my personal laptop, after rebuilding a piece of equipment (no time to visit the links). Based on my knowledge of him, he would recommend getting an income increase (second job/better paying job, etc), and/or saving up the money to pay off the student debt, so if something happens (plan for a rainy day, it is going to rain), one could write the check and be done with it. Planning for student loan forgiveness is not a plan, nor is taking out more debt for more classes.

[ApatheticNoMore]

Anyone use Dave's envelope method?

I've done envelopes yes. It's not that I don't use credit cards but for online things, and I don't do most of my shopping online.

[Float On]

I failed at emvelopes. It would probably work fine if I'd already paid down debt but due to debt there was too much borrowing from one envelope to cover another and then I lost some envelopes. I think I'm organized but then something like that happens. And then there is the "cash in my hand is cash I want to spend" problem. I do much better with one check book, one debit card, one credit card.

[Teacher Terry]

I thought DR said to save a thousand first so when you have a emergency you don’t have to charge it.

[Tybee]

He does, Terry, and that was where UL's plan starts if I read it correctly, with saving a thousand first for emergencies.
My problem with that advice is it's not really adequate. The dog dental is 1200.
The renter's insurance should not be an emergency because you know that is coming.
We're trying to save up for the dogs each month because their care is so incredibly expensive, like flea meds and heartworm, taken all year--it really adds up. But it is not an emergency, and we need to plan for it.

[catherine]

I thought DR said to save a thousand first so when you have a emergency you don’t have to charge it.

That's right. That's what UL is planning on doing.

[Teacher Terry]

TMS, said he was not following the plan so I got confused. We have pet medication in our regular budget. We paid for Mandy’s dental out of savings. We use a envelope for eating out $ because we have definitely got carried away before in that area. I agree that car and rental insurance should be built into the budget.

[Chicken lady]

I am not very familiar with the plan, but from what I see, it is bad math but good psychology - because the psychological aspect relies on people not behaving rationally and people generally don’t.

but it is still bad math. You come out further ahead financially faster if you pay off the highest interest debt first.

if you have the cash to pay a loan and it is earning loan interest plus y, the math says keep the loan. You are being paid to send in a monthly loan payment. Easy work. And if you need to, you can pay off the loan and “quit” that “job”.

but if you are not going to behave rationally, whatever gets you ahead is better than nothing!

[iris lilies]

I am not very familiar with the plan, but from what I see, it is bad math but good psychology - because the psychological aspect relies on people not behaving rationally and people generally don’t.

but it is still bad math. You come out further ahead financially faster if you pay off the highest interest debt first.

if you have the cash to pay a loan and it is earning loan interest plus y, the math says keep the loan. You are being paid to send in a monthly loan payment. Easy work. And if you need to, you can pay off the loan and “quit” that “job”.

but if you are not going to behave rationally, whatever gets you ahead is better than nothing!
yes, agreed, thats why the Dave Ramsey method works and works well for a lot of people. But not all the people!

[dmc]

How do you get by on $1.75 a day for food? I’m pretty sure I shot that by eating a bag of peanut m&ms. And I tip more than that for a glass of iced tea after a round of golf. And I’m pretty sure the ice tea cost me a few bucks also.

I think it’s a good idea to track you expenses, but some things just seem nuts.

And i I admit I’m paying interest on my wife’s car loan, but it’s 1.9% and they would not reduce the price more even if we paid cash, so we took the loan. Even my MM funds are paying a bit over 1.9%.

But most people seem to be bad with money, so if this program helps with that, that’s a good thing.

[Ultralight]

Before you build your 3 to 6 month emergency fund, paying off all debts BUT THE HOUSE (you don't have a house)! That does include those things you don't want to face.

Uh... what?

[Ultralight]

In 30 years of marriage we have not paid a dime in interest, it is cash for everything.

You all are bad asses! Wow!

I am about to walk to the grocery store and buy a few groceries in cash -- with coins no less!

[Ultralight]

Here is a link to where Dave talks about the kind of student loan forgiveness program that UL is on and what he would recommend to him:

https://www.daveramsey.com/askdave/college/write-the-check-or-wait-for-debt-forgiveness

Also this one, that does not presuppose an inheritance, as first link does:

https://www.daveramsey.com/askdave/college/go-for-the-forgiveness

So my guess is Dave would say either get a better paying job and get out of student loan debt faster or save the money to pay off the debt earlier.

Neither of these scenarios is similar to mine.

[Ultralight]

I am at work on my personal laptop, after rebuilding a piece of equipment (no time to visit the links). Based on my knowledge of him, he would recommend getting an income increase (second job/better paying job, etc), and/or saving up the money to pay off the student debt, so if something happens (plan for a rainy day, it is going to rain), one could write the check and be done with it. Planning for student loan forgiveness is not a plan, nor is taking out more debt for more classes.

This is my favorite topic to debate! My student loans!

Let us do some math here, amigos.

I owe $165,000. If I wanted to pay that off in ten years, starting from today I would need to pay $16,500 a year. That would mean $1,375 a month. I bring home about $2,400 a month. That would mean I would need to live on $1,025. This is simply not possible.

Or I can pay for 7 years (actually 6.5 but lets keep it simple), starting from today a monthly payment of $298 and have the rest forgiven, so long as I work for the government. That would be $25,032. I have already got three years (3.5 actually, but lets keep it simple) in to the ten year forgiveness program so I have already paid $10,728. Lets add $25,032 and $10,728. The sum is $35,760.

So what do you think I should do, pay $165,000 or $35,760?

[Tybee]

Actually, UL, both are as both callers are contemplating the student loan forgiveness program that you are involved in, and DR is speaking about the program as how it impacts their debt. Should they pay off the student loan debt, should they look for a program such as the one you are involved in at their current job, should they limit their employment to jobs that pay off their loans. That is why both of these scenarios have relevance to your situation, from the standpoint of what DR would say to do in your situation.

Hope that helps you!

[Ultralight]

Actually, UL, both are as both callers are contemplating the student loan forgiveness program that you are involved in, and DR is speaking about the program as how it impacts their debt. Should they pay off the student loan debt, should they look for a program such as the one you are involved in at their current job, should they limit their employment to jobs that pay off their loans. That is why both of these scenarios have relevance to your situation, from the standpoint of what DR would say to do in your situation.

Hope that helps you!

Check out my math above. If DR told me to pay the $165k he would be either ill informed or a moron.

[iris lilies]

Check out my math above. If DR told me to pay the $165k he would be either ill informed or a moron.
Any Dave Ramsey advice is not strictly about the math.

I think you are on the right path for you, though.

[Tybee]

Well, you stated you found the book relevant and were pumped by it. I tried to do some research and help you from the standpoint of getting out of debt, which is his primary focus. He has discussed student loans a lot on the program, and he does consider them a part of someone's debt. That's his program, and many disagree with what he says, and it sounds like you do, too.

