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Ultralight
10-6-18, 12:29pm
This is rather interesting. I got rid of my cell phone back in 2014. About 4 years to this very day. Since I carry no gadget I am not a cyborg -- one of the very few people who is still just a person.

While I have dated quite a bit since then it is only in the past month that women have outright turned me down because I don't have a mobile phone and said as much. And it has happened twice.

Previously women have expressed concern over it and it likely factored in when rejecting me. But usually once I explained why I don't have one, they were more or less okay with it.

The main thing was explaining that I am not cheating on a secret wife or something like that.

But now I am actively being turned down for being pure human.

The sci-fi nerd in me thinks this will likely get worse and having no "communications" gadget attached to one of my limbs at all times will be a more frequent primary reason for women to reject me.

And in the future, when our gadgets are implanted in our bodies, making us certainly cyborgs proper, pure humans (if any are left) will be even more often rejected in romantic contexts.

Chicken lady
10-6-18, 12:47pm
The place I work has a new emergency alert system. As part of the system, after the initial alert warning, they will be batch texting teachers with updates. The current discussion is what to do about me. I told them that my flip phone can get texts, but only shows about nine words at a time, so I have to scroll down. I assume that the updates will be fairly short and focused, so I don’t feel like it is a problem, although texting back is a problem (each letter requires pressing a number key the correct speed and number of times and then pausing about half a second before the next letter).

they do need to test and make sure the batch text comes through as a regular text, because sometimes when people text me, I get rows of squares. Also, I will not get the text if it includes a picture.

and I will now have to remember to bring the phone with me to school and in from the car. I didn’t tell them that sometimes I misplace it for days at a time.

we have one procedure that involves texting the office and when it was explained at the staff meeting, my boss said “[cl] just send a kid with a note. They can get there and back faster.”

Oddball
10-6-18, 1:30pm
Just get a free Google Voice number and link it to an email address. Then you can text from your computer. Not so practical in an emergency (unless you're already at your computer) but perfectly useful for planning dates.

It's not for your lack of a cellphone that you are being rejected. It's for your rigidity, your refusal to heed the memo about "when in Rome." Get another phone and enjoy going on some dates. It's really that easy.

I didn't own a cellphone till I was 46. I didn't own a fully functional smartphone till I was past 50. Held out as long as I could. Finally gave in and guess what. It's not so bad. I don't carry it much, but I use it at home every day and am glad to have it.

I'm also glad to be dating a smart, beautiful, creative, and very authentic millennial who's quite different from me in many ways besides age. It's all good, and my foolish, ignorant, and egotistical rigidity is melting away slowly with each text I send.

Ultralight
10-6-18, 1:53pm
Just get a free Google Voice number and link it to an email address. Then you can text from your computer. Not so practical in an emergency (unless you're already at your computer) but perfectly useful for planning dates.

It's not for your lack of a cellphone that you are being rejected. It's for your rigidity, your refusal to heed the memo about "when in Rome." Get another phone and enjoy going on some dates. It's really that easy.

I didn't own a cellphone till I was 46. I didn't own a fully functional smartphone till I was past 50. Held out as long as I could. Finally gave in and guess what. It's not so bad. I don't carry it much, but I use it at home every day and am glad to have it.

I'm also glad to be dating a smart, beautiful, creative, and very authentic millennial who's quite different from me in many ways besides age. It's all good, and my foolish, ignorant, and egotistical rigidity is melting away slowly with each text I send.


Oddball, you're not so odd after all!

1. If I got a google voice thing, that does not mean I have a cell phone. This does not mean I am in immediate reach of someone at any time. Or are you suggesting that I lead them to believe I have a cell phone when I really don't? I would not do this. Unethical.

2. "When in Rome" is an appeal to the crowd. There are lots of things the crowd does that I want no part in. What the heck kind of an "oddball" suggests going along with the crowd?! Maybe change your name to Normball! Or maybe Cyball?

3. I had a cell phone from about 2008 to 2014. I had a couple iPhones. For me, I enjoy my life more without a cell phone.

Oddball
10-6-18, 3:37pm
You would not have to lie about not having a cellphone. Just share your number and say you'll text when you get a chance.

Google Voice gives you a cell number to call or text with, unlike a land line. It's a happy medium that would allow you not to need a gizmo in your pocket while still having the ability to do things that a cellphone can do, albeit from the confines of your desk. If you want full mobility, to be in immediate reach of someone at any time, you'll just have to get a cellphone.

"When in Rome" is not an appeal to anything. It's just a fundamental rule for getting along in the world as a human being. For someone who wants to be fully, purely human (i.e., not a cyborg), you seem to have an illogical and self-defeating determination to separate yourself from certain customs of modern humanity that could actually benefit you.

I understand. I've been there and tried that. I works up to a point, but you seem not to have found that point. I'm still figuring it out too, though getting closer. What I know so far is that we don't have to go along with mindless crowd behavior (consumerism) in order to enjoy the benefits of being part of the crowd, which we all are, like it or not.

Finding such a balance first requires waking up to what being fully human involves. It involves some degree of assimilation. It involves shedding your ego noise -- such as principles, beliefs, and other mental balls and chains -- and realizing that if you want certain things in your life -- such as love and community and connection and a free exchange of ideas -- you will need to accede to being fully human and to allowing other humans to be human in the ways that work for them.

