View Full Version : Hell may freeze over......
gimmethesimplelife
8-21-18, 9:20am
Trump actually did something I very much approve of. He helped boot a 95 year old SS concentration camp guard back to Germany......apparently this individual was stripped of US Citizenship by a Federal judge back in 2003 but the fact that he did not hold German citizenship and was stateless via this decision slowed things down until Trump came along and did the right thing - helped see to it that this individual was a priority and had worked with Germany to have him extradited to Germany to face the German courts.
This one time I have to give Trump some praise ironically as it sounds in the name of Human Rights and Human Dignity. And what's more, the media is saying that supposedly this is the last known former SS guard in the US (alive at any rate). I hope this is true though I don't know how anyone could be 100 percent certain of this....on the other hand these folks that are still with us are now in their 90's - the herd has thinned considerably due to many such folks having passed by now.
Does anyone else share my joy that this individual is no longer on US soil? Rob
iris lilies
8-21-18, 9:42am
I heard some sort of story on the radio that must have been this one, and all I could think about was “how old is that dude, anyway?” So, 99 is pretty old. I have no “joy” but it is fine with me that this Nazi operator is gone although I do wonder how he has processed his actions during the war. Is he regretful? Does he have sorrow for his victims? He would make an interesting interviewee.
He would make an interesting interviewee.
Indeed.
gimmethesimplelife
8-21-18, 10:44am
I heard some sort of story on the radio that must have been this one, and all I could think about was “how old is that dude, anyway?” So, 99 is pretty old. I have no “joy” but it is fine with me that this Nazi operator is gone although I do wonder how he has processed his actions during the war. Is he regretful? Does he have sorrow for his victims? He would make an interesting interviewee.Your post here was a gut punch to me, IL - let me explain as I totally understand that you did not mean it that way one iota. It's all me here and not you in this reaction. I have been doing some long long long postponed research into Austria's role in the Holocaust, in particular in regards to one of the most deadly of the camps. Mauthausen is the name of the place, very close to Linz, the one city in Austria that truly is ugly. Kind of like Austria's attempt at (sort of) recreating Detroit (though it's not anywhere near that far gone). Let's just say I'm not liking what I have been discovering. Of course I knew that Austria has a very dark past but I did not know of Mauthausen and the atrocities committed there.....nor did I know that a large percentage of SS guards and Nazi party administrators were actually Austrian nationals. It's a bit discomforting.......I'm very grateful that when I spoke of this to my Cousin Astrid in Vienna, she told me she supports me visiting Mauthausen to pray for the many dead and for the human race in general.
At any rate, to get more back on topic.....I agree that this man would be an interesting interviewee in the sense of how could he continue on with his life, recreating a new life for himself in America, after contributing to and witnessing such evil? How does one just pick up and move on with their life, seemingly with no intense moral issues whatsoever? How can this be? I honestly don't understand, I just don't get it. It would be chilling but yet fascinating in a way to get this man's take on this while he is still here to offer his take.........Rob
Teacher Terry
8-21-18, 11:30am
I had a Jewish supervisor at work whose grandma would only hire Polish woman to clean her house. She hates the poles because some of them turned the Jews in during the war and she wanted them to clean her toilets. Trump finally did something I approve of.
Your post here was a gut punch to me, IL - let me explain as I totally understand that you did not mean it that way one iota. It's all me here and not you in this reaction. I have been doing some long long long postponed research into Austria's role in the Holocaust, in particular in regards to one of the most deadly of the camps. Mauthausen is the name of the place, very close to Linz, the one city in Austria that truly is ugly. Kind of like Austria's attempt at (sort of) recreating Detroit (though it's not anywhere near that far gone). Let's just say I'm not liking what I have been discovering. Of course I knew that Austria has a very dark past but I did not know of Mauthausen and the atrocities committed there.....nor did I know that a large percentage of SS guards and Nazi party administrators were actually Austrian nationals. It's a bit discomforting.......I'm very grateful that when I spoke of this to my Cousin Astrid in Vienna, she told me she supports me visiting Mauthausen to pray for the many dead and for the human race in general.
At any rate, to get more back on topic.....I agree that this man would be an interesting interviewee in the sense of how could he continue on with his life, recreating a new life for himself in America, after contributing to and witnessing such evil? How does one just pick up and move on with their life, seemingly with no intense moral issues whatsoever? How can this be? I honestly don't understand, I just don't get it. It would be chilling but yet fascinating in a way to get this man's take on this while he is still here to offer his take.........Rob
Do you know much about your relatives and ancestry? How will you feel if this touches you closer than you think?
at 99, I am wondering if he knows much of anything about the past or now.................
