View Full Version : Trump Is Right About One Thing In My Book....
gimmethesimplelife
10-20-18, 11:02am
Yes, I did post that and no, there is no snark here.
Trump recently made a statement that I could not agree more with. Drumroll please......His statement was the this is a very scary time for young men. I could not agree more with this - Trump was referring I believe to the potential of false accusations that young men face today, especially on college campuses. I'm not suddenly going radical and batting for the other team as it were but on this one issue, I believe he is right and even though I usually can't handle hearing him speak for more than a minute or two, this time he's right.
What do you'all think? Rob
ApatheticNoMore
10-20-18, 11:08am
The potential certainly exists for accusations without proof to become a bullying or mobbing tactic.
But I don't know of all dangers going through life I don't know that it's uniquely significant.
catherine
10-20-18, 11:12am
This is the type of situation where when one group of people finally is empowered to speak the truth and have a chance of being heard, the pendulum may swing a little at the expense of another group. I agree that women may now be able to accuse men of violent sexual behavior, and they may be telling the truth, or they may be telling a lie. The environment may be ripe for people actually paying attention and trying to bring justice (finally) to these types of acts. Men, frankly, have been getting away with aggressive, entitled acts of violence and intimidation scot-free for millennia and still are, all across the globe.
I hear Bannon is freaking out that women will be ringing the death knell for patriarchy. Wouldn't it be nice if we could all just treat each other truthfully and respectfully, without a "revolution." But, often when it comes to correcting power struggles, the pendulum swings the other way for a while. So, if it's a scary time for young men, maybe their parents should teach them how to best reduce the chances they'll be wrongly accused and even arrested unjustly. Just like black parents have to teach their children.
iris lilies
10-20-18, 11:15am
Yes, I did post that and no, there is no snark here.
Trump recently made a statement that I could not agree more with. Drumroll please......His statement was the this is a very scary time for young men. I could not agree more with this - Trump was referring I believe to the potential of false accusations that young men face today, especially on college campuses. I'm not suddenly going radical and batting for the other team as it were but on this one issue, I believe he is right and even though I usually can't handle hearing him speak for more than a minute or two, this time he's right.
What do you'all think? Rob
What do I think? I think you have 3 oddly focused hobby horses, and this is one of them.
Teacher Terry
10-20-18, 11:21am
I have 3 grown sons and the idea that this is a scary time for men is ridiculous! Unfortunately, it’s been a scary time for black men for a long time due to racism and some corrupt cops. Women have been abused by men forever and getting away with it.
Ultralight
10-20-18, 11:24am
This is the type of situation where when one group of people finally is empowered to speak the truth and have a chance of being heard, the pendulum may swing a little at the expense of another group.
How do you know they are speaking the truth? Also: What prevented them from speaking up during the past 30 or 40 years?
The "expense of another group" is the language of revolution. Like: "Wanna make an omelette? Gotta break some eggs!" Shortly after than comes retribution.
I agree that women may now be able to accuse men of violent sexual behavior, and they may be telling the truth, or they may be telling a lie. The environment may be ripe for people actually paying attention and trying to bring justice (finally) to these types of acts.
What about due process?
Men, frankly, have been getting away with aggressive, entitled acts of violence and intimidation scot-free for millennia and still are, all across the globe.
The across the globe thing is interesting. Comparing the sexual assault problems in America to various other nations ought to be pretty dang illuminating. See how women are treated Somalia or Saudi Arabia.
So, if it's a scary time for young men, maybe their parents should teach them how to best reduce the chances they'll be wrongly accused and even arrested unjustly.
Describe what this would look like.
Maybe men will now need to think about some of the things women have had to worry about. Am I alone with this person I do not know? Am I drinking too much? Am I flirting too much so that my intentions could be misinterpreted? Etc.
catherine
10-20-18, 11:36am
How do you know they are speaking the truth? Also: What prevented them from speaking up during the past 30 or 40 years? You don't know, of course. Many legal situations require weighing evidence, and in these types of cases, evidence is scant. It becomes a he-said/she-said. And I'm not necessarily referring to recent events, but there are many psychological reasons abused women don't speak up. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, or that the women gave consent.
The "expense of another group" is the language of revolution. Like: "Wanna make an omelette? Gotta break some eggs!" Shortly after than comes retribution. I think historically, that's what happens. If people are oppressed too long, they become reactionary. I don't subscribe to that model--I prefer reason and respect in every situation, but look at history.
What about due process? Of course due process must be adhered to. I'm sure that's all women want--a fair hearing and assurance they will be taken seriously.
The across the globe thing is interesting. Comparing the sexual assault problems in America to various other nations ought to be pretty dang illuminating. See how women are treated Somalia or Saudi Arabia. That's what I'm saying. Maybe there's no genital mutilation in the US, but doesn't mean that women haven't been repressed/abused in many other socially-accepted ways.