It's fine if you enjoy life more without a cellphone or, for that matter, with no more than 100 or so possessions. Actually, so do I. Just realize that you'll also need to accept the compromise. Don't make the trade-off on principle. Make it honestly and with humility and then don't complain about or be surprised by others' aversion to your decision. Don't drain your pool while wishing you were in a deeper one or be resentful toward others you see as swimming in shallower waters.


https://youtu.be/8CrOL-ydFMI

SteveinMN
10-6-18, 6:10pm
Maybe ten years ago, I was president of a service club. Most of the members worked at the company which hosted the organization but there were some retirees and "associates" (family members of employees) in the club. As is the case with most clubs, it was an all-volunteer effort, and most of us on the board already had full-time jobs. Meeting notices, minutes, and notices of special service opportunities were sent out to club members via email as they happened.

A few of the retirees complained that they were not hearing about things like meeting date/venue changes or last-minute service opportunities until it was too late to respond because they didn't have -- or want -- email. It fell to me to explain that one of us job-holders clicking Send after writing an email notified 25 people in the club immediately but that the other five each needed a phone call or a note -- and that one of those actions was always going to happen faster than the other. "But we don't have computers. That's not a condition of being a club member!" "True, it isn't. But there is the library. Or someone else's computer. The membership rules don't say you have to have a phone, either, and yet how quickly would you hear of anything if you didn't have a phone?" It was 2010; email was not just for the nerds.

My point? Don't carry a mobile phone if you don't want to. But in today's middle-class American society, don't expect that decision to just be accepted without judgement and to suffer no repercussions for your choice. You don't need to tote around a $1000 iPhone or Galaxy; if all you want is the ability to call (or maybe text, people today like that), a cheap (even used) smartphone will do. You don't need to live on your phone like some people do. But if you opt for what you derisively call "full humanity" because you don't carry a mobile phone (please tell me you do not refer to potential lady friends with mobile phones as not fully human) you'll find yourself judged for it, and likely not positively.

As with so many lifestyle choices you make, UL, you seem to consciously separate yourself from the wide population you seem to seek. That's fine if you're willing to pay the price. But you don't often seem willing to do that either. Personally I find that a bit baffling. But I also know that someday the pain of being separate will be greater than the pain of compromise; then things likely will change.

Ultralight
10-6-18, 6:20pm
You would not have to lie about not having a cellphone. Just share your number and say you'll text when you get a chance.

Google Voice gives you a cell number to call or text with, unlike a land line. It's a happy medium that would allow you not to need a gizmo in your pocket while still having the ability to do things that a cellphone can do, albeit from the confines of your desk. If you want full mobility, to be in immediate reach of someone at any time, you'll just have to get a cellphone.

"When in Rome" is not an appeal to anything. It's just a fundamental rule for getting along in the world as a human being. For someone who wants to be fully, purely human (i.e., not a cyborg), you seem to have an illogical and self-defeating determination to separate yourself from certain customs of modern humanity that could actually benefit you.

I understand. I've been there and tried that. I works up to a point, but you seem not to have found that point. I'm still figuring it out too, though getting closer. What I know so far is that we don't have to go along with mindless crowd behavior (consumerism) in order to enjoy the benefits of being part of the crowd, which we all are, like it or not.

Finding such a balance first requires waking up to what being fully human involves. It involves some degree of assimilation. It involves shedding your ego noise -- such as principles, beliefs, and other mental balls and chains -- and realizing that if you want certain things in your life -- such as love and community and connection and a free exchange of ideas -- you will need to accede to being fully human and to allowing other humans to be human in the ways that work for them.

It's fine if you enjoy life more without a cellphone or, for that matter, with no more than 100 or so possessions. Actually, so do I. Just realize that you'll also need to accept the compromise. Don't make the trade-off on principle. Make it honestly and with humility and then don't complain about or be surprised by others' aversion to your decision. Don't drain your pool while wishing you were in a deeper one or be resentful toward others you see as swimming in shallower waters.


https://youtu.be/8CrOL-ydFMI

Posting the video of David is an appeal to authority.

I profoundly dislike cell phones.

Are you saying to be fully human one must become a cyborg? Uh... oooookay, makes sense.

I am not resentful of the shallow swimmers. Those normies are happy. Good on them. Salt of the earth.

Ultralight
10-6-18, 6:22pm
I think my problem is not so much my "rigid" personality or my lack of cell phone.

My problem is centered more on these things:

-My "type" physically is very different than my "type" intellectually.

-My overall lifestyle is unconventional and in a state like Ohio, which is full of normies, it is hard to find a match.

Ultralight
10-6-18, 6:30pm
As with so many lifestyle choices you make, UL, you seem to consciously separate yourself from the wide population you seem to seek. That's fine if you're willing to pay the price. But you don't often seem willing to do that either. Personally I find that a bit baffling. But I also know that someday the pain of being separate will be greater than the pain of compromise; then things likely will change.

Ah yes, the old "the weight of the world will eventually crush your spirit just like it did mine" speech. I remember getting a similar one about Christianity when I was a kid.

What makes you think I am seeking the wide population?

Ultralight
10-6-18, 6:33pm
My point? Don't carry a mobile phone if you don't want to. But in today's middle-class American society, don't expect that decision to just be accepted without judgement and to suffer no repercussions for your choice.

I don't expect it to be accepted. I actually fully expect there to come a time when my job encroaches so much on my life that they force me to get a cell phone and force me to pay for it out of my own pocket. At that point, I will get the phone because I need the job.


