Pope Francis Should Resign

[Williamsmith]

I admit to ignorance regarding the administration of the Catholic Church and to a superficial understanding of the heinous crimes of serial pedophilia committed by priests and then covered up by the Church hierarchy.......

but in light of the revelations laid out by the Attorney General of Pennsylvania, and the outcry of church members worldwide, as we know Pennsylvania is only a symptom of worldwide abuse of children by the Church......Pope Francis, having been responsible for failure to act on this crisis and even indications of complicity in a conspiracy to cover up crimes committed against his on laity...should resign.

The apocalyptic nature of this condition on the Catholic Church must be acknowledged and current leadership should be purged. Catholics are fleeing the church in record numbers. The Church has become a scourge against innocents, preying on the very people it should be protecting. It’s time we quit pretending that a bunch of men in robes knows more about being moral and righteous than the rest of us and assume perhaps they know only how to wear dresses.

[Yppej]

They will never cease to attract pedophiles as long as they deny normal sexual desires and mandate that priests be celibate.

Buddhist monks in Thailand and China have been involved in similar scandals. It is not something unique to Catholicism.

[sweetana3]

Have to add that this is not a new issue in the Church. I remember reading about a similar (although only one or a few priests) in the 70s. They were moved around and sent to psychiatric "treatment" centers.

Throw in the nuns running schools and the Irish laundry scandal and I think it is more about power. Give anyone too much power over others and some will fail and take great advantage. The laundries were a profit making business for the church.

[rosarugosa]

My contempt for the catholic church knows no bounds. I know many people love the current pope, but as far as I'm concerned, he is still the leader of one of the most evil organizations on the planet. (I was catholic until I became an atheist at age 11).
I agree that denying normal sexual release helps foster the climate of abuse.

[Ultralight]

Religion.

[razz]

Do you not think that pedophilia, pornography, sexual abuse and coverups have not been going on for centuries? The MeToo movement? The Catholic Church is not unique in this. Celibacy does contribute to the problem, I think, but it is going on in homes around the world.

It may finally be the MeToo for the scourge of pedophilia that is long overdue.

No, I do not think that the Pope should resign but rather provide leadership in leading the way ahead to deal with this. Simply replacing the current figurehead with another who has not demonstrated the leadership that the current Pope has shown will solve nothing. Those demanding he resign are noise makers trying to regain power for themselves. I am not a Catholic in any way, BTW.

[Williamsmith]

Do you not think that pedophilia, pornography, sexual abuse and coverups have not been going on for centuries? The MeToo movement? The Catholic Church is not unique in this. Celibacy does contribute to the problem, I think, but it is going on in homes around the world.

It may finally be the MeToo for the scourge of pedophilia that is long overdue.

No, I do not think that the Pope should resign but rather provide leadership in leading the way ahead to deal with this. Simply replacing the current figurehead with another who has not demonstrated the leadership that the current Pope has shown will solve nothing. Those demanding he resign are noise makers trying to regain power for themselves. I am not a Catholic in any way, BTW.

Razz, let’s acknowledge that the Catholic Church is unique in its world position as a standard bearer for moral behavior yet protects and shields its priests from the application of criminal justice at the expense of the lives of innocent children. And also one should be aware that the leadership of the Catholic Church has been on notice regarding this heinous behavior for many years. That the current leadership has not only shown a disinterest in correcting it but there is evidence that it has been complicit in covering up crimes as accomplices. Only a true purge of current leadership can be the solution, and that includes the very popular but flawed Holy Father Pope Francis.

[LDAHL]

As an actual Catholic, I appreciate the concern and helpful advice from so many non-Catholic and lapsed Catholic well-wishers. I’m sure it comes from a place of love.

My view is that the perpetrators of these crimes should be treated like any other criminals. I would also like to see the current Pontiff take rigorous action against any who failed in their duty rather than murmur sweet Marxist nothings to an approving press.

Anything less would be a gift to the anti-Catholic bigotry that has stained the histories of this and other countries.

[oldhat]

The conduct of the Catholic church hierarchy in response to sexual abuse by priests can only be described as depraved, but I'd be wary of these charges against the current pope. Francis is loathed by many conservatives in the church, so I'd reserve judgment in the absence of solid evidence.

