View Full Version : Dangerous Dogs
Yesterday evening I was walking Elvis, my 110 pound bloodhound. I have invested several years training him for tracking lost persons. I have invested about $4000 in professional instruction for him as well. He's 4 years old now, and coming into his prime.
We were walking a loop road in my neighborhood, a private community - all the streets belong to the homeowners.
At about the halfway on our walk, there was one of our very-part-time neighbors walking a dog unfamiliar to me on the other side of the road. She was trying to get her dog to sit and ignore us as we walked past, while talking on her cell phone with the other hand. Her dog was a powerful pitbull mix of some sort. We proceeded on our way without any pause. When we were about 15 yards down the road, I heard a commotion, turned, and saw the lady being dumped on her side and dragged about 2-3 yards, after which the dog broke loose completely and latched onto my bloodhound around the neck firmly, and began trying to kill him by shaking his neck and biting. One of his beautiful soft ears was in the attacker's mouth as well.
The lady was still on her phone while on the ground. Indeed, she clutched her phone in her hand, with an active call on speakerphone the entire rest of the incident.
In my county, it is legal to kill aggressive dogs that are chasing or molesting livestock.
I was armed with a suitable handgun, a suitable fixed blade knife, and a folding knife.
I was wearing shorts and a t-shirt and tennis shoes.
My 21 year old daughter was with me on the walk. There were several houses nearby within 150 yards. The other dog's owner was trying to haul her dog off with no result, and was yelling at it with no result.
What would you have done?
Teacher Terry
9-4-18, 12:06pm
When I was married to my ex we had a shepherd jump his 6 ft fence and come straight for me. My ex got in front of me and the dog knocked him to the ground and went for his throat. Being a Vietnam vet he knew how to fight. We went home and called the police. That night we went to the house and said do the right thing and put the dog down or we will get a lawyer and sue. My concern was that the dog would kill one of the neighbors kids. The neighborhood was full of small children. They put the dog to sleep. Talking on the cell while walking a big dog is stupid. What did you do? I love dogs but some are just dangerous.
If I'd been armed like you, I would have defended my helpless pet. I have zero tolerance nor pity for vicious attack dogs and stupid owners.
Really sorry that this happened to you as it is so stressful for both you and your dog.
A dog like that is a lethal weapon. Did you kill it? I had a German Shepherd dog do that coming after my dog because the owner did not control it. Fortunately, it stopped after biting my dog's haunches.
I gave her the vet bill which she paid and her son read her the riot act, she told me. I have not seen it loose since.
The phrase that I use now when I hear that dogs are 'friendly' or 'just learning' or whatever, is that a dog is not a robot . One never knows what it will do. One is either a responsible or an irresponsible owner.
I didn't kill the dog. I would likely have, but there was no responsible way to use the firearm in the dynamics of the scrum without endangering my dog, or my feet, or the dog's owner, or any of the several homes downrange, as I couldn't achieve a good angle. Similarly, I didn't use the larger blade, which would have still presented a danger to my dog. I used the still-folded folding blade as an impact tool in my hand to break the other dog's attention and haul it off.
My daughter took my dog home to clean it up while I chatted with the attacker's owner. Her dog was still snarling and growling and lunging at me while we were talking, even though I was standing a good 10 yards away. I backed away from the scene for about 150 yards once we were done talking, I was convinced the dog was going to break loose again and come for me.
I then called the Sheriff, who will deal with the situation without me filling out a lot of paperwork and pissing off a neighbor more. Who wants to kill a poor dog in front of its horrified owner, and in front of your own kid? Not me.
Luckily my dog wears a heavy plastic electric training/tracking collar, and a heavy metal pinch collar, and those collars saved him from a significant amount of damage. Luckily also that my dog, the sweetest dog I've ever had but also quite possibly the dumbest, counts among the half-dozen commands he has master of the "leave it" command, and just stood there like a champ once I asked him to, so I could remove the other dog.