Why be upset over the sins of past family members? Even if Rob’s family tree is full of genocidal war criminals, it says nothing about Rob. You see these television commercials for DNA tests with people enthusing about finding out “who they are”. I want to tell them they may be 42% Irish but they’re 100% ridiculous.
You are what you make of yourself. I could not care less how many of my ancestors were sneak thieves or murderers or New Dealers. Their shame does not attach to me.
Why be upset over the sins of past family members? Even if Rob’s family tree is full of genocidal war criminals, it says nothing about Rob. You see these television commercials for DNA tests with people enthusing about finding out “who they are”. I want to tell them they may be 42% Irish but they’re 100% ridiculous.
You are what you make of yourself. I could not care less how many of my ancestors were sneak thieves or murderers or New Dealers. Their shame does not attach to me.
Oh. Well then. Silly me--I'm fascinated by my ancestors, even the screwy ones. i guess I've been dismissed.
iris lilies
8-21-18, 3:23pm
Why be upset over the sins of past family members? Even if Rob’s family tree is full of genocidal war criminals, it says nothing about Rob. You see these television commercials for DNA tests with people enthusing about finding out “who they are”. I want to tell them they may be 42% Irish but they’re 100% ridiculous.
You are what you make of yourself. I could not care less how many of my ancestors were sneak thieves or murderers or New Dealers. Their shame does not attach to me.
Hey, we just want to identify the coolest culture to appropriate.
I personally find Scottish baronial architecture, single malt Scotch (a newly acquired taste) and Celtic music more interesting than Leiderhosen, beer, and bratwurst. I prefer to be Scottish than Herman (although I am both) and would love it if we were descended from the hundreds of Stuarts born on the wrong side of the blanket.
Lack of curiosity has always puzzled me, but one can't be curious about everything, I guess.
I was just as interested--all right, more interested--in my partner's provenance. Fleeing Spain with the Inquisitors (there's that Catholic Church thing again) on your heels is pretty compelling.
Oh. Well then. Silly me--I'm fascinated by my ancestors, even the screwy ones. i guess I've been dismissed.
It’s one thing to be interested. No more harmful than stamp collecting. It’s quite another to draw your identity from your ancestry.
Hey, we just want to identify the coolest culture to appropriate.
I personally find Scottish baronial architecture, single malt Scotch (a newly acquired taste) and Celtic music more interesting than Leiderhosen, beer, and bratwurst. I prefer to be Scottish and would love it if we were descneded from the hi dreds of Stuarts born on the wrong side of the blanket.
You don’t need a tartan to enjoy two fingers of Old McDivot. This whole cultural appropriation thing has gotten ridiculous. I will grab anything from anywhere that catches my fancy, and I don’t much care who objects.
It’s one thing to be interested. No more harmful than stamp collecting. It’s quite another to draw your identity from your ancestry.
My ancestry is no small part of my identity; it did supply my genes, after all.
Apparently, they were MIA when it came to food preferences--my ancestors must have been habitues of the Silk Road.
Lack of curiosity has always puzzled me, but one can't be curious about everything, I guess.
I was just as interested--all right, more interested--in my partner's provenance. Fleeing Spain with the Inquisitors (there's that Catholic Church thing again) on your heels is pretty compelling.
It’s a nice story. It may even be true. But it’s not your story. Having a bit of Nazi blood should not upset you. Having a heretical ancestor has nothing to do with the state of your soul in the Vatican chart of accounts. Claiming pride or shame from someone else’s life is as silly as holding someone else’s ancestry against him.
iris lilies
8-21-18, 4:06pm
You don’t need a tartan to enjoy two fingers of Old McDivot. This whole cultural appropriation thing has gotten ridiculous. I will grab anything from anywhere that catches my fancy, and I don’t much care who objects.
But this goes to our human desire to be part of tribes and teams. I dont want to be enjoying my McDivot alone or while others are dancing to Ooooompah music and drinking beer. I want to eat haggis and watch laddies and lassies twirl in Highland dances and discuss it all with affienados; it is so much more satisfying when we are fully immirsed into the culture we appropriate.
It’s a nice story. It may even be true. But it’s not your story. Having a bit of Nazi blood should not upset you. Having a heretical ancestor has nothing to do with the state of your soul in the Vatican chart of accounts. Claiming pride or shame from someone else’s life is as silly as holding someone else’s ancestry against him.
He didn't even know until the DNA results came back, and he wasn't nearly as interested as I was. Both his surnames are prominently listed in Inquisition lore. I'd love to trace his line back and find out the details, if possible. Heretical? As if being a Jew or Moor who converted to Christianity and then had the rules changed on them in the middle of the game was something to be ashamed of...