But if you opt for what you derisively call "full humanity" because you don't carry a mobile phone (please tell me you do not refer to potential lady friends with mobile phones as not fully human) you'll find yourself judged for it, and likely not positively.

I don't go around calling my dates "cyborgs." lol

SteveinMN
10-7-18, 10:45am
Ah yes, the old "the weight of the world will eventually crush your spirit just like it did mine" speech. I remember getting a similar one about Christianity when I was a kid.

What makes you think I am seeking the wide population?
You said it yourself:

My overall lifestyle is unconventional and in a state like Ohio, which is full of normies, it is hard to find a match.
You believe you'd do better living elsewhere, where the odds of meeting your preferred romantic partner and more minimalists and others who share (at least parts of) your unconventional lifestyle are greater. You may not be seeking "everyone" but you certainly want a wider selection than Columbus offers. Yet you're not packin' up the ol' Nissan and moving on to greener pastures. I know you have reasons for staying in your current job. But while killing off your student loan is your prime directive you're going to have to endure the "barren" landscape that is Columbus. You have made a choice. When you dislike enough the non-dollar price you are paying in your life, you may make a different choice.

As for the "weight of the world crushing spirits" bit, I don't see it that way at all. We all make choices in our lives, at pretty much every moment. Sometimes the choices are obvious, like whether we want cereal or eggs for breakfast. Sometimes the choices are less obvious, like carrying a mobile phone for work even though you hate them but you like getting paid on a regular interval and you have a debt-retirement goal in sight. Not saying the choices are always clear. Or pretty. But you choose at least your reaction to every circumstance in which you find yourself.

And most people, Christian or atheist; black or white or brown or whatever; rich or poor; young or old, choose to change when the cost (pain) of staying where they are is greater than the cost (pain) of changing. When you want those other things more than what you have, you will make a different decision about them. That's not about "crushing souls" -- that's about trying for what you want out of life and not being stuck with (and lamenting) the hand you think you've been dealt.

ApatheticNoMore
10-7-18, 12:06pm
I don't expect it to be accepted. I actually fully expect there to come a time when my job encroaches so much on my life that they force me to get a cell phone and force me to pay for it out of my own pocket. At that point, I will get the phone because I need the job.

i agree if it's work, you do what you have to do, although they have always provided phones when I've been on call. But anything else but work shrug. I have a dumb phone.

I remember bf telling me a story about how at his work, some girl was breaking up with her bf there because his cell phone was broken so I suppose it happens.

Teacher Terry
10-7-18, 12:16pm
Steve, you are absolutely correct!

JaneV2.0
10-7-18, 12:33pm
Supercilious and defensive--a winning combo for sure! :D

Women who don't favor a Luddite companion are narrowing the field, just as you are. I would be inclined to cast a wider net at first--some things you think you can't live with become trifles when you meet someone who dazzles you.

Words of wisdom, Steve.

ApatheticNoMore
10-7-18, 1:05pm
UL: there are two things here really, one is you have a lot of criteria etc. that seem to exclude dates from your life. If you really don't want a relationship that is a legitimate choice: to chose not to be in one now or even ever. Maybe you just like flings but like to lead women on, well that's kind of problematic ... But otherwise you do seem to have endless such lists that don't seem to help. Too many. So people here suspect these lists and your obstinacy prevent you from being in a relationship as that's how you present. However that may be just an online persona and the real reason you have problems with long term relationships are otherwise. Even body type might be something to be more open about (I'm not saying date a woman you consider unattractive, just saying that though I'm not a man it seems to me there are multiple attractive body types, although plenty of unattractive ones as well, but if you can't find them attractive at all then stick with what you can).

The second thing is the desire for conformity in society, which I agree can be over the top (or seem so at times, shrug). It's that middle class conformity Steve talks about, a more conformist class could hardly exist it sometimes seem (although I have no idea if that is who you date). It sometimes seems they survive by conformity so ... yea it gets over the top, to the point where me and my bf discuss articles about how many men don't even like sports but pretend to to get along, where we have discussions on how often it is socially acceptable to need to wash your car etc.. If people are really that bad (well was a news article) it becomes self satire, but one has to do what they have to do.

An alternative is to seek out groups where people are less conforming, so maybe: groups seeking radical social change (by definition they might have issues with the status quo), or something completely different, I've heard 12 step groups can be pretty non-mainstream in that they are people being really honest without pretense (maybe adult children of dysfunctional families). But honestly I suspect this is NOT really what you want, that you would find people like that way too far out of the mainstream and be pretty deeply unhappy with them as dating prospects. "No, I don't want those flakes and nutballs, I want someone with a steady and preferably middle class job and likely always to have one (I admit wanting someone to work if they can is reasonable for anyone), credentialed hopefully with an advanced degree, nothing bad in their past, not much baggage, very mentally healthy, able to fit in whenever they need to to get by, has their life completely together, only of entirely independent mind and openly flouting conformity". Hmm, the Venn diagram of the overlap here might not be that great, and you might be better off just getting a cell phone, if what you seek is actually mostly mainstream then BE mainstream. Dating foreigners might also work (although the whole world has cell phones now) but to the degree one's issues are clashes with middle class American culture ..

Gardenarian
10-7-18, 10:18pm
If you Google "would you date someone without a cell phone" there are several Reddit threads that are kind of enlightening.

I googled it because I can't understand why this would be a deal breaker for anyone. It seems to indicate a lack of open-mindedness and imagination. But then, I'm old (though I have a smartphone.)