On other other hand, I've been told by Catholic friends that Benedict was up to his eyeballs in covering up sexual abuse, which may be the reason he resigned.

[catherine]

The conduct of the Catholic church hierarchy in response to sexual abuse by priests can only be described as depraved, but I'd be wary of these charges against the current pope. Francis is loathed by many conservatives in the church, so I'd reserve judgment in the absence of solid evidence.



Thank you for mentioning the internal politics at the Vatican.
I read this story yesterday in the NYT which sheds some light on the motives the conservatives have in throwing Francis under the bus.
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/08/27/world/europe/pope-francis-vigano-mccarrick.html?action=click&module=Top%20Stories&pgtype=Homepage

I agree that the perpetrators have to be dealt with, skeletons have to come out of the closet and at this point the institution of the Church has to take a good hard look at itself. I personally believe that priests need to be allowed to marry, and I also think that Francis started out as breath of fresh air and I would like to see him continue to fight the status quo.

[Williamsmith]

To absolve Francis simply because conservatives would count it a blessing and cheer if he resigned.....is to start off with a bias that could sidetrack clear investigation and punishment of participants. Whatever fondness you have for his liberal applications has to be shelved in respect of victims. He deserves scrutiny as if the alt right did not exist.

[ToomuchStuff]

If he resigned, what would the pool be? Are there bishops who have not been around during any of these events/scandals? Who have not had to deal with things such as forgiveness/absolution/sanctity of the confessional, etc?

[catherine]

To absolve Francis simply because conservatives would count it a blessing and cheer if he resigned.....is to start off with a bias that could sidetrack clear investigation and punishment of participants. Whatever fondness you have for his liberal applications has to be shelved in respect of victims. He deserves scrutiny as if the alt right did not exist.

I'm saying that maybe he doesn't need to be "absolved." I think the article suggested that he may have been framed for complicity where it may/may not exist. But yes, of course his actions need to be scrutinized. The actions of the offending clergy are heinous, and proper leadership is in order, for sure. I admit to a strong emotional connection to the Catholic Church even though I'm not even Catholic anymore, so your charges of bias may apply. But like any institution, it is vulnerable to corruption and an instinct toward self-preservation. I hope they can rise to the occasion and do what's right.

[SteveinMN]

To absolve Francis simply because conservatives would count it a blessing and cheer if he resigned.....is to start off with a bias that could sidetrack clear investigation and punishment of participants. Whatever fondness you have for his liberal applications has to be shelved in respect of victims. He deserves scrutiny as if the alt right did not exist.
I'm not Catholic; never have been. I have many friends who are; most of them are fairly liberal about the religion. Even more of them essentially are lapsed.

I see, in the calls for Francis' resignation, the same lack of nuance the #MeToo movement exhibits. Don't get me wrong; MeToo serves a very valuable function in illustrating the scope of sexual harrassment in our society. But I think there may be a lack of perspective in treating people like Al Franken (his poor judgment documented some time ago but, on balance, a political career spent positively addressing women's issues) as harshly as serial harrasser and rapist Harvey Weinstein.

In the same vein, Francis has done a lot of good for the Catholic Church. While I believe his current "won't-speak-a-word" stance needs to be challenged and his (alleged) participation in coverups years ago examined (and, if necessary, censured), I don't believe ousting him will replace him with someone as relatively enlightened as he is now. My experience is that organizations tend toward self-protection. Francis is nowhere near as protective of the organization as his predecessors. I would not like to see his good work put asunder by behavior of the past in which he would not engage now.

[Miss Cellaneous]

Speaking as a Catholic, I think Francis might do a better job at dealing with these issues than many of the men who might replace him if he resigns.

What we need is someone who can admit the wrongdoing, clear out those complicit with the cover-ups, and start the Church out on a fresh path.

The Catholic Church has weathered popes who poisoned their rivals, the selling of salvation to gain money for the Church, and many other scandals. I think it will weather this, but only if the issue is really dealt with. You'd think they would have learned after the last big incident, with all the priests in Boston.

