View Full Version : Khashoggi Disappearance: Looming Crisis or Simple Distraction?
Williamsmith
10-14-18, 10:15am
Jamal Khashoggi was in self imposed exile from Saudi Arabia because of his outspoken criticisms of the Saudi King. Such freedom of speech does not exist in Saudi Arabia. Had he stayed he would have been arrested or killed. So he took up residence in the US and wrote for the Washington Post. He recently sought to obtain divorce papers that would free him to marry his Turkish fiancé. He went to the consulate in Turkey and disappeared.
The Saudis have provided no proof of his leaving the consulate. Senators on the foreign affairs committee have received confidential briefings and apparently evidence that Khashoggi was killed at the consulate. Trump has made statements about serious consequences over the incident. The Saudis have fired back with retaliatory threats regarding the health of the world economy.
Is this Trumps biggest foreign policy nightmare yet? Or just political posturing.
The Saudis are a key component of the US military industrial complex. We sell boat loads of arms to them that they are using in Yemen and they fund our military activity in the Middle East. To say nothing of the petrol dollar connection. Gas prices?
JaneV2.0
10-14-18, 10:29am
This story makes me sick. Here's what Malcolm Nance tweeted back in April:
As predicted, Kushner gave the Saudis a list of "enemies" to arrest. Clearly, Trump authorized this divulging of classified information. He also likely tasked NSA and Treasury intel to target those Saudi civilians for MBS (Saudi Prince Mohammed bin Salman).
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5575395/Saudi-crown-prince-brags-Jared-Kushner-handed-U-S-intelligence.html
Aside from the brutal nature of the (purported) murder, I can't help thinking of his fiancee, anticipating a joyous event in their future, waiting outside. And waiting.
But Trump will probably say MBS denied it, so that's that. There's a special place in hell for this bunch.
Trump will not do anything. He got the pastor out to offset the political damage from the murder. And he said yesterday the Saudi arms deal is still on.
Teacher Terry
10-14-18, 12:41pm
I am totally not blaming the victim but I am surprised he went there knowing how terrible those people can be. I would have just lived in sin. Maybe his fiancée wasn’t willing to do that. Just so sad.
ApatheticNoMore
10-14-18, 1:01pm
But did he really know how terrible those people can be, I mean it seems he was still a supporter of the Saudi ruling class, and he had hobnobbed with them, and supported their rule, he was just engaged in some infighting, some inter-party spat almost. He probably knew he took some risk but likely way underestimated how much.
So I don't even exactly see him as a victim, that we must not blame. I don't think he deserved to die of course, that's the Saudi's being the brutal murderous thugs they are. I don't know that he ever personally did anything wrong other than being a supporter of dictators, who he also criticized on technicalities, but he also wasn't a hero or a naif.
He was only a permanent resident, not a citizen, and he worked for Trump's nemesis, the Washington Post. That's undoubtedly how he got on the list.
The Saudis have provided no proof of his leaving the consulate. What I find most interesting about this is the manner in which the Turks have compromised their extensive bugging of the Embassy. That seems like a high price to pay in order to be helpful.
There's a lot of things that make you go hmmmm in this event, it's almost like someone's been reading too many Tom Clancy novels.
flowerseverywhere
10-14-18, 4:30pm
A likely outcome is to create even more war refugees nobody wants.
I'm curious why this particular murder rates such outrage, considering how many people we and our allies and our "enemies" imprison, torture, and kill on a regular sort of day.
Teacher Terry
10-14-18, 4:44pm
They think they dismembered him. Don’t know if that’s more gruesome than normal.
I'm curious why this particular murder rates such outrage, considering how many people we and our allies and our "enemies" imprison, torture, and kill on a regular sort of day.
Because it's easier to identify with an individual than with masses of victims?
I reserve the right to be outraged by my choice of the heinous events happening on a daily basis. This one really got to me, for some reason. Maybe it was that Khashoggi looked familiar, facial hair and all. Also the poor, jailed kids at the border. Talk about impotent rage.
The massive collateral damage done by greed and war and international politics is beyond most people's comprehension.
They think they dismembered him. Don’t know if that’s more gruesome than normal.
Homosexuality in Saudi Arabia is punished by stoning to death, so perhaps their metric for "gruesome" is different from ours here in the US.
Teacher Terry
10-14-18, 6:29pm
I know that Bae as my brother worked there for 8 years. My ex wanted to do the same and I said fine but the kids and I aren’t going and he didn’t want to go alone.
May I suggest that this is a power struggle within the Mideast powers against the Saudi crown prince to dislodge him. He has ruffled a number of feathers so the best way to dislodge him is to show his inappropriate behaviour to the world within and without. There are many other princes waiting in the wings to take their turn in ruling.
I find it hard to believe that the Kashoggi (sp) was that naive going into the embassy. We will never hear 'the rest of the story'.
Williamsmith
10-14-18, 8:37pm
What I find most interesting about this is the manner in which the Turks have compromised their extensive bugging of the Embassy. That seems like a high price to pay in order to be helpful.
There's a lot of things that make you go hmmmm in this event, it's almost like someone's been reading too many Tom Clancy novels.
I have read investigative reporting from overseas sources that state Khashoggi was wearing an Apple Watch when he entered the consulate and that the watch was paired with his iPhone that remained outside the consulate in the possession of his fiancé. This leads to speculation that information could have been obtained from the iCloud regarding Khashoggis heartbeat and GPS location by time stamp. The Turkish government has probably not compromised their surveillance capabilities but have certainly enhanced their understanding of the circumstances through the combined intelligence of surveillance and the Apple technology Khashoggi was using to deter his kidnapping or foul play.
catherine
10-14-18, 8:40pm
Gosh, WS, my "wee pea brain" (as DH call his) wants to know: what do you mean?
Williamsmith
10-14-18, 10:13pm
I’ll let this be an explanation: It should be interesting to see if US news elaborates down the road. If you don’t want to Disappear like Jimmy Hoffa, you attach a device to yourself that will report the kind of suspicious data such as a vanishing heartbeat, failure to move about as a human would, change in brain functions, failure to burn calories, enter sleep or a myriad of symptoms not consistent with a healthy life. It can show evidence of being tortured so that someone can intervene on your behalf. A special watch might be provided by a special government agency.