Describe what this would look like.
Parents would teach their sons that respect for women is paramount, and fathers should model that respect towards their mothers. That's #1. I'm with Terry--I have 3 sons and I can't imagine my sons being disrespectful in any way.
Ultralight
10-20-18, 11:40am
Maybe men will now need to think about some of the things women have had to worry about.
Like I said: Retribution and revenge. Punish the son for the sins of the father.
Ultralight
10-20-18, 11:43am
Parents would teach their sons that respect for women is paramount, and fathers should model that respect towards their mothers.
I agree with this!
When I was about 13 my mom sat me down and said: "Be very careful about being alone with the girls around here -- girls in general, really. They can say something happened that didn't and you could get in very big trouble. Sometimes girls lie. So you need to be cautious. If there is a group of you, guys and gals, that is probably okay."
Thoughts on this approach?
Teacher Terry
10-20-18, 11:56am
That was good advice. I taught my sons to never struck a woman no matter if they were hitting them. 2 black girls started beating up one of my sons for fun during shop class and the male teacher was afraid of them and did nothing. These girls made a habit of this and picked different boys. My son complained to the dean and we thought it was handled until we found out after they did it to another boy that there had been no punishment. I went to the dean and demanded action. He called the girls parents who were appalled. They took care of it and it never happened again. My son never hit the girls back.
JaneV2.0
10-20-18, 12:00pm
Steve Bannon is a known wifebeater (and a disgusting excuse for a human being) who only avoided consequences because he intimidated his ex into recanting. The only currently scary situation for a young man who doesn't assault women is that they may have to share some of their privilege.
On the one large gun forum I’ve been a member of since 2011, there are a large number of guys who say they will not talk to women in the office unless it is directly related to work and even then they keep it to a minimum. Much prefer email, which allows them to have a record of communications.
They also report vindictive women in their offices who somewhat openly talk of doing whatever they can do get men in trouble or fired for sexual harassment for no other reason that they dislike the men in questions. Now, some of this is beryl likely to be exaggeration, etc., but I will say I have worked with some very vindictive women in the past, so I can’t totally dismiss these supposed events.
gimmethesimplelife
10-20-18, 12:44pm
What do I think? I think you have 3 oddly focused hobby horses, and this is one of them.We all have our pet causes, IL, no? I
'm just more vocal about mine that most is my take. YMMV here, I get that. And this is one of my "hobby horses" (funky way to phrase it, I may actually use this phrase going forward is that's cool?) - I'll give you that. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-20-18, 12:49pm
On the one large gun forum I’ve been a member of since 2011, there are a large number of guys who say they will not talk to women in the office unless it is directly related to work and even then they keep it to a minimum. Much prefer email, which allows them to have a record of communications.
They also report vindictive women in their offices who somewhat openly talk of doing whatever they can do get men in trouble or fired for sexual harassment for no other reason that they dislike the men in questions. Now, some of this is beryl likely to be exaggeration, etc., but I will say I have worked with some very vindictive women in the past, so I can’t totally dismiss these supposed events.Thank You, Tradd…..this is the kind of thing I am getting at, your description above of men avoiding women as much as possible in the workplace due to risk/fear/financial loss/risk of work until death and you also give reasons why such is occurring. BRAVO!
Please let the record state that unlike some men in men's rights groups, I don't believe all women are like this. No, I really don't and I know women I'd trust with my life not to act this way. However, let the record state that I have also run across the type of women you are referring to above, Tradd, and yes, also some men (to put it mildly) who are real pieces of work, too. Rob
Trump recently made a statement that I could not agree more with. Drumroll please......His statement was the this is a very scary time for young men. b
Oh please. From Trump's mouth, these words are aimed directly at his fascist nationalist misogynist supporters. For shame for falling for it.
We are seeing the patriarchy struggle with today's younger generations seeing it clearly for what it is. This "scary time for young men" is hopefully the last death struggle of millennia of oppression.
Get with the program.
gimmethesimplelife
10-20-18, 12:51pm
That was good advice. I taught my sons to never struck a woman no matter if they were hitting them. 2 black girls started beating up one of my sons for fun during shop class and the male teacher was afraid of them and did nothing. These girls made a habit of this and picked different boys. My son complained to the dean and we thought it was handled until we found out after they did it to another boy that there had been no punishment. I went to the dean and demanded action. He called the girls parents who were appalled. They took care of it and it never happened again. My son never hit the girls back.TT, I'm just glad that the girl's parents were notified.....imagine the life lessons these girls learn regarding how to treat men the remainder of their lives if nothing is done? At least something was done in this case.....unfortunately not in every case is something done. And I agree that a man should never hit a woman. Rob
Please let the record state that unlike some men in men's rights groups, I don't believe all women are like this.