That dog is going to get itself killed or put down, if it doesn't get a different owner.
iris lilies
9-4-18, 12:37pm
I wouldnt have injured the attacking dog because
I would have had no weapons or skills. But I woild have no problem with anyone who did that to get their pet out of his jaws.
in a dog fight it is very difficult to shoot the right dog, anyway.
knifing him might be more doable, dont know.
in a dog fight it is very difficult to shoot the right dog, anyway, knifing him might be more doable, dont know.
I'm overly-proficient with firearms, and there didn't seem to be a good way to accomplish using the firearm.
The big knife would have worked if I'd started at the rear of the other dog with its tendons, but it would have been a messy cold-blooded surgical procedure, and have upset all the bystanders. And still presented a bit of danger of an unwanted outcome.
I had no intention of grappling with the other dog though, it was solid muscle and teeth, and seemed quite fast.
I was especially disturbed by the silent attack from behind it pulled off. This was a dog intent not on dominance games, but on killing.
Luckily bloodhounds are incredibly solid as well, resilient, and have 3x the amount of skin they require on their necks.
iris lilies
9-4-18, 12:53pm
Probably this attacking dog should be euthanized, too bad. Owner is stupid. I see a lot of stupid dog owners around my neighborhood yakking on their stupid cell phones, not paying attention to their dogs.
My own dog is not well socialized and is not allowed out in public. Oddly, he is fine with some dogs coming into his house. He puts up with a series of girl dogs who we foster. He was fine with a young male dog here last year, but granted, this male dog acted like a puppy even though he was 3years old. The boys are generally more laid back about their pack mates than are the females. In my experience, the females just want to kill each other.
Brings back memories of the vicious dog that lived next door to us when I was young. Nothing worked with the stupid owners until the dog got loose bit my brother and dad sued them. Turns out it was a proven biter and had been moved away from another neighborhood. Dad told us the dog was sent to the states. Should have been euthanized.
I probably wouldn't of had time to think about it and would of ended up dead.
You showed great restraint and true gun skills by knowing it wasn't the best situation to shoot first.
We were involved in a neighbor shooting another neighbor's dog but they'd been given ample warning and rec'd 2 sheriff visits who made it very clear neighbor 1 had every right to shoot neighbor 2's dog the next time. Neighbor 2 still tried to claim "why weren't we warned" after the event of the shooting and why we were there as witnesses.
ToomuchStuff
9-4-18, 12:59pm
Lucky for the other owner that you didn't have a clear shot. Around here, that dog would probably be technically (may depend on jurisdiction) an officer, and the owner would be responsible for its medical and potentially end up with a criminal assault on an officer charge.
Our dog was mauled by a dog that was off-leash; it saw our dog and must have thought "snack!" It happened so fast I didn't have time to pick up our dog before the other one grabbed her by the belly. The dim-witted owner came over and tried to grab her dog's leash; I was trying to shield our dog, make a lot of noise, and kick the other one away without having it set off on me (at least I was wearing jeans). Then our dog slipped her collar and ran off so my more immediate issue was chasing her down in a parking lot near busy cross streets. I wish I'd had the presence to get the woman's license number. The lowlife didn't even bother to help me look for my dog once she gained control of hers -- she just took off in her truck.
In our county it is legal to defend yourself and your property against a dog attack by any means necessary. I didn't have any means except a good swift kick where it would hurt the dog big-time (maybe fatally if I got a good kick in) and I was busy anyway looking for ours. She nearly got run over in traffic except that she had the luck to run through a four-way stop so no one was going very fast. She then ran the four blocks or so to our house (didn't think she had that in her) and my wife got her inside. $800 in vet bills ensued.
I called animal control with as much information as I could -- we were walking near a playground and that dog could have gone after one of the kids playing as surely as it went after our dog. I'm not sure what I would have liked to have seen happen to the dog's owner -- except for paying our vet bills and losing her dog because she clearly didn't give a cr@p about anybody -- or anything -- else. I don't know how controllable that dog was or even what happened to it. Maybe the dim-witted owner woke up and had the dog euthanized because it could have turned out far worse than it did for anyone.
It's hard to say what one could do. So much of it is dependent on the situation. Clearly bae is better prepared than most of us to think clearly in crisis situations and has had training in weapons. And yet he found his options limited. Makes me wonder about the people who feel they've got to arm themselves for their visit to Pizza Ranch. What are they ready for? And how clearly will they evaluate their options in the heat of the moment?