Copied and plastered from this website:https://www.lifewire.com/can-you-use-apple-watch-with-ipad-1994095
What Can the Apple Watch Do Without an iPhone?If you want to get the most out of your Apple Watch without the need to bring along your iPhone, you can purchase a watch with Cellular connectivity. This will allow you to accept phone calls, receive text messages and stream music without using your iPhone. However, this will drain the Apple Watch's battery faster (https://appleinsider.com/articles/17/02/22/how-to-make-your-apple-watch-battery-last-longer) and is not recommended for all-day use.
But there are a number of things the Apple Watch can do without being connected to the iPhone even without a cellular connection. It can track your steps, measure heartbeat, analyze your sleep and give you calorie burn estimates for some activities. The newest watch can even perform an EKG.
ApatheticNoMore
10-14-18, 11:04pm
I'm curious why this particular murder rates such outrage, considering how many people we and our allies and our "enemies" imprison, torture, and kill on a regular sort of day.
the answer I sometimes suspect is some agenda must be being pursued, a foreign policy one and not just a Dem vs Reps one I'd suspect. But also I guess a lot of journalists etc. personally knew the guy, and they don't know the hoi polloi, even in this country really, but especially not in some country on the other side of the world.
the massive collateral damage done by greed and war and international politics is beyond most people's comprehension.
not beyond comprehension, I don't think you can really know what war is from an emotional, experiential, and even to some degree from a factual, perspective unless you've lived it, but you can get more than enough of an intellectual understanding of the horror of it all, but not if you don't want to know.
...
not beyond comprehension, I don't think you can really know what war is from an emotional, experiential, and even to some degree from a factual, perspective unless you've lived it, but you can get more than enough of an intellectual understanding of the horror of it all, but not if you don't want to know.
People probably don't want to know because there are only so many fronts you can fight on, and not much you can do about any of it, so the alternative is going mad with frustration and grief if you allow yourself to really think about it.
WilliamSmith.......Don't you think those people who may have killed him, know about those kinds of watches and may have removed it first off.? And if they didn't, and it showed essentially his moment of death......don't you think that might have been reported by now? Just wondering.....
Williamsmith
10-15-18, 9:57pm
WilliamSmith.......Don't you think those people who may have killed him, know about those kinds of watches and may have removed it first off.? And if they didn't, and it showed essentially his moment of death......don't you think that might have been reported by now? Just wondering.....
CathyA, that’s the point. It can’t be removed without raising alarms. .And you can’t torture someone without it transmitting suspicious feedback. I would suspect the watch wasn’t the only device Khashoggi was carrying.
It is a possibility that US intelligence knew Khashoggi was going to be interrogated. While in the consulate, the Saudis can do whatever they want. The release of the “American Pastor” was quite coincidental to the Khashoggi mishap.
Williamsmith
10-17-18, 7:31am
If you are waiting for the US mainstream press to shed light on this situation , seems like you’ll wait a long time. They ceased investigative reporting a long time ago. But there are sources from which some interesting details emerge.
Some things about this situation that make you wonder. Why is Trump and people like Lindsey Graham suddenly outraged over the human rights violation of one reporter ....of the Washington Post non the less? Especially when compared to the slaughter of Yemen’s civilians by the Saudi bombing. Why suddenly the threats against the Saudi government?
Well there is this $15 billion dollar “big arms deal” of the Lockheed Martin THAAD air missile defense system whose deadline for sealing the deal passed two days before Khashoggis disappearance. And there is the Saudis actively seeking to purchase the cheaper Russian version called the S-400. Is this really human rights outrage or just a pretext to pressure Saudi Arabia to finalize the air defense deal? Who is Senator Lindsey Graham’s largest campaign finance contributor? Lockheed Martin.
Was Khashoggi merely a malcontented journalist seeking asylum? He had strong ties with the Muslim Brotherhood, the Saudi intelligence as media advisor, a supporter of the “Arab Spring”, regime change in Syria, and nephew to Adnan Khashoggi - once the richest man in Saudi Arabia and an arms dealer who brokered the sale of military weapons to Saudi Arabia for the US. Who was charged in the Iran-Contra affair and sold his yacht for $30 million dollars to Donald Trump.
So whats at stake here? Trump isn’t exactly the smoothest character when it comes to touchy foreign relations. Could this strong arming backfire. What if Saudi Arabia decides to have a Russian military base, or run oil prices up into the $200 range, or cripple the US economy by simply not buying military arms?
Truly, a Tom Clancy novel in the making.
flowerseverywhere
10-17-18, 8:00am
If you are waiting for the US mainstream press to shed light on this situation , seems like you’ll wait a long time. They ceased investigative reporting a long time ago.
Sadly, so very true. Here in Florida I am amazed at the political lying ads, and newspaper and TV reporting on the candidates and amendments. In the Khashoggi murder case, the reporting seems so sensational, murky and self serving.
How many times have people said “follow the money” as that is what it all seems about. And I can guarantee you it is not about an arms deal, or whatever the issue turn out to be making the US rich. It is about politicians making themselves, their kin and cronies rich. Crooks and liars rule our country on both sides of the aisle.
Well spoken, WS.
It is a very murky mess. I watched an analysis of the whole Saudi arms deal. It seems that Obama administration originally set this trade deal in motion years ago. It is spread over years/decades based on letters of intent with no definite commitment that the Saudis would follow through.
i wonder what Turkey is gaining based on its actions at present? It will gain but I suspect we will never know.
CathyA, that’s the point. It can’t be removed without raising alarms. .And you can’t torture someone without it transmitting suspicious feedback. I would suspect the watch wasn’t the only device Khashoggi was carrying.
It is a possibility that US intelligence knew Khashoggi was going to be interrogated. While in the consulate, the Saudis can do whatever they want. The release of the “American Pastor” was quite coincidental to the Khashoggi mishap.
Thanks WS!
It seems like Trump is always supporting the potential bad guys, instead of his own country.
Do we know how much financial stuff of Trump's is tied up in Saudi Arabia?.....and is it influencing his judgement?
Williamsmith
10-17-18, 9:20am
The military industrial complex is truly not simply about preserving the peace worldwide for the US. It is about the permanent war machine keeping the US economy growing. Without it, Trump doesn’t get re-elected. Without it, nobody gets re-elected. People who rebuff this statement like to claim that we only spend about 3% of our GDP on our military but that hides the fact the our workforce and our entire economy is hinged on the military component. Without it, jobs would be shed to the tune of a depression like catastrophe. Trump himself stated in the recent much quoted interview on 60 minutes that he didn’t want to upset the Saudis because he didn’t want to hurt Raytheon, Lockheed Martin and Boeing and lose all those jobs.
