View Full Version : Tax Fraud
This is how they got Al Capone. Do you think it can work against a sitting president?
ETA: This also did in Agnew.
Or the leading Dem candidate for IL gov.
https://wgntv.com/2018/10/02/pritzker-to-repay-toilet-related-tax-breaks-after-report-calls-them-fraud/
Teacher Terry
10-2-18, 9:26pm
I heard it may be past the statue of limitations for criminal charges but maybe not civil charges.
And if provable that it happened as the Times says it did and he was involved it would certainly meet at least my requirement of high crime or misdemeanor. Whether the republicans in the senate would agree with my assessment of what high crimes or misdemeanors means is debatable.
ANYTHING to get rid of that man!
ANYTHING to get rid of that man!
Because the ends justify the means?
I have not seen Fahrenheit 11/9 yet, but did see some of a panel discussion about it, where the point was made that more ordinary not wealthy people need to run for office.
Ocasio-Cortez in NY and Pressley in MA are encouraging.
Because the ends justify the means?
In this case, YES! He's a sick, evil man who is doing nothing but causing problems for this country that will last well after he's out.
Miss Cellaneous
10-3-18, 9:12am
ANYTHING to get rid of that man!
Much as I disagree with many of the polices of the current occupant of the White House, I have come to the reluctant conclusion that impeachment is not a good idea. I fear that impeachment, or even the attempt, will make a martyr out of Trump to his base. The only way to get him out of office that his base will accept is to vote him out of office.
If he is impeached, my concern is that his base will tie up the courts/Congress with investigations and lawsuits and the like, furthering the divide between the various groups of citizens. So while I do not particularly want him to have another day in office, I think the country as a whole would be better off waiting and voting him out. That way, his base cannot cry foul (although they probably will cry voting fraud) and maybe, just maybe, the country can start to heal from these divisions.
I agree with you Miss C. Impeachment is not a good idea. Pence would be in and would certainly gain office in 2020. The only way to get rid of the inept president is to vote him out, vote in a Democratic congress in November to put some controls over the damage he is doing. The Democrats need to shape up.
Because the ends justify the means?
That's been the Republicans' mantra the last several years--absolutely. Lie, cheat, steal, and defame in the service of the Koch brothers and Grover Norquist. To hell with the Constitution.
In this case, YES! He's a sick, evil man who is doing nothing but causing problems for this country that will last well after he's out.
I hold no brief for Trump, but this kind of thinking carries it’s own burden of sickness and evil. As if defining Trump as irredeemably evil justies any evil on the part of his enemies. As if Trump can only be defeated by something even worse.
In the ugliness of the past few weeks, we have redefined credibility to mean whatever we find expedient to believe. We have reduced two human beings to mere political allegory. The best are watching baseball and the worst are full of passionate intensity. No investigation, hearing or legislative process will be accepted by the losing side as legitimate. In the current way of thinking, it seems that nothing less than utter defeat of the opposing tribe is acceptable.
It has corrupted, deracinated and debased both major political parties. I’m glad I voted Libertarian.
Teacher Terry
10-3-18, 10:12am
People that voted 3rd party are part of the problem. A wasted vote.
People that voted 3rd party are part of the problem. A wasted vote.
At the time (as well as presently) I regarded a vote for either major party candidate as worse than a waste.
If Clinton was the solution, I’m proud to be part of the problem.
Teacher Terry
10-3-18, 10:29am
Congratulations then!thumbsup!
I disagree with the premise that impeachment is a bad idea because it will make that sad man a martyr as opposed to voting him out. His base, at his insistence, will simply doubt the veracity of the election.
At the end of the day we are a country that has the rule of law as a key principle. The precedent that will be set by letting someone who is very likely guilty of high crimes and misdemeanors finish out his term is appalling. Almost as appalling as Nixon being pardoned and the precedent that that set. But at least in Nixon's case he was forced to resign first.
I guess if we're not going to see Republican politicians stand up for what is right the next best thing is that they crash and burn at the polls during the election next month and two years from now. Perhaps that will be enough precedent to remind them that we are still a nation that has the rule of law.
Pence would be in and would certainly gain office in 2020.
Why would 2020 be a lock for Pence? Surely even the chaotic scrum of Democrats could eventually throw up a viable opponent with a reasonable chance of defeating him.