Here's a quote from one of the Reddit threads:
And honestly, if someone doesn't have a phone now, then they're probably either not financially-secure or are needlessly contrarian, and neither situation interests me.

ApatheticNoMore
10-8-18, 12:37am
And honestly, if someone doesn't have a phone now, then they're probably either not financially-secure or are needlessly contrarian, and neither situation interests me.

I figure some interpret it like that. How much financial security does owning a cell phone really signify considering that stuff costs little in the scheme of things. But it does signify conformity which might mean more financial security. Sometimes the world is junior high.

herbgeek
10-8-18, 5:18am
Not having a cell phone (or saying you don't have one) could also be a red flag that someone is married and doesn't want you to be able to contact them at inconvenient times.

Ultralight
10-8-18, 7:04am
Not having a cell phone (or saying you don't have one) could also be a red flag that someone is married and doesn't want you to be able to contact them at inconvenient times.

I mentioned this above.

But when you really think about it, it does not make sense. Why? Because I am calling them on my home phone and I tell them this. They have my number when I call them.

herbgeek
10-8-18, 7:38am
Because I am calling them on my home phone and I tell them this.

Could be office phone, could be friend's phone. Yes, it shouldn't matter in an ideal world, but we live in a time where almost everyone has a personal phone and that is often the expectation.

Ultralight
10-8-18, 7:46am
Could be office phone, could be friend's phone. Yes, it shouldn't matter in an ideal world, but we live in a time where almost everyone has a personal phone and that is often the expectation.

So when I explain that I don't have a phone I put it in context and give it some history.

I explain that I am a minimalist, I practice voluntary simplicity. I tell them how I got rid of it back in 2014. I tell them how the salesman at the phone store that I bought my home phone from said: "You'll be back in a week to get your smart phone back!"

So it becomes very believable. Easy to believe.

herbgeek
10-8-18, 8:09am
And yet...


While I have dated quite a bit since then it is only in the past month that women have outright turned me down because I don't have a mobile phone and said as much. And it has happened twice.

So what is YOUR explanation?

Ultralight
10-8-18, 8:17am
And yet...



So what is YOUR explanation?

About not being a Cellulite? I explain that it was annoying me. I also say that I prefer to talk to a real person and to pay attention to them.

Chicken lady
10-8-18, 8:19am
I am finding this very interesting.

i have a cell phone primarily because I have a husband. He likes being able to reach me. I like being able to contact him when I am not at home, because due to our choice of living location, if I leave home I am pretty much gone all day. It is nice to be able to let him know when I am running late or ask if he needs anything at the grocery store. I like knowing that I could call for assistance if my car broke down. But, my phone is a phone (and a pocket watch) I use it to make and receive calls and to check the time. It is small - a large, rectangular pocket watch. I would not like a smart phone because they are too big.

sometimes people text me on my phone, but I rarely text back. Only if the reply is one or two words (will you be home for dinner? “Yes”) or if the situation is important, time critical, and they have let me know they need a response in print (example - Dd is in a meeting, dgs needs to be picked up, she needs to know I am doing it...)

i do have an ipad, which serves as my camera and television, performs the functions of a smartphone that I am lacking and those of a laptop that I need, plus lets me do things like hang out here when I should probably be doing something else....

SteveinMN
10-8-18, 8:24am
I also say that I prefer to talk to a real person and to pay attention to them.
And yet here you are, engaging often in a Web forum in which you've never met any of us in person and -- except for a few random pictures and avatars -- have no idea what we look like or of our voices or body language. That does not seem to affect materially the way you interact with us.

You don't want a mobile phone. Message received. But please don't act like the other several billion people in the world who find one a useful adjunct to their lives are the ones who are "off". You've made your choice; they've made theirs. Neither is wrong but it's a hard sell to intimate that their choice makes them less human.

Float On
10-8-18, 9:09am
If you Google "would you date someone without a cell phone" there are several Reddit threads that are kind of enlightening.

I googled it because I can't understand why this would be a deal breaker for anyone.

I think most would think, "I don't want to date this guy without a cell phone because then he'll expect me to give up my phone or use it less and sister that is not happening."


I say this as someone who has a husband who has an old tracfone slide phone and cusses anytime he has to try to text on it and at least once a day I get a lecture about how people spend too much time on their phones...while he's looking at me....on my phone. Dang it even it's 2 pm and its the first time I picked up my phone all day...to look up a recipe to make a meal for him. I don't want that judgement or lecture.

herbgeek
10-8-18, 9:58am
About not being a Cellulite?

No, your opinion as to why you think women are rejecting you for this is what I was asking.

Miss Cellaneous
10-8-18, 10:10am
Well, all I can say is that if you want to add yet another qualification to your pretty long list of "must-haves" in a potential girlfriend, please go right ahead. It will save lots of women the effort of getting to know you and then realizing that they don't want to be in a relationship with you. No one wants a partner who is sneering at them or their possessions.

I agree with Float On, that women are going to wonder if you will expect them to give up their phones. This is something that comes through in a lot of your posts about relationships. You want a woman who can be a minimalist, but from your posts, I get the impression that you would be the one deciding how much the woman in your life could possess. Forgive me if I'm wrong here, but that's how you come across over the internet. That the minimalism in your home will be decided by you, not your partner.

You seem pretty scornful of people who have cellphones, with your "cyborg*" and "normies" and "real person." So it would be best for all parties if you filtered out cellphone users from the start.

