Reflections of a break-up

[Ultralight]

I am reflecting on what caused my recent break-up, what I would want in future relationships (and if I actually do want future relationships), and how I can do better.

Some of these things I have thought about before, some I have not, and some I have just not taken as seriously as I ought to.

One thing I was thinking about is how I simply must find someone who is also a minimalist. I have known this but did not take it seriously. But this absolutely has to be a deal breaker issue.

I have asked my closest friend and confidante to remind me of this when I start dating again. She is to really get on my case about it!

Another point I reflected on is how I need to make this very clear to anyone I date: My facial expressions, tone of voice, and meaning in my communication are not always congruent and to always trust what I say.

Sometimes my tone sounds fake or bland or upset when I am not any of those. Same goes for my facial expressions. This lack of congruence has been a longstanding problem in my interactions with other humans.

Anyone else go through break-ups recent or in the distant past that taught you some important lessons?

[Williamsmith]

Is your “minimalism” bordering on religious fanaticism and possibly projected onto your relationships to the point that you treat your partners as objects? It would explain some things. While I believe minimalistic attitudes are beneficial to a wholesome and fulfilled lifestyle.....I also think taken to the extreme, it can be detrimental to ones relationships. My drawer full of rolled up socks, underwear and t-shirts Marie Kondo style drives my wife crazy but she tolerates my idiocincrisies. Plenty of working relationships consist of persons with wildly different opinions and beliefs.

[Ultralight]

Is your “minimalism” bordering on religious fanaticism and possibly projected onto your relationships to the point that you treat your partners as objects? It would explain some things. While I believe minimalistic attitudes are beneficial to a wholesome and fulfilled lifestyle.....I also think taken to the extreme, it can be detrimental to ones relationships. My drawer full of rolled up socks, underwear and t-shirts Marie Kondo style drives my wife crazy but she tolerates my idiocincrisies. Plenty of working relationships consist of persons with wildly different opinions and beliefs.

I would say that minimalism is like my religion. And as I told the women I have dated: "If you want to marry the Rabbi then you have to convert to Judaism. I am the Rabbi of minimalism."

But as for treating people like objects, I am not sure what you mean. Can you explain more?

[Williamsmith]

As a religious observer of minimalism.....is it possible that the focus of your life being reducing the number of things could be translated to your partner. That you look at them more “objectively” than you do relationally. I can say that my experience has taught me that relationship relies on sacrifice and compromise. Religious diligence can become intolerance and that becomes a threat to your partner. In other words, a relationship puts your partner first over your ideology because even though there are disagreements both can still pull in the same direction given mutual compromise.

[herbgeek]

But as for treating people like objects, I am not sure what you mean. Can you explain more?

I'm responding even though I'm not the person that said it.

When your dream person is a very long list of attributes, to me, it sounds very much like you are purchasing a product off of Amazon. You might get exactly what you asked for, but you also could be missing wonderful serendipity, and traits you never thought you would want/like.

[Tybee]

As a religious observer of minimalism.....is it possible that the focus of your life being reducing the number of things could be translated to your partner. That you look at them more “objectively” than you do relationally. I can say that my experience has taught me that relationship relies on sacrifice and compromise. Religious diligence can become intolerance and that becomes a threat to your partner. In other words, a relationship puts your partner first over your ideology because even though there are disagreements both can still pull in the same direction given mutual compromise.

William, I think this is a really good generalization about how relationships work. It's another way of saying, "Do you want to be right, or do you want to be happy?"

[Zoe Girl]

I would say that minimalism is like my religion. And as I told the women I have dated: "If you want to marry the Rabbi then you have to convert to Judaism. I am the Rabbi of minimalism."

But as for treating people like objects, I am not sure what you mean. Can you explain more?

See that is where I fundamentally disagree, I don't think you both need to be Jewish. Love and relationships are not about being the same, but about appreciating each other and caring deeply about the welfare of the other person. My parents, who have been married 50 years, almost dress alike at this point, However they have had to compromise. My dad would like nothing on the walls and almost no decorations. My mom wants and likes those things. So they have somewhere in the middle, and my mom has her office she can spread out projects in as much as she likes, my dad has his tools organized very carefully. Sometimes they fuss as each other (my mom bough single ply toilet paper after all) but they work it out.

