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flowerseverywhere
10-1-18, 12:22pm
Te dating and living world is very different than it was when I was a young woman. Do you have any strategies that you use, conscious or unconscious to avoid sexual assault?

catherine
10-1-18, 12:28pm
My long-term strategy seems to work: aging. Lately no one is asking me if I want a walnetto.

ApatheticNoMore
10-1-18, 12:42pm
honestly I suspect I've never attracted that sort of interest much (although I'm not unattractive), or I'm just lucky, or don't hang out much at drunken frat parties (that's for sure, drinking while I was in school? nope not really) or really that many drunken parties at all.

Now there are measures taken to avoid assault period (sexual or otherwise, it's all bad). Like on a dark street, if I felt followed I try to get to safety etc..

iris lilies
10-1-18, 12:43pm
Yes, aging out is good and we all know that age or appearence is not safeguard from rape, but I can tell you that it IS a safeguard from casual agressions of dailey life.

This will soon turn into accusations of blaming the victim, so while I could contribute some thoughts, I wont.

razz
10-1-18, 1:43pm
Sexual assault happens in so many settings that I am not sure that there is a one-size fits all. Perhaps the most I will contribute is - know thyself, your rights, your own sense of space and appropriate behaviour.

I am not blaming the victim with remembering an experience I had. I was attending a counselling training all-day session with workers from all social service settings. Beside me sat a big, burly man leaning forward with his elbows on the table. I was sitting back in my chair listening. We were sharing experiences. My burly neighbour was talking about a painful event in his life and, being a toucher, I leaned forward and laid a finger on his wrist in support, I thought. He immediately swung around with clenched fist coming straight for my face. He stopped in time; the session trainer reminded us calmly to be aware that participants came from all walks of life. When we had a coffee break, I walked up to this participant and apologized and humbly asked him to help me understand what had happened.

He advised me that he was an ex-con who was now a counsellor for the incarcerated and recently released. He told me that in the institution one has only a 2 foot square of space around oneself; one has just one chance ever to defend oneself so one uses it. Anyone who comes within or too close to that space is stopped immediately whatever way possible. I had caught him by surprise with my light touch of the tip of my finger.

I found this experience very helpful in my work as a dental hygienist ever afterwards and also in how I dealt with safety issues. I strive to ensure that I have space around me, have no guilt in screaming stop or 'back off'. No one has the right to intrude in another's space whether women, children or men. We need to hear the self-defence education just as that dear man gave me. Our bodies belong to us and we need to defend them fiercely and teach our children that as well.

iris lilies
10-1-18, 1:55pm
Hey razz, this reminds me== I have had the same dental hygienist for a long long time. She recently went out on maternity leave and I had a substitute. The substitute was very gentle! The difference in their touch was noticeable .

I won’t do anything about this but I will say that I surely preferred the temp worker!

Ultralight
10-1-18, 4:53pm
dental hygienist for a long long time

I had a dental hygienist who would repeatedly ask me on dates. She slipped me her phone number (more than once) and emphatically told me to call her. She would one-sidedly flirt with me all during my appointments. She said "You could be my Christian Grey!" and things like that.

What really took the cake though was this:

At an appointment she leaned me all the way back in the chair and did the cleaning stuff. Then she took her clipboard, set it down on my lap (right on my junk) and started checking things off the list and making notes. I could feel her hand's pressure through the clipboard.

I continually told her I was not interested, that we were not a good match, and so forth.

iris lilies
10-1-18, 6:48pm
Ul, cool that you can tie these two topics together! Stupid woman who harrassed you, a pox on her. Did you comsider changing hyge ists or demtists if that wasnt possible?

Please! I am not saying that you SHOULD have changed,
I am just wondering about the thoughts that crossed your mind to avoid her.

Ultralight
10-1-18, 6:53pm
Ul, cool that you can tie these two topics together! Stupid woman who harrassed you, a pox on her. Did you comsider changing hyge ists or demtists if that wasnt possible?

Please! I am not saying that you SHOULD have changed,
I am just wondering about the thoughts that crossed your mind to avoid her.

I asked the dentist to assign me different hygienists. She did not honor the request. So the hygienist kept at it. haha

Wacky times, these.

I don't go to that dentist anymore. I got out of there once I realized things were not going to change any my treatments (long term thing) were over.