I am also at odds with your definition of cyborg. A cyborg is a human with implanted robotic parts. While I get what you are saying, that some people with cellphones seem to be permanently attached to the phone, not everyone who has a cellphone is. I have a smart phone that I use rarely, but when I have needed it, I have really needed it--like the time my car broke down. Pay phones have been slowly disappearing in the US, and having a cellphone for emergency use, especially if you are a woman, could be a life saver.

LDAHL
10-8-18, 10:33am
I’m married to a cyborg. Her phone is bluetoothed to her hearing aids, she’s got aftermarket knees and some bones held together with screws. I can’t believe my good luck.

JaneV2.0
10-8-18, 10:42am
I’m married to a cyborg. Her phone is bluetoothed to her hearing aids, she’s got aftermarket knees and some bones held together with screws. I can’t believe my good luck.

As someone who isn't aging particularly gracefully, I really appreciate this sentiment.

LDAHL
10-8-18, 10:52am
As someone who isn't aging particularly gracefully, I really appreciate this sentiment.

My experience is that you fall in love with the software rather than the hardware if you have any sense at all.

Teacher Terry
10-8-18, 11:13am
Aging does bring it’s issues but beats the alternative. I have a appointment for a hearing test soon, need reading glasses, have back problems and other health issues. My husband has his own issues. We have been happy together for 20 years and just laugh about this crap. We laugh together multiple times a day. Finding someone compatible is key. Health and good looks fade and you are left with the true person inside. Make sure you like who that is.

Tybee
10-8-18, 12:02pm
Aging does bring it’s issues but beats the alternative. I have a appointment for a hearing test soon, need reading glasses, have back problems and other health issues. My husband has his own issues. We have been happy together for 20 years and just laugh about this crap. We laugh together multiple times a day. Finding someone compatible is key. Health and good looks fade and you are left with the true person inside. Make sure you like who that is.

This is such great advice, Terry. My husband just had his hearing tested and the doctor said, "You have the best hearing I have ever seen in an over 60 year old man." I said, gosh, it would be more helpful to be measured against the 40 year olds. But at least he got a clean bill of health.

Compatability is everything. We share so many things in common that we like to do, and we have a wonderful time together experiencing the world. I like to think I've got his back and he mine. He is still very cute, of course, but neither of us looks like we did in our 20's. But that would be kind of creepy, like living with Dick Clark or something.

Ultralight
10-8-18, 2:10pm
No, your opinion as to why you think women are rejecting you for this is what I was asking.

Some probably lack self-confidence and feel like I'd be judging them for being a Cellulite. Like a skinny person watching a fat person eat a huge bundt cake.

Some probably lack self-confidence and want to have access and immediate contact with me any given time. Clingy, that sort of thing.

Some probably think: "If he is weird enough to be without a cell phone then he is probably really weird in other ways!"

Others probably just don't want to deal with peer pressure, like they don't want to have to explain why their boyfriend doesn't have a cell phone.

Ultralight
10-8-18, 2:12pm
And yet here you are, engaging often in a Web forum in which you've never met any of us in person and -- except for a few random pictures and avatars -- have no idea what we look like or of our voices or body language. That does not seem to affect materially the way you interact with us.

You don't want a mobile phone. Message received. But please don't act like the other several billion people in the world who find one a useful adjunct to their lives are the ones who are "off". You've made your choice; they've made theirs. Neither is wrong but it's a hard sell to intimate that their choice makes them less human.


I agree that my time on here and my laptop usage is a bit cyborg. But I leave it at home. I unplug it on Sundays, sometimes the whole weekend.

Also: I ain't trying to marry any of you! ;)

Ultralight
10-8-18, 2:13pm
I think most would think, "I don't want to date this guy without a cell phone because then he'll expect me to give up my phone or use it less and sister that is not happening."




To me this looks like a lack of self-confidence.

Ultralight
10-8-18, 2:17pm
Well, all I can say is that if you want to add yet another qualification to your pretty long list of "must-haves" in a potential girlfriend, please go right ahead. It will save lots of women the effort of getting to know you and then realizing that they don't want to be in a relationship with you. No one wants a partner who is sneering at them or their possessions.

Just how long do you think my list is?

In this context I don't want her to give her phone up. I just want her to be okay with me not having one. I also want a partner that will leave the phone in her purse on date night, while driving, or while "tumbling."

Not really asking so much. Right?

Float On
10-8-18, 2:31pm
To me this looks like a lack of self-confidence.

No. Just the opposite.

Miss Cellaneous
10-8-18, 3:17pm
Just how long do you think my list is?

In this context I don't want her to give her phone up. I just want her to be okay with me not having one. I also want a partner that will leave the phone in her purse on date night, while driving, or while "tumbling."

Not really asking so much. Right?

The only one who can answer that question is the woman you are interested in dating. Although I agree that cellphones should not be used while driving.


Some probably lack self-confidence and feel like I'd be judging them for being a Cellulite. Like a skinny person watching a fat person eat a huge bundt cake.

The use of the term "Cellulite" implies judgement on your part, as does your example. so these women would be correct.

Ultralight
10-8-18, 4:00pm
The use of the term "Cellulite" implies judgement on your part, as does your example. so these women would be correct.

People are are desperately afraid of being judged tend to lack self-confidence.

Ultralight
10-8-18, 4:03pm
No. Just the opposite.