Well, the question some have asked for a long time is, “Is capitalism capable of supporting itself without the war machine?”
catherine
10-17-18, 10:09am
Well, the question some have asked for a long time is, “Is capitalism capable of supporting itself without the war machine?”
Great question.
JaneV2.0
10-17-18, 11:52am
Great question.
I saw a graphic yesterday that showed the amount of "treasure" spent on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars plus the last two disastrous tax cuts. If we hadn't thrown those monies away, we'd have a surplus. The wars alone cost eleven billion a month, per Forbes magazine.
catherine
10-17-18, 11:56am
I saw a graphic yesterday that showed the amount of "treasure" spent on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars plus the last two disastrous tax cuts. If we hadn't thrown those monies away, we'd have a surplus. The wars alone cost eleven billion a month, per Forbes magazine.
Hmm.. according to Jeffrey Sachs (The End of Poverty, The Price of Civilization), it would cost roughly that much for 20 years to end world poverty. https://www.visionofearth.org/economics/ending-poverty/how-much-would-it-cost-to-end-extreme-poverty-in-the-world/
Hmm...would you rather.....
JaneV2.0
10-17-18, 12:44pm
I've always been outraged by the percentage of my taxes that funded various (unnecessary) wars, (and at the fact that the US is the arms dealer to the world.)
I've always been outraged by the percentage of my taxes that funded various (unnecessary) wars, (and at the fact that the US is the arms dealer to the world.)
But if we dont arm them then how can we justify freaking out about how scary and dangerous they are and therefore we need to go have a war? It’s a win all tge way around! /snark
That crossed my mind--we have to keep arming everybody to keep the wars in play, so our government can manipulate their gullible citizenry.
Williamsmith
10-18-18, 9:00am
Following the expanding story here, I get the feeling like Trump is up to his armpits in alligators with this thing. He needs to be careful or he could be suffering from a hangover real soon. If he doesn’t drink alcohol by now, he might start.
The most likely scenario is that he keeps assuring the public that his administration is getting to the bottom of things while waxing eloquently about a rogue uncontrolled faction of the Saudi intelligence community taking actions that weren’t sanctioned by the King or Crowned Prince. Never mind the King is senile and the Crowned Prince is a homicidal, genocidal maniac. It’s Iran that’s the real problem, right?
Meantime, a futile effort to remove the immature Prince Mohammad bin Salman by some type of regime manipulation is probably part of several contingencies. He is proving not to be a team player. But a Crowned Prince, incumbent to the throne for the next forty or fifty years ....makes North Korea look like the Salvation Army.
Turkey, by the way, is thrilled that the Saudis have given them a reason to be relevant to the US again. Trump will owe them big time after they are done exposing the gruesome murder of Khashoggi. If Trump plays his cards right the THAAD missile defense system sale will go through, be delivered and installed. Khashoggi will be forgotten history by then and maybe Trump will even address the nation on prime time television to report how swimmingly well our relations with the Saudis are and how they’ve cleaned up their penchant for terrorizing peoples who aren’t the brand of Islam they are.
And our economy will be chugging along just fine in time for the 2020 re-election campaign which will start right after the mid terms. Trump does have a “trump” card and that is if worse comes to worst the entire continental US is poised for a fracking frenzy that will make the US independent of Saudi oil in the near term. It will at least fuel our war machine if needed.
JaneV2.0
10-18-18, 11:23am
The details that are coming out are even more sickening than the original story. Keep in mind that Khashoggi had the same legal status as Melania's "chain migration" parents. He worked for Trump's nemesis Washington Post, writing opinion pieces mildly critical of Saudi policies. So Kushner put him on a hit list:
Saudi crown prince Mohammed bin Salman met with Jared Kushner in October
Salman has since bragged about using classified intelligence from Kushner as part of a crackdown on 'corrupt' princes and businessmen in Saudi Arabia
He said the intelligence from Kushner included information on those who were disloyal to Salman and who were his 'enemies', insiders tell DailyMail
(UK, Daily Mail)
But this obscenity is of no consequence, as long as the Trump family makes money. I remember when we used to have at least the appearance of principles...
Williamsmith
10-18-18, 12:14pm
The details that are coming out are even more sickening than the original story. Keep in mind that Khashoggi had the same legal status as Melania's "chain migration" parents. He worked for Trump's nemesis Washington Post, writing opinion pieces mildly critical of Saudi policies. So Kushner put him on a hit list:
Saudi crown prince Mohammed bin Salman met with Jared Kushner in October
Salman has since bragged about using classified intelligence from Kushner as part of a crackdown on 'corrupt' princes and businessmen in Saudi Arabia
He said the intelligence from Kushner included information on those who were disloyal to Salman and who were his 'enemies', insiders tell DailyMail
(UK, Daily Mail)
But this obscenity is of no consequence, as long as the Trump family makes money. I remember when we used to have at least the appearance of principles...
The appearance of principles is no better than the outright hypocrisy to the people it affects. It only matters to the crowd the musical is playing for. Truth is, we all own part of this because we don’t really object.
Ultralight
10-18-18, 2:11pm
I am hawkish as all hell when it comes to freedom of the press and free speech. I think regime change is long overdue in Saudi Arabia. Maybe some American military muscle is needed.
Teacher Terry
10-18-18, 2:21pm
WE need to keep our nose out of other countries business. Nothing good could come out of overthrowing the Saudi government. It's one reason our deficit is so high.
Ultralight
10-18-18, 5:05pm
WE need to keep our nose out of other countries business. Nothing good could come out of overthrowing the Saudi government. It's one reason our deficit is so high.
Would you have said the same thing about Nazi Germany? Probably.
The Saudi Kingdom is a repressive, violent Islamic theocracy.
I get the feeling like Trump is up to his armpits in alligators with this thing.
Have to say WS that I love that description which is so much more graphic than "in hot water".:)
WE need to keep our nose out of other countries business. Nothing good could come out of overthrowing the Saudi government. It's one reason our deficit is so high.
It seems they made it our business when they torture-murdered an American permanent resident who worked for an American publisher. IMO, we should start disentangling from that toxic crew ASAP. As some pundit noted--they need us worse than we need them.
Our deficit is so high because of endless wars and repeated tax cuts, IMO.
Thought that you might find this article from the Washington Post interesting reading. I did. I hope that the Washington Post forgives my copying it this one time.