History has always seemed boring to me; having examples of real people involved (as opposed to kings and wars and dates ad nauseum) has definitely fueled my interest. As far as I've been able to tell, I have a couple of murderous ancestors (Saint Olga is a possibility), but if they were psychopaths, that particular trait hasn't been passed along to me. I wouldn't hold anyone's antecedents against them--unless their family tree was particularly rife with miscreants--then, I would precede with caution (and I've never encountered that). At any rate, I find genealogy fascinating--mine and everyone else's.
gimmethesimplelife
8-21-18, 5:01pm
Do you know much about your relatives and ancestry? How will you feel if this touches you closer than you think?Hi Float On,
This already has touched me closer than I'd care for it to as I have relatives in the Gnigl District of Salzburg who not only believe in the Holocaust but think my being gassed for being gay would not be wrong. OUCH! I cut these folks out of my life pronto when they told me this. Now if I find out deeper connections I'm not going to be happy BUT color me Scorpio (which I am), I'd much rather know the truth. No matter how awful it is. Rob
PS I came back to add that I never thought it would happen, but Austria made me cry. Without going into gory details regarding the atrocities committed at the Mauthausen death camp on Austrian soil, what made me cry was when the camp was liberated by American soldiers, the Nazis of course knew the Americans were coming and pulled out quickly - but not before poisoning the food the SS guards and other camp Nazis had access to. This to me was beyond incredibly cruel and was enough for me to break down and cry for humanity. Rob
He didn't even know until the DNA results came back, and he wasn't nearly as interested as I was. Both his surnames are prominently listed in Inquisition lore. I'd love to trace his line back and find out the details, if possible. Heretical? As if being a Jew or Moor who converted to Christianity and then had the rules changed on them in the middle of the game was something to be ashamed of...
History has always seemed boring to me; having examples of real people involved (as opposed to kings and wars and dates ad nauseum) has definitely fueled my interest. As far as I've been able to tell, I have a couple of murderous ancestors (Saint Olga is a possibility), but if they were psychopaths, that particular trait hasn't been passed along to me. I wouldn't hold anyone's antecedents against them--unless their family tree was particularly rife with miscreants--then, I would precede with caution (and I've never encountered that). At any rate, I find genealogy fascinating--mine and everyone else's.
But isn’t geneology just history in the service of vanity? Being bored by history but fascinated by your own pedigree is like being uninterested in art but interested in your own picture.
Well, IL, Charles Stuart the 6th Earl of Moray is my 10th great-grandfather and you are welcome to hang out with me, if you want!
iris lilies
8-21-18, 5:23pm
Well, IL, Charles Stuart the 6th Earl of Moray is my 10th great-grandfather and you are welcome to hang out with me, if you want!
That is excellent!
We stayed in Stuart Castle near Inverness, built by the 3rd Earl Moray,
James Stewart. Your Earl is undoubtedly a relative if not a direct descendant.
that castle stay was one of the top ten experiences of my life. DH and I went once, and several years later brought relatives to stay in the castle. Google it! It is so charming!
Edited to add:I looked ip the Earls of Moray (and I know they were very powerful) and see that 6th Earl is, indeed, g-grandson of the Castle builder.
edited to add more: ooooooo, I see they/you have Cawdor Campbells in their/your bloodline. That is so very exciting! I love Cawdor Castle! Is it also near
Inverness and is currently open to the public with great gardens.
There is a fascinating book by Lisa Campbell about her life growing up in that castle,with a crazy father.
Ultralight
8-21-18, 5:25pm
But isn’t geneology just history in the service of vanity? Being bored by history but fascinated by your own pedigree is like being uninterested in art but interested in your own picture.
Well said.
yeah, the 6th Earl was great-grandson of the 3rd Earl who built the castle. How very cool you got to stay there!!!
But isn’t geneology just history in the service of vanity? Being bored by history but fascinated by your own pedigree is like being uninterested in art but interested in your own picture.
I don't think so. My background isn't terribly interesting, but it's a lot more immediate-seeming than a list of dates and wars. Genealogy is a peg we can hang our history on; from there we can widen the view to see a bigger picture. I find everyone's genealogy interesting--from programs like Who Do You Think You Are? and Finding Your Roots (Henry Louis Gates' slave-era family story is particularly compelling), to books like The Wandering Gene and the Indian Princess, about Jewish genes recently discovered among Mexican populations. I don't know why we should be apologetic about taking an interest in our own family history, but genealogy opens a door to so much more than that.
iris lilies
8-21-18, 5:40pm
yeah, the 6th Earl was great-grandson of the 3rd Earl who built the castle. How very cool you got to stay there!!!