Obviously, the way you respond to someone trying to help you is up to you!

[Ultralight]

Any Dave Ramsey advice is not strictly about the math.

I think you are on the right path for you, though.

He wants you to win and feeling like you are winning to build momentum. I doubt he would tell me to pay the $165k when it would take longer and cost many times more than doing the loan forgiveness program.

I am very tempted to call him.

The intricacies of the PSLF program are not known to many people.

[Ultralight]

Well, you stated you found the book relevant and were pumped by it. I tried to do some research and help you from the standpoint of getting out of debt, which is his primary focus. He has discussed student loans a lot on the program, and he does consider them a part of someone's debt. That's his program, and many disagree with what he says, and it sounds like you do, too.

Obviously, the way you respond to someone trying to help you is up to you!

If you read his book he also talks about exceptions to his rules.

What do you mean the way I respond to someone trying to help me is up to me? I know that. haha

[Ultralight]

I just emailed DR!

[ApatheticNoMore]

the links were not relevant, a savings of $8,800 (less than the cost of a car) is not the same as a savings of 100k. Just not comparable. Maybe to save $8,800 does limit career options too much if one took a job just to save that (of course that assumes one has better career options, they might not anyway). And I can't see advice premised on coming into magical inheritance money being applicable to many people at all.

[LDAHL]

This is my favorite topic to debate! My student loans!

Let us do some math here, amigos.

I owe $165,000. If I wanted to pay that off in ten years, starting from today I would need to pay $16,500 a year. That would mean $1,375 a month. I bring home about $2,400 a month. That would mean I would need to live on $1,025. This is simply not possible.

Or I can pay for 7 years (actually 6.5 but lets keep it simple), starting from today a monthly payment of $298 and have the rest forgiven, so long as I work for the government. That would be $25,032. I have already got three years (3.5 actually, but lets keep it simple) in to the ten year forgiveness program so I have already paid $10,728. Lets add $25,032 and $10,728. The sum is $35,760.

So what do you think I should do, pay $165,000 or $35,760?

If you owe $165K, you'd be paying more than $1,375 per month due to interest in the first alternative (less the tax impact, if any). You would probably also need to make reasonable assumptions about the incremental salary difference if you were to take a (presumably) higher-paying non-PSLF job. I would guess that increment would need to be fairly substantial to break even over the remaining life of the loan.

Another alternative would be for President Sanders and a Democratic Improvidentialist Congress to proclaim the Jubilee and shift your obligation to the National Debt.

[ToomuchStuff]

Uh... what?


This is my favorite topic to debate! My student loans!

Let us do some math here, amigos.

I owe $165,000. If I wanted to pay that off in ten years, starting from today I would need to pay $16,500 a year. That would mean $1,375 a month. I bring home about $2,400 a month. That would mean I would need to live on $1,025. This is simply not possible.

Or I can pay for 7 years (actually 6.5 but lets keep it simple), starting from today a monthly payment of $298 and have the rest forgiven, so long as I work for the government. That would be $25,032. I have already got three years (3.5 actually, but lets keep it simple) in to the ten year forgiveness program so I have already paid $10,728. Lets add $25,032 and $10,728. The sum is $35,760.

So what do you think I should do, pay $165,000 or $35,760?

List all your debts smallest to largest, this includes your student loans.
In your case, I am pretty sure (as you are not changing jobs), he would say option 3 which you haven't considered. Work your tail off, getting extra money and putting it aside. Since your intent on doing the forgiveness program, when/if your debt would be forgiven, you would have a nice chunk of change.
If you were terminated from your job, then immediately use that on the debt.

[ApatheticNoMore]

If you were terminated from your job, then immediately use that on the debt.

no you can postpone student debt if you are unemployed, so not immediately (perhaps eventually)

[Ultralight]

Another alternative would be for President Sanders and a Democratic Improvidentialist Congress to proclaim the Jubilee and shift your obligation to the National Debt.

I would feel kind of slimy about this, but I would still do it if they allowed it.

[Ultralight]

List all your debts smallest to largest, this includes your student loans.
In your case, I am pretty sure (as you are not changing jobs), he would say option 3 which you haven't considered. Work your tail off, getting extra money and putting it aside. Since your intent on doing the forgiveness program, when/if your debt would be forgiven, you would have a nice chunk of change.
If you were terminated from your job, then immediately use that on the debt.

Debts:
$645 medica bill
$165,000 student loan

Can you explain more? I don't get what you are saying.

[Ultralight]

no you can postpone student debt if you are unemployed, so not immediately (perhaps eventually)

I have 12 months of any-reason forbearance still. So I could use that if I get unemployed. But if you get unemployed, yes, you can use a hardship forbearance too. During forbearance you don't make payments.

[Ultralight]

So I did the math. If I poured every red cent of my take home pay into my loans it would still take me 6 years to pay off the $165,000.

Anyone still think I should abandon the PSLF plan? haha

[razz]

I am reading that you are comfortable with the 'noose of debt' around your neck, limiting your employment opportunities, your freedom to move and live an alternative life. I couldn't do that so can understand others who are puzzled by your choice. It is your life and you live with the consequences of your choices as we all do. Stop trying to rationalize it to others.

[Ultralight]

I am reading that you are comfortable with the 'noose of debt' around your neck, limiting your employment opportunities, your freedom to move and live an alternative life.

You read correctly!


I couldn't do that so can understand others who are puzzled by your choice.

You couldn't? What would you do?


It is your life and you live with the consequences of your choices as we all do.

I am living with the consequences. Though I am trying to mitigate them in the best possible way for myself. Is that a bad idea?


Stop trying to rationalize it to others.

Are you implying that my plan is irrational? Please tell me the more rational method of dealing with this. I'd love to see the math. I am definitely open to quicker methods of paying this loan off or getting it forgiven faster.

[catherine]

I think UL is wishing he hadn't taken on $165k of student loan debt, but he can't rewind the past. He is trying to manage it as best he can by doing the Total Money Makeover and accepting the fact that the loan forbearance by the government is going to be the most expedient way to relieve the noose of debt, as razz called it. His only alternative would be to find a job that pays twice as much as he's making now, at the very least and then pay off the whole thing.

Since the government has a legal program that will in effect "pay" him over 10k a year extra for 10 years to relieve himself of the debt, that's the choice he's making and it's not a dumb choice. He's already made his dumb choice years ago when taking out the debt to begin with. But again, he's fired up to get rid of his paltry $645 medical debt and he's trying to improve his finances.

I don't know why people are giving him such a hard time.

[Ultralight]

I don't know why people are giving him such a hard time.

I don't mind them giving me a hard time. I am a real scrapper. haha

I do expect them to state and defend their reasons for giving me a hard time.