Source:https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/jamal-khashoggi-what-the-arab-world-needs-most-is-free-expression/2018/10/17/adfc8c44-d21d-11e8-8c22-fa2ef74bd6d6_story.html?utm_term=.404771395c84
By Jamal Khashoggi
October 17 at 7:52 PM
A note from Karen Attiah, Global Opinions editor
I received this column from Jamal Khashoggi’s translator and assistant the day after Jamal was reported missing in Istanbul. The Post held off publishing it because we hoped Jamal would come back to us so that he and I could edit it together. Now I have to accept: That is not going to happen. This is the last piece of his I will edit for The Post. This column perfectly captures his commitment and passion for freedom in the Arab world. A freedom he apparently gave his life for. I will be forever grateful he chose The Post as his final journalistic home one year ago and gave us the chance to work together.
I was recently online looking at the 2018 “Freedom in the World” report published by Freedom House and came to a grave realization. There is only one country in the Arab world that has been classified as “free.” That nation is Tunisia. Jordan, Morocco and Kuwait come second, with a classification of “partly free.” The rest of the countries in the Arab world are classified as “not free.”
As a result, Arabs living in these countries are either uninformed or misinformed. They are unable to adequately address, much less publicly discuss, matters that affect the region and their day-to-day lives. A state-run narrative dominates the public psyche, and while many do not believe it, a large majority of the population falls victim to this false narrative. Sadly, this situation is unlikely to change.
The Arab world was ripe with hope during the spring of 2011. Journalists, academics and the general population were brimming with expectations of a bright and free Arab society within their respective countries. They expected to be emancipated from the hegemony of their governments and the consistent interventions and censorship of information. These expectations were quickly shattered; these societies either fell back to the old status quo or faced even harsher conditions than before.
My dear friend, the prominent Saudi writer Saleh al-Shehi, wrote one of the most famous columns ever published in the Saudi press. He unfortunately is now serving an unwarranted five-year prison sentence for supposed comments contrary to the Saudi establishment. The Egyptian government’s seizure of the entire print run of a newspaper, al-Masry al Youm, did not enrage or provoke a reaction from colleagues. These actions no longer carry the consequence of a backlash from the international community. Instead, these actions may trigger condemnation quickly followed by silence.
As a result, Arab governments have been given free rein to continue silencing the media at an increasing rate. There was a time when journalists believed the Internet would liberate information from the censorship and control associated with print media. But these governments, whose very existence relies on the control of information, have aggressively blocked the Internet. They have also arrested local reporters and pressured advertisers to harm the revenue of specific publications.
[Read Khashoggi’s last column for The Post before his disappearance in Arabic]
There are a few oases that continue to embody the spirit of the Arab Spring. Qatar’s government continues to support international news coverage, in contrast to its neighbors’ efforts to uphold the control of information to support the “old Arab order.” Even in Tunisia and Kuwait, where the press is considered at least “partly free,” the media focuses on domestic issues but not issues faced by the greater Arab world. They are hesitant to provide a platform for journalists from Saudi Arabia, Egypt and Yemen. Even Lebanon, the Arab world’s crown jewel when it comes to press freedom, has fallen victim to the polarization and influence of pro-Iran Hezbollah.
The Arab world is facing its own version of an Iron Curtain, imposed not by external actors but through domestic forces vying for power. During the Cold War, Radio Free Europe, which grew over the years into a critical institution, played an important role in fostering and sustaining the hope of freedom. Arabs need something similar. In 1967, the New York Times and The Post took joint ownership of the International Herald Tribune newspaper, which went on to become a platform for voices from around the world.
My publication, The Post, has taken the initiative to translate many of my pieces and publish them in Arabic. For that, I am grateful. Arabs need to read in their own language so they can understand and discuss the various aspects and complications of democracy in the United States and the West. If an Egyptian reads an article exposing the actual cost of a construction project in Washington, then he or she would be able to better understand the implications of similar projects in his or her community.
The Arab world needs a modern version of the old transnational media so citizens can be informed about global events. More important, we need to provide a platform for Arab voices. We suffer from poverty, mismanagement and poor education. Through the creation of an independent international forum, isolated from the influence of nationalist governments spreading hate through propaganda, ordinary people in the Arab world would be able to address the structural problems their societies face.
Read more:
Read Jamal Khashoggi’s columns for The Washington Post
Hatice Cengiz: Please, President Trump, shed light on my fiance’s disappearance
The Post’s View: Why is the Trump administration cleaning up Saudi Arabia’s mess?
David Ignatius: MBS’s rampaging anger will not silence questions about Jamal Khashoggi
Manal al-Sharif: Jamal Khashoggi’s disappearance spreads fear worldwide, but we won’t be silenced
Teacher Terry
10-18-18, 7:41pm
We can’t be the worldwide police. Interfering in other countries causes wars which contributes to the deficit along with the tax cuts of course.
Williamsmith
10-18-18, 8:37pm
This incident is not unlike a lot of pursuits. The deeper you look the less you understand. I have seen reports from several different sources that Turkey’s intelligence community is very resourceful and typically keeps high level surveillance on foreign consulates, to the tune of bugging offices, residences and transportation. They also have inside “employees” reporting on the goings on directly to Turkey’s intelligence agency MIT. Bottom line is there is every reason to believe they understand and know exactly what occurred to Khashoggi. But will this information ever come to light?
Turkey and Saudi Arabia do not see eye to eye on many things. However, Turkey’s economy is in the tank and could use, shall we say a voluntary contribution from a rich Saudi government. Perhaps, this is the goose that laid the golden egg for Turkey.
Also, Saudi Arabia facilitates the buying of US debt through the use of US dollars for the purchase of oil. We print it, they buy up our debt to cover the newly printed money. There are more reasons the US does not want the truth about this incident to see the light of day. But here is where it becomes a sticky wicket.
What if.....US intelligence knew about the planned abduction and torture of Khashoggi and did nothing to thwart it or to warn Khashoggi. And just how far up the chain of command did that information travel. It would be quite an embarrassment for the administration.
As Mark Twain is quoted saying, “The reason we hold truth in such high esteem is because we have so little opportunity to get familiar with it.”
This isn't just a problem in the Arab world--journalists are being killed in Russia and elsewhere, and stifled around the world. Trump would like nothing more than to shut dissent down here. Khashoggi and others are martyrs for the truth.
This is terrifying:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia
This isn't just a problem in the Arab world--journalists are being killed in Russia and elsewhere, and stifled around the world. Trump would like nothing more than to shut dissent down here. Khashoggi and others are martyrs for the truth.