Well, that's just mighty white of you.
gimmethesimplelife
10-20-18, 1:00pm
Parents would teach their sons that respect for women is paramount, and fathers should model that respect towards their mothers. That's #1. I'm with Terry--I have 3 sons and I can't imagine my sons being disrespectful in any way.I have a problem with what you have posted, here, Cathy. To be clear, I don't disagree with you.....respect for women is important, and young men and men in general should be displaying this quality and possessing it to begin with period. Granted and given.
So where is my problem, you ask? Fair question. Respect is a two way street. Women ALSO need to be possessing and displaying respect for men PERIOD. Now if a man is a jerk or is being threatening or is persisting after a rejection or is crossing the line in some legal/sexual/predatory way, yes, ditch the respect. I'd agree with this but I'd also say that if a woman treats a man in the same way, same thing....auto ditch the respect for women and it becomes all about survival (I don't mean so much physical survival but financial and reputational survival). My point? Women need to have respect for men as much as men need to have respect for women. This is a two way street and until it can be a two way street with women on board with this concept, there really can be no true equality period. Just a mirage with no real substance nor meaning.
So to be clear, Cathy, I don't disagree with you, I just added more layers to the issue. And added a (gay) male perspective. And an interesting side note: Something funky about the men's rights movement is that a few of the key players (certainly not all by any means) are indeed gay men. I find that interesting, I really do, as gay men are going to overall - yes, with exceptions - have different levels of involvement/interactions with women overall than straight men would tend to. Just interesting is my take. Rob
Ultralight
10-20-18, 1:01pm
Steve Bannon is a known wifebeater (and a disgusting excuse for a human being) who only avoided consequences because he intimidated his ex into recanting. The only currently scary situation for a young man who doesn't assault women is that they may have to share some of their privilege.
How is it "known" that Bannon is a wifebeater? Is there video footage? A conviction by a jury of his peers? An admission from his own mouth. Do tell.
Let the record show I disagree profoundly with Bannon politically and culturally.
What sort of privileges do men in the US have that women don't have? Please enumerate.
gimmethesimplelife
10-20-18, 1:02pm
Well, that's just mighty white of you.Given that I (mostly) interact overall with those of different skin tones than mine as I go through life, your statement here is confusing. Whatever, life goes on in the 85006 as it does everywhere else, too. Rob
Thank You, Tradd…..this is the kind of thing I am getting at, your description above of men avoiding women as much as possible in the workplace due to risk/fear/financial loss/risk of work until death and you also give reasons why such is occurring. BRAVO!
Please let the record state that unlike some men in men's rights groups, I don't believe all women are like this. No, I really don't and I know women I'd trust with my life not to act this way. However, let the record state that I have also run across the type of women you are referring to above, Tradd, and yes, also some men (to put it mildly) who are real pieces of work, too. Rob
Wow, Rob actually agreeing with something I posted. Dang! :D
Frankly, I prefer to work with men than women. I am very direct with a potty mouth and I’m also very sarcastic. The women frequently seem to play games and I hate that. The men say something stupid and I can call them out on it without any “woe is me” victim crap.
gimmethesimplelife
10-20-18, 1:06pm
Oh please. From Trump's mouth, these words are aimed directly at his fascist nationalist misogynist supporters. For shame for falling for it.
We are seeing the patriarchy struggle with today's younger generations seeing it clearly for what it is. This "scary time for young men" is hopefully the last death struggle of millennia of oppression.
Get with the program.Even if Trump's words here were as you say aimed directly as his "fascist nationalist misogynist" supporters - I still agree with his words this one time, on this one issue, anyway. And I'm light years away from being a Trump supporter as I'm sure all who read this forum gather by now and have long since gathered. But in my book he's right here and I'm able to grant him some kind words as he - on this one issue - has earned them as far as I am concerned. Now about all other isssues……….but that's for many other threads and not this one. Rob
Ultralight
10-20-18, 1:08pm
On the one large gun forum I’ve been a member of since 2011, there are a large number of guys who say they will not talk to women in the office unless it is directly related to work and even then they keep it to a minimum. Much prefer email, which allows them to have a record of communications.
They also report vindictive women in their offices who somewhat openly talk of doing whatever they can do get men in trouble or fired for sexual harassment for no other reason that they dislike the men in questions. Now, some of this is beryl likely to be exaggeration, etc., but I will say I have worked with some very vindictive women in the past, so I can’t totally dismiss these supposed events.