I added more to my post, additionas about your Cawdor
Campbell relatives. One of the Moray Earls married a Cawdor Campbell. They say “Cawdor” to distinguish that branch of Campbell from the fifty other branches of Campbells in Scotland.
Ultralight
8-21-18, 5:41pm
I found out my ancestry. It was amusing. I mostly forgot about it 20 minutes later.
I added more to my post about your Cawdor
Campbell,relatives. One of the Moray Earls married a Cawdor Campbell. They say “Cawdor” to distinguish that branch of Campbell from the fifty other branches of Campbells in Scotland.
I will need to learn more about this--I did not know there was a Campbell connection. I will look into the Lisa Campbell book; I love learning about castle gardens and of course eccentric families. But the gardens!!!!
iris lilies
8-21-18, 5:46pm
I found out my ancestry. It was amusing. I mostly forgot about it 20 minutes later.
We havent been able to crack the genealogy code on our Scottish i,migrant, and I think we have pretty much given up.Maddening. And it wasnt even that long ago, he came to the U.S. around 1880’s. For decades a couple of my competent relatives have worked on it, but no luck. Makes me crazy.
iris lilies
8-21-18, 5:49pm
I will need to learn more about this--I did not know there was a Campbell connection. I will look into the Lisa Campbell book; I love learning about castle gardens and of course eccentric families. But the gardens!!!!
Ok, sorry, maybe you arent a direct descendent of Cawdor
campbells, but 3rd Earl of
Moray’s daughter married Hugh Campbell, Earl of Cawdor. So I guess that Cawdor connection is in your cousins.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Stuart,_3rd_Earl_of_Moray
ToomuchStuff
8-21-18, 5:50pm
But isn’t geneology just history in the service of vanity? Being bored by history but fascinated by your own pedigree is like being uninterested in art but interested in your own picture.
Not if your genetics includes a marker that is known for some disease or such. There is a lot about genetics we know, but I suspect there is still a lot we don't.
For the most part, I know more then I would want to know about my history, but still fear that some day we may find genetic markers that make someone more susceptible to certain kinds of behaviors that may have a biological basis.
Ok, sorry, maybe you arent a direct descendent of Cawdor
campbells, but 3rd Earl of
Moray’s daughter married Hugh Campbell, Earl of Cawdor. So I guess that Cawdor connection is in your cousins.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Stuart,_3rd_Earl_of_Moray
Yes, this looks like a cousin relationship. I know I have Scott, Sterling, Balfour, and Napier ancestors, but I do not know of any Campbells. The book sounds very interesting--have you read Gerald Durrell's My Family and Other Animals? It is a great favorite of mine.
iris lilies
8-21-18, 6:09pm
Yes, this looks like a cousin relationship. I know I have Scott, Sterling, Balfour, and Napier ancestors, but I do not know of any Campbells. The book sounds very interesting--have you read Gerald Durrell's My Family and Other Animals? It is a great favorite of mine.
Ye,
I read a couple of Durrell books.
I heard a commentator say that Trump has not worked to add to his base except for Jews - moving the embassy to Jerusalem etc. This decision may be part of that same move to draw in that voting bloc.
Rob, I am glad this low-level government functionary was held to account. Just because someone is low level does not absolve them of moral responsibility.
Beyond just the guards many ordinary people subsidized their lifestyles with stolen Jewish homes, businesses, and goods. It was affluent Jews who could sometimes escape and it was disproportionately poorer Jews who were trapped. Those who survived and went back to their hometowns after the war were often not welcomed, because the new owners did not want to pay them back. Yet those whose assets were now above average due to their pillage still clung to myths of rich Jews and felt entitled to this subsidizing even as their dispossessed former neighbors returned. Hence the state of Israel.
An excellent book is Neighbors: The Destruction of the Jewish Community in Jedwabne, Poland. It details Polish participation in genocide, and did much to start an ongoing conversation about how the general population knew about, condoned, and benefitted from the Holocaust throughout Eastern Europe.
Teacher Terry
11-29-18, 11:01pm
Yes I have read stories about what some of the Poles did to Jews. Many never got their homes or possessions back. I am part Polish and my son married a wonderful woman from Poland. But people are people so bad apples everywhere. I worked with a Jewish woman whose grandma would only hire a Polish woman to clean. She felt happy that she was cleaning her toilets.
Definitely not just a Polish issue TT. Historians are now trying to find the massacre sites while there are living witnesses, who were children at the time. How would a child know? Because this didn't just happen out in the woods. Many pogroms were within town limits, just as lynchings in the US used to be mass spectator events.
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