This is terrifying:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia
I agree. Investigative journalism has become a dangerous profession, and attacks on journalists have been praised by our own president.
The Guardian had a prescient headline story in August 2018: "Trump attacks on media raise threat of violence against reporters, UN experts warn."
https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/aug/02/donald-trump-un-media-press-freedom-journalist-danger
Just this week Trump praised Congressman Gianforte for an assault on a Guardian reporter.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2018/10/18/donald-trump-greg-gianforte-bodyslammed-reporter-my-kind-guy/1690729002/
Are we really that far away from a Khashoggi event happening here? I bet the Saudis were surprised at our "outrage" given the signals that were sent that it's not a big deal.
ApatheticNoMore
10-19-18, 10:50am
I agree. Investigative journalism has become a dangerous profession, and attacks on journalists have been praised by our own president.
become? Julian Assange is still imprisoned in the embassy as far as I know, bipartisian (as much Dem as anything) calls to kick him out of even that protection and asylum. Speaking of which, remember Manning's collateral murder video, which included the killing of reporters by the U.S. military.
There is no way Khashoggi is just an innocent journalist, it's too fishy. But yea the Saudi's are thugs, but then they were involved in the murder of some 2000 people (9-11) - and that's from the official account or as much of it as will ever be released, so why is the murder of one person shocking?
It seems to be to me if you are a journalists who questions the official narrative too much in the U.S., you don't keep your job, but that is different than losing your life. But it means you don't have much of a voice at that point much of the time. Of course some good journalism is still done.
Williamsmith
10-20-18, 9:25am
I wonder how long before the Saudis sign a purchase order for the new missile defense system they have been dragging their feet on. And Turkey will have proven just how valuable they are to the US by providing the means to force the Saudis to buy. The whole event is so revolting that the thought of who knew what before it happened and who did what after it happened frightens the begeebers out of me.
The fact that my country is stuck right in the midst of this because it simply won’t or can’t divest itself of a world economic power partner for fear of wrecking its own economy...disgusts me. When the USA went from an economic powerhouse founded on production to an economic global power based on consumption and debt.....we sold out our independence.
And now, what. If we cut ties with Saudi Arabia, we force them into an alliance with Russia and Iran...with China as a wild card. And Israel will be leaning hard on the US to remain allies with Saudi Arabia. What a mess. Live by the sword...die by the sword.
catherine
10-20-18, 10:28am
I wonder how long before the Saudis sign a purchase order for the new missile defense system they have been dragging their feet on. And Turkey will have proven just how valuable they are to the US by providing the means to force the Saudis to buy. The whole event is so revolting that the thought of who knew what before it happened and who did what after it happened frightens the begeebers out of me.
The fact that my country is stuck right in the midst of this because it simply won’t or can’t divest itself of a world economic power partner for fear of wrecking its own economy...disgusts me. When the USA went from an economic powerhouse founded on production to an economic global power based on consumption and debt.....we sold out our independence.
And now, what. If we cut ties with Saudi Arabia, we force them into an alliance with Russia and Iran...with China as a wild card. And Israel will be leaning hard on the US to remain allies with Saudi Arabia. What a mess. Live by the sword...die by the sword.
Well said, again.
ApatheticNoMore
10-20-18, 11:34am
Just this week Trump praised Congressman Gianforte for an assault on a Guardian reporter.
https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/...uy/1690729002/
Uniquely Trump, and bad, but equivalent weight to many other things going on, dissident perspectives (very legitimately so from the left and sometimes libertarian perspective) being dubbed Russian influenced - reading about the mid-century red scare recently, I myself could not come up with an argument how this wasn't some variant of that, the subsequent social media filtering of news which has only seemed to empower Fox and the Daily Mail (magical mystery algorithms favored mainstream right wing sources above all it seems), etc.. These attacks come from different "sides" than Trump's, but they are at least of equivalent weight.
Williamsmith
10-21-18, 5:16am
Trumps foreign policy incompetence may have just bit him hard. He may have stepped in it by appointing his son in law Jared Kushner as chief negotiator with the Saudis , specifically the Crowned Prince MbS. Kushner s inexperience and ameuteurish approach to the situation was to develop a relationship with the Prince which may have signaled to the Crowned Prince that the US would not retaliate in response to torture and murder of citizens abroad. There is an ugly rumour going around that Kushner could have shared US intelligence on certain “enemies” of Saudi Arabia and that Khashoggi might have turned into one of the targets based on that information. Even if it isn’t true, there is enough of an appearance of impropriety and enough of an outrage over the sheer ugliness of the whole event, that Trump may find his administration bogged down yet again by another “investigation” into Kushner and his doings with the Prince. It is an ugly optic that need not have occurred. Trumps apparent “patience” with the Saudis does not reflect well on his partnership with thugs and terrorists. The anti Trump faction has just been given great ammunition with which to attempt to remove him again. If the economy go sour, Trump may be stepping and fetching.
Teacher Terry
10-21-18, 2:07pm
WS, I hope you are right as this nightmare needs to end.
Williamsmith
10-21-18, 4:50pm
Things don’t seem to be improving for the White House even though the immigrant caravan is gobbling up much of the press coverage which Trump has got to be appreciating. Senator Rand Paul is calling for the Saudis to remove the Crowned Prince MbS and replace him with someone who is an ally not an enemy of the US. Paul doesn’t believe MbS didn’t know about the hit squad and neither does Senator Lindsey Graham.
To think that a group of 15-18 “rogues” would pull off a hit like this without the approval or even direct order from MbS is really stretching the realm of believability. What Trump might need to spend time on instead of stumping for other Republicans in the midterm.....is figuring out a way to save face and shield his son in law from some guilt by association with the Crowned Prince. It’s really troubling when you see how much the White House has tied its fortunes to the Saudi royal family. The entire Middle East foreign policy and the health of the US economy hinges on it.
At this point, there is more evidence that Saudi Arabia is a terrorist state than there is regarding Iran in that vain. The US seems to be on the wrong side of the spat between radical Islam. Trumps attempts at vilifying Iran seem to be seriously sidetracked. A split with Saudi Arabia would at least allow us to exorcise the 9-11 demons that have never been acknowledged.
The next bombshell could be Turkey’s Erdogan, who is promising to release information about the investigation into Khashoggis torture and murder and dismemberment. There’s no end in site especially since no one seems to know where Khashoggis body parts are located.