ApatheticNoMore
10-1-18, 7:05pm
as a dental hygienist do you ever worry about getting your hand bit?

well, I've always wondered about this (I've never bitten the hygienists hand :~) )

Chicken lady
10-1-18, 7:13pm
UL, everyone has their own boundaries, but that behavior is definitely sexual harassment and a case could be made for assault based on the clip board incident. At minimum I would speak to her.

i unconsciously avoid assault by avoiding time in unsafe situations and not associating with the sort of people who assault people. I had a referral from my primary care physician one time and I went back to him and told him that I needed another referral because while the doctor had not done anything specifically objectionable, there had been something about his manner that made me feel uncomfortable and that was not acceptable to me. The second referral was excellent.

clipboard lady would have been way past my red lines.

Yppej
10-1-18, 7:21pm
I survived a rape attempt. Verbal noes did not work. What stopped it was that I started to cry. I knew my assailant and when we went to court he admitted what he did and said he did not think he did anything wrong. That did not go over well with the judge, who did issue the restraining order I had requested.

That happened almost three decades ago and I will never forget it. I was in my twenties, and cannot imagine how much harder it must have been for Dr. Ford at age 15.

To think you can avoid this is magical thinking. There is no guarantee unless you are a hermit.

bae
10-1-18, 7:47pm
I have been sexually assaulted by men and women in the past.

I don't talk about it much.

I these days can repel most any single-person attempt at groping and whatnot, and I simply don't let people within arm's reach most of the time. I don't drink in public. I try to be very situationally aware.

When I engage in activities of the sorts that might invite certain types of people to transgress my boundaries, I usually do so in a public space amidst groups of people who understand active consent culture, and typically where there are people devoted to the task of making sure things are OK - and even still, last year my consent boundaries were crossed horribly.

Tradd
10-1-18, 8:29pm
I'm average looking, but being well-endowed, I've sometimes gotten comments. Cultivating a "b*tch resting face" and a very vicious sarcasm has stopped virtually everyone who has tried something with me.

There was that one incident at work last year (see separate thread someone else bumped) with a warehouse temp.

As for when I'm out and about, I'm careful where I am after dark. Not only do I refuse to drink in public, I rarely drink at all. I carry a concealed pistol. I have good situational awareness, and I'm not afraid of making eye contact. There have been one or two times when being loud and vulgar in public ("Get away from me you stupid motherf'er!") has sent someone scurrying away.

I am NOT nice when telling someone off or to get away from me.

razz
10-1-18, 9:05pm
I did get bitten once by a little kid who chomped down on a fluoride tray before I ensured that it was properly inserted.
In Canada, a registered professional cannot date a patient so a complaint by a dental patient to the regulatory college would have initiated discipline proceedings against the dental hygienist Not sure how it works in the US.

Teacher Terry
10-1-18, 9:08pm
No issues anymore for me as I am old. It was a problem when young. When I was 16 I told the district manager to stop touching my ass or I was telling my dad. That was the end of it. I have had incidents when men touched me and I started yelling loud. Yeah fun times - not!

Teacher Terry
10-1-18, 9:09pm
We couldn’t date a client until they had ceased to be a client for 2 years. This was in human services.

flowerseverywhere
10-1-18, 10:08pm
I asked this because I have had many discussions lately about sexual assault. If you bring it up almost everyone remembers specific incidents. A woman I know who managed to escape a rapist (she was jogging in a park in daylight) always carries a gun and frequently goes to shooting practice. Checking the backseat of your car before you get in, not getting in an elevator if you have any inkling it is weird, not drinking at bar, or if you do drinking a beer you keep in your hand so it does not get drugged. Meeting a date at a public place. The last thing you do before going to bed is checking all the doors. so many instinctual things men and women do. Amazing how often people are sexually and physically assaulted, despite how careful they try to be. As I talked about it it was clear many people keep quiet about it.

Gardenarian
10-1-18, 11:06pm
I was sexually assaulted by a doctor.
I was only 20 or so when it happened. I was very sick and feverish and didn't realize immediately what was going on and thought I must have been mistaken, until I was sure I wasn't. (Since then I avoid being in a room alone with a male doctor or nurse - difficult at times.)

I also had an incident at the dentist similar to UL's - the dentist kept 'accidentally' touching my breasts. I now wear thick bras and heavy shirts to the dentist (a different dentist, of course.) Hard to raise hell in the middle of a root canal!

I had a stalker in college - I didn't realize it until he followed me home and tried to grab me. I thought we just had similar schedules. He hung outside my building and I called the cops, they came and talked to him and I never heard anything else, or saw him again. I changed my subway stop and moved as soon as I could.

