Identity politics destroying friendships?

[Ultralight]

A friendship -- a looooooong time -- friendship is in jeopardy now because of a disagreement about identity politics.

The whole Kavanugh thing is still wreaking havoc.

A friend of mine thinks that sexism is so pervasive that she is literally suffering.

But to me, she herself is actually the evidence that sexism is fading out fast.

She is 33 and in a management position at a huge international corporation where some of her underlings are straight white men. She makes about $90k.

She owns her own nice house in a "gayborhood" and owns her own new car.

She has two bachelor degrees (Spanish and Pharm Sales). She also has an MBA. She got scholarships!

She teaches part-time for Kaplan (the testing company).

She travels, plays in softball leagues, goes out dancing with her "gay harem," dates men as she pleases, and is on the board of a non-profit.

I fail to see the oppression.

[Chicken lady]

Well, as you have been friends with this person for a long time, perhaps, if you want to continue to be friends with her, you should ask about what is affecting her and how. And listen. Witholding judgement (although that might kill you.)

lets imagine that same person in that same situation. Except, let’s imagine that she had a physically abusive boyfriend whom she ditched. And then got involved with a guy who was controlling and verbally abusive, as were his friends. Now she’s not getting hit, which one could argue is an improvement, but she’s getting put down and discouraged at every turn, which is causing depression and low self esteem. Making it harder and harder to hold it together. She doesn’t see any way out and no one sees what is happening to her, or they dismiss it, or don’t think it’s that bad. One day she just can’t face it anymore and kills herself. Everyone says “I don’t understand. Her life was so great.”

[Ultralight]

Well, as you have been friends with this person for a long time, perhaps, if you want to continue to be friends with her, you should ask about what is affecting her and how. And listen. Witholding judgement (although that might kill you.)

I did that literally for years.


lets imagine that same person in that same situation. Except, let’s imagine that she had a physically abusive boyfriend whom she ditched. And then got involved with a guy who was controlling and verbally abusive, as were his friends. Now she’s not getting hit, which one could argue is an improvement, but she’s getting put down and discouraged at every turn, which is causing depression and low self esteem. Making it harder and harder to hold it together. She doesn’t see any way out and no one sees what is happening to her, or they dismiss it, or don’t think it’s that bad. One day she just can’t face it anymore and kills herself. Everyone says “I don’t understand. Her life was so great.”

Why wouldn't someone in this position leave that guy and move on?

[LDAHL]

To my mind, breaking a friendship over politics betrays a certain paucity of spirit. Too many of us are have lost our connections with deeper ethical and moral systems and are forced to rely on transient, oversimplified ideologies. I try to take a love the sinner but hate the sin attitude when it comes to political differences. Disagreeing with me may mean you are wrong, but it doesn't mean you are evil.

[Ultralight]

To my mind, breaking a friendship over politics betrays a certain paucity of spirit. Too many of us are have lost our connections with deeper ethical and moral systems and are forced to rely on transient, oversimplified ideologies. I try to take a love the sinner but hate the sin attitude when it comes to political differences. Disagreeing with me may mean you are wrong, but it doesn't mean you are evil.

I have told her I do not want to lose the friendship and I am willing to agree to disagree.

[LDAHL]

I have told her I do not want to lose the friendship and I am willing to agree to disagree.

I think that's the high road. If she can't live with that, could it have been much of a friendship anyway?

[gimmethesimplelife]

This is such an interesting topic for me as my take is a complete 180 from the OP's - which is cool, no judgement is coming from me here in any way, shape, or form.

In my infamous zip code (no need to mention it at this point, no?) friendships are often formed BASED on identity politics. Most people where I live are in the same boat (though part of the neighborhood is getting an influx of moneyed outsiders who don't really fit in, not at all) so people are going to have the tendency to see things in a similar way to begin with. I have overall found identity politics to be of help in forming friendships and alliances with people and not the opposite.....until I leave my infamous zip code. There are times I truly feel that I am in a foreign country just by virtue of taking a public bus a few miles north of me - say on an errand (for example, I'm in Navy Federal Credit Union now and to visit a branch, the closest one is in the 85016, and a nice part of it at that) or on a secret shop on a day off, most of which are going to be in areas society deems "nicer".

At any rate, my point is that I have found identity politics overall to be a warm and inclusive concept - provided that I stay in my neighborhood or visit a similar area. Rob

[JaneV2.0]

I don't believe in "identity politics"--It's a label purposely slapped on those who genuinely care about people and causes to denigrate and belittle them and, as I pointed out in an earlier post, it only seems to apply to progressives. No one talks about evangelicals, for example, in the same breath as "identity politics."