You said on another thread that minimalists are individualistic, so how is is to have an expectation that another person is individualistic however is also in agreement with you? One person could be a minimalist in another style after all, have few kitchen supplies and eat out all the time, while you may have a kitchen that is well equipped to be minimalist about going out. One person could have a lot of clothes because they collected over the years and don't care to shop but always having something nice to wear, another could have a small wardrobe and be willing to shop immediately if something is needed.

[SteveinMN]

Anyone else go through break-ups recent or in the distant past that taught you some important lessons?
Ha. Hee-hee! Who hasn't? :~)

IMHO if a person doesn't learn some useful/valuable things about themselves after a breakup they just aren't paying attention and they're going to make the same mistake in the future. Not that the lesson always has to be negative: I was fine with dating someone for a while and learning, "Oh, I didn't think that was important to me but it turns out it really is!". To me, that's the "work" of ending a relationship, and it has to be done for growth to occur.

I did much better in relationships when I a) cast a wider net; and b) approached meeting a woman as possibly making a new friend rather than as a romantic partner. I found this took a lot of the pressure off the relationship. I have several friends who have some values quite different from mine. Sure, there are some initial dealbreakers: I don't want to be friends with someone who smokes (tobacco, anyway); I would have a hard time sharing values with someone who voted for tRump and doesn't now regret it. But I can be friends with people who like to buy all the toys and the house to put them in, or who love death metal music or eating circus peanuts. Surely you have friends who are not African-American or into minimalism or traveling?

If a new friendship deepens I can then apply any remaining dealbreakers and preferences and choose to stay friends without becoming full-time romantic partners. (I'm fully aware that I am not the sole decider in this; it can work the other way, too.) This also helps avoid the trap of staying in a relationship you don't care for because you don't want to give up the sex (not saying that's the case for you but it is for some people).

Like many people, I have this mental fantasy about "the perfect person on paper". DW does not tick all the boxes on that list. Neither does the other woman I've loved most in my life (n.b., not my first wife). Yet I will happily share the rest of my life with DW based on who she actually is (same would go for that other woman, too; that one was not my decision). But I had to be open to going "off the menu" and finding someone I truly liked and appreciated.

[LDAHL]

Listen to Steve.

If you can get 80% of what you’re looking for from one person who is willing to tolerate you, grab her. I don’t mean literally grab her. That would be wrong.

If ever there was an area of life where the perfect was the enemy of the good, it is relationships. Take it from an old fussy guy who bumbled into something wonderful despite himself

[catherine]

One thing I was thinking about is how I simply must find someone who is also a minimalist. I have known this but did not take it seriously. But this absolutely has to be a deal breaker issue.


I'm not going to get on your case about making minimalism an essential shared value, and a "deal breaker." We all have deal breakers of some kind. I wouldn't date a married man, for instance. My son's ex-gf's deal-breaker was no alcohol, ever, and he couldn't live with that so they broke up, even though he was madly in love with her. Some people think smoking is a deal-breaker.

So it's not a huge deal about the minimalism thing. It might be really hard to find someone though. I don't think there are many minimalists out there. Are there any minimalist dating sites around? :)

I am sorry about the break up, but glad you are using it as a tool for self-awareness.

As for me, I can only say that there were times over the 41 years we've been married when I WISHED DH and I would break up. But, looking at the big picture, I think we're stuck with each other for better or worse, for richer for poorer, in sickness and health. My take-away from that is "the heart has its reasons which reason knows not."

[JaneV2.0]

Rigid people have difficulties with relationships, I imagine. Think Ted Kaczynski.

At any rate, I would forgo dating for awhile, or at least quit obsessing over it.

Is Asperger's a consideration here?

[Ultralight]

Rigid people have difficulties with relationships, I imagine. Think Ted Kaczynski.

At any rate, I would forgo dating for awhile, or at least quit obsessing over it.

Is Asperger's a consideration here?

Agreed about rigid people.

Also: I think your view that I am obsessing is a bit off. You really only know me here. Much of my time yesterday was spent: sketching, cooking breakfast, working out before work, taking Harlan on a long walk, reading a book, etc.