Let's think about this. Let's say I met a woman I really like, but who was into running marathons.

Following your train of thought: "I don't want to date her because she is a runner and I am not a runner. So she will probably make me run laps with her. That ain't happenin', sistah!"

But my train of thought is this: "I am open to dating a woman who is a runner of marathons. If she wants me to run laps with her I will simply decline. Though I will cheer her on and support her marathon running."

In my train of thought I don't worry about her judging me or "making" me do something. Why? Self-confidence.

Oddball
10-8-18, 4:39pm
Posting the video of David is an appeal to authority.

I profoundly dislike cell phones.

Are you saying to be fully human one must become a cyborg? Uh... oooookay, makes sense.

I am not resentful of the shallow swimmers. Those normies are happy. Good on them. Salt of the earth.


I think my problem is not so much my "rigid" personality or my lack of cell phone.

My problem is centered more on these things:

-My "type" physically is very different than my "type" intellectually.

-My overall lifestyle is unconventional and in a state like Ohio, which is full of normies, it is hard to find a match.

Now I get it.

All through the day, I me mine, I me mine, I me mine. All through the night, I me mine, I me mine, I me mine.

Look, I was a lot like you for most of my life. In some ways, to my own chagrin, I still am. It took me decades to realize my ignorance. You're probably a decade or more from realizing yours. Just thought I'd try to save you some time. If you think David Foster Wallace represents authority, here's the same message in a language you might understand someday.


https://youtu.be/238eyr08Np0

Teacher Terry
10-8-18, 5:01pm
It boils down to "Do you want to be right or happy?"

Ultralight
10-8-18, 5:02pm
Now I get it.

All through the day, I me mine, I me mine, I me mine. All through the night, I me mine, I me mine, I me mine.

Look, I was a lot like you for most of my life. In some ways, to my own chagrin, I still am. It took me decades to realize my ignorance. You're probably a decade or more from realizing yours. Just thought I'd try to save you some time. If you think David Foster Wallace represents authority, here's the same message in a language you might understand someday.


https://youtu.be/238eyr08Np0

They got a name for the winners in the world
I want a name when I lose
They call Alabama the Crimson Tide
Call me Deacon Blues

Love Steely Dan!!!!!!!! And I graduated from the University of Alabama!

Ultralight
10-8-18, 5:06pm
It boils down to "Do you want to be right or happy?"

False dichotomy.

Teacher Terry
10-8-18, 5:08pm
You want to be right.

Ultralight
10-8-18, 5:36pm
You want to be right.

Right about what?

Chicken lady
10-8-18, 5:52pm
Everything.

Ultralight
10-8-18, 5:55pm
Everything.

Of course, I would like to be right about everything. Do you want to be wrong about things?

Chicken lady
10-8-18, 5:58pm
No, some of us just accept it more easily than others.

actually, often I want to be wrong and am sadly not.

iris lilies
10-8-18, 6:30pm
No, some of us just accept it more easily than others.

actually, often I want to be wrong and am sadly not.

I know! I love it when
I have predicted bad outcomes and
I wrong!

Miss Cellaneous
10-9-18, 9:11am
People are are desperately afraid of being judged tend to lack self-confidence.

That's an interesting assumption.

It is possible that some women simply do not want a relationship with a man who looks down on them for having a cellphone and who calls them cyborgs and Cellulites and normies. Who, in effect, belittles them.

That may not be what your goal is. But that is what is coming across in your writing.

Miss Cellaneous
10-9-18, 9:23am
Let's think about this. Let's say I met a woman I really like, but who was into running marathons.

Following your train of thought: "I don't want to date her because she is a runner and I am not a runner. So she will probably make me run laps with her. That ain't happenin', sistah!"

But my train of thought is this: "I am open to dating a woman who is a runner of marathons. If she wants me to run laps with her I will simply decline. Though I will cheer her on and support her marathon running."

In my train of thought I don't worry about her judging me or "making" me do something. Why? Self-confidence.

I cannot speak to your self-confidence.

However, someone else, with self-confidence, might have a different opinion of dating a serious runner. They might think, "Humm. She has a restrictive diet that has a lot of food I don't eat and not a lot of the food I do eat. She couldn't eat much of the meal I prepared for her last week because it didn't meet her diet requirements. She spends hours before and after work running and working out. She is at a different level than me, so we couldn't work out together. And she spends every other weekend traveling to various races. That would get boring for me after a while. So I choose not to date her, because we wouldn't be able to spend much time together, and spending time together and cooking are two of my favorite things to do."

And the woman herself might think, "Humm. He [generic he, not Ultralight] doesn't run. In fact, he doesn't do anything athletic, really. So we don't have that area of common interest. He is interested in museums and reading and volunteering at the animal shelter. I really don't have time for any of that right now. If I did enter a relationship with him, we wouldn't be able to spend much time together, and I am looking for someone I can share most of my life with. So, even though he is a nice guy, I am going to choose not to date him."

Both of these are equally valid points of view, as is yours. Different people want different things from a relationship. It has nothing to do with self-confidence and a lot to do with what each individual wants. Just because different people have different priorities does not make them lacking in self-confidence.

LDAHL
10-9-18, 11:02am
That's an interesting assumption.

It is possible that some women simply do not want a relationship with a man who looks down on them for having a cellphone and who calls them cyborgs and Cellulites and normies. Who, in effect, belittles them.

That may not be what your goal is. But that is what is coming across in your writing.