Your friend has every right to feel enraged/frustrated by Kavanaugh's appointment. Many of us do. But I think agreeing to disagree is an adequate compromise, since you're clearly unable to understand each other's positions.

[Tammy]

I choose to not talk about politics in these situations. And the friendships can continue ...

[Williamsmith]

A friendship -- a looooooong time -- friendship is in jeopardy now because of a disagreement about identity politics.

The whole Kavanugh thing is still wreaking havoc.

A friend of mine thinks that sexism is so pervasive that she is literally suffering.

But to me, she herself is actually the evidence that sexism is fading out fast.

She is 33 and in a management position at a huge international corporation where some of her underlings are straight white men. She makes about $90k.

She owns her own nice house in a "gayborhood" and owns her own new car.

She has two bachelor degrees (Spanish and Pharm Sales). She also has an MBA. She got scholarships!

She teaches part-time for Kaplan (the testing company).

She travels, plays in softball leagues, goes out dancing with her "gay harem," dates men as she pleases, and is on the board of a non-profit.

I fail to see the oppression.

Continue to be her friend. Even though I think you are jealous as all get out of her lifestyle.

[Zoe Girl]

I don't get how having personal and political response to Kavanaugh is identity politics. Many peopleare finally able to talkto about things that happened to them and oppose openly this appointment. I like the comment about evangelical Christians,

Part of sexism fading is the ability to use our experiences to have an impact,

[Teacher Terry]

I think losing friends over politics is ridiculous. As I have said before I lost my friendship with my half sister over it although I told her we can agree to disagree but she couldn’t. I am married to a Republican. Her life sounds good.

[ApatheticNoMore]

one doesn't have much privilege in a meaningful sense at all unless they are able to turn it into at least decent economic advantage (at least stable middle class - at the very least), period. There are no privileged poor people, or it becomes, what it actually is, although that's seldom understood, specialized language that don't really map that well to life. But the converse is not true. One can be well off economically and experience racism etc..

I used to think identity politics was a smear against those who cared about racial issues, but I've seen the word used pretty narrowly, against those who claim to be on the left who use identity issues to deliberately not focus on economic ones. I think THAT is a fair critique. So focusing on Hillary Clinton's sex when she ran a bad campaign, that would be identity politics.

Politics can reflect plenty deep moral values, like say one's deepest moral values is respect for the environment and a living earth, then that's going to manifest politically.

But I don't really know what the issue is actually is in this case. She may have her reasons for saying she experienced sexism, we don't know what they are. Maybe they aren't even her experiences but what she has seen a good female friend(s)/her mom/whatever go through. She might not want to tell. I'm not really sure how the Kavanaugh conversation is destroying anything, the guy shouldn't go to jail without adequate proof, but he was not *owed* the supreme court. But being the politics were what they were (R's had the vote) he got it. It really is as simple as that - just real politic. I doubt you are going to like his decisions either.


Why wouldn't someone in this position leave that guy and move on?

in a case like that it would probably be psychological. But the problem with explaining it to you is you believe all psychological problems should be easily overcome. Which I admit is a more pragmatically useful defense mechanism (uh it is a defense mechanism) than choosing to hopelessly wallow in them. But really isn't how it works for everyone, really truly. But this was a theoretical person, and what's really up with your friend, I don't know.

[LDAHL]

I think there is such a thing as identity politics, and it is not limited to the left. Certainly there would seem to be a strong element of it in Trump’s gaudy appeal. The evidence for it seems to be everywhere, from college course catalogues to Twitter mobs to strutting Proud Boys to the shrieking maenads in Senate hearings.

I don’t think it serves the interests of either right or left very well. It tends to infantilize debates of complex issues and reduce policy differences to playground taunting.

[Ultralight]

Your friend has every right to feel enraged/frustrated by Kavanaugh's appointment. Many of us do.

I am one of the folks who feels enraged and frustrated about the Kavanaugh appointment.

[Ultralight]

Continue to be her friend. Even though I think you are jealous as all get out of her lifestyle.

I am not jay over her life-stilo, yo!

Here is why: She has to mow the lawn. She has three floors of space to keep clean. She is anti-dog. She works for an evil corporation.

That just names a few.

I would love that $90k though!

[Ultralight]

I don't get how having personal and political response to Kavanaugh is identity politics.

It depends why you have that personal or political response. Do you simply disagree with his judicial record? Or do you support Dr. Ford? Or do you hate Ivy League douche bags? See the differences?



Many people are finally able to talk to about things that happened to them and oppose openly this appointment.

Here is the difference: You say: "Many people are finally able to talk to about things that happened to them..."