I would be prepared to kill it next time. It is a threat to you, your family and your pet.
I would be prepared to kill it next time. It is a threat to you, your family and your pet.
I don't think there is a really good way to do that, once they are in a scrum.
I've hunted boar with a knife before, but it's the opposite situation - the dog(s) have latched onto the boar and are holding it relatively still, then you approach with the knife and Do Needful Things. It's difficult when the target is struggling and moving so much, and you don't have a safe line of approach or action.
I talked to some serious dog trainers this morning, apparently in The Old Days short clubs were used to distract and pry off fighting dogs from each other. There's not much else that's useful in this situation that isn't also dangerous to bystanders or yourself. I suppose I could carry around my fish bat from the boat, but that seems a bit of a bother. With any luck, next time I see this particular dog, it'll be muzzled, or simply not be here anymore.
What a terrible situation. We had minor skirmishes in our dog park with my last dog, but nothing at that level.
One of the sad things in your story is the fact that it was/is a pitbull. My DD has a pitfall mix and he's the most gentle creature in the world. However, my DD has a hard time convincing others when she wants to let her dog socialize with other dogs. She recently went on a camping at a music festival and the festival rules allowed all dogs but pit bulls and Rottweilers. So Grandma (me) got to watch Buddy for the weekend.
But to get back to the story, I agree that you would have been completely justified in using deadlier force against the dog, but I'm happy that the dog was not killed, and your dog escaped relatively unharmed.
So all's well that end's well in a way, but how do you make the owner accountable? How could she be so clueless?
One of the sad things in your story is the fact that it was/is a pitbull.
I know, right? Most of the pitbull-types I know are total sweeties. This problem was entirely a case of "bad owner" - this is a newly-adopted shelter dog that the Sheriff tells me was already involved in another incident here, and the best animal trainer on the island had already told her that the dog was a serious problem and needed lots of work before it would be suitable to be in public.
So all's well that end's well in a way, but how do you make the owner accountable? How could she be so clueless?
Well....
https://i.imgur.com/TgH4Jbf.jpg
Is your picture of the dog and owner?
I would have used my most authoritative voice to yell NO...STOP... And DROP IT! If that didnt work, and likely it would not, then like you I would thump it on the skull. Then I'd kick it in the 'nads, if he had them and the belly. I don't have a problem with lethal force in your scenario, but am glad you used alternatives successfully.
I have two dog fight stories. One, I was walking my mini Schnauzer (cat sized) dog on the opposite side of the road. Neighbors dog came out of their yard - no fence - and grabbed / bit my dog with no warning. I kicked the dog, while lifting mine up out of the "zone" and still kicking at the dog as it kept lunging. Kids saw it, but blamed me....um, what? We were minding our own business! Fortunately mom came out just after and saw me still standing with my dog in my arms bleeding - on the other side of the street! I sent her the vet bill, she paid it, and I don't know what happened to the dog but hope he went to heaven. Never saw him again.
Second, one neighbor was loading his motorcycle to go on vacation. My son was outside on his bike, watching. The other neighbor accidentally let their pit bull out, which came across and bit my son relentlessly! Neighbor one was cursing and wacking it with a hammer, neighbor two went back indoors - I found out later to secure baby, and I saw nothing but assumed the bike was dropped and causing this disturbance. My son did not scream, cry or move and he was about nine years old. When neighbor two came back out, she yelled to,me and I stood up and came over. D's was covered in blood and we had to go to the ER. He even got blood poisoning from all the bites as some were punctures and some tears. That dog was "the best dog ever" and very friendly to all, until he wasn't. It grew up around kids, new me and my son and had no aggressive history and was unprovoked. He went to doggie heaven.
Williamsmith
9-4-18, 2:51pm
Might I suggest a collapsible baton or ASP? It can be easily carried on your waist, deployed in an instant and is capable of serious bodily injury and death. You showed great restraint and I applaud you for it. You are a better man than me. I had a partner who lost a testicle to a similar dog. I was attacked twice in my career...neither dog survived to brag about it. One took a hollow point .357 magnum round between the eyes, the other a nasty affair with lots of messy blood about. But it is the owner who needs a little tuning up. Perhaps an annoying lawsuit just to set off her AFIB.