If Trump wriggles out of this without being scuffed up, if the midterms are solidly republican and if the economy keeps chugging along.....a lot of people will be astonished.
Williamsmith
10-23-18, 9:00am
On September 19, 1796 a letter was written to “friends and fellow-citizens.” It was published in the American Daily Advisor. The theme of the letter was an appeal to the country to stay loyal to its values by avoiding political dangers....of which foreign entanglements was the prime example. Specifically, the letter advised the U.S. to “avoid long term friendly relations or rivalries pointing out that such relationships cloud the government’s judgement and jeopardizes moral foreign policy.
The letter further describes those who refuse to heed this warning as subsequent “tools and dupes” of other nations; eventually surrendering U.S. interests to other countries. The letter extols the virtue of “free trade” with all nations and warns against treaties, trade wars and tariffs. In a nutshell, it calls out the Trump Administration and its faults, 222 years before it ever existed. It was George Washington’s farewell address.
The ugliness and barbarism of the Khashoggi torture, murder and disposal of his corpse by the Saudi government in a planned and calculated mission by ruthless representatives of the Crowned Prince, highlights the wisdom of Washington’s appeal to shun entanglements with foreign nations. Trump is now a tool and dupe of the Saudis. He can’t react in the moral way. As a enabler of the war in Yemen where a campaign to starve the population is being played out and civilian targets have been bombed by weapons sold to the Saudis .....Trump is as culpable as the Crowned Prince.
With a threat to increase oil oil prices to as much as $400 a barrel.....the Saudis have Trump over a barrel. Especially, since Trump has planned to tighten the screws on Iran’s ability to sell oil to the global market. He needs the Saudis to make up for that. Any lack of cooperation would send the US economy in a tailspin.
Oh and there is that issue of the massive sale of arms and missile protection. Trump can’t afford for the CEOs of Raytheon, Lockheed Martin and Bowing to be without their bonuses and stock options. Nor can he take a hit in the unemployment numbers.
The whole thing is poised to unravel on him. With Turkey’s president demanding they hold the trial of the 18 Saudis that are “detained”, another policy crisis is morphing off the murder. Anyway, who lets the prime suspect carrying out the investigation?
Meantime at home, the caravan continues. If the military shows up at the border to halt them, it will be another day of ugly “optics” for Trump.
catherine
10-23-18, 9:30am
With a threat to increase oil oil prices to as much as $400 a barrel.....the Saudis have Trump over a barrel. Especially, since Trump has planned to tighten the screws on Iran’s ability to sell oil to the global market. He needs the Saudis to make up for that. Any lack of cooperation would send the US economy in a tailspin.
Gosh, your post strengthens my resolve to reduce my personal dependence on oil. I know I'm one little grain of sand on an infinite beach, but I am complicit with Trump if I am one of those who has to play footsies with nations who, as you say, have us over a barrel. Our lives are driven by our need for what the Middle East has--even though we really don't get that much oil from them. Our home-grown industrial alternatives: more offshore drilling, pipelines from Canada, and fracking are not acceptable to me either, which leaves me with renewable energy as the only option.
Next summer we are re-roofing our place (there are a couple of leaks and it's really a patchwork quilt of metal up there) and I've told him that I want go solar. It's a small place--in the summer we will probably do pretty well with reducing our on-grid consumption, but we'll see. I do drive a car, so I'm entangled in that aspect of oil consumption. And of course there's the ubiquitous plastic that is almost impossible to get away from.
Nonetheless, I am taking this incident and the way it's being handled personally in a way.
With a threat to increase oil oil prices to as much as $400 a barrel.....the Saudis have Trump over a barrel.
Doubtful. From what I’m reading, this is generally considered to be an empty threat. While there might be a short-term impact, the unlikelihood of other producers cooperating and the Saudi’s diminished foreign currency reserves mitigate against a 1973-style crisis.
JaneV2.0
10-23-18, 10:30am
This story gets uglier by the moment. Khashoggi seemed completely innocuous to me-just a hardworking journalist--though apparently the radical right is stirring up all kinds of vicious rumors about him now that their pals have slaughtered him. I've heard reports there's a phone trail, including one or more calls to the US. Time will tell.
ToomuchStuff
10-23-18, 11:01am
2557
Williamsmith
10-23-18, 11:58am
Doubtful. From what I’m reading, this is generally considered to be an empty threat. While there might be a short-term impact, the unlikelihood of other producers cooperating and the Saudi’s diminished foreign currency reserves mitigate against a 1973-style crisis.
I have to disagree with your poo pooing of the seriousness of the threat. And I hope lawmakers and policy makers in DC don’t share your lack of concern.
I am certain that contingency plans are in place for responses to the Saudis turning off the spigot. Those include the various gas and oil producers returning to the capped fracking sites of the Marcellus to provide supplemental liquid gas and gas used to make poly plastic pellets for a variety of purposes. This is a resource that will certainly outlive me and probably my kids life.
The Saudi Energy Minister just reminded the world that they are the “Central Bank of the Oil Market” keeping supply and demand in balance. The Saudis could easily create supply disruptions that would create enough pain for a very impatient American consumer without going so far as even $200 a barrel oil. There position clearly puts them in the position of extorting Trump into withholding any retaliatory policy punishments such as economic sanctions or military sales freezes. They can continue to chase and murder other people who offend them without any worry of consequences from the US.
Saudi Arabia has been flirting with Russia. An alliance with Russia could result in the inflict more pain when acting in concert to choke off oil to the US.
I dont take all these possibilities lightly. Even if it doesn’t come to fruition, the US should immediately brainstorm a gradual lessening of reliance on foreign oil. Including new technologies, wind, solar, natural gas and yes......we should be building nuclear plants without a ten year approval start up timeline.
Tell the Middle East to go fornicate with themselves.
Teacher Terry
10-23-18, 12:10pm
Trump was never serious about punishing the Saudi ‘s. He loves murderers and dictators. He wants to be a dictator and his son may have been involved with providing the Saudi’s with a hit list.
I have to disagree with your poo pooing of the seriousness of the threat. And I hope lawmakers and policy makers in DC don’t share your lack of concern.
At least right now, the people who put their money where their prognostications are in the futures markets seem to share my lack of concern.
Williamsmith
10-23-18, 3:58pm
At least right now, the people who put their money where their prognostications are in the futures markets seem to share my lack of concern.