Although I'm not sure about married priests. They would not be able to use birth control, so most of them would have several kids. The average parish priest is not paid very much--their stipends wouldn't cover new sneakers for the kids, let alone college or vacations or bicycles. And the wife wouldn't be able to work much out of the home, because of being pregnant all the time. I'm not sure the Church can afford married priests. ;)

(Just a sidenote. The Church does have some married priests--Anglican or Episcopalian priests who are married and then convert to Roman Catholicism can remain married. So there is precedent.)

[catherine]

Speaking as a Catholic, I think Francis might do a better job at dealing with these issues than many of the men who might replace him if he resigns.

What we need is someone who can admit the wrongdoing, clear out those complicit with the cover-ups, and start the Church out on a fresh path.

The Catholic Church has weathered popes who poisoned their rivals, the selling of salvation to gain money for the Church, and many other scandals. I think it will weather this, but only if the issue is really dealt with. You'd think they would have learned after the last big incident, with all the priests in Boston.

Although I'm not sure about married priests. They would not be able to use birth control, so most of them would have several kids. The average parish priest is not paid very much--their stipends wouldn't cover new sneakers for the kids, let alone college or vacations or bicycles. And the wife wouldn't be able to work much out of the home, because of being pregnant all the time. I'm not sure the Church can afford married priests. ;)


I agree with you about the practicality of married priests, but the conundrum is that sex is a primary biological drive, no matter what your religion is. And I'm speaking as a person as far from being a sexual free spirit as I can be. (I was one of those mothers who evaded "the talk" with my kids as long as I could. And even when I got to it, I was a total failure.)

The Church has to address that reality. So maybe they develop the lay community--deacons for example--to support priests. But I still don't see how asking a huge swath of men or women to live celibate lives is sustainable, without being a tinder box for sexual abuse.

[Ultralight]

Law enforcement should raid the Vatican. Smoke'em out of their holes, to use a metaphor.

[Ultralight]

When I was a kid I got the gut feeling that priests were usually creeps. I avoided them and at my mom's suggestion that I become an altar boy I was like: "Hell, no!"

[razz]

Priests are not all 'creeps'. Lawyers are not all 'thieves'. Police are not all 'murderers'. Politicians are not all 'losers'.The hyperbole demonstrates foolishness bordering on stupidity.
Guess it is time for me to take a break from the SLF. See ya in a while!

[Ultralight]

Priests are not all 'creeps'. Lawyers are not all 'thieves'. Police are not all 'murderers'. Politicians are not all 'losers'.The hyperbole demonstrates foolishness bordering on stupidity.
Guess it is time for me to take a break from the SLF. See ya in a while!

Let me quote myself: "When I was a kid I got the gut feeling that priests were usually creeps."

[catherine]

Let me quote myself: "When I was a kid I got the gut feeling that priests were usually creeps."



So when did you get over that feeling?

[Geila]

Last night on the news: the Catholic church spent $2.3 million on a retirement home for a San Jose bishop: https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/08/26/san-jose-diocese-buys-bishop-2-3-million-retirement-home/

Just another sad example of poor decision-making.

[oldhat]

Last night on the news: the Catholic church spent $2.3 million on a retirement home for a San Jose bishop: https://www.mercurynews.com/2018/08/26/san-jose-diocese-buys-bishop-2-3-million-retirement-home/

Just another sad example of poor decision-making.

A former Catholic girlfriend of mine used to continually gnash her teeth about this sort of thing. One time the local bishop, who lived in two rooms in a seminary, passed away and was replaced by a guy who promptly purchased a large house in a posh suburb, complete with a staff of nuns to wait on him. I expect she was cheering when Francis declined to live in the papal palace in favor of more modest accommodations.

There's nothing biased about pointing out that right-wing Catholics have a political ax to grind and therefore might have less than completely pure motives in attacking Francis. I have no dog in this hunt, so we'll see how it shakes out.

[Williamsmith]

Somehow I don’t get the feeling that Pope Francis has a placard on his desk that reads, “The buck stops here.” Not by his response thus far. I would be happy to be wrong about that. But speaking as someone who has sat in a room with many a child who has been sexually abused......and some by the clergy.....I hope there is a special place in a literal hell for the perpetrators. These kids will never be the same again.....