That’s very true. There’s a difference between being desperately afraid and mildly irritated; although in this context the outcome for the would be judge will probably be much the same.

JaneV2.0
10-9-18, 11:34am
I doubt your need to be right all the time is going to be attractive to most women.

Teacher Terry
10-9-18, 11:54am
I totally agree Jane but UL said I am wrong about that. :~)

LDAHL
10-9-18, 12:10pm
I doubt your need to be right all the time is going to be attractive to most women.

“To keep your marriage flowing,
with love from the loving cup.
Whenever you’re wrong admit it.
Whenever you’re right shut up.”
- Ogden Nash

JaneV2.0
10-9-18, 1:10pm
I totally agree Jane but UL said I am wrong about that. :~)

Geez--how did I miss that? He recovered nicely, though.

ToomuchStuff
10-9-18, 3:17pm
Of course, I would like to be right about everything. Do you want to be wrong about things?

Those interested in science do, as it means there is more to learn. So know I know a know it all.

Ultralight
10-9-18, 5:19pm
That's an interesting assumption.

It is possible that some women simply do not want a relationship with a man who looks down on them for having a cellphone and who calls them cyborgs and Cellulites and normies. Who, in effect, belittles them.

That may not be what your goal is. But that is what is coming across in your writing.

I do not call women I date any names. Let the record show that!

Ultralight
10-9-18, 5:20pm
Those interested in science do, as it means there is more to learn. So know I know a know it all.

What I mean is that I want to have the correct information rather than incorrect information.

I am willing to bet scientists also want the correct information.

Ultralight
10-9-18, 5:21pm
I doubt your need to be right all the time is going to be attractive to most women.

When did I say I need to be right? Find that and quote me. Preview: You can't! Gotcha.

Gardenarian
10-9-18, 5:55pm
From a different angle, my DD uses Tinder and some of the people she has met go on as many as 20 dates per WEEK. So, they are dating a lot of people just once. That's a lot of rejection going around.

Women have a huge pool to choose from in online dating; they get far more swipes than men. So they can be ultra-choosy. They need ways to sort out who to go out with. DD has over 900 swipes (I think that's what she calls them) and we live in a city of around 20,000 (3,000 at the University.)

Having a cell phone wouldn't matter to her - at least not at first, though if she waited around in the rain for someone who couldn't text her, well, that's another story. She does want someone who is at least as tall as she is, and attractive, and no drugs or smoke.

Women are the deciders in the online dating world. It's just the way it is.

Gardenarian
10-9-18, 5:58pm
Also, with all those 'likes' DD has gone on a total of three Tinder dates, which were fun but, no sparks.

Ultralight
10-9-18, 6:05pm
From a different angle, my DD uses Tinder and some of the people she has met go on as many as 20 dates per WEEK. So, they are dating a lot of people just once. That's a lot of rejection going around.

Women have a huge pool to choose from in online dating; they get far more swipes than men. So they can be ultra-choosy. They need ways to sort out who to go out with. DD has over 900 swipes (I think that's what she calls them) and we live in a city of around 20,000 (3,000 at the University.)

Having a cell phone wouldn't matter to her - at least not at first, though if she waited around in the rain for someone who couldn't text her, well, that's another story. She does want someone who is at least as tall as she is, and attractive, and no drugs or smoke.

Women are the deciders in the online dating world. It's just the way it is.

Rough thought experiment here...

Let's look at it this way: Suppose there are 1000 men on Tindr and 1000 women on Tindr.

A huge number of those men are swiping on a huge number of women. Does this really mean they have a huge pool to choose from or that lots and lots of low-quality men are swiping them? Your DD three dates would tell me that lots of low-quality men are swiping her.

So let's say that 100 of those thousand men are high quality. For there to be a huge pool of quality men for women to choose from then there would have to be what 10 or 20 quality women within that pool of a thousand women?

Ultralight
10-9-18, 6:10pm
I ain't no ladies man, but I reject more women on Match.com than reject me. I could go on a date every other day fairly easily. But I can weed a lot of these women out: They want kids, they have a gazillion kids, they are high maintenance, they are super religious, etc.

I have women "liking" me and sending me messages often. And I am a 39 year old, 5'9", balding, fat, middle aged divorcee with three useless degrees, and an unremarkable career.

If I was also Christian and wanted babies I could probably be married to an attractive physician in 6 months.

SteveinMN
10-9-18, 7:37pm
Rough thought experiment here...

Let's look at it this way: Suppose there are 1000 men on Tindr and 1000 women on Tindr.

A huge number of those men are swiping on a huge number of women. Does this really mean they have a huge pool to choose from or that lots and lots of low-quality men are swiping them? Your DD three dates would tell me that lots of low-quality men are swiping her.

So let's say that 100 of those thousand men are high quality. For there to be a huge pool of quality men for women to choose from then there would have to be what 10 or 20 quality women within that pool of a thousand women?
Who is the arbiter of "high quality"? What criterion does someone have to meet to be considered "high quality"? 20-something? Full head of hair? Steady job? Steady job that pays more than X a year? Never been married? Never been divorced? IMWTK...

For what it's worth, I probably went on dates with four women I met on-line (the last being DW) and I dated one woman who introduced herself to me via an email through mutual friends.