One women broke up with me and told me this: "You are a lot like that guy from the Big Bang Theory, Sheldon." He is apparently a character with Aspergers.

[Ultralight]

Remember, I make lots of compromises in relationships. Here is a loooooong list of things I compromise on.
-Drinking (I effing hate alcohol, but social drinking is acceptable in a partner)
-Religion (I effing hate religion, it poisons everything, but liberal religious people are fine)
-A cat (I effing hate litter boxes, but Harlan doesn't mind cats, so why not?)
-Traveling in the US (I don't have interest in it, but I would date a "state collector" and travel with her)
-Age (I would prefer to date someone in my age bracket, 35-50, but if I met a really amazing 20 year old or 65 year old I would go for it!)

There are others, but these is a good cross-section. It illustrates how I am quite willing to compromise on things.

[Williamsmith]

Remember, I make lots of compromises in relationships. Here is a loooooong list of things I compromise on.
-Drinking (I effing hate alcohol, but social drinking is acceptable in a partner)
-Religion (I effing hate religion, it poisons everything, but liberal religious people are fine)
-A cat (I effing hate litter boxes, but Harlan doesn't mind cats, so why not?)
-Traveling in the US (I don't have interest in it, but I would date a "state collector" and travel with her)
-Age (I would prefer to date someone in my age bracket, 35-50, but if I met a really amazing 20 year old or 65 year old I would go for it!)

There are others, but these is a good cross-section. It illustrates how I am quite willing to compromise on things.

UL, you seem like a gratuitous list maker. Listmakers make lists because it makes them feel good about themselves. There a few few things in life you can’t list and make the list meaningful.....stars would be one, another would be compromises in a relationship. Compromise occurs each time you take a breath.

[iris lilies]

How must the minimalism manifest itself?

Could you tolerate this hypothetical situation? : Your girlfriend is financially responsible (has no student loans!) and saves a lot of money and plans to retire at age 50,using the 4% rule. She makes good money. She is not a collector of stuff. Her apartment is lightly furnished with a number of items that most people would consider a normal amount but on the light side. Her house is always neat and tidy.

she says “hey ULBabe, We could get hitched but I dont want to live the strict minimalist life you require in your space, so why dont we buy a duplex together or get adjoining apartments?

I am trying to figure out if you can tolerate someone else’s space that isnt strictly minimal. Does that bother you, or is it the idea that your own space will become cluttered with crap that you cannot stand?

Are you actually triggered when crap shows up at your house? If I visited you and brought gifts of a pile of newspapers from your home town, several used kitchen pots and pans, two pairs of pants, 3 dogs toys for Harlan, a framed poster of somethng you like, and a Indian food cookbook, would all of this stuff make you anxious? Or just annoyed?

[Chicken lady]

A long time ago I shut down a potential relationship with a very nice young man because his dealbreakers were Buddhism and vegetarianism. I told him I had no philosophical issues with Buddhism, but I couldn’t see myself ever becoming a vegetarian. Now i’m a vegetarian who would probably make a terrible Buddhist.

try something new - date women who make you question everything you think you know about yourself. If nothing else, it would be an interesting experiment, no?

[Chicken lady]

Also, I would like to share a quote with you from dh - we were discussing my struggles with exhaustion/low energy/depression/being chronically overwhelmed.

and he said “your biggest problem is that you keep trying to live your life according to your values.”

and i thought “WHAT?! How else am I supposed to live my life?”

and he said “just lighten up.”

[Teacher Terry]

So in 1998 I meet my DH through some friends. We end up with a good size group of people that are newly single ages 35-55. We were doing group things together and having a blast. He moves into my condo and for 2 years never talk politics and then the 2000 election comes around. Yikes he is a Republican:)) After a few arguments we never discuss politics. We have so much fun together and he makes me laugh everyday. We both had to compromise on the home front as far as stuff and messes. Well worth it.

[Ultralight]

Just remember, a potential 'she' has to compromise a lot too.

Oh, I know!


To me the amount of school loan debt you carry would be a deal breaker it would make we question your decision making skills.