And that is a response very deeply rooted in identity politics. "what happened to them" is a foregone conclusion to you. Why? Because of Dr. Ford's immutable identity characteristics, ones you either share or are sympathetic to.

I would say: "Many more people finally feel like they are able to talk about things that they say have happened to them..."

I say this because Dr. Ford made an accusation that has never been proven. And Kavanaugh's denial may or may not be true. I don't know. I am doubtful.

Do you see the subtle difference?


Part of sexism fading is the ability to use our experiences to have an impact,

What do you mean?

[Ultralight]

I think there is such a thing as identity politics, and it is not limited to the left. Certainly there would seem to be a strong element of it in Trump’s gaudy appeal. The evidence for it seems to be everywhere, from college course catalogues to Twitter mobs to strutting Proud Boys to the shrieking maenads in Senate hearings.

I don’t think it serves the interests of either right or left very well. It tends to infantilize debates of complex issues and reduce policy differences to playground taunting.

This is probably the most I have ever agreed with you. And I wish I had said this!

[Ultralight]

After my third offer to agree to disagree she said this:

"I'd like to stop talking about this. You just really don't get it. And it's upsetting. I'm done crying for the day. Thanks."

[ApatheticNoMore]

I am not jay over her life-stilo, yo!

could have fooled me! you seemed obviously jealous. but what difference does it make, even so, we don't get to live other people's lives, even if they actually are better than ours.

[Ultralight]

could have fooled me! you seemed obviously jealous. but what difference does it make, even so, we don't get to live other people's lives, even if they actually are better than ours.

I am definitely jay over that $90k.

$90k could make my life a lot easier.

The rest of that stuff.... doesn't do it for me. And there are other things about her lifestyle that I am not going to mention that turn me off.

But yeah, that $90k would be nice.

[Ultralight]

So she said she wanted to stop discussing it. Which I agreed with (I suggested it several times in a row). But she would then go deep into the topic again.

Then she finally sent that message above about how she wanted to stop the topic.

I was cool with this. I then told her that I did not like how she was so dismissive of me and that I don't do that to her. I listen and I am open to new info and to changing my mind if new info is compelling. Basically, I don't think a friend should be so dismissive.

She accused me of bringing up the topic again despite her telling me not to. But I did not bring up the topic. I just talked about how I don't appreciate her being so dismissive by saying things like:

"You don't get it."

"Typical response."

"You ought to know better"

And so forth.

Then I said this:

"Okay, I am done. I sincerely hope you reflect and consider other viewpoints and ideas in the future."

She said:

"Self righteous hypocrite. You have now officially lost my friendship."

[Williamsmith]

So she said she wanted to stop discussing it. Which I agreed with (I suggested it several times in a row). But she would then go deep into the topic again.

Then she finally sent that message above about how she wanted to stop the topic.

I was cool with this. I then told her that I did not like how she was so dismissive of me and that I don't do that to her. I listen and I am open to new info and to changing my mind if new info is compelling. Basically, I don't think a friend should be so dismissive.

She accused me of bringing up the topic again despite her telling me not to. But I did not bring up the topic. I just talked about how I don't appreciate her being so dismissive by saying things like:

"You don't get it."

"Typical response."

"You ought to know better"

And so forth.

Then I said this:

"Okay, I am done. I sincerely hope you reflect and consider other viewpoints and ideas in the future."

She said:

"Self righteous hypocrite. You have now officially lost my friendship."

Often self righteous hypocrites and evil corporatists find reasons to rekindle relationships. I’m sure you’ll probably be friends again. Quit throwing sand in each other’s faces or you won’t be allowed out during recess anymore.

[Ultralight]

Often self righteous hypocrites and evil corporatists find reasons to rekindle relationships. I’m sure you’ll probably be friends again. Quit throwing sand in each other’s faces or you won’t be allowed out during recess anymore.

If she wants to be friends again, I am open to that. People are often surprised how I can be friends with people I disagree with, even profoundly disagree with.

They are just wrong about some stuff. Big deal! That is what I think.

And I will debate and discuss endlessly if the person engages me. But if they want to agree to disagree I am like: "Cool!"

End of story.

[LDAHL]

This is probably the most I have ever agreed with you.

Well, we both like dogs, which is way more important than the politics of the last two minutes.

[Williamsmith]

Hey! I like dogs too!

[LDAHL]

Hey! I like dogs too!

What is your position on cats?

[Ultralight]

Well, we both like dogs, which is way more important than the politics of the last two minutes.

True! haha

[Ultralight]

As a thought exercise I decided switch the genders of my friend, well, former friend.

And it is interesting the picture that is painted.

"He is 33 and in a management position at a huge international corporation where some of his underlings are women and people of color. He makes about $90k.

He