That is the dog and owner, afterwards, with the zoom lens on my camera engaged, I was back considerably further. The dog is still distracted watching my dog being led home. Moments afterwards, it fixated on me. At least the owner had put away her cell phone by this point.
Notice that dog is on a harness, and not a collar. It had all the traction in the world to drag its owner down the street. I suspect the dog nearly outweighed the owner.
The dog was seemingly immune to physical force from my hands and feet, though I hit it hard enough to drop a grown man. It was solid muscle and bone. I was unwilling to grapple with it. If I'd hit it any harder, I would have been breaking its bones, which wouldn't have stopped the fight in progress. It did not want to let go at all, and was totally fixated on shaking back and forth trying to break my poor dog's neck.
Here you can see how aggressive my dog is when the neighbor's dog walked into my house the other day and stole his dog bed for a couple of hours:
https://i.imgur.com/1gZSdxp.jpg
Yikes, I don't know what I would do. Our weiner dog was attacked once by an off leash dog and we literally had to swing her up in the air by the leash to keep it from turning deadly. We demanded that the owners of the other dog pay our vet bill since she got bitten badly and they did. Sorry, but I steer clear of all pit bulls. I keep hearing what sweethearts they are but statistically that is not the case. There is a reason many cities and landlords do not allow them.
I'm glad your dog is okay. What a scary situation. Could you have fired into the air? Would the sound have scared the other dog?
It must have been a very upsetting situation. Sounds like you handled it well. Yeah, maybe a club of some sort would have worked on the back of the other dog??
LOL......love the pic of your dog and the neighbor dog on his bed.
iris lilies
9-4-18, 5:32pm
That hound did the right thing by allowing the superior terrior terror his bed.
So funny!
Teacher Terry
9-4-18, 6:29pm
Pit bulls were the nanny dogs in the 1940’s. When working outside babies would be on s blanket and the dog would pull them back on the blanket by their clothes if they crawled off. A off leash pit bull attacked my big dog in the park. My dog had bites but luckily has a double thick coat. The guy pulled him off and ran away. All big dogs will attack if trained to do so or some will if they have been abused.
There are just some dog strains that have "bad" bred into them from bad breeders. Example: There was a line of St. Bernard dogs that basically went insanely aggressive at around 2. The breeders had to get together and remove the problem dogs genes from their breeding lines.
My insurance company will not cover us with liability for many breeds.
There are just some dog strains that have "bad" bred into them from bad breeders.
My grandfather trained, ran, and bred black and tan coonhounds, and beagles, for 50+ years. He culled every single dog that displayed human-directed aggression from his packs. My bloodhound is from a similar line - the only danger he presents to humans is perhaps drowning them in drool.
I personally don't believe any particular breeds are bad. I think there are bad owners, and I think individual dogs, or some lines, can be bad.
The Sheriff has had a chat with the owner now and explained what happens next if that poor dog even looks at anyone sideways. The owner was frantically emailing me this morning asking me what I knew about dog muzzles...
I'm glad your dog is okay. What a scary situation. Could you have fired into the air?
That typically is a bad idea on several fronts. For one, who knows where the bullet will land? For another, "warning shots" are sometimes used in court as evidence that the situation wasn't dire enough to warrant use of lethal force. For another 'nother, it'd potentially cause the owner to fear for their life and react accordingly, and it would have caused some hearing damage to all around, including my poor hound.
LOL......love the pic of your dog and the neighbor dog on his bed.
The neighbor dog is 16 years old, deaf, mostly blind. It can smell just fine though, and came over when it smelled lunch cooking, said hello, walked right in, and went to sleep on the big dog's bed. Hung out here for a couple hours until it decided it wanted dinner at home. I think it's a swell little pup.
Teacher Terry
9-4-18, 7:53pm
My dad loved beagles and that’s all we had growing up. Not a mean one in all those years.