[catherine]

I don't mind them giving me a hard time. I am a real scrapper. haha


Oh, I know you can stand up for yourself. I'm just reading your situation differently than some.

[Chicken lady]

Razz, I don’t think UL is “comfortable with the noise of debt around his neck” at all. I think he is trying to get rid of it as quickly as he can, and I don’t think he’s trying to rationalize, I think he’s trying to explain.

if you look at the facts and the math, he has no better choice.

yes, there are better choices -
get a job making twice as much money
inherit a couple hundred thousand dollars from a long lost rich uncle
win the lottery
to name three...

but for UL, they are imaginary scenerios, not real choices.

i’m sure If he found somebody who wanted to pay him twice as much her would jump at the opportunity (assuming the job seemed secure - it would suck to move, increase debt payments, lose the job, and have wasted all those years of undesirable employment....) he has looked for other jobs.

if you have the the winning lottery numbers he’d probably be willing to play them.

[LDAHL]

So I did the math. If I poured every red cent of my take home pay into my loans it would still take me 6 years to pay off the $165,000.

Anyone still think I should abandon the PSLF plan? haha

If you do elect to destroy yourself in a Stakhanovite effort to pay it off, I promise to lay a wreath on your grave every April 15.

[LDAHL]

I am reading that you are comfortable with the 'noose of debt' around your neck, limiting your employment opportunities, your freedom to move and live an alternative life. I couldn't do that so can understand others who are puzzled by your choice. It is your life and you live with the consequences of your choices as we all do. Stop trying to rationalize it to others.

I’m not getting that the noose isn’t chafing a bit. I’m getting that he is making the financially rational decision based on the available options. You say you couldn’t do that, but what would you do in his position? If his debt can’t be discharged in bankruptcy, and a highly paid more interesting job opportunity doesn’t present itself his range of alternatives would seem to be fairly limited.

[razz]

Yes, as Cath said, I wouldn't have taken on $165,000 debt. i would not have liked to feel trapped in a job. I would not like to be unable to move as life offers opportunities. That is my choice, mine alone. I am paranoid about debt. What I have is mine as much as it is possible for things to be. I don't insist that others need to understand that choice.

I would not query if someone chooses differently. EG - some at your age are taking on household mortgages at present to have a new house right now -$500,000 and more plus new car payments, basic living expenses and daycare costs. They want it all now! Others are making modest home choices, keeping cars for years and living on a strict budget as DH and I did.
Their choice, their consequences and none of my business.

That said, I don't think anyone is giving you a hard time as much as you keep raising it and explaining it in so many of your posts. Just let it go. Your choice, your consequences, your business.

Rationalize - 1. attempt to explain or justify (behaviour or an attitude) with logical reasons,

[ToomuchStuff]

Uh... what?



Next month I will have to spend roughly half my emergency fund on Harlan's dental care. Then in November I will have to spend the other half on car/renter insurance.


I will save the $1,000, then hammer at the medical debt, then build the real emergency fund.



no you can postpone student debt if you are unemployed, so not immediately (perhaps eventually)

My brain and typing do not agree. Yes he would have postponed until employed again and then thrown the money at the debt.


Debts:
$645 medica bill
$165,000 student loan

Can you explain more? I don't get what you are saying.
So your learning to budget, so known expenses are not emergencies. That is good.
However you said in that first post, that you were going to build that real emergency fund, which is step 3.
http://www.daveramsey.com/baby-steps

So, in your case, until step two is done, your going to be building a HUGE, $165K in the bank fund, and when you do actually get your loan(s), forgiven, then you would use that money to build your emergency fund and start investing for retirement. Not before.
If your loans are NOT one giant loan, but several, then you still need to be forthcoming and list them as separate. Then following the program, which you think is crazy, you would be somewhere between your estimates of what you would pay, and what you stated you thought was crazy.

[LDAHL]

I would be careful about blithely saying “Well, I would never fallen into that trap in the first place”. It’s of little use to the person in the trap, and it probably attracts the wrong kind of karma.

I do approve of some of the current proposals to make higher education publish data about the debts, employment and income of their graduates. It might give pause to students considering some of the less practical fields of study. I get the education-for-it’s-own-sake thing, but I can’t help but think the professoriate isn’t perhaps completely disinterested in exploiting the less realistic dreams of their customer base.

[catherine]

I would be careful about blithely saying “Well, I would never fallen into that trap in the first place”. It’s of little use to the person in the trap, and it probably attracts the wrong kind of karma.


Yes, it takes longer for some of us to learn life's lessons. It's what you do with the teachings that counts.

[LDAHL]

Yes, it takes longer for some of us to learn life's lessons. It's what you do with the teachings that counts.

Who of us wouldn’t like to go back in time and slap some sense into our younger selves?

[razz]

Who of us wouldn’t like to go back in time and slap some sense into our younger selves?

+1

[Teacher Terry]

UL, you are on the only path that makes sense. We all make perfect choices in hindsight as my mom used to say:)). The only sensible thing now is to build a emergency fund and put your irregular bills into your monthly budget. You also need to save for retirement. Some fields just don’t pay very well. Despite all my education and experience I never made more than 62k/year and the state took 4K off the top and put it towards my pension. Most people can’t just double their salary.

[Ultralight]

I would not query if someone chooses differently. EG - some at your age are taking on household mortgages at present to have a new house right now -$500,000 and more plus new car payments, basic living expenses and daycare costs. They want it all now! Others are making modest home choices, keeping cars for years and living on a strict budget as DH and I did.
Their choice, their consequences and none of my business.

I live in a small, one bedroom apartment. I have a paid off 2012 Nissan Versa. My lifestyle is very austere (except for restaurants and an occasional trip abroad). I ain't living high on the hog here.


That said, I don't think anyone is giving you a hard time as much as you keep raising it and explaining it in so many of your posts. Just let it go. Your choice, your consequences, your business.

People make comments and ask questions regarding my loans. So I address these comments and questions. That is essentially the whole purpose of forums like this. Discussion, debate, interchange of ideas and such.


Rationalize - 1. attempt to explain or justify (behaviour or an attitude) with logical reasons,

Would you rather I irrationalize? haha

[Ultralight]

So, in your case, until step two is done, your going to be building a HUGE, $165K in the bank fund, and when you do actually get your loan(s), forgiven, then you would use that money to build your emergency fund and start investing for retirement. Not before.
If your loans are NOT one giant loan, but several, then you still need to be forthcoming and list them as separate. Then following the program, which you think is crazy, you would be somewhere between your estimates of what you would pay, and what you stated you thought was crazy.

My student loan is one big loan.

[Ultralight]

So your learning to budget, so known expenses are not emergencies. That is good.
However you said in that first post, that you were going to build that real emergency fund, which is step 3.
http://www.daveramsey.com/baby-steps

Here is a quote from myself earlier in this discussion:

"So I am essentially starting Dave's system from the bottom.