At my work, since we are in a basement, we often take walks outside -- to get coffee or discuss a work related issue or idea. I have had female colleagues come to me and ask to go on a walk to talk about work ideas one-on-one. I am hesitant to do so, not because I think they would falsely accuse me but because I worry that someone else in the building (like on floors 1-3) might see me with a female colleague and then spread a rumor or someone might get the wrong idea.
Female colleagues have suggested I ask other female colleagues (ones in different departments) out on dates. I tell them I would never date anyone from work, ever. Too risky. I say: "Don't get your honey where you make your money!"
My experience has been the opposite of Tradd's. I have seen a lot of inappropriate behavior and nothing done about it. Some examples, all boss to subordinate:
"I want you to wear a dress on moving day and I'm going to stand next to you."
Tried to take a photo down her shirt.
Employee 1 says her computer monitor is jiggling post-move. Boss asks Employee 2 "Are you jiggling?" She says, "Mine isn't." Boss looks at her with a leer and says, "I'm not talking about your monitor."
"You're hot."
"It says on the bathroom wall you're easy."
In the Yankee swap " Pull six for the sex toy."
Came up behind her and started pushing her while she was sitting in her wheeled chair around the office.
Referred to another employee as "the little girl with the big ass".
CEO kissed young female in front of everyone.
Older unattractive women were pushed out to make room for eye candy. HR was run by a former airline stewardess. So glad I am at a different job now. Though it has its own issues with bigoted behavior I am personally in a better place.
Ultralight
10-20-18, 1:12pm
A black woman I know thinks that straight white women are the most privileged members of American society. She says that supporters of Dr. Ford think that white women should be "automatically believed" when they accuse a man of sexual assault. She also thinks this is dangerous and likens it to an era when black men would be accused of things by white women. And you know how that often ended for black men.
Ultralight
10-20-18, 1:14pm
My experience has been the opposite of Tradd's. I have seen a lot of inappropriate behavior and nothing done about it. Some examples, all boss to subordinate:
"I want you to wear a dress on moving day and I'm going to stand next to you."
Tried to take a photo down her shirt.
Employee 1 says her computer monitor is jiggling post-move. Boss asks Employee 2 "Are you jiggling?" She says, "Mine isn't." Boss looks at her with a leer and says, "I'm not talking about your monitor."
"You're hot."
"It says on the bathroom wall you're easy."
In the Yankee swap " Pull six for the sex toy."
Came up behind her and started pushing her while she was sitting in her wheeled chair around the office.
Referred to another employee as "the little girl with the big ass".
CEO kissed young female in front of everyone.
Older unattractive women were pushed out to make room for eye candy. HR was run by a former airline stewardess. So glad I am at a different job now. Though it has its own issues with bigoted behavior I am personally in a better place.
You documented all this, you went all the way up the line and reported this to everyone's superiors, and you went to an employment trial lawyer too and absolutely nothing was done! Man, that is crazy!
Given that I (mostly) interact overall with those of different skin tones than mine as I go through life, your statement here is confusing. Whatever, life goes on in the 85006 as it does everywhere else, too. Rob
The expression has more of a derivation from privilege, colonialist oppression and patriarchy. And not-so-much skin color...
ApatheticNoMore
10-20-18, 1:18pm
On the one large gun forum I’ve been a member of since 2011, there are a large number of guys who say they will not talk to women in the office unless it is directly related to work and even then they keep it to a minimum. Much prefer email, which allows them to have a record of communications.
funny I talk to men and women in the office for precisely that reason, because I learned by being bullied out of a job it is best to pretend to be everyone's friend, least likely of being a target of bullying that way (some of the reason I kind of avoided some people at the last job is I picked up threat signals from them. My instincts turned out to be right there, but avoidance wasn't the right approach to that danger).
So I suppose this is how it is now:
ANM making sure to socialize with everyone so she doesn't lose her job: [some pointless small talk]
hypothetical man in the office scared of accusation making sure not to socialize so as not to lose his job: [doesn't answer]
:laff:
Almost nothing is I do at the office at this point has any other motive but keeping my job (well sometimes I just have time to kill, but I prefer to quietly read the news in that case mostly - I'm an introvert's introvert when you get down to it, but I can pretend otherwise). So if I socialize there, yea that too is ultimately about keeping my job. They think they are denying us their precious socializing (I suppose they also imagine we want their sex - with how delusional men can be), but we're too just playing the survival game of keeping our jobs - aka what really matters = an income.
Chicken lady
10-20-18, 1:19pm
UL, I think you mom was right on.
i was taught to avoid the appearance of impropriety.
that said, I did a lot of things that looked improper. I think you base your behavior on respect and trust and err on the side of caution.
When dd was 14, her best friend was a 16 y.o. boy. She was forbidden to go in his house if his parents were not home. We stressed that our concern was for both of them (avoid the appearance...) one day he ran an extension cord out the window, set the tv up on the front lawn, and they had dinner and a movie. Dd said people honked at them. I told her one day it would be a great memory and she still laughs about it now.