DW and I have been doing fine for more than a decade and are looking forward to growing old together. With two of the women I dated, one date was enough for us to decide we weren't for each other. The other woman and I dated for 4-5 months; she dropped me for a musician but they've been married for eight years now, she has a successful career with her own business, and both of her kids are out of the house and in college. The woman I was introduced to via email dated me for about three months before we broke up; she had a different timetable for getting remarried than I did, but she has been married to the same guy for more than a decade now, also has a successful career, launched three great kids, is a grandma several times over, and leads an active social life among her husband and her own friends.

Even though I am not with either one of those women, I would not characterize them as less than "high quality". We simply didn't want the same things from life (or at least at the same time). Certainly there were on-line postings by people whom you could pretty well tell had "issues" (or at least enough symptoms of them that I could surmise that wouldn't be my thing). But either I was one of the luckiest guys around or there are more "high quality" women out there than you seem to think.

Gardenarian
10-9-18, 9:02pm
Okay, obviously Match.com and Tinder are very different.

If the problem is that women don't know about your lack of cell phone until you date them, then clearly you should put it in your profile. Now you know it's an issue, be upfront about it.

Ultralight
10-10-18, 5:56am
Okay, obviously Match.com and Tinder are very different.

If the problem is that women don't know about your lack of cell phone until you date them, then clearly you should put it in your profile. Now you know it's an issue, be upfront about it.

Tinder is more of a "hook-up" site for sex whereas Match is relationship-oriented.

I am upfront about not being a cellulite during the first set of messages exchanged on the site. Or during the first phone call.

Ultralight
10-10-18, 5:57am
What I find to be interesting is that the women's choice to decline me based on my cell phone is resoundingly defended even though it has nothing to do with my character, my ethics, my kindness, my dedication as a partner, etc. It has nothing to do with anything of substance.

Miss Cellaneous
10-10-18, 7:33am
Well, it is possible that the cell phone thing isn’t the real reason. So many women in the US have been brought up to be nice and never hurt anyone’s feelings that there could very likely be a completely different, more personal reason they are saying, “no,” but they are too polite to tell you that, so they have chosen the more neutral issue of the cell phone.

Ultralight
10-10-18, 7:34am
Well, it is possible that the cell phone thing isn’t the real reason. So many women in the US have been brought up to be nice and never hurt anyone’s feelings that there could very likely be a completely different, more personal reason they are saying, “no,” but they are too polite to tell you that, so they have chosen the more neutral issue of the cell phone.

Dishonest, but not a big deal.

Chicken lady
10-10-18, 7:49am
Actually, I think it probably is the cell phone. your lack of cell phone is a big indicator of your lifestyle choices.

it also modifies your minimalism - there are minimalists who don’t have stuff because they travel light due to being very digitized - cell phone = books, magazines, newspapers, videos, phone, clock, watch, alarm, music, mail, games, maps......

then there are the “Thoreau” style minimalists.

you are neither, but the adamant “no phone” casts you in the Luddite camp.

Ultralight
10-10-18, 7:55am
Actually, I think it probably is the cell phone. your lack of cell phone is a big indicator of your lifestyle choices.

Ding, ding, ding! You are correct.

SteveinMN
10-10-18, 8:52am
What I find to be interesting is that the women's choice to decline me based on my cell phone is resoundingly defended even though it has nothing to do with my character, my ethics, my kindness, my dedication as a partner, etc. It has nothing to do with anything of substance.
You defend your preferences (minimalism, no kids, etc.) and judge potential partners based on their preferences for kids and "stuff" (including mobile phones) even though that has nothing to do with their character, their ethics, their kindness, or their dedication as a partner.

Surely you know that, for most people -- sometimes to a startling degree -- perception is reality. Potential partners are reflecting their perception of you based on your profile and whatever other details you reveal about yourself during your initial contacts. Want to change anything about that?

catherine
10-10-18, 9:43am
I think this is an interesting thread, actually. I don't have any strong opinions on it. Since I never ever had the choice to date with or without a cell phone (my dating stopped in 1976), I am trying hard to put myself in the shoes of the women who are turning UL down on the basis of this one thing. I'm coming up empty. It might simply be that not having a cell phone puts UL solidly in a counter-culture realm that most women, being of THIS particular culture, don't understand--it might make them think UL is "weird." From a practical standpoint, maybe they are so engrained in being able to text their SO at any time of the day or night, or be be reasonably certain they would be at arm's length for a conversation, they probably just can't wrap their minds around it.

It is, truly, an interesting statement about where we have come over the past two decades.

I have a Luddite son. It took him forever to get a cell phone, but he finally got one. He was the last of his peers to get a TV and a computer. But he has fallen into the way of modern day communication, for better or worse. And he got married a couple of years ago. Is there a connection? I hardly think so.

I do think Miss Cellaneous has a point, though. It may be a mask for a general lack of interest for a variety of reasons, and the cell phone one is an easy out.

As I tell my OTHER son who frequently feels very insecure that he'll never find a woman because he doesn't have money or "good prospects" from a career perspective, you just go where like-minded people are most likely to be. I know it's a trite mom-saying, but "there's someone for everybody." If there are men like you and my son, there are women like you and my son.

ApatheticNoMore
10-10-18, 10:42am
you can go where like-minded people are but you have to accept the limitations of that and what dating pool you have chosen (counter-cultural people might not always be that successful in this culture etc.).

Teacher Terry
10-10-18, 10:45am
My son met his wife on a train. For a long time I clung to books and newspapers. Then I realized it was much easier to have them on my phone and I could read whatever I wanted. I no longer had to pay 30 /month for the paper or put it on hold when I go on vacation.