I will save the $1,000, then hammer at the medical debt, then build the real emergency fund. "

[ToomuchStuff]

Here is a quote from myself earlier in this discussion:

"So I am essentially starting Dave's system from the bottom.

I will save the $1,000, then hammer at the medical debt, then build the real emergency fund. "

Exactly, skipping step 2 and going to step three before all debt is done. It is a modified plan, not DR plan.

[Teacher Terry]

It’s the only sensible plan and makes zero sense to do it another way.

[Ultralight]

Exactly, skipping step 2 and going to step three before all debt is done. It is a modified plan, not DR plan.

Did you read the book? He makes room for certain exceptions. While he did not specifically mention my situation, it actually conforms to one of his other exceptions fairly closely.

We'll perhaps be finding out his thoughts on it as I emailed him.

Do you feel this way about other things in life? This level of black or white thinking?

Like, my mom is a Catholic. But she supports a woman's right to choose abortion. Is she not a Catholic or is she a modified Catholic?

I am a huge lefty liberal, but I support free speech. Does this mean I am not a real lefty liberal?

I love seafood, but not octopus. Does this mean I don't love seafood?

[Ultralight]

It’s the only sensible plan and makes zero sense to do it another way.

True dat! :)

Even if Dave was like: "Move into your car and pay off the full $165k!" I'd be like: "No thanks, Dave."

[ToomuchStuff]

Did you read the book? He makes room for certain exceptions. While he did not specifically mention my situation, it actually conforms to one of his other exceptions fairly closely.

We'll perhaps be finding out his thoughts on it as I emailed him.

Do you feel this way about other things in life? This level of black or white thinking?

Like, my mom is a Catholic. But she supports a woman's right to choose abortion. Is she not a Catholic or is she a modified Catholic?

I am a huge lefty liberal, but I support free speech. Does this mean I am not a real lefty liberal?

I love seafood, but not octopus. Does this mean I don't love seafood?

I have read the book. When I did, I had been monitoring my spending for several years, including keeping track of all purchases. I had two debts and knew it didn't apply (last mortgage payment and a $1200 CC bill for a repair that I paid off the next month after celebrating no more mortgage). I was given the book to pass on after discussing with a gal I know who was offered a membership, and then the mutual friend of DR and mine.
I see the world as shades of gray, however we (my siblings and myself), were raised with very black and white senses. What might be right for someone else, and be something acceptable in society for us, would still be very wrong.
There are a lot of lessons I learned in life that seem opposite of normal.

EDIT: I doubt you actually hear back from him, but would be interested if you did. (he gets a lot of email)

[Tammy]

It astounds me that anyone follows these plans to the letter. Like they are the Bible. there are many plans (Ramsey, your money or your life, mr money mustache) all of which disagree with each other in the finer points.

[eleighj]

Ultralight, you are not in a bad position. From reading this thread, my perception is that you need to build up not only an emergency fund, but also funds to cover Harlan’s vet bills, car repair and maintenance etc. If you choose to continue your work with the Federal Government and receive the $10,000 per year debt forgiveness that is okay. Debt reduction is a lot of steps, sometimes it steps backwards and other times it is a leap(s) forward. You just need to focus on what you want and do it.

FYI my wife and I have been totally debt free forever 20 years long before I heard of Dave Ramsey. I did proctor two classes of classes for a church that we used to attend in order to help out. If you want to follow his baby steps to the “T” that is fine, if you want to modify that is fine too. All I tell people, if they ask, is that with each dollar of debt you get rid of, your options and opportunities in life grow exponentially.

Good luck.

[Gardnr]

UL, what is critical is to make a plan you can live with and DO IT strictly. 1 wayward move leads to another and you're off and running again!

[Williamsmith]

U.L. your life is shorter than you think. Don’t get caught up in anyone else’s idea of what is right and wrong for you. Find yourself a quiet corner and listen to what you think is right and follow your heart on it. What others think, is quite irrelevant.

[Ultralight]

I appreciate the kind words.

I am keeping an exception: Travelin'. So I have a separate "account" to save up for a trip or two a year.

[Tammy]

We’re in Carson City for a few days visiting our son. A simple vacation, just seeing things in the area and catching up with our son and resting. But it’s so important. It’s been a very busy 3 months at work since we spent a week with our daughter in Toronto. It’s high time for a break.

Vacations are very important. Otherwise we easily become robots of productivity and then our life is too soon gone.

[iris lilies]

UL, check out this thread on the MMM site where a guy is talking about dumping his girlfriend because she has $200,000 in student loans and that came as a surprise to him.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/gf-has-$211-000-in-student-loans/

[ApatheticNoMore]

meh my bf has student loans, they are his though. Since we've known each other at one point he was unemployed, heaven knows I've been unemployed. We've both switched jobs. He's worked 10 hour days and 6 days a week at one job, then constantly is on the edge of getting in trouble at the other due to impossible demands. I've worked in a bullying workplace and paid for it. If it was a marriage it would be "for richer and for poorer - with way way more of the poorer part .... maybe mostly that ...".

Would those people upset she hid the loans be upset if she instead had tons in the bank and hid it, or would it just be protection from golddiggers in that case ... (yea they could come in either sex). I kinda think that is just protection from golddiggers. She earns a decent salary of course, and in a field that is probably really steady long term (non-profit work), but not worth 200k debt.

[Ultralight]

UL, check out this thread on the MMM site where a guy is talking about dumping his girlfriend because she has $200,000 in student loans and that came as a surprise to him.

https://forum.mrmoneymustache.com/ask-a-mustachian/gf-has-$211-000-in-student-loans/

Thanks for the link. I would say: Kick her to the curb!

She lied and she is a massive financial liability.

Her case is much different than mine. I am completely open about my finances -- not just to prospective romantic partners but to virtually anyone. I make $49k. I own $165k in student loans. Etc.

I also do not drive a Nissan Rouge (whatever that is...). I did not even know Nissan made luxury cars. My Nissan Versa was about $16k and it is paid for.

I am roughly 3.5 years into the student loan forgiveness program. She is 6 months in with a portion of her loans.

I would also say that this idea of "Get a higher paying job! And then pay it off fast!" makes me laugh.

Could I land a job that pays a little more than I make now? Maybe. Could I land a job that pays a lot more? This is highly unlikely, if not impossible. I do not have any skills that would make me desirable to high paying employers. And I am dubious that I even have the intellectual capacity or inclination to learn them. I am naturally a liberal arts guy, not a STEM wizard.