The only thing that surprised me about the NYT story is that people are surprised. That kind of financial skulduggery is pretty routine in the world of NY real estate, I believe. Shell companies, kickbacks, tax fraud, etc. And since we're talking about Trump, well, like I say, I'm surprised that anyone is surprised.
And did anyone ever take Trump's self-representation as a business prodigy seriously? Is there anyone left, outside of a small number of true Trump zombies, who doesn't know that lying is his default mode?
Trump's base would love Pence and I don't see that the Dems have any gumption or plan to offer anyone that can defeat that group. In spite of having 3 million more votes, they lost. Strategies have not been learned. I am very discouraged.
People that voted 3rd party are part of the problem. A wasted vote.
I reject that.
iris lilies
10-3-18, 1:16pm
People that voted 3rd party are part of the problem. A wasted vote.
Oh, please. Save your distain for those who dont get their assess out of their chairs to vote at all. Why do you think you get to limit my choice to the Big Two? Yeah, you and the local Democratic operatives who shove a Democratic party ballot in my hand during our primaries. Keeps them on top, the two party system.
I think us 3rd party voters have to be careful to be in the right mind when casting our vote, and that “right mind” is to vote FOR something, not against the two established candidates.In my case I voted 3rd party not really 3rd party candidate.
Given the option of Pence as Trump's replacement I don't have a strong opinion yea or nay on impeachment. If he has committed tax fraud or any other crimes as a result of his financial dealings I'd like to see him treated the same as any other criminal in the legal system rather than a rich person with protections due to his political influence.
Pence has been laying so low it is hard to really get a handle on what a Pence Presidency would be like. I'm assuming he's standing back to keep from getting spattered with all the mud and such.
Teacher Terry
10-3-18, 2:04pm
IL: Oh, please. Save your distain for those who dont get their assess out of their chairs to vote at all. Why do you think you get to limit my choice to the Big Two? Yeah, you and the local Democratic operatives who shove a Democratic party ballot in my hand during our primaries. Keeps them on top, the two party system.
First of all IL I find it horrible that some people cheat and tried that trick on the voters. There are cheaters in every party. My husband is a poll worker and they work hard to keep everything above board. Those poll workers who cheat should be fired.
Those poll workers who cheat should be fired.
Poll workers who cheat should be put in public stocks in the village green.
Pence has been laying so low it is hard to really get a handle on what a Pence Presidency would be like. I'm assuming he's standing back to keep from getting spattered with all the mud and such.
You remind me of an old joke:
Once upon a time there were two brothers. One ran away to join the circus and the other was elected Vice President. And neither was ever heard from again.
Miss Cellaneous
10-3-18, 3:02pm
Pence has been laying so low it is hard to really get a handle on what a Pence Presidency would be like. I'm assuming he's standing back to keep from getting spattered with all the mud and such.
I just have this feeling that he will promote his religious agenda under the guise of "bringing back traditional values." Those values are traditional for a specific subset of Americans, and I for one do not wish to have those "values" codified into law. We are not supposed to have a state-sponsored religion in the US, but it is clear that many of the more fundamentalist, evangelical Christians would love to have their religious ideals be the law of the land.
And I believe that quite a few of his achievements in Indiana were overturned within weeks of his becoming Vice President.
iris lilies
10-3-18, 3:36pm
IL: Oh, please. Save your distain for those who dont get their assess out of their chairs to vote at all. Why do you think you get to limit my choice to the Big Two? Yeah, you and the local Democratic operatives who shove a Democratic party ballot in my hand during our primaries. Keeps them on top, the two party system.
First of all IL I find it horrible that some people cheat and tried that trick on the voters. There are cheaters in every party. My husband is a poll worker and they work hard to keep everything above board. Those poll workers who cheat should be fired.
More black-and-white thinking from you.
It is systemic oppression of third parties that keeps them from growing. Systemic means you, me, society, laws, culture, etc. and yes the little old and sometimes stupid poll workers at my precinct.
You say “they should be fired“ as though that will actually happen, it will never happen, try to be realistic in the world in which I live. Perhaps the poll workers here are purposely skewing ballots by placing Democratic ballot in people’s hands. More likely they are simply being ignorant, careless, and unthinking. Whatever, it is oppression of third party voters.