Lots of little stuff - guys who won't leave you alone on the beach, guys who get angry that you won't get in their car, that kind of thing.

As a young adult I had a growth problem and was very small (didn't reach my full height till age 25.) I also looked about 15, and I was living in the city on my own. Apparently I looked like prey to the predators out there. I did take self defense and karate in high school.

I don't feel like I was really traumatized by this stuff. I concluded that most men were depraved, rude, insensitive, and a bit thick. Live and learn.

Today - I do park in well-lighted places, I carry a heavy flashlight, I check the backseat of my car before getting in, I have my phone with me, I let DH know where I am and when to expect me. And I have a good-sized dog.

When I was younger and out partying a lot we all had lots of strategies for dealing with aggressive guys - they mainly involving not getting wasted and not ever being alone with men we were at all unsure of. I never wore 'sexy' clothing (tho i may have wanted to.) Oh, and I'd put my long hair up in a braid or bun, especially when walking on busy streets. Guys seem to think long, loose hair means you're asking for catcalls and smartass remarks. I wonder if that's still true?

dado potato
10-2-18, 10:48am
My long-term strategy seems to work: aging. Lately no one is asking me if I want a walnetto.


It is a compelling topic, and I take everybody's story with serious attention. Still, there is a humorous aspect to the Rowan and Martin Laugh In comedy sketches performed by Arne Johnson and Ruth Buzzey.

There is a YouTube video of Johnson offering a Walnetto to Buzzey "Tyrone Needs a Powerhouse". (I was not able to make a link that works.) Reviewing several of these sketches, I note that usually Buzzey strikes Johnson repeatedly with a handbag, knocking him to the ground... and the laugh track roars.


Catherine, I suspect I too have aged out of the time when I would be a prime target for groping. But I hear that there is no lack of sexuality in nursing homes and assisted living.

When I say I am a sexagenarian, I have a twinkle in my eye.

gimmethesimplelife
10-2-18, 11:02am
To me this is such a hellish, yes I said hellish topic.

On the one hand, there is absolutely no excuse for rape whatsoever and I'm not personally sure that the laws on the books concerning rape are strong enough. I also understand that not all women by any measure are lying when they claim rape - I get that. And I'm not advocating given up the progress we've made in women's rights, either.

My problem with this topic is that there have been instances where the claim of rape was found to be lies......more than just a few times. What do we do to protect women from the horrible crime of rape AND MEN ASLO from the usually completely unpunished horrible crime of false allegations? Rob

ApatheticNoMore
10-2-18, 11:14am
I don't feel like I was really traumatized by this stuff. I concluded that most men were depraved, rude, insensitive, and a bit thick. Live and learn.

now that I relate to :)

ToomuchStuff
10-2-18, 12:32pm
I haven't spoken with some friends in years, only in passing, as the relationship strained when after their dad died, their mom started hitting on me. I saw one about 20 years ago and he joked to his six year old daughter at the time, there is your grandfather. Nothing ever happend, as her husband felt like a second father, but as she is a "family friend" at events, I have received those too long hugs.
About two years after a friend killed himself after another mutual friend raped him, I worked with a gay guy who thought it was funny that I wasn't particularly comfortable around him and wouldn't joke or respond to advances. When he tried to kiss me, I put a knife to his throat. A former FBI friend, kept me from having to go through a whole potential ADW mess. I don't respond well to contact (am NOT even comfortable with the "hugs" shit here) and was raised/told how much I am like the two rapists in the family tree. If abortion had been safe/legal back then, I wouldn't exist. So growing up comparing myself to perps, while knowing victims, certainly has a toll on relationships. The way I have judged potential ones for years has been are they worth my life, would I allow them to stab me for a kiss, and that is pretty rare (twice).

razz
10-2-18, 1:11pm
I don't feel like I was really traumatized by this stuff. I concluded that most men were depraved, rude, insensitive, and a bit thick. Live and learn.

I can honestly say that most men that I have encountered have been gentlemen in every sense and I feel comfortable with them. I have gone through bad experiences and had to find my way out of them mentally and emotionally, but, by and large, most people have been wonderful beings. When I feel uncomfortable, I back off from the encounter and avoid that individual thereafter. I do have strong boundaries.

bae
10-2-18, 2:20pm
My problem with this topic is that there have been instances where the claim of rape was found to be lies......more than just a few times.