[Ultralight]

meh my bf has student loans, they are his though. Since we've known each other at one point he was unemployed, heaven knows I've been unemployed. We've both switched jobs. He's worked 10 hour days and 6 days a week at one job, then constantly is on the edge of getting in trouble at the other due to impossible demands. I've worked in a bullying workplace and paid for it. If it was a marriage it would be "for richer and for poorer - with way way more of the poorer part .... maybe mostly that ...".

Would those people upset she hid the loans be upset if she instead had tons in the bank and hid it, or would it just be protection from golddiggers in that case ... (yea they could come in either sex). I kinda think that is just protection from golddiggers. She earns a decent salary of course, and in a field that is probably really steady long term (non-profit work), but not worth 200k debt.

I really think that you and your bf should consider moving. You all are in situations that are just horrible. What makes it worth staying there and working around the clock at these painful jobs and then conversely dealing with long bouts of nerve racking unemployment?

Also: If she lied about having tons of cash in the bank that would not put her partner at risk. That is the problem. She exposed him to risk.

[Ultralight]

Remember when some folks on here were saying I was not following the Dave Ramsey method closely enough because I was using the Public Service Loan Forgiveness program to settle my $165k student loan debt?

Well, this is straight out of Dave's mouth:

"Overall, the Debt Snowball is for relatively small and medium-size debts."

He also outlined some exceptions to his debt snowball, and these exceptions are large debts, like second mortgages, small-business debts (which are personally guaranteed), and rental property mortgages.

His rule is this: "...if the amount is less than 50% of your gross annual income, put it in the debt snowball."

Boom! Vindication. ;)

[mschrisgo2]

Ultralight, just wondering .... was it the DR discussions or disagreement/attitudes over how to discipline Harlan (my way or the highway) that did in the relationship?

[pinkytoe]

UL, I don't know about the university you work at, but your pay seems low for your education and experience. Even admin assistants at the state university I worked at for years were getting anywhere from 38K-80K+. Any sort of degree really bumped up their pay. Wondering too if yours has good health insurance, pension etc.

[Ultralight]

Ultralight, just wondering .... was it the DR discussions or disagreement/attitudes over how to discipline Harlan (my way or the highway) that did in the relationship?

The treatment of canine companions did play role in the break-up. It was not the major issue though.

I am very particular about how my dog is treated. I love dogs.

[Ultralight]

UL, I don't know about the university you work at, but your pay seems low for your education and experience. Even admin assistants at the state university I worked at for years were getting anywhere from 38K-80K+. Any sort of degree really bumped up their pay. Wondering too if yours has good health insurance, pension etc.

I get paid $49k and have been there 4 years. I started at $45k.

Which state are you in?

I know I am underpaid, but how could my boss's boss and my boss's boss's boss make six figures if they were paying people like me what we really deserve? haha

[catherine]

My son has his Master's Degree and is student adviser at a community college and sometimes teaches a class, and he makes under $40k.

[Ultralight]

My son has his Master's Degree and is student adviser at a community college and sometimes teaches a class, and he makes under $40k.

That is not ideal.

[catherine]

That is not ideal.

I'll say. My son the restaurant server makes more.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I'd take any of those salaries. My last job was just shitty database development type work. I'm pretty useless really. But I would gladly do something more useful and retrain (that was affordable and legit, there's a lot of nonsense out there) right now if it could get me almost anything at this point though (well I'd have to be able to stand whatever it was, not like it, just stand it). But so many jobs, so few that pay enough to live off of (not that those that don't pay enough to live off of can't still be hard to land). 47k and I could pay my bills - ok probably on less and in california, yea my bills are not all that high really. That's quite literally all I want from life at this point.

[Ultralight]

I'd take any of those salaries. My last job was just shitty database development type work. I'm pretty useless really. But I would gladly do something more useful and retrain (that was affordable and legit, there's a lot of nonsense out there) right now if it could get me almost anything at this point though (well I'd have to be able to stand whatever it was, not like it, just stand it). But so many jobs, so few that pay enough to live off of (not that those that don't pay enough to live off of can't still be hard to land). 47k and I could pay my bills - ok probably on less and in california, yea my bills are not all that high really. That's quite literally all I want from life at this point.

Something you also want from life is to stay in the city you are in. If you were willing to move to other cities and states you'd have many, many more opportunities. I have moved across the country for jobs, which is a big reason I currently have a job.

When I finished graduate school I moved from Alabama to Arizona for a job. It was somewhat outside my field of study and paid $34k. But I was literally one of a small handful of people in my very large MLIS program to get a job at all. And I was actually hired two months before graduation.

Here are the reasons that my former classmates in the Alabama MLIS program could not get jobs:
1. They wanted to stay in Alabama (or the surrounding states) to "be close to home."
2. They wanted to work in the library of their choice (academic, public, children's, etc.)

I remember people having utter freak outs as they graduated the semester before me and during the semester I graduated. But when I graduated I was fine. I knew I would moving to Phoenix; I was going to be able to pay my bills and have excellent health insurance.

I even told some classmates this: "You have the skills to do the work I will be doing. You could get the same type of job. I had several offers."

They were like: "No! Must stay here" or "No! Must work in certain kind of library."

I was like: "Okay, have fun temping or brewing coffee."

They temped. And they brewed coffee. But they did not have fun.

[ApatheticNoMore]

my boyfriend would not go with me if I moved either. There would be no "we" to it really. Well maybe help packing ... He has limited job prospects and would anywhere, and family here too, but really also very limited job prospects for various reasons as well.

[Ultralight]

my boyfriend would not go with me if I moved either. There would be no "we" to moving. Well maybe help packing ... He has limited job prospects and would anywhere, so can't say I blame him.


There you go, now you know what one of your main problems in find a job is. You won't move for a new job.

If he has limited options there then he can have limited options anywhere. You probably have significantly better options somewhere else.

[Gardnr]

There you go, now you know what one of your main problems in find a job is. You won't move for a new job.

If he has limited options there then he can have limited options anywhere. You probably have significantly better options somewhere else.

UL, when committed to a partner, not moving because they cannot find employment is NOT a problem. It's commitment. Relationships are give and take. It's never about only 1 of the partners but rather a balance of 2.

[Chicken lady]

Actually, the problem seems to be that the boyfriend is more committed to the location than to ANM’s financial security. Because if ANM being able to find a decently paying job was more important, he would be willing to move.

ANM is more committed to the relationship than to finding a better job. The boyfriend is apparently more committed to the location than to the relationship.

[Ultralight]

Actually, the problem seems to be that the boyfriend is more committed to the location than to ANM’s financial security. Because if ANM being able to find a decently paying job was more important, he would be willing to move.

ANM is more committed to the relationship than to finding a better job. The boyfriend is apparently more committed to the location than to the relationship.

Once again, CL tells it like it is!

[JaneV2.0]

If you have aging parents, location is an important consideration--unless you can convince them to move. I don't think it's unreasonable at all to want to stay near family and friends.