Did you really just quote the traders in the stock exchange as a valid measurement of stability in global politics? My God, you are farther gone than I thought! :help:
Did you really just quote the traders in the stock exchange as a valid measurement of stability in global politics? My God, you are farther gone than I thought! :help:
You think futures contracts are traded on a stock exchange? That’s adorable!
But really, futures markets do a pretty decent job of consolidating the available information into short term market forecasts. I would trust the markets’ collective price information over predictions by, say, the Central Intelligence Agency, the Department of Energy or your average blogger.
Williamsmith
10-23-18, 5:03pm
Did you just call me adorable? Pm me, maybe we can meet.....!Splat!
Did you just call me adorable? Pm me, maybe we can meet.....!Splat!
Be very wary if he asks if you want to come over and watch Netflix and chill.
Be very wary if he asks if you want to come over and watch Netflix and chill.
I won’t make that mistake again.
Williamsmith
10-24-18, 8:36am
It was inevitable. Iran, facing the Nov. 4 start up of additional sanctions by Trump designed to cripple their oil economy to the point of bargaining over their nuclear developments, weighed in about the Khashoggi hit.
President Rouhani charged that the Saudis would not have committed such a blantant and boldly heinous crime without the protection of the US government. After that comment he turned to what many believe gave the Saudis the audacity to commit an organized murder....the Yemen War subsidized by US weaponry which is responsible for the death and injury of some 16,000 civilians according to the United Nations.
Where is the body of Khashoggi? The Saudis have detained 18 principle actors, yet no report of the recovery of his body. The Turks have plenty of investigative resources and our own Director Of Central Intelligence is in Turkey but no body. A body would provide the best evidence of what happened. No body.
Meantime, Trump has pulled out of the INF treaty with Russia signaling the beginning of a new public arms race.
And perhaps the most troubling development yesterday. In a press gathering at the White House Oval Office the President when commenting on the Khashoggi murder spent a little too much time bemoaning the fact that the cover up by the Saudis was horribly botched. It made one wonder if he wasn’t angered more that they had screwed up the cover up than that they had actually murdered Khashoggi in the first place. Khashoggi, was a reporter for the Washington Post which Trump despises and a critic of a country which Trump is conducting billions of dollars of arms transactions with and has the ability to leverage economic sanctions against Iran in the form of increased oil production to offset the global embargo of Iranian oil.
Then he commented on the foolishness of terminating a relationship with the Saudis because of the economic impact it would have on our country. So, let me get this straight, my comfort relies on doing business with a country that Lies, murders, tortures, dismembers, disposes of bodies, bombs civilians, beheads dissenters, crucifies their headless bodies for display and then mocks the rest of the world because they are rich enough to hold the fortunes of a global economy in their hands like a central bank?
And the caravan plods onward to the border.
It ...
And perhaps the most troubling development yesterday. In a press gathering at the White House Oval Office the President when commenting on the Khashoggi murder spent a little too much time bemoaning the fact that the cover up by the Saudis was horribly botched. It made one wonder if he wasn’t angered more that they had screwed up the cover up than that they had actually murdered Khashoggi in the first place. Khashoggi, was a reporter for the Washington Post which Trump despises and a critic of a country which Trump is conducting billions of dollars of arms transactions with and has the ability to leverage economic sanctions against Iran in the form of increased oil production to offset the global embargo of Iranian oil.
...
You beat me to it. I find myself yelling obscenities at the screen...You'd think I'd be used to his insane pronouncements by now, but that one was appalling even for him. I guess he feels the deed shouldn't have been left to amateurs; he and his henchmen could undoubtedly have done better. My God.
Williamsmith
10-24-18, 9:33am
This was the most clear and concise statement to date that I have seen as to why we should cut ties with the Saudis and why Trump won’t. The first five minutes State the case quite intelligently: US Rep. Tulsi Gabbard (D) Hawaii, sits on the House Foreign Affairs Committee. On Fox News :
https://www.newsmax.com/politics/tulsigabbard-saudiarabia-jamalkhashoggi-rep/2018/10/21/id/887259/
Teacher Terry
10-24-18, 11:21am
WS, the whole thing is disgusting! All trump cares about is doing a better cover up. The Saudi’s are not letting the journalists son leave the country. Hope he survives.
Williamsmith
10-25-18, 7:43am
Here’s a news flash! The Saudi Public Prosecutor has announced that after interrogating the “rogue” group....the act was “premeditated!” Now that that’s decided.....they can probably recover the body.
I see heads being lopped off in the near future.
Ultralight
10-25-18, 7:46am
Here’s a news flash! The Saudi Public Prosecutor has announced that after interrogating the “rogue” group....the act was “premeditated!” Now that that’s decided.....they can probably recover the body.
I see heads being lopped off in the near future.
I am so hawkish about the Saudis. I think we need to teach them a lesson, a certain display of power. And say: "It could be a lot worse. Wouldn't want that, would we? Better straighten up."
I am so hawkish about the Saudis. I think we need to teach them a lesson, a certain display of power. And say: "It could be a lot worse. Wouldn't want that, would we? Better straighten up."
Unfortunately I don't see that happening. Saudi citizens attacked us on 9/11 and there was no reprisal towards Saudi Arabia. Instead, propaganda started to push Americans into attacking Iraq and Afghanistan. I remember asking a right-wing co-worker, why them? His answer: It doesn't matter which country as long as it's one of the ones in the Middle East. :(
Saudi oil, like North Korea's nuclear weapons, make them attack-proof unless we want to start WWIII.
Williamsmith
10-25-18, 8:10am
I am so hawkish about the Saudis. I think we need to teach them a lesson, a certain display of power. And say: "It could be a lot worse. Wouldn't want that, would we? Better straighten up."
UL...that’s not an option. The various Chief Executive Officers of the military industrial complex would suffer greatly. Raytheon’s Thomas Kennedy would have trouble justifying his $5 million/ yr Cash and bonus salary.....his 10 million annual stock and options, his half million in other compensation and that doesn’t include his pension increases and deferred compensation earnings. We can tolerate a botched murder now and then. After all we are making bombs to drop on the heads of innocent civilians in Yemen, supporting a blockade which starving the rest of the population. ....what’s the big deal about a dead journalist now and then? They will be a little more careful next time to execute the cover up properly.
Ultralight
10-25-18, 8:11am
When I think of Saudi Arabia I think they embody the antithesis of civil liberty.
And it @#$%ing pisses me off!