At my work, since we are in a basement, we often take walks outside -- to get coffee or discuss a work related issue or idea. I have had female colleagues come to me and ask to go on a walk to talk about work ideas one-on-one. I am hesitant to do so, not because I think they would falsely accuse me but because I worry that someone else in the building (like on floors 1-3) might see me with a female colleague and then spread a rumor or someone might get the wrong idea.
In my work environment, we often see each other naked, examine each other naked, and in some circumstances end up showering together. It's not a big deal, unless you make it so. It's all about context.
Ultralight
10-20-18, 1:26pm
When dd was 14, her best friend was a 16 y.o. boy. She was forbidden to go in his house if his parents were not home. We stressed that our concern was for both of them (avoid the appearance...) one day he ran an extension cord out the window, set the tv up on the front lawn, and they had dinner and a movie. Dd said people honked at them. I told her one day it would be a great memory and she still laughs about it now.
Charming story!
Ultralight
10-20-18, 1:27pm
In my work environment, we often see each other naked, examine each other naked, and in some circumstances end up showering together. It's not a big deal, unless you make it so. It's all about context.
Oooooookay! haha
gimmethesimplelife
10-20-18, 1:36pm
Wow, Rob actually agreeing with something I posted. Dang! :D
Frankly, I prefer to work with men than women. I am very direct with a potty mouth and I’m also very sarcastic. The women frequently seem to play games and I hate that. The men say something stupid and I can call them out on it without any “woe is me” victim crap.Thanks, Tradd. It's nice those few times when I see eye to eye with those whom I often disagree with. Gives me a little bit of hope for the human race after all. Rob
Ultralight
10-20-18, 1:45pm
General questions for this thread:
If someone accuses someone else of sexual assault should the accused be allowed to deny the crime, put up a defense, and cross-examine the accuser?
Or should the accused have to make a confession (whether a true confession or not) and then suffer the punishment?
I've worked in all-male (except for me) and all-female work groups. I'm more comfortable in all-male, mostly male, and mixed groups, for reasons similar to ones Tradd stated. I don't dissemble well. My preference would be a smart, capable mixed (ethnicities, genders) group.
gimmethesimplelife
10-20-18, 2:15pm
I've worked in all-male (except for me) and all-female work groups. I'm more comfortable in all-male, mostly male, and mixed groups, for reasons similar to ones Tradd stated. I don't dissemble well. My preference would be a smart, capable mixed (ethnicities, genders) group.Jane, your post here made me think and I very much agree with you.....I also prefer to be around a smart, capable, mixed group - which I am now actually and this is one reason why what I am doing now works for me. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-20-18, 2:23pm
General questions for this thread:
If someone accuses someone else of sexual assault should the accused be allowed to deny the crime, put up a defense, and cross-examine the accuser?
Or should the accused have to make a confession (whether a true confession or not) and then suffer the punishment?I vote for the fist of the two options....isn't this how American law is supposed to work? I keep waiting for some man who has been falsely accused and falsely imprisoned to sue and take his lawsuit winnings to a foreign country to start over and start a trend in doing such........such would serve America right for taking away due process for men. I feel very very very strongly about this and it's and odd reversal for me as ten years ago I would have auto-sided with a woman in such a situation without thinking twice.
What changed this for me was the acceptance of some straight high school classmates of mine during my 30th high school reunion back in 2014.....I've since had the chance to hear the straight male perspective on these issues and I have to say - these men are not all wrong. Neither are the women......but the same holds true for men, too. Interesting middle aged growth on my part from someone who learned much nasty stuff about society at a very young age, no? This all did not hit me until my upper 40's - I'm very behind the curve on this one, I'm afraid.
Here's another interesting ? : What do we do about all of this? There really seems to be no middle solution whereby both men and women are safe - women from sexual misconduct of all stripes and men from false accusations of such. So either side you pick, or side with - there are going to be victims on the other side of the equation. And what's amazing to me is that it took me until the age of 47 to grasp that yes indeed, men can be and often are victims in these situations, too. Slow on the uptake on this one, I'll admit it, and playing the gay card on this one, were I to do so, which I am not, would be very lame in my book. Rob
It seems to me cases of sexual assault should be handled by professionals. False confessions are never a good idea.
Ultralight
10-20-18, 2:52pm
Anyone heard of this case?
https://www.theroot.com/white-woman-who-falsely-accused-2-black-football-player-1828591038
Teacher Terry
10-20-18, 3:34pm
I don’t think all women should be automatically believed.
gimmethesimplelife
10-20-18, 3:34pm
It seems to me cases of sexual assault should be handled by professionals. False confessions are never a good idea.Plus about one million. Thanks, Jane! Rob
Ultralight
10-20-18, 3:43pm
I don’t think all women should be automatically believed.