How about hospital/medical jobs? It seems they are always available. I think there's such a thing as medical equipment technician that sounds interesting; not sure what education is required.

[Chicken lady]

I wasn’t judging anybody’s values, just stating what their actions implied their values to be.

[pinkytoe]

I worked at The Univ of Texas. Lots of jobs available but cost of housing might negate the higher salary.

[SteveinMN]

UL, when committed to a partner, not moving because they cannot find employment is NOT a problem. It's commitment. Relationships are give and take. It's never about only 1 of the partners but rather a balance of 2.
Yes, but that does not always mean 50/50. Sometimes it means one partner takes 100% and then, at the next opportunity, the other partner takes the 100%.

We have several friends who have alternated career opportunities, whether that was one partner working and not taking on a promotion elsewhere while the other got an advanced career-appropriate degree, or moving cross-country to accommodate a career-track promotion, or staying in a HSS (but stable) J so one partner can raise the kids at home until they start school. They are all joint decisions but they do come at a significant cost to one of the partners.

In ANM's case, based on what she has posted here over time, it does appear she would have more opportunities elsewhere while her BF would have the same challenges elsewhere. It may be that the level of commitment each has to the relationship precludes one moving a great distance for the other (no judgment here; just saying that there are things I would do in a marriage/LTR which I would not consider as readily for "just" a GF). Or that there are unstated reasons for wanting to stay where they are. Of course, only they know all the factors and their relative weight in the decisions they make.

This discussion is starting to sound like the one in the "Difficult to love" thread in which people are discussing compromise. It may be that the idea is not that both individuals are entirely happy compromising but that, collectively, they are happy with the goal being achieved.

[Gardnr]

Actually, the problem seems to be that the boyfriend is more committed to the location than to ANM’s financial security. Because if ANM being able to find a decently paying job was more important, he would be willing to move.

ANM is more committed to the relationship than to finding a better job. The boyfriend is apparently more committed to the location than to the relationship.

Interesting perceptual differences. I see him as committed to being employed and his concerns about being unemployed in a new location is being respected by his partner.

I have given up things for my husband as he has given up things for me. You can never have it BOTH ways. That's the beauty of a committed relationships and compromise that is mutually satisfying and respectful.

[Chicken lady]

I interpreted ANM as saying that his employment options were equal reguardless of location. If that was incorrect, then clearly my conclusion is also.

[rosarugosa]

I think Gardnr has it right. In the current location, he has an actual job. If one partner is unemployed, does it make sense for the other partner to become unemployed so the first partner could have better prospects? What if both end up unemployed?

[catherine]

I think Gardnr has it right. In the current location, he has an actual job. If one partner is unemployed, does it make sense for the other partner to become unemployed so the first partner could have better prospects? What if both end up unemployed?

Yeah, in that case, ANM should just broadcast her resume over the geographic areas she's interested and if she gets the job (not an interview), then she and BF have a serious decision to make. That's only if BF is agreeable to potentially relocating.

[Teacher Terry]

Well he is not willing to relocate. He may like his job, have elderly parents etc and maybe his company is stable which can’t be said about all companies. If AMN didn’t have her boyfriend then she may be open to moving. I have had to move for jobs when I was my ex. He could easily find work but I was in a small specialized field. When my current husband got laid off at 52 he couldn’t find a engineering job locally. Lots of jobs in Dallas and other big cities. In the end we didn’t want to move again so he took a big reduction in his pension to collect it 7 years early. It was certainly not the best choice financially but emotionally it was.

[iris lilies]

Something you also want from life is to stay in the city you are in. If you were willing to move to other cities and states you'd have many, many more opportunities. I have moved across the country for jobs, which is a big reason I currently have a job.

When I finished graduate school I moved from Alabama to Arizona for a job. It was somewhat outside my field of study and paid $34k. But I was literally one of a small handful of people in my very large MLIS program to get a job at all. And I was actually hired two months before graduation.

Here are the reasons that my former classmates in the Alabama MLIS program could not get jobs:
1. They wanted to stay in Alabama (or the surrounding states) to "be close to home."
2. They wanted to work in the library of their choice (academic, public, children's, etc.)

I remember people having utter freak outs as they graduated the semester before me and during the semester I graduated. But when I graduated I was fine. I knew I would moving to Phoenix; I was going to be able to pay my bills and have excellent health insurance.

I even told some classmates this: "You have the skills to do the work I will be doing. You could get the same type of job. I had several offers."

They were like: "No! Must stay here" or "No! Must work in certain kind of library."

I was like: "Okay, have fun temping or brewing coffee."

They temped. And they brewed coffee. But they did not have fun.

well boy, back in MY day we walked to school miles in the snow. Sometimes we didnt have boots.

oh wait, that was my father’s experience, not mine.

But yeah, I moved across states for each career opportunity. i also had MLIS degree. We graduated into the worst recessoon in a while with 10% unemployment. Fortunately being young, I wasnt worried, and just figured it to be a big adventure to move across country for a job that paid $11,000 annually. And actually I WAS rich because I had no debt, my car was paid for, my parents gave me $1,000 start up money, which went directly into the bank after paying a deposit on an apartment.

[Teacher Terry]

The town I went to graduate school was small and in a beautiful area. Most moved there for college and didn’t want to move after graduation. So people with master’s degrees were driving cabs, etc. It made no sense to me.

[Gardnr]

Yes, but that does not always mean 50/50. Sometimes it means one partner takes 100% and then, at the next opportunity, the other partner takes the 100%. .

Very true day in and day out. Hence my comment "give and take". We've done this for 38years so far and are happier than we've ever been.

[JaneV2.0]

The town I went to graduate school was small and in a beautiful area. Most moved there for college and didn’t want to move after graduation. So people with master’s degrees were driving cabs, etc. It made no sense to me.

Living in a beautiful area is important to me, so I sympathize. I'd be the world's worst cab driver, though.

[Teacher Terry]

Working in my chosen field was more important to me. That’s how I ended up in Kansas. However, where we live now is gorgeous.

[Ultralight]

I got my budget created and my envelope system up and running. It was counter intuitive to me, but I think I figured out Dave's system. There might be a few kinks in there, but I think I should be able to smooth them out over the next month or two.

Using cash wherever possible feels two ways:
1. I feel hesitant to hand over those bills!
2. I feel liberated because banks and corporations are not tracking my spending to the same degree; it is old school!

[eleighj]

I got my budget created and my envelope system up and running. It was counter intuitive to me, but I think I figured out Dave's system. There might be a few kinks in there, but I think I should be able to smooth them out over the next month or two.

Using cash wherever possible feels two ways:
1. I feel hesitant to hand over those bills!
2. I feel liberated because banks and corporations are not tracking my spending to the same degree; it is old school!