What is the rate of false reporting?

Williamsmith
10-2-18, 2:58pm
What is the rate of false reporting?

I have to say that over my career the “rate of false reporting” depends on ones definition and ones approach. First, sexual assault is an offense which has the most variables of any criminal offense. It carries with it the greatest risk to the victim both physically and emotionally and investigators typically would rather take any other case.

Second, there are incentives to write the victim off as falsely accusing the accused for many reasons including but not limited to lack of corroborating evidence, a less than flattering victim history, an unsympathetic victim, an accused of high standing or influence in the community, an investigation that requires greater than normal effort, holes in the victim’s memory which causes inconsistencies, delicate matters concerning evidence collection, male / female interactions and trust issues.

There were many many cases I suspected where the victim was elaborating their scenario in order to make the offense seem more heinous so that the suspect she was so frightened of would be jailed pending preliminary hearing, among other reasons. It’s a complicated problem that defies statistical analysis. Yet, I was known to arrest persons who boldly reported false claims of sexual assault and I was know on to get certain people medical and psychological help who were repeat offenders.

If adult sexual assault was difficult....child sexual assault was infinitely worse. We had a full time investigator assigne to andle those cases. I was ask and declined several times. It’s a real black hole to crawl down and easy to lose sight of the light.

flowerseverywhere
10-2-18, 8:05pm
What is the rate of false reporting?
A few percent. I’ve seen stats from 2 - 8%. Rape is underreported for various reasons which lowers the number significantly.

Lainey
10-2-18, 9:03pm
I am fortunate that I've never experienced anything beyond a groping or two on the subway, and the usual rude comments when I was younger just trying to walk down the street, and being flashed by men in a few places including a public library. Ugh.

I, too, have taken all of the standard precautions ever since I was a teenager, and even though those have probably kept me safe, it infuriates me. I don't think men realize what restrictions women have to put on their everyday lives. Be careful where you walk, park under a streetlamp, always go to that bar or party with a buddy, don't hike alone, don't camp alone, don't go to a public park alone, don't even think of walking somewhere after dark, keep all doors and windows locked and shades drawn when you're in your house, walk with your keys splayed in your fingers, carry mace, etc. etc.
And the comments after I had an empty nest: "what, you don't have a man in the house? you'd better get yourself a big dog or a gun." For my own protection. In my own house!

It reminds me of a book I read years ago, "Places in the World A Woman Could Walk." That title has always stuck with me because I imagined it as an ideal world - where any woman could walk anywhere she pleased and would not fear assault of any kind.

Yppej
10-3-18, 5:00am
Exactly Lainey. It reminds me of the debate about terrorism. How much of our freedoms and civil liberties do we have to give up to feel safe? And still you are not guaranteed to be free from attack. The incidents just move from airplanes to other places.

nswef
10-3-18, 9:48am
Lainey, You stated it well. My feeling is I should be able to walk any where stark naked if I want, whenever I want and be safe. I'm not able to walk many places, especially in the dark due to fear instilled since childhood that I am responsible for anyone's bad behavior toward me. We taught as young girls that boys have no control, so it is our job to make sure they stay in control. How about teaching boys that THEY ARE IN CONTROL AND RESPONSIBLE FOR of their behavior. Perhaps teach them to keep their bodies to themselves!

Miss Cellaneous
10-3-18, 9:49am
I am reminded of a story one of my brothers told me.

He was in a Muslim-majority country, at a university, taking a summer-long intensive course in that country's language. His classmates were a mix of men and women from around the world. Many of the women commented frequently that they could not go into the city by themselves, but had to go in a group, and even then the harassment from men on the street was difficult to deal with. They felt that part of this was because they were women unaccompanied by a man and part because they clearly were not natives of the country.

My brother thought they were either exaggerating or overreacting.

Until one woman asked him to accompany her downtown for an errand. He was shocked at the catcalls, the attempts to pinch her rear end, the slurs that were yelled at her--he understood enough of the language to translate most of what was said. And this was when she was accompanied by a man--something that should have reduced this behavior to next to nothing.

My brother is an intelligent, college-educated guy with two Masters degrees. He wasn't married at the time, but he has two sisters and a mother. As far as I know, he treats women the way he should. Why did he think those women were exaggerating their treatment at the hands of the local men? Why did he not believe them?

When I questioned him as to why he didn't believe the women until he had witnessed the behavior, he really didn't have any explanation, other than he just thought they were misinterpreting things or making something big out of something very little. He had no explanation as to why he would think that way, just that he did.