Which ones should be automatically believed?
Teacher Terry
10-20-18, 3:49pm
No one. Let law enforcement handle it. Those poor kids that lost their scholarships. That shouldn’t happen unless convicted. The
iris lilies
10-20-18, 3:57pm
Which ones should be automatically believed?
The ones who should be believed, obviously! What Is wrong with you? Can’t you read?:)
Ultralight
10-20-18, 4:00pm
False confessions are never a good idea.
What about false accusations?
Recently, I've been seeing lot of articles written by women wringing their hands about how to raise a nonrapist son who "respects" women. Maybe I'm alone in this, but when I was a teenager being polite to girls, avoiding potentially compromising situations and keeping my hands to myself weren't things I needed to be taught. Oh, there may have been a few instances when, under the influence of alcohol or moonlight (or both) I got a little fresh, but I certainly backed off immediately if it become clear my date wasn't on the same page. I think if women want to completely eliminate that sort of thing they're dreaming, or they need to go back to the chaperone system.
Sure, women make false charges but every available bit of evidence indicates that's rare. But it does happen, which is why we need due process--real due process, not some college committee trying to cover the school's ass or pursuing some political agenda.
The reason I believed Ford not Kavanaugh is because I know Kavanaugh. Not in high school--my friends in high school of either sex were nice kids who would never lie about anything serious. That's why they were my friends. But when I got to college I started meeting a lot more Kavanaughs, and I was shocked and disgusted by their attitudes toward women. I avoided them and, for the most part, any women who would give that kind of guy the time of day. I began to realize that not everyone had the same ethical standards I did, which ever since has made me careful about whom I select as companions.
Ultralight
10-20-18, 6:28pm
Recently, I've been seeing lot of articles written by women wringing their hands about how to raise a nonrapist son who "respects" women.
What percentage of men are rapists?
Sure, women make false charges but every available bit of evidence indicates that's rare. But it does happen, which is why we need due process--real due process, not some college committee trying to cover the school's ass or pursuing some political agenda.
Do you think that it is possible that due process is a deterrent from making false accusations? Like, lets say we got rid of due process for accusations of sexual assault like the SJWs want. Do you think the number of false accusations would remain static, increase, or decrease? It is an interesting question.
Recently, I've been seeing lot of articles written by women wringing their hands about how to raise a nonrapist son who "respects" women.
I just raised my daughter to know how to kill rapists. Seems to be working for her.
Teacher Terry
10-20-18, 8:51pm
How many has she needed to kill?
How many has she needed to kill?
She has had to physically prevent three assaults so far. No deaths, as of yet. One broken wrist.
Teacher Terry
10-20-18, 9:52pm
That’s truly terrible. Glad she broke that jerks wrist!
She has had to physically prevent three assaults so far. No deaths, as of yet. One broken wrist.
Good girl!
ToomuchStuff
10-21-18, 10:51am
I vote for the fist of the two options....isn't this how American law is supposed to work? I keep waiting for some man who has been falsely accused and falsely imprisoned to sue and take his lawsuit winnings to a foreign country to start over and start a trend in doing such........such would serve America right for taking away due process for men. I feel very very very strongly about this and it's and odd reversal for me as ten years ago I would have auto-sided with a woman in such a situation without thinking twice.
What do we do about all of this? There really seems to be no middle solution whereby both men and women are safe - women from sexual misconduct of all stripes and men from false accusations of such. So either side you pick, or side with - there are going to be victims on the other side of the equation. And what's amazing to me is that it took me until the age of 47 to grasp that yes indeed, men can be and often are victims in these situations, too. Slow on the uptake on this one, I'll admit it, and playing the gay card on this one, were I to do so, which I am not, would be very lame in my book. Rob
First, put down your fist. Then as you have shown your capable of learning, you should learn what due process is/means, before you start spouting off some belief that is inaccurate. What is the gay card and how does it stop naivety or the old Ignorance of the law, which is said to have no excuse?
There are victims on sometimes both sides (look up how often people get misidentified, heck recently I had a LEO friend who knows us both well, mistake my boss, for me, and he has a limp in his walk due to a missing limb section).
What do we do about this? In an imperfect system, we strive to make things better, not perfect as we are dealing with imperfect beings (and perfect only happens in this imaginary Utopia place, you like to visit).