[Teacher Terry]

As a past SW most kids are abused by their dad’s or step dad’s. Yes I hate them. Priests need to be able to marry and nothing good will come from getting rid of Francis. No dog in the fight either.

[iris lilies]

As a past SW most kids are abused by their dad’s or step dad’s.


.

WHAT? WHAT?

I think you probably mean: children who are abused are usually abused by the father figure in their household.

[Teacher Terry]

The kids dad’s or step dads. Sometimes dear old grandpa.

[Ultralight]

So when did you get over that feeling?

I think they are still mostly creeps, but not necessarily all dangerous creeps. I will say this: My gut feeling helped ensure I was not abused by priests.

I will say that the Catholic church at large is a creepy institution and is one heck of testament to how the brainwashing of children can last throughout an entire life even in the face of witnessing the most horrible crimes being committed and then covered up.

Watch the movie Spotlight. Then come join me at a Recovering From Religion/Life After Belief meeting!

[flowerseverywhere]

Catholic schools held a lot of power over the students in the ones I attended. And if we had come home complaining of abuse we would have been branded liars.
How can you give money to a church that did not jail, or at least remove the priests from further contact with victims? It is beyond me. If people did not put money in the basket, instead find a worthwhile charity they could break the back of the current church hierarchy

perhaps women need to be in the ranks. All these white men haven’t done so well.

[JaneV2.0]

As someone who is CINO, still on the Church rolls somewhere, I have mixed feelings about the Church. It is firmly planted in the Middle Ages--or maybe the Renaissance, if I'm feeling charitable--and there is much about it I would change. But the more progressive parishes have done a lot of good. Maybe it's time for another Reformation...

[Ultralight]

Catholic schools held a lot of power over the students in the ones I attended.

I went to Catholic school for one day. The consensus was: "Not a good fit for anyone."

Hell, they were glad when I was allowed to quit CCD because they did not like me running amok intellectually and asking upsetting questions.


And if we had come home complaining of abuse we would have been branded liars.

Still worth it, I think, to make a justified accusation.


How can you give money to a church that did not jail, or at least remove the priests from further contact with victims?

Intellectual contortionism. That is how it is done.


It is beyond me. If people did not put money in the basket, instead find a worthwhile charity they could break the back of the current church hierarchy

Or just keep it for groceries.


perhaps women need to be in the ranks. All these white men haven’t done so well.

Women all over the US sexually assault middle school and high school kids. Google it. Teachers abusing students. It happened at my high school back in the day!

And the pope is a Latino. I seriously doubt being white and male is the problem.

[Teacher Terry]

UL, many more men abuse than women. Look at the stats.

[iris lilies]

I have a naive question: why is this church abuse issue coming up now? Have there been recent documented cases that the pope himself failed to address? Or, are we talking about decades old stuff?

I have not been paying attention because I have already heard all of it. Unless, there are newly uncovered cases of
RECENT origin, those I dont know about.

[Ultralight]

UL, many more men abuse than women. Look at the stats.

Could there be an issue with reporting?

[Yppej]

IL another church official issued a statement saying he warned Francis about the situation and he did nothing.

[Ultralight]

Cover up after cover up. Classic Catholic style.

[Williamsmith]

I have a naive question: why is this church abuse issue coming up now? Have there been recent documented cases that the pope himself failed to address? Or, are we talking about decades old stuff?

I have not been paying attention because I have already heard all of it. Unless, there are newly uncovered cases of
RECENT origin, those I dont know about.

In answer to your question:

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2018/06/pa_attorney_general_says_hell.html

And this should make you want to puke:

”On Sunday, a former Vatican ambassador to the U.S. released a statement charging that the pope knew about allegations against former Washington Archbishop (Cardinal) Theodore McCarrick, who has been credibly accused of sexual misconduct with seminarians and even minors.”

https://www.pennlive.com/news/2018/08/ag_shapiro_we_have_evidence_va.html

[flowerseverywhere]

I went to Catholic school for one day. The consensus was: "Not a good fit for anyone."

Hell, they were glad when I was allowed to quit CCD because they did not like me running amok intellectually and asking upsetting questions.