Williamsmith
10-30-18, 4:08am
It should be clear by now that the Trump administration is appreciative of the events that have distracted the main news away from the Khashoggi torture, murder, dismemberment and disposal. And his warning of severe consequences is a joke. Except his inaction is a sign for Saudi terrorists to feel empowered and will result in further incidents like this.
Hatice Cengiz, Khashoggi’s fiancé, should be remembered. She called on Trump to take appropriate measures to bring Khashoggis murderers to justice as well, those who ordered his murder. She must be sad that even though the whereabouts of his body is known, it hasn’t been recovered for proper burial.
I wonder what mental gymnastics some Americans are doing to justify condoning Trumps apparent approval of terrorism as long as its reality is properly covered up. It will be telling to see just how far down the rabbit hole the nation has gone when the voting begins November 6th. Whatever “nationalism” means to Trump, part of it seems to be casting aside all morality and right thinking for pure capitalism and tossing humans under the bus of financial progress.
Williamsmith
11-1-18, 8:22am
More bad news for Trump in his hometown:
https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/two-saudi-sisters-deaths-nyc-waterfront
A report on how the Khashoggi incident is just the tip of the iceberg:
https://www.yahoo.com/news/saudi-dissidents-fear-long-arm-state-khashoggi-murder-114854780.html
I am sure the Consulate General Of Saudi Arabia in New York City will be interested in the case as it develops. I wouldn’t want to be the head of the Detectives. But a good book will probably result.
Teacher Terry
11-1-18, 12:32pm
Really sad about the sisters. Interesting article that the Saudi’s are trying to lure people back so they can kill them.
With a threat to increase oil oil prices to as much as $400 a barrel.....the Saudis have Trump over a barrel. Especially, since Trump has planned to tighten the screws on Iran’s ability to sell oil to the global market. He needs the Saudis to make up for that. Any lack of cooperation would send the US economy in a tailspin.
.
I see oil is trading at $59.
Williamsmith
11-26-18, 6:33am
I see Trump has figured a way for the Khashoggi incident to be a windfall for us in America, Land of the Great Again. In the ramp up to the long expected “Iran Sanctions”, OPEC and even Russia increased the oil output to make up for the loss of Iran’s oil output. And then at the last minute, Trump waived the sales to seven of the most important buyers of Iranian Oil. This created a glut of oil which is now being seen at the pumps.
I bought gasoline at $2.09 per gallon in the heart of the rust belt today. And by the way, the Trump base is strong at the local indoor flea market.
It seems Trump could continue to blackmail Saudi Arabia over the Khashoggi murder for quite some time seeing as how he now holds the keys to the Crowned princes survival in his intelligence file. Remember this every time you fill up at the pumps and thank Mr. Khashoggi for the economic boost to your bank account.
And now, I think I will go shoot me a deer.
So he’s gone from being over a barrel to the wind behind a windfall? What a mastermind!
Teacher Terry
11-26-18, 11:53am
No decrease in gas prices on the West coast.
No decrease in gas prices on the West coast.$2.229 locally today. But we're a mostly red state that resists letting our government think of us as a profit center.
It’s around $2.25 here. Ethanol free 90 octane is $2.89. It’s been dropping, and it’s the lowest it’s been in a while.
$4.09 for regular, as of last night. $2.84/gallon at the nearest Costco on the mainland.
Gas here has to be shipped in by barge, which adds about $1/gallon extra usually.
Williamsmith
11-26-18, 7:50pm
So he’s gone from being over a barrel to the wind behind a windfall? What a mastermind!
yes, he’s a gall dang genius!
catherine
11-26-18, 7:55pm
$2.229 locally today. But we're a mostly red state that resists letting our government think of us as a profit center.
GasBuddy is quoting $2.19 near me.
And we're blue. Last time taxes were raised was under Christie's administration.
GasBuddy is quoting $2.19 near me.
And we're blue. Last time taxes were raised was under Christie's administration.I thought you were talking about Vermont until you mentioned Christie. It's good to see that even though New Jersey is in the top 10 least tax friendly states, they don't overtax your fuel if you want to escape. ;)
Williamsmith
11-26-18, 8:04pm
$2.229 locally today. But we're a mostly red state that resists letting our government think of us as a profit center.
Does your mostly red state resist letting General Motors think of you as a profit center also? All those manufacturing jobs going to Mexicans ...... Trump is back to being an idiot.
Does your mostly red state resist letting General Motors think of you as a profit center also? All those manufacturing jobs going to Mexicans ...... Trump is back to being an idiot.
GM has been abandoning Ohio for years, in the 60's and 70's they made Camaro's in a little town 20 minutes from me and then moved out in the early 80's. I think they considered it a cost center. It's probably because I've never owned a GM product.
Ultralight
11-26-18, 8:28pm
Williamsmith: I ask this seriously. Are you moving to the left politically? Seems like you are...
catherine
11-26-18, 9:49pm
I thought you were talking about Vermont until you mentioned Christie. It's good to see that even though New Jersey is in the top 10 least tax friendly states, they don't overtax your fuel if you want to escape. ;)
Great point, Alan!
As Bill Murray said in Caddyshack, I've got that going for me, which is nice. ;)
Teacher Terry
11-27-18, 12:23am
WS: back to being a idiot? The founding fathers are rolling in their graves that this moron is in charge.
Williamsmith
11-27-18, 9:55am
Williamsmith: I ask this seriously. Are you moving to the left politically? Seems like you are...
The political right has been infiltrated by self professed “conservatives” which have nothing to do with being politically right. I am for individual liberty. I am for a political system that protects those rights necessarily by the use of force. Which makes me decidedly not left.
But I do not suffer corporate anarchists who masquerade as “capitalists” so they can claim the benefit of individual freedom. When in fact, they are nothing but gangs and bullies. So I support a government that forces them to give back individual freedoms to the people they oppress.
This is the proper use of government....one which protects individual rights and does not violate those rights. I support the return of the country to individual liberty. Not the current form of bastardized modern liberalism, progressivism or conservatism that has trampled all over individual rights in the name of corporate greed, government overreach, military industrialization, or majority rule.
When corporations make business about eliminating competition instead of engaging in competition.....it needs forced to terminate the violation of individual rights. Because corporations are not individuals and are more complex in their hierarchy, they do not value human rights rather they value profits. Therefore I do not support privatization of government as might a tea partier. I am for fair competition and corporate responsibility under pain of punishment by the government which is the proper function of government.....protection of individual rights.
So sayeth, William Smith.
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