I do exist from an act of violence decades ago. As discussed before I know a failed abortion attempt (home remedies before there were safe/legal alternatives), and the treatment of the result (beating the evil out of the child), etc. etc. to the point of the deathbed phone call telling me how much I was "like" the two rapists in the family (the original and an uncle I was taught to fear without providing the reasons). I've known of/seen the results of violence first hand and have been put in the position of helping someone before, where being raised to think like the perp, probably helped me as it would be what would I not want to happen scenario to help out. I still hear her words, but not her voice anymore, and I still look at women I am attracted to, with a would I let her kill me based on her perceptions thing/dream.
I have never known personally a single man, Rob, who was falsely accused of rape.
I have, on the other hand, known many many women who were raped or sexually assaulted or molested as children or harrassed, including myself.
I have also known men, including my ex-husband, who sexually harrassed women and were able to get out of any punishment from their employers.
I don't think the numbers support your argument here.
In other words, I'd worry about something else, if I were you, than men being falsely accused and deprived of due process.
False accusations are all the rage in so-called "men's groups." Along with rage, misogyny, and whining from the incels.
I'm sure there are some, but the chances of them being brought to trial are infinitesimal.
gimmethesimplelife
10-24-18, 1:01pm
I have never known personally a single man, Rob, who was falsely accused of rape.
I have, on the other hand, known many many women who were raped or sexually assaulted or molested as children or harrassed, including myself.
I have also known men, including my ex-husband, who sexually harrassed women and were able to get out of any punishment from their employers.
I don't think the numbers support your argument here.
In other words, I'd worry about something else, if I were you, than men being falsely accused and deprived of due process.Tybee, Hi! I have held off on replying to you for a bit as you are one of the posters here who regularly posts material that makes me revisit my stances. I wanted to take some time to reply because of this.
I would agree that sexual misconduct (a generic catch all phrase for describing this issue) has taken place for much longer than false accusations have. I would agree that there is no reason whatsoever a woman should EVER have to tolerate sexual misconduct of any stripe from a man...….and I also believe that the majority of women are not lying when they bring up a claim of sexual misconduct. I grant you all this here and now and with no attitude whatsoever. Are we on the same page to this point?
Where I diverge from being on the same page with many women (at least it seems to me) is that I believe men are worth the right to due process and furthermore, I believe that any man denied due process should be suing for minimum $100 million and no, that's not a misprint and yes, I'm dead serious. A woman bringing up a claim of sexual misconduct against a man should have her claim investigated and taken seriously - I have never believed otherwise, even with my involvement in Men's Rights. The flip of this however - deny a man due process for being accused of such - taking away the right to present evidence/witnesses to attempt to prove innocence - a fundamental prior legal concept of American law and I'm told one of the perks of this citizenship even though our lives are not worth socialized medicine (live in fear of America long enough and it's impossible not to slip this last in as often as possible) - TAKE THIS AWAY AND WHAT'S THE POINT ANY MALE AMERICAN to even waste their time in America, to bother with dating/relationships, to even bother trying to accomplish anything?
In short, if we as a nation deny due process in this area for men, what do men realistically owe America and why should men even bother staying here - what's in it for them to accept such an insanely high level of risk? What I see society moving towards very much makes me believe in my lifetime men will more and more (they have already started just like in Japan) just give up and input the rock bottom necessary into society to sustain their lives. That's all such a system is worth - if we are down with taking due process away from men.
It's not the claims of women regarding sexual misconduct that turn me off, and once again I'm fully down with such claims being investigated and taken seriously......it's the push for and actual denying of due process to 1/2 of this nation's population that really has me wondering what's the point of men even living in this country? If you want to second class citizen an entire gender - much better deals that are more male-friendly are available in other countries, and what's more for the ladies here - the Internet works against you on this one as it's very easy for men to do the research and learn where to flee and what the qualifications to do so legally are.
Honestly, I can understand women's anger for the long period of time they were expected to knuckle under and deal with sexual misconduct and I don't wish to minimize this - such is not my intent here. But take away due process and don't be surprised that the results you get from men in general are not what you expected/not of your seeking. In other words, more and more men walking away from women, society, and also Western countries in general. (and to be fair to America for once, this problem is actually even worse in Canada, Australia, and Britain - New Zealand I'm not sure about).
There is some good here, though. With fewer and fewer marriages and less and less dating and more and more mistrust between the sexes, more people will be free of societal roles and therefore, may have the chance at more interesting lives of self-actualization instead of playing by the long term rules of Western society (meaning getting married, having kids, living in suburbs, etc.)