Williamsmith
9-4-18, 8:35pm
I was headed into Home Depot with the wife yesterday and this lady comes sauntering in the entrance at the same time with a Great Dane on a leash that was about as thick as a thread. My wife pulls up short scared to death of the dog and motions for me to do the same. We let mommy and Marmaduke go first and he sticks his nose straight up the butt of the man walking in front of him. I shake my head, meantime the dog leads the lady over by the riding mowers. I thought he might try to climb up in one and for a brief moment imagined what he’d look like cutting grass with a pipe in his mouth.
Im not against somebody going into the store with fluffy in their arms but when the dog could swallow you whole....I draw the line. Is it just me or are there more people who seem to be adopting dogs as their children instead of having real children? Saves the cost of college education I guess.
Yes, there are more dog children everywhere. And so-called service dogs in all sorts of establishments.
My dad and I had several coon hounds. My husband had a few too in the 80s. We put one down because it was aggressive, one time, with a neighbor. They never got a second chance - we always valued humans more than dogs.
Teacher Terry
9-4-18, 10:41pm
Our 80lb old guy loves Home Depot and the workers often carry treats. However, he is very well behaved and would not be sniffing people. We had a 18lb old rescue dog that had been abused and was on pain medication. If kids came over we crated her in our bedroom and closed the door to be on the safe side. If a dog bites I think you have to look at the circumstances. I know of a incident where the owner disciplined the dog by hitting his back end. The dog had back pain and a horrible double ear infection and when the owner went to hit him the dog bit a piece of his lip off. 4 years later we lstill have the big guy. Had his infections treated and on 2 medications for back pain. He is very loving and sweet. I told the vet when we took him so they would muzzle him. If he ever bit again I would put him down. We don’t let him by kids because kids are unpredictable and could hit him. I think he only bit because of the pain he was in. I had told the owner previously not to use hitting as discipline.
flowerseverywhere
9-4-18, 11:30pm
We used to be long distance bike riders and we often rode in groups. One rider had a huge scar down his leg inflicted by an off leash black Lab. A Black Lab of all things. Almost everyone had a story of being attacked or bit by a dog. We weren’t bit but a half dozen times had to evade a dog attack. One time a postman stopped to help me when a dog came after me. In every instance the owner said “he won’t hurt you.”
There is a reason for leash laws.
https://www.caninejournal.com/dog-bite-statistics/
4.7 million dog bites a year in the US.
And nauseating list of deaths by dogs per year. So many deaths of infants.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States
How do you ever get over the death of an baby attacked by your pet
flowerseverywhere
9-4-18, 11:38pm
One more story. I had my gallbladder surgically removed this year. The day after my surgery I was walking gingerly down the street and a woman came towards me with an untrained dog pulling at the very long leash. I crossed the street to avoid her and she said “she is a sweetie and won’t hurt you”. I said “I had surgery yesterday and please keep your dog away so she won’t jump on me.” The lady said to her dog “ ignore that mean lady, I love you”.
When it comes to dogs, people are crazy.
Teacher Terry
9-4-18, 11:43pm
We didn’t have dogs when raising the kids because my husband would not agree to a indoor dog and I was not making a dog live outside in Wisconsin. Then our youngest was born with bad allergies and asthma by age 1. When we walk our dogs big or small it doesn’t matter they are always on leash. Off leash dogs scare me. Be responsible.
Teacher Terry
9-4-18, 11:46pm
Flowers when I look at the studies it appears that many of those instances were preventable.
One more story. I had my gallbladder surgically removed this year. The day after my surgery I was walking gingerly down the street and a woman came towards me with an untrained dog pulling at the very long leash. I crossed the street to avoid her and she said “she is a sweetie and won’t hurt you”. I said “I had surgery yesterday and please keep your dog away so she won’t jump on me.” The lady said to her dog “ ignore that mean lady, I love you”.
When it comes to dogs, people are crazy.
My BIL was like that with his dog. He was obsessive over his min pin. He would walk him with a lot of leash on his retractable, and he wouldn't rein him in when people were approaching him on the sidewalk because his attitude was "Everyone should love my dog." When some of the women in the neighborhood recoiled and moved away or crossed the street (he should have been the one to cross the street), he would call them idiots for not knowing that his dog wasn't vicious. Some people really are too self-absorbed.