The mindset that women are lying/exaggerating about sexual assault is deeply embedded in our cultural psyche. The result of this is that women to some degree are always on alert, always wary, always on the lookout for men who might do them harm. And we blame the victim--Why did she wear that dress? Why did she leave the window open? Why did she take the bus and not drive? Instead of asking: Why did the men think they could assault women with impunity?

We see the same thinking in a lot of high school dress codes. The girls are told to dress in a manner that "won't distract the boys." The boys tend to have far fewer restrictions on their clothing. And girls are removed from class to deal with dress code violations. Recently, I read of a girl who was taken out of class during a quiz because the knee of her jeans was ripped. She missed the remainder of the quiz and was not allowed to make it up. Granted, her clothing should have met the dress code requirements--but a phone call home or a short detention would have been more suitable consequences, rather than directly affecting her grade in the class.

Some high school dress codes are so restrictive that girls can only wear a crew-neck t shirt or a button-down shirt that is buttoned all the way up. Otherwise their collarbones will show. And collarbones are distracting to the boys. Who knew? I consider myself a prude and a pretty modest dresser, and nearly all my tops expose more than what these girls are allowed.

Why aren't we teaching the boys how not to be distracted instead? Rather than policing the width of the girls' shoulder straps, that time and effort should be put into teaching young men how to deal with being near women.

We need to stop blaming the victim and start blaming those who violate others.

Teacher Terry
10-3-18, 10:17am
I taught my 3 boys to respect girls, not to hit a girl even if they hit you,etc.

razz
10-3-18, 10:19am
Mis Cellaneous, my DH did not believe that men or boys acted that way because he wouldn't do any harm to women. It was incomprehensible to him that people should conduct themselves this way. It had to be a lie. Years ago, we watched a movie on TV where a young girl was being gang-raped at the outset. I got really upset. He tried to reassure me that it was just a story as these sorts of things didn't really happen. I blew up at his naivety and disbelief and walked away.

The disbelief of women who have not experienced severe trauma and the disbelief of men who cannot conceive of doing so along with their disbelief of the long-term impact of sexual assault is a serious barrier to correcting the situation. Until you walk in another's shoes, it is beyond comprehension.

That is the tragedy!

JaneV2.0
10-3-18, 10:43am
Mis Cellaneous, my DH did not believe that men or boys acted that way because he wouldn't do any harm to women. It was incomprehensible to him that people should conduct themselves this way. It had to be a lie. Years ago, we watched a movie on TV where a young girl was being gang-raped at the outset. I got really upset. He tried to reassure me that it was just a story as these sorts of things didn't really happen. I blew up at his naivety and disbelief and walked away.

The disbelief of women who have not experienced severe trauma and the disbelief of men who cannot conceive of doing so along with their disbelief of the long-term impact of sexual assault is a serious barrier to correcting the situation. Until you walk in another's shoes, it is beyond comprehension.

That is the tragedy!

So these guys don't believe crime exists because they wouldn't commit one? Or is it just crimes committed against women they feel that way about? Misogyny runs deep.

razz
10-3-18, 11:17am
I think that they may have experienced dishonesty and discourtesy so believe that it happens but sexual assault is treated very differently by both men and women disbelievers.

I wonder if they ever realize and understand that because of their disbelief their children and family members and friends will never be able to ask for help if assaulted. It is painful to ask for help because the individual feels that s/he must have done something wrong to make this assault happen and to expose that degree of pain is very difficult.
Sexual assault in churches and other organizations or other situations occurred and continues to occur because it is enabled by the disbelievers.

In their self-interest, disbelievers will not have to do anything or change their thinking if they believe and continue to believe that nothing really happened or if something did happen, it is nothing serious needing attention.

Disbelievers are the enablers of abuse, IMHO.

nswef
10-3-18, 1:11pm
Yes, Razz.

Yppej
10-3-18, 5:44pm
I'm glad more people are speaking up. We have to break down the disbelief and myths, and those that feel comfortable doing so should always feel free to talk about their experiences.

This week I heard a woman telling her story to a coworker. She said she had never told anyone but her husband before, but she had to speak up since we are faced with an abuser in the highest court in the land.

Another woman today in Dollar Tree told her supervisor in front of customers that No, I cannot work the shift you want me to "because I walk [to work] and I have to go when someone can come with me because I have a stalker."