Oh, it made me question my decision-making skills too! Which is why I changed my behavior regarding money. I am light years ahead of where I was in my 20s.


So, maybe list what you offer to a potential relationship.




How would you write a on-line dating bio? Or did you run that by us once before? That sounds like a discussion we've had here in the past.

Self Summary:

I’m looking for a potential life partner, a woman who is compassionate, bright, and lives a fairly healthy lifestyle. Sharing a lifestyle and values is important. I am passionate about simple living and I'm a practicing minimalist. I own very few things. I enjoy reading widely. I have a rescue dog. His name is Harlan.

What I am doing with my life:
I have been doing some boring financial research at a foundation for a few years now.

I am really good at:
Unconventional ways of thinking, creating unorthodox solutions, and being reliable.

My Golden Rule:

"We're here to help each other through this, whatever it is." -Vonnegut

Favorite books, movies, shows, music, food:

Books: Things Fall Apart, Steppenwolf, Walden, Cat's Cradle, Infidel, Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, Welcome to the Monkey House, Redefining Realness, Walden On Wheels, Blindness, The Cave, Beneath The Wheel, Meridian, The Big Tiny, Brave New World.

Movies: Idiocracy, Happy Happy, Planet of The Apes (all of them! haha), Mad Max II and VI, Food, Inc.

Music: David Bowie, Joni Mitchell, Steely Dan, Donna Summer, Nina Simone, Willie Nelson, Waylon Jennings, Hank Jr., and Alice Cooper, George Clinton & P-Funk

Food: Indian, Ethiopian, Somali

I don't own a TV, so I am unfamiliar with most shows.

Six things I could never do without:
I am a minimalist and live very simply, so I don't need much to be content.

I spend a lot of time thinking about:
The environment. Faraway places. Books.

On a typical Friday night I am:
Hanging out with friends, fishing at a lake, or maybe reading a book if I am tired.

If I were sent to jail, I'd have been arrested for:
Protesting.

You should message me if:
You're a smart, frugal, minimalist who loves dogs, books, and travel!

[Ultralight]

Compromise occurs each time you take a breath.

Sounds horrible.

[Ultralight]

These are really good and thought-provoking questions!


How must the minimalism manifest itself?

It must manifest itself in most spheres to one degree or another.


Could you tolerate this hypothetical situation? : Your girlfriend is financially responsible (has no student loans!) and saves a lot of money and plans to retire at age 50,using the 4% rule. She makes good money. She is not a collector of stuff. Her apartment is lightly furnished with a number of items that most people would consider a normal amount but on the light side. Her house is always neat and tidy.

Yes, I could tolerate that.


she says “hey ULBabe, We could get hitched but I dont want to live the strict minimalist life you require in your space, so why dont we buy a duplex together or get adjoining apartments?

I would say: "Howzabout we keep the apartment at its current level of stuff, maybe a little less, and then I just get my own room to keep especially minimal? Deal?"


I am trying to figure out if you can tolerate someone else’s space that isnt strictly minimal. Does that bother you, or is it the idea that your own space will become cluttered with crap that you cannot stand?

I am cool with "comfortable minimalism."


Are you actually triggered when crap shows up at your house? If I visited you and brought gifts of a pile of newspapers from your home town, several used kitchen pots and pans, two pairs of pants, 3 dogs toys for Harlan, a framed poster of somethng you like, and a Indian food cookbook, would all of this stuff make you anxious? Or just annoyed?

When people give me stuff I usually just give it away.

[Chicken lady]

You know, if that is your actual dating profile (no space for religion?) it’s pretty good. I think you should use the six things though - like the joke about running watering the kitchen, they would say a lot about your mindset.

[Ultralight]

You know, if that is your actual dating profile (no space for religion?) it’s pretty good. I think you should use the six things though - like the joke about running watering the kitchen, they would say a lot about your mindset.

Thanks.

Why do you think I should use the six things? I don't understand.

[Ultralight]

I have also been very deliberately and purposefully thinking about simply not dating anymore.

williamsmith will not like this, but I made two lists:

Pros of dating/cons of dating and pros of a relationship/cons of a relationship.

The cons were heavy for me on both lists.