👍👍👍

[Ultralight]

I read a bit of Dave's books each night to keep my mind on my money and my money on my mind.

[Ultralight]

Dave Ramsey said:

"Debt is normal. Be weird."

I kinda like this!

[simpleisbest]

That’s so cool! What have been the biggest takeaways from the bookfor you guys? Anything in particular youfound especially eye-opening?

[Float On]

I read a bit of Dave's books each night to keep my mind on my money and my money on my mind.

I like to watch a few of his call in shows via youtube.
Learning from other's mistakes.

[Lainey]

That’s so cool! What have been the biggest takeaways from the bookfor you guys? Anything in particular you found especially eye-opening?

To me it's interesting to find out what their "wake-up call" was. Did their bad credit score prevent them from buying a house or car? Did they want one spouse to be able to stay home with the kids? Did they just get tired of keeping up with the Joneses? It's that turning point that I find so compelling.

[catherine]

That’s so cool! What have been the biggest takeaways from the bookfor you guys? Anything in particular youfound especially eye-opening?

It's been ages since I read the book, but I always listen to the podcast in the car. I like Dave because:


He's no-nonsense
His baby steps are simple and unambiguous
I like his philosophy on debt & no credit cards
He's hilarious to listen to
OTOH, I love how he scolds some of the listeners. Sometimes I feel I need a scolding (although I get some of that here from time to time ;)
I truly believe that if everyone followed his plan to the letter, it's a guaranteed outcome for a good financial life
I like that he separates out the emotional motivations from the rational and builds his steps to address the emotional

[iris lilies]

Catherine, you have made great progress and any scolding at this point is for general or minor stuff. Once you dumped those two in-law houses, you stepped into the world of rational.

[Teacher Terry]

Totally agree with IL.

[catherine]

Totally agree with IL.

Gee, thanks, IL and TT!

I'm getting even more rational this winter when I make plans to dump the next house!

[Teacher Terry]

Are you guys going to move into town during the winter once that house is gone? We all make mistakes.

[catherine]

We all make mistakes.

What do you mean, TT?

I think the plan is to divest our house in NJ and during that time figure out what to do--my preference is to get a short-term winter rental somewhere in NJ for 4 months.

I don't have plans to buy a bigger year-round house on the Island, or in Burlington, at this point. I really love this little house, and I can't imagine finding a better one. I guess it's not perfect for everyone--given the assumption by many that I'll want to "buy up" if we decide to stay on a long-term basis, but it reflects my vibe and my values and my desire to reduce my wants and needs*, and it's cute and it's on a beautiful lake and I'm inspired by my neighbors

If we decide to stay in VT year-round, I'll first see if I can stand the winter in the house we already have and if not, I'll see what I want to do.

But I expect this will be a 3-4 year process. I don't mind taking my time on this.


*The other thing I want to get rid of is my full-time job--it's starting to impinge on the lifestyle I want to create up here. Because of my lifelong stupid financial decisions, if I cut back on work hours, I'm going to have to cut back on other things. A bigger house is simply not in my budget.

[Williamsmith]

I’m curious. What have your neighbors said about the feasibility of over wintering? Have you read up on symptoms of cabin fever or SAD? I’m thinking more about your husband than you. It seems like your job will get you the socialization you’ll need to cope with the winter blues. Strikes me that this environment is vastly different than NJ.

[catherine]

I’m curious. What have your neighbors said about the feasibility of over wintering? Have you read up on symptoms of cabin fever or SAD? I’m thinking more about your husband than you. It seems like your job will get you the socialization you’ll need to cope with the winter blues. Strikes me that this environment is vastly different than NJ.

Yeah, I have the same concerns for both DH and I. The population here goes from 2000 in the summer to 500 in the winter, and those 500 are the REAL vermonter die-hards who have been on the Island for generations and consider building a dog-park "gentrifying." Kind of hard to break into that social circle. But at the same time, when we went to our local grocery store we were telling the people there about our plans to leave mid-October and they were shocked and sad we were leaving--they assumed we had bought a year-round place and were planning on staying. DH can and does make friends easily anywhere he goes, and he really feels these Islanders are his tribe, and they have embraced him (me, too, kind of, but I'm the shy one).

As for me, maybe I'd spend more time driving to Burlington and taking advantage of my kids being there and all the events a college town typically has. I might get more intellectual fulfillment from my job, but I don't get that much socialization from it anymore.

But, you are very right. I would never go into a winter here with rose-colored glasses. In terms of what my neighbors have said, they (and "they" are from Northern Vermont and Quebec) have told us we'd freeze our asses off. We face north and that cold wind sweeps across the ice and apparently, it's pretty pretty cold.

[Tybee]

Yeah, I have the same concerns for both DH and I. The population here goes from 2000 in the summer to 500 in the winter, and those 500 are the REAL vermonter die-hards who have been on the Island for generations and consider building a dog-park "gentrifying." Kind of hard to break into that social circle. But at the same time, when we went to our local grocery store we were telling the people there about our plans to leave mid-October and they were shocked and sad we were leaving--they assumed we had bought a year-round place and were planning on staying. DH can and does make friends easily anywhere he goes, and he really feels these Islanders are his tribe, and they have embraced him (me, too, kind of, but I'm the shy one).

As for me, maybe I'd spend more time driving to Burlington and taking advantage of my kids being there and all the events a college town typically has. I might get more intellectual fulfillment from my job, but I don't get that much socialization from it anymore.

But, you are very right. I would never go into a winter here with rose-colored glasses. In terms of what my neighbors have said, they (and "they" are from Northern Vermont and Quebec) have told us we'd freeze our asses off. We face north and that cold wind sweeps across the ice and apparently, it's pretty pretty cold.

We moved to Northern Michigan and everyone said the same thing about the winter. It took a couple of years to acclimate, but now it's just another season, and people adapt. Life slows down and you time trips to the store, etc. I checked and we get 40 more inches of snow a year than Burlington, and it's not horrible here with the snow, and I am not a snow person. Burlington is fabulous in the winter, so it is not like you are in someplace rural. You have family up there and you will have a private retreat if you stay there and sell New Jersey--I love it here in the winter when the tourists are not here, we all do. So if you become a year rounder, you will probably be embraced by the locals--we have found that the case, that they don't bother to be friends with summer people.

I think it sounds wonderful, to be there year round.

[Teacher Terry]

Catherine, sorry but I was referring to previous financial mistakes. I think we all make them at some time. I don’t think your downsizing is a mistake at all. Just the opposite. The only thing is maybe your 4 month apartment you could find one that is furnished so you only have to move your clothes. Or you could spend the 4 months in Burlington. Or you could insulate your home better. Lots of options. When we downsized from our big house and yard a few of our friends thought we were making a big mistake. One couple 10 years older than us upsized to 3k sq ft when they inherited some money. We love our smaller life. They will never be able to quit working. 6 months ago I retired from testing and sold all my tests. I still teach. Then a friend got to many cases and asked me to test again so I am and it’s fun again. Plus we have had some big expenses all at once and I won’t have to take money out of savings. When I lived in Wisconsin and upstate New York never thought about the snow and cold. Now that we only get occasional snow and cold I can’t imagine the opposite. It’s just what you get used to.