Miss Cellaneous
9-5-18, 9:17am
One of my friends has an all black German Shepherd guide dog. That dog looks like a wolf. People jump away from it, clearly not knowing that guide dogs are carefully tested and any people or dog aggressive dogs are weeded out of the training programs. (Some of the "rejects" become police dogs, some become pets.) While that dog may look scary, she is a sweetheart and very, very, well-behaved.
I witnessed a pit bull mix attacking my cousin's mini schnauzer. The big dog just raced across the town common at a Memorial Day affair and grabbed the little dog, who was sleeping at the time, so not being aggressive in any way, by the stomach. It took 3 men to separate the dogs, and the schnauzer spent a week at the vet.
My cousin filed a complaint with the town. She found out that after 3 complaints against a dog, the dog's owner was required to remove the dog from the town. Not have it put down, just get it out of town permanently. She also found out that 4 other complaints had been filed previously against this dog. But it is a small town, and the father of the dog's owner is a good friend of the mayor, so no one had enforced the rules. She made a fuss, hired a lawyer, put up posters with pictures of her dog after surgery and the caption, "What if it's a child next time?" and after 5 months of fighting town hall, the owner was forced to re-home the dog.
A few years ago a dog fighting ring got busted in our area and over a hundred dogs were "rescued". The shelters were overrun with pit type dogs and crosses. They are still dominating the shelters. I don't think a proper vetting was done to the people who ended up adopting those dogs. The shelters were issuing appeals and encouraging people to adopt multiples. It is a difficult situation all around.
A lot of those dogs require the owner to be an "alpha" all the time and a specific pecking order enforced 24/7 and are not suitable for situations with small children involved. The lady certainly was not "on" at the time, the leash was stupid for this dog/owner combo.
Gardenarian
9-6-18, 7:21pm
My dog was also recently attacked by a pit bull. She is okay, but needed stitches and antibiotics.
I really dislike pit bulls. Any dog can do something unpredictable - it's usually only with pit bulls that the consequences are deadly. It's not their personality, it's simply the size and power of their jaws. They're like a 3 year old with a shotgun.
IshbelRobertson
9-7-18, 9:50am
Pit bulls and similar breeds were banned in the UK after so many attacks and deaths here, especially children.
When my daughter was about 8 we joined my friend and her same aged daughter, together with her 3 under 5 boys, to walk their Jack Russell puppy in Holyrood Park, a local public open space. It is always busy with locals plus tourists anxious to climb Arthur’s Seat, a local landmark. The wee pup was about 6 or 7 months and on a lead, held by the daughter. Two HUGE rotweillers, off leads, raced towards them, snapping and snarling. The wee girl panicked and dropped the lead running back to us. One of the dogs ran up to her, jumped on her back, pushing her to the ground anf then biting her arm. The other dog started killing the JR, and the ensuing noises caused the dkog to stop mauling. the girl and join his pack brother in finishing off the puppy. The whole thing was traumatising in the extreme. Five kids screaming, my friend trying to see the damage done to her daughter, i was trying to get the other boys closer and to quieten them.
We were lucky. A police car was driving through the park and one of the constables jumped out and started swinging at the dogs with a retractable truncheon thingy. His colleague joined in after calling in the incident. They managed to hold the 2 dogs. The owner came running up and told them his dogs wouldn’t hurt a fly
The owner never even wrote to apologise. He was taken to Court under the Dangerous Dogs Act, after his dogs were destroyed.
I’ll never forget that day, and none of those kids have forgotten it, either.
OMG, IshbelRobertson, that was a terrible ordeal.
IshbelRobertson
9-7-18, 1:44pm
It certainly was. It’s etched in my memory and I am still frightened by the sight of any large dog off a lead.
My family have always had small dogs, Cairn or Aberdeen terriers.
ETA Aberdeens are nowadays called Scotties.
Teacher Terry
9-7-18, 2:45pm
Wow how awful. Glad the girl survived.
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