I'm very grateful to live in a time where same-sex marriage is legal but also I'm grateful to live in a time where heterosexual relationships are undergoing tsunami-like changes. Interesting times we live in, no? Rob
Teacher Terry
10-24-18, 1:11pm
Of course men deserve due process. I don’t think anyone was suggesting otherwise. I think it’s great that women are no longer expected to get married and are free to live the lives they desire. However, I believe it is best for kids to be raised by 2 loving parents if at all possible. Realistically this won’t always happen but I hope that is what people strive for. Stable families of any type will help kids to reach their potential.
gimmethesimplelife
10-24-18, 1:17pm
Of course men deserve due process. I don’t think anyone was suggesting otherwise. I think it’s great that women are no longer expected to get married and are free to live the lives they desire. However, I believe it is best for kids to be raised by 2 loving parents if at all possible. Realistically this won’t always happen but I hope that is what people strive for. Stable families of any type will help kids to reach their potential.TT, I just want to say Thank You for your stance of being friendly to due process rights for men.....trust me on this, not all women are by any means. I very much respect your stance here. And I agree that being raised by two loving parents is best for a child, though as I'm sure you know it doesn't always work out that way. Rob
catherine
10-24-18, 1:17pm
I tried write this down when I saw it reported on CNN, and I can't remember it completely, but apparently, this whole issue is a partisan one.
They asked "are you fearful that young men are going to be unjustly accused of sexual abuse/rape" (something like that)
And Republicans said something along the split of 65% YES / 35% NO, and Democrats were the mirror opposite: 65% NO / 35% YES.
I wonder why.
gimmethesimplelife
10-24-18, 1:19pm
I tried to get something to write this down, and I can't remember it, but apparently, this whole issue is a partisan one.
They asked "are you fearful that young men are going to be unjustly accused of sexual abuse/rape" (something like that)
And Republicans said something along the split of 65% YES / 35% NO, and Democrats were the mirror opposite: 65% NO / 35% YES.
I wonder why.Interesting, very interesting, Catherine. As a life long liberal it's amazing to me that I am taking a Conservative view on this issue but I've looked this issue over and over, spent time alone shining a flashlight on the dark corners of my soul, and this is my truth: I'm with the Republicans on this one, even if with very little else. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
10-24-18, 1:32pm
She has had to physically prevent three assaults so far. No deaths, as of yet. One broken wrist.For what it's worth, Bravo to you for teaching your daughter how to defend herself and that she has to right to do so in the first place. I've never said that men are angels and yes indeed there are men out there that do engage in this reprehensible behavior...….good that your daughter has prevented such/stood up to such. Rob
iris lilies
10-24-18, 2:22pm
More strawman arguements from Rob.
Rob, who specifically, and which specific organizations, propose these non-due process solutions to accusations of sexual agressive acts? Provide web links or they dont exist.
note that while there are certainly crazies who propose all kinds of actions consistent with their nutjob ideas, I am asking you for weblinks to mainstream persons or organizations that propose legal consequences for no due process.
Put up or...well, you know.
Rob, who specifically, and which specific organizations, propose these non-due process solutions to accusations of sexual agressive acts?
So far, it hasn’t caught on in a big way unless you count college administrators.
Ultralight
10-24-18, 4:59pm
So far, it hasn’t caught on in a big way unless you count college administrators.
When I was a student I was on my university's "Student Judiciary Board." The board had to decide whether or not to punish students for violating various university policies. For instance, I was on a case where two students got busted for smoking a joint in the dorm.
The police were not involved. I remember at the time students could be expelled for this. I was an officer in the university's chapter of NORML (ever the libertarian!). So when I "got wind" of this policy to expel and suspend, along with other overreaches of power I rallied a bunch of stoners and misfits and we... well, we took over that board and threw cases out on technicalities and gave out warnings. haha
My point behind this story is that universities create policies and then police them. The universities can to some degree operate outside the law and make decisions that can crush someone's life. And without any kind of due process... it can be damaging.
Fortunately during my time on the student judiciary board I did not have to deal with sex crimes -- mostly just pot heads and dumb asses doing unremarkable dumb things.
iris lilies
10-24-18, 11:02pm
So far, it hasn’t caught on in a big way unless you count college administrators.
Rob, in all of his talk, references our legal system. He is talking about criminal justice cases.
Rob I ask again for web links showing women snd womens organizations that advocate legal consequences such as jail without the “ due process” you continue to talk about.
Rob, in all of his talk, references our legal system. He is talking about criminal justice cases.
Rob specifically above said:
"I keep waiting for some man who has been falsely accused and falsely imprisoned to sue and take his lawsuit winnings to a foreign country to start over and start a trend in doing such........such would serve America right for taking away due process for men."
Now, I try to keep up with civil rights law, and I support most of our civil rights organizations, and this is the first that I have heard that American has taken away due process for men.
I am sure Rob can point us at the legislation that has done so, or the court decisions?
I'll be waiting.
ToomuchStuff
10-25-18, 11:07am
Accusations are actionable. To be imprisoned however, involves Due process, so Rob doesn't appear to know what Due process is, but seems to be confusing that with Liberty.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.