[ToomuchStuff]

I've worked so much this year, it feels longer, so I may be mixing things up.
Catherine, weren't you the one selling the coowned house? Did it sell and did you get the bil moved elsewhere?

[catherine]

Catherine, sorry but I was referring to previous financial mistakes.

Oh, I get it. Thanks.. yes, in terms of money, as Ol' Blue Eyes (or, really, Paul Anka) said: "regrets, I have a few, but then again, too few to mention."
Short-term beach house rentals typically come furnished, so that's another appealing reason for me to go that route.

Tybee, thanks so much for your encouragement! I'll definitely keep what you said in mind (I may even print it out).Funny, the first time we saw this house, the owners were actually here and I had the chance to ask them questions. When I asked the wife what she liked the best about living here she thought and then said, "When everyone goes home for the winter and we have the place to ourselves."

TooMuchStuff: Yes, that was me. We did sell the house, and we used our portion to pay off that awful debt, which was the result of my STUPID mistake to cosign the huge mortgage on my mother-in-law's house in NY. So, in one hand and out the other, as it were (except we did use the few bucks left-over as the down payment on the VT house. I had to get SOMETHING for myself out of all that pain!)

As for BIL, he is living in our NJ house at the moment. It really was a win-win for us because he provided a warm body in the NJ. house while we're up here. He maintained the lawn and even got a couple of things fixed that needed fixing. And he covered the cost of the utilities and cable. Of course, once we sell, he'll have to make a decision on his own for once. I truly don't think he's at all interested in following us up here. He has issues with my husband, and he doesn't like the winters. So I'm hoping he finds something that's suitable for him.

[Teacher Terry]

It will be interesting when you sell the big house and BIL has to make a adult decision for once.

[ToomuchStuff]

As for BIL, he is living in our NJ house at the moment. It really was a win-win for us because he provided a warm body in the NJ. house while we're up here. He maintained the lawn and even got a couple of things fixed that needed fixing. And he covered the cost of the utilities and cable. Of course, once we sell, he'll have to make a decision on his own for once. I truly don't think he's at all interested in following us up here. He has issues with my husband, and he doesn't like the winters. So I'm hoping he finds something that's suitable for him.

I fear he feels he is set.

[catherine]

I fear he feels he is set.

Not really. Maybe for a little while, but once we sell the house, he has to leave.
And the guy isn't all that "set"--he has some cognitive issues, no job skills, a part time minimum wage seasonal job, a very limited amount of money from the sale off the house, and virtually no Social Security credits at 55.

If I were him, I wouldn't feel "set" at all. Hopefully he can get some affordable housing somewhere, or if he were truly smart, he'd move to Florida and get a very inexpensive condo or mobile home (while he still has a few bucks left) near a golf course where he can continue to work in his field. But he's not truly smart.

[Teacher Terry]

How can someone have no SS credits at that age? From working under the table?

[catherine]

Well, he has few. He worked maybe 10 years in a full-time job total, and most were minimum-wage retail jobs. He spent a number of years not working at all, supported by his mother, and then he moved into seasonal minimum-wage jobs and collected unemployment during the winters. So whatever the minimum benefit for SS will be for him, that's what he'll probably get--I think it's about $10k a year. Not sure who can live on that. He'll need to keep working at these low-wage jobs. Plus he's fussy and spoiled. He has a serious rude awakening coming.

[Teacher Terry]

The sheriffs will probably be dragging him out of your house once it sells. He definitely needs low income housing but can’t probably get it while he has money and since he is not a planner there are often lengthy waiting lists. Ugh!

[Ultralight]

Since I got paid today (last weekday of the month) I created/updated my budget for the month. I also set up my envelope system for the month.

And since I started spending mostly cash I have noticed an increased feeling of tight wad-ness. haha

Like I begrudgingly handover my greenbacks...

[iris lilies]

The sheriffs will probably be dragging him out of your house once it sells. He definitely needs low income housing but can’t probably get it while he has money and since he is not a planner there are often lengthy waiting lists. Ugh!

This is what I am afraid of for catherine—an ugly scene getting him out of the house.

But given the fact that he has a little money,
I suppose he could rent an apartment and spend it all there. By then, catherine and hisband will be rid of him.

catherine, what was the outcome of him visitng San
Diego recently and wanting to move there?

[catherine]

This is what I am afraid of for catherine—an ugly scene getting him out of the house.

But given the fact that he has a little money,
I suppose he could rent an apartment and spend it all there. By then, catherine and hisband will be rid of him.

catherine, what was the outcome of him visitng San
Diego recently and wanting to move there?

First of all, good for you, UL! Going real gash definitely makes you think differently about spending.

Now, re BIL, he has no intention of going out there permanently. I really think he's incapable of putting one foot in front of the other. When he came back I showed him nice mobile homes that could have been affordable for him, even for SoCal, but he never bit. He just has a really difficult time with independent thought.

I don't think we'll need a sheriff. He's not that wily or bold. He just knows how to find the path of least resistance.

I'm not worrying about I right now. My son the lawyer told him he'd help him find affordable housing.

[SteveinMN]

Like I begrudgingly handover my greenbacks...
Exactly the point! It's easy to lose track of what money means when it's just numbers on a check or math you do when the plastic-card bill shows up at the end of the month.

[Ultralight]

The envelope method is definitely making me more conscious and more apprehensive about spending. So it seems to be working, even though it is a bit tedious.

[catherine]

The envelope method is definitely making me more conscious and more apprehensive about spending. So it seems to be working, even though it is a bit tedious.

Agreed. You definitely spend more mindfully with cash. Or at least I'll speak for myself.

Interestingly, DH feels that he is less mindful, and he does have a strange habit he's had for as long as I've known him. He can leave the house with $10 or $100, and he'll always come home with $1. He'll never spend every penny--that dollar is always in his pocket at the end of the day, but it's almost like he's on a game show to prove he can spend any amount of cash he has. Talk about tedious: when we did the envelope system, I had to add money to his "personal" money envelope on a daily basis--otherwise he would spend the whole week's money in one day. Some may say, who cares if he blows it all in one day--but he's a smoker, and if there's no money for a smoker to buy smokes, they tend to get a little cranky. So I would be sure a new allotment of smoking money was in his envelope every day. It was way too controlling of a routine for me, and I think that's why we finally just quit the system.

I love DH but I did not marry him for his financial prowess, that's for sure.