Still worth it, I think, to make a justified accusation.



Intellectual contortionism. That is how it is done.



Or just keep it for groceries.



Women all over the US sexually assault middle school and high school kids. Google it. Teachers abusing students. It happened at my high school back in the day!

And the pope is a Latino. I seriously doubt being white and male is the problem.

when you are a child in an abusive home you certainly don’t come home and report church abuse. You try to survive. Which is why you make a good target.
The US Catholic Church was run by almost exclusively white men. The recent Pennsylvania report has resurfaced the call for pope to resign.

[iris lilies]

I am not apologizing for the Pope, for the Catholic clergy, or for the pervasive coverup of child molestation in the Church.

I am saying for myself, as a news consuming citizen (granted
I dont focus much in The News any more) this seems old, uninteresting “news.” These revelations have been going on for years. This specific news covers “7 decades” and seems to focus on a letter from 1963. ? The statute of limitation has run out. I dont care about seminarians, anyway. They are adults.

I am more interested in what the Church is doing NOW, now that they have this giant body of criminal activity exposed. Have they truly changed? What happens NOW to a priest who molests children?

We were friends with a neighbor, a former priest, who spent time in jail for molestation. It was about 15 years ago. He was an Episcopal priest. He said his victim was 17 years old, nearly 18. A good story, dont know if it is true.

[Teacher Terry]

UL, no men are sexual predators in much larger numbers than women. Just as they are more often serial killers than women. Maybe testerone has something to do with it.

[Rogar]

It seems to me like the Catholic Church has improved exponentially since parishioners were not burned for possessing the bible in their native language and the days of the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre are long gone. I don't think replacing the pope would change anything. Allowing priests to marry would go a log ways to resolving the root cause of things. In a discussion with a cranky uncle the issue of priest marriage came up. He said not only should they be allowed to marry, but it should be a requirement.

[Yppej]

Yesterday on the news I heard that New Jersey set up a hotline for state residents to report abuse by priests. The phone lines were so jammed people couldn't get through and they had to hire a bunch more people to work in the call center.

[rosarugosa]

Yesterday on the news I heard that New Jersey set up a hotline for state residents to report abuse by priests. The phone lines were so jammed people couldn't get through and they had to hire a bunch more people to work in the call center.

I readily admit to having a sick sense of humor. This is frigging hilarious!

[pinkytoe]

As a child, the Catholic Church taught me the value of empathy and forgiveness. And guilt. But that's about it. I bet this cloistered pedophilia stuff within the church has been going on for centuries. Interesting how men all over the place are being called out for lack of control over their little heads.

[Williamsmith]

As a child, the Catholic Church taught me the value of empathy and forgiveness. And guilt. But that's about it. I bet this cloistered pedophilia stuff within the church has been going on for centuries. Interesting how men all over the place are being called out for lack of control over their little heads.

Its not about sex. It’s about power.

[Packratona!]

Its not about sex. It’s about power.

It is about both. Desire for something that does not belong to you (also called covetousness, as it "Thou shalt not Covet", and then theft of it. Sad that this is built into the culture of the church from the beginning. It is a part of it. Watch your kids very very closely if you take them to church. May look safe, but it is not. Wolves in sheep's clothing.

[Packratona!]

It seems to me like the Catholic Church has improved exponentially since parishioners were not burned for possessing the bible in their native language and the days of the St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre are long gone. I don't think replacing the pope would change anything. Allowing priests to marry would go a log ways to resolving the root cause of things. In a discussion with a cranky uncle the issue of priest marriage came up. He said not only should they be allowed to marry, but it should be a requirement.

It is required in observant Judaism, a rabbi has to be married and also have children. Otherwise he is considered not qualified. This rule is also stated in the Christian scriptures too, actually.

[Yppej]

This rule is also stated in the Christian scriptures too, actually.
Where? 1 Timothy 1:2 says be the husband of one wife (rather than a polygamist) but says nothing about having children.

[Packratona!]

Where? 1 Timothy 1:2 says be the husband of one wife (rather than a polygamist) but says nothing about having children.

Yes, you are right. Also do not have to have children in Judaism, just have to be "trying". Sorry I miswrote.