We hear endlessly about oppression of races and genders and etc. and how systemic it all is. You just participated in it by accusing me of wasting my vote. More oppression by shaming, implying I am stupid and/ or illogical. See how that works?
My husband is also a poll worker and is always observant of the irregularities at the polls which he then reports as his job requires him to do.
Teacher Terry
10-3-18, 5:13pm
Get a grip IL I am not shaming you. It is my opinion that a 3rd party vote is a wasted vote just like you think it is not. My husband has not observed any issues but will do weeks of early voting at different places so it will be interesting what comes up. They get rid of poll workers here who are incompetent. Unfortunately, having spent my career in human services I have spent more time in the real world than I would have liked.
I have no problem with being “part of the problem” when I’m being called out for not supporting a profoundly problematic candidate. I think the whole shaming thing only works if you’re willing to cede moral authority to the would-be shame-assigner. You can’t shame the shameless.
Besides, I agree with what Rowan Atkinson said about needing the right to offend to outweigh the right to not be offended if you want a free society.
iris lilies
10-4-18, 9:34am
I have no problem with being “part of the problem” when I’m being called out for not supporting a profoundly problematic candidate. I think the whole shaming thing only works if you’re willing to cede moral authority to the would-be shame-assigner. You can’t shame the shameless.
Besides, I agree with what Rowan Atkinson said about needing the right to offend to outweigh the right to not be offended if you want a free society.
oh, I probably just tried on the shaming cloak, because so much victimhood is going around these days it seemed handy. I certainly dont FEEL shamed or offended because as you say, who is TT to decide my moral pathway in the matter of voting? She is not a player.
It really bugs me when people, usually my Republican friends, comment on my 3rd party vote, but that is more about me losing patience with their limited view to the win of today when I would like them to expand their thinking toward building alternatives down the road to the entrenched two parties.
so “oppression” isnt really the right word, but “marginalizing” 3rd party people is a better way to describe it. And as we know from numerous lectures about victimhood, marginalization is a tool of oppression.
My family has a colorful history of voting for marginal candidates--Ross Perot, Shirley Chisholm, Jesse Jackson, John Anderson...There are probably others. I've gotten that out of my system now, as the stakes are entirely too high to "make a statement."
I’m beginning to come to the conclusion that the stakes may be too high to continue in the existing party track. If the GOP evolves from the sort of traditional constitutionalist conservative party it became in the late seventies to some sort of nationalist protectionist party, I may no longer have a home there. And the Democrats seem to be moving further away from what used to be understood as liberalism to a sort of faction-brokering, increasingly authoritarian statist party that someone like Hubert Humphrey wouldn’t recognize, I have to wonder about the future.
Teacher Terry
10-4-18, 11:21am
I am hoping this recent travesty plus the entire shit show by the Republicans will bring out voters in droves.
I am hoping this recent travesty plus the entire shit show by the Republicans will bring out voters in droves.I think it will. I've read that this weeks polls show an appreciable spike in projected Republican turn-out for the mid-terms. I think in the long term it's good for the country when Democrats do what they do in such public venues.
Where is Lincoln’s first inaugural when we need it?
Have strained passions driven out the better angels of our nature, leaving nothing but crude tribalism?
Teacher Terry
10-4-18, 11:44am
Yes the Democrats have acted responsibly in regard to the Kavanaugh crap versus the republicans showing that they don’t care about women, what the voters want, etc. They are determined to wreak havoc on this nation. They are making no attempt to disguise it. I am a happy camper.
Yes the Democrats have acted responsibly in regard to the Kavanaugh crap versus the republicans showing that they don’t care about women, what the voters want, etc. They are determined to wreak havoc on this nation. They are making no attempt to disguise it. I am a happy camper.Thanks, every little bit helps. :D
I am hoping this recent travesty plus the entire shit show by the Republicans will bring out voters in droves.
Even if you’re right, I agree with the guy who said “innocent until proven guilty is a pretty good hill to die on.”
I've been a registered Independent for over 30 years because I voted for the candidate rather than the party, and then real Republicans stepped back and let a bunch of White Nationalist, hypocritical bullies take over. I wish all conscientious conservatives would join together and take their party back from the knuckle-dragging goons who have co-opted it, personally. Until they do, I'll be voting a straight Democratic ticket, unless a good Independent candidate surfaces down-ballot.
Even if you’re right, I agree with the guy who said “innocent until proven guilty is a pretty good hill to die on.”
The American Bar Association, National Council of Churches, and a boatload of Kavanaugh's friends and classmates have come out against him. Regardless of whether he took part in the boorish/criminal behavior Ford accused him of, he's shown himself rabidly partisan, unstable, and likely incapable of judicial temperance. Surely Republicans can choose another of the Federalist-approved candidates they have waiting in the wings.
Teacher Terry
10-4-18, 12:27pm
In the past I have voted for a republican if they were the best choice. We have had some great moderate republican governors. This time we have a strong democratic candidate and a total moron for the republican choice. Both are new since the current one is termed out.
The American Bar Association, National Council of Churches, and a boatload of Kavanaugh's friends and classmates have come out against him. Regardless of whether he took part in the boorish/criminal behavior Ford accused him of, he's shown himself rabidly partisan, unstable, and likely incapable of judicial temperance. Surely Republicans can choose another of the Federalist-approved candidates they have waiting in the wings.
Regardless of the size and connections of the lynch mob and regardless of how the various parties performed on television, the principle still holds. A few lost seats seems like a small price to pay for that.
Regardless of the size and connections of the lynch mob and regardless of how the various parties performed on television, the principle still holds. A few lost seats seems like a small price to pay for that.
"Innocent until proven guilty" is a legal construct. "Unfit for the office" is quite another thing.
Note my caveat: "regardless of whether he took part in the boorish/criminal behavior Ford accused him of..."
"Innocent until proven guilty" is a legal construct. "Unfit for the office" is quite another thing.
Note my caveat: "regardless of whether he took part in the boorish/criminal behavior Ford accused him of..."
I get the job interview via show trial analogy. If you lack evidence you can always pound the table and threaten the hiring committee. If we’re now reduced to saying based on a few minutes on television that he reacted too angrily to some pretty nasty allegations, I would say that some pretty irascible individuals have served on the court with distinction in the past. I don’t think that should be a disqualifier. I would be concerned that accusations like this become common practice in the future, even at the level of proof that applies to confirmation hearings.
Teacher Terry
10-4-18, 2:31pm
When you have 650 lawyers many from Harvard and Yale saying he does not have the temperament to serve on the highest court in the land that is really significant. I don;t think that has ever happened before. It is one thing to have a conservative versus having a total lunatic. We all knew the judge would be conservative so no big deal. There have to be thousands of good people willing to serve yet Trump has picked a total nut job like himself. He picked him so K can pardon him when the time comes. That is what it comes down too.
It is one thing to have a conservative versus having a total lunatic. We all knew the judge would be conservative so no big deal. There have to be thousands of good people willing to serve yet Trump has picked a total nut job like himself.
Branding is an art, and terribly important when advancing any narrative. Well done!
It’s not that he acted angrily that’s the problem. The oroblem is that he committed perjury right amd left. Someone who doesnt value telling the truth under oath is simoly unqualified to be a judge at any level.
I get the job interview via show trial analogy. If you lack evidence you can always pound the table and threaten the hiring committee. If we’re now reduced to saying based on a few minutes on television that he reacted too angrily to some pretty nasty allegations, I would say that some pretty irascible individuals have served on the court with distinction in the past. I don’t think that should be a disqualifier. I would be concerned that accusations like this become common practice in the future, even at the level of proof that applies to confirmation hearings.
jp1 reminded me that--mercurial temperament and partisan outrage aside--he's proven himself willing to lie repeatedly (and reportedly suborn perjury from friends) under oath. He's really a fourth-rate kinda guy.
It's interesting that the Senate Democrats have explored every avenue they can prove and several they cannot in order to influence the public and by extension, their representatives. If there were any proof of perjury, I think it would be the major talking point among the politicians rather than his fit of pique under pressure, which seems now to be the allegation of last resort.
I don't see why there has to be proof of anything. It's a job interview and not a court of law where innocent until proven guilty. I've been on hiring panels before and his display of temperament would not pass my level of acceptance. There would be other candidates without the same risk.
One thing I don't get is how they say this could ruin his life. I suspect someone as deep into political circles as he would find a place to land. Maybe a lobbyist. He would have to fall a very very long way before his lifestyle would be the same as us commoners.
I guess it will all be over soon.
I don't see why there has to be proof of anything.
It's a job interview and not a court of law where innocent until proven guilty.There doesn't. But the hiring managers don't want to admit that they're using partisan expectations for a non-partisan position, therefore they need to establish other criteria, and it helps if it's measurable and provable.
It's interesting that the Senate Democrats have explored every avenue they can prove and several they cannot in order to influence the public and by extension, their representatives. If there were any proof of perjury, I think it would be the major talking point among the politicians rather than his fit of pique under pressure, which seems now to be the allegation of last resort.
Most of the “perjury” people are talking about seem to be associated with inconsistencies in his recollections of High school and college. Perhaps his inquisitors don’t see that as a very meaty area to pursue. Or maybe Senator Booker consulted his imaginary friend T-bone or Senator Blumenthal discussed the matter with his comrades from Vietnam and they decided not to make an issue of truthfulness.
I could probably make a decent judgement of character based on his definitions of boof and devil's triangle. Although out here boof seems to be used by younger people to describe a fall while mountain biking or skiing, I have distinct memories of it meaning something different in my own youth. But you're right Allan. Without hard evidence of perjury only a few voters will possibly break from party lines based on temperament or possible character issues. It pretty much boils down to one person's word against another and a person just has to decide the most credible. Having a president with questionable veracity and morals may have lowered the standards of acceptance in such matters.
Most of the “perjury” people are talking about seem to be associated with inconsistencies in his recollections of High school and college. Perhaps his inquisitors don’t see that as a very meaty area to pursue. Or maybe Senator Booker consulted his imaginary friend T-bone or Senator Blumenthal discussed the matter with his comrades from Vietnam and they decided not to make an issue of truthfulness.Good Point! I'm sure they'd rather let sleeping dogs lie.
Teacher Terry
10-4-18, 5:24pm
They didn’t interview key people. I hope some day democrats can repay the favor. The republicans will only do what’s good for their party and not the country. I don’t know how any reasonable person can stomach this.
iris lilies
10-4-18, 7:11pm
They didn’t interview key people. I hope some day democrats can repay the favor. The republicans will only do what’s good for their party and not the country. I don’t know how any reasonable person can stomach this.
who are key people not interviewed?
Eyewitnesses to Kavanaugh exposing himself to Ramirez are key people.
There’s plenty of evidence of perjury, not just from the current spectacle.
https://medium.com/@demandjustice/kavanaugh-29-lies-and-counting-69ab6dee833d
There’s plenty of evidence of perjury, not just from the current spectacle.
https://medium.com/@demandjustice/kavanaugh-29-lies-and-counting-69ab6dee833d
I think my favorite is the one where the Times asserts a statement is a lie because they couldn't rule out the possibility that everyone there simply forgot about it. Good Stuff!
I think my favorite is the one where the Times asserts a statement is a lie because they couldn't rule out the possibility that everyone there simply forgot about it. Good Stuff!
If that were the only one i’d agree that it’s a nothing burger. But it’s not, by a long shot.
Teacher Terry
10-4-18, 9:19pm
A female senator from a red state is slightly behind in the polls and not voting for K will cost her the seat and she knows it. Still she can’t vote for him. We need more senators with the conviction of their beliefs instead of doing anything to keep their seat. She was going to vote for him before he acted like a spoiled toddler.
A female senator from a red state is slightly behind in the polls and not voting for K will cost her the seat and she knows it. Still she can’t vote for him. We need more senators with the conviction of their beliefs instead of doing anything to keep their seat. She was going to vote for him before he acted like a spoiled toddler.
WONDERFUL news!
Teacher Terry
10-4-18, 10:29pm
G, I am glad you are back and don’t let anyone cause you to leave the forum again. I sometimes feel strongly about things but I believe what people tell me about their financial lives because why lie to a bunch of people you don’t know. Plus I admire the way you guys have handled your finances. Unlike you guys we don’t use CC’s for everything because we might overspend which is why we only use for big items. Using our debit cards keeps us on track especially DH but we are all so different. However, I know close friends and family are more like you. We are all different and one size doesn’t fit all.
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