[Chicken lady]

Well, I started to give guesses about what you might include, but then I didn’t want to bias your answers with my POV.

in the joke, a woman is showing off her kitchen to her grandmother, and the grandmother asks if the girl could have just one modern convenience, which would she choose? She says “the microwave” and her grandmother says “huh. I’d pick running water.”

[SteveinMN]

I have also been very deliberately and purposefully thinking about simply not dating anymore.
Then don't.

Seriously, I thought dating was fun (most of the time) but it also is an emotional commitment to keeping one's eyes open for potential partners, responding to requests to meet, sometimes being rejected, actually going on dates (nice clothes, know where to go, putting your best foot forward at least for that time period), etc.

But if it's not for you right now, it's not for you. It's not a decision you have to chisel into stone. For what it's worth, one of the things that makes DW's and my relationship work is that each of us had our own fulfilling lives before we met. We could have gone for years longer without a LTR/partner (and both of us preferred that to being with just anyone for the sake of being part of a couple). We didn't feel "incomplete" or odd for being single and our social circles were not dependent on being part of a couple. We simply found life was more fun with each other than without so we became partners. Sometimes it happens when you're not looking that thoroughly.

[Ultralight]

Then don't.

Seriously, I thought dating was fun (most of the time) but it also is an emotional commitment to keeping one's eyes open for potential partners, responding to requests to meet, sometimes being rejected, actually going on dates (nice clothes, know where to go, putting your best foot forward at least for that time period), etc.

But if it's not for you right now, it's not for you. It's not a decision you have to chisel into stone. For what it's worth, one of the things that makes DW's and my relationship work is that each of us had our own fulfilling lives before we met. We could have gone for years longer without a LTR/partner (and both of us preferred that to being with just anyone for the sake of being part of a couple). We didn't feel "incomplete" or odd for being single and our social circles were not dependent on being part of a couple. We simply found life was more fun with each other than without so we became partners. Sometimes it happens when you're not looking that thoroughly.

Good points.

A colleague of mine said she wants to fix me up with someone. I told her I am definitely not ready to date yet.

[bae]

1) Don’t form intimate relationships with people with long-standing mental illnesses.

2) Don’t form intimate relationships with people whose parents have long-standing-mental illnesses.

3) Don’t form intimate relationships with people who don’t like themselves.

4) Don’t form intimate relationships with people you need to protect and care for just so they can survive daily life.

5) Don’t form intimate relationships with people who even have a whiff of an abusive personality.

[Chicken lady]

Wow.

so there you go UL, bae took you right out of the dating pool.

[Ultralight]

1) Don’t form intimate relationships with people with long-standing mental illnesses.

2) Don’t form intimate relationships with people whose parents have long-standing-mental illnesses.

3) Don’t form intimate relationships with people who don’t like themselves.

4) Don’t form intimate relationships with people you need to protect and care for just so they can survive daily life.

5) Don’t form intimate relationships with people who even have a whiff of an abusive personality.

I appreciate you contributing this. I know you are going through a tough time. This is sound advice.

[JaneV2.0]

1) Don’t form intimate relationships with people with long-standing mental illnesses.

2) Don’t form intimate relationships with people whose parents have long-standing-mental illnesses.

3) Don’t form intimate relationships with people who don’t like themselves.

4) Don’t form intimate relationships with people you need to protect and care for just so they can survive daily life.

5) Don’t form intimate relationships with people who even have a whiff of an abusive personality.

I've been in arguments before about this very issue. I will absolutely not put myself there; I would be wary of friendships of this sort, let alone partnerships. I have a tendency toward depression--it's mostly mild and situational--but I suck up others' bad vibes like a ShamWow. I try to avoid, say, people who ruminate publicly about suicide, how and when (this about two days after my SO, who very much wanted to live--lost his struggle with illness). People like this are so consumed with themselves and their problems, they have no energy for anyone else. I get angry even thinking about it. Very good advice, bae, and I"m so sorry...

[Chicken lady]

I have missed what is going on with bae, and want to be clear that I didn’t intend to be dismissive or unkind toward him, but UL has talked a lot about his mom, such that that list does put him on the people to not date list. As this is UL’s thread, and he has expressed ambivalence about dating, that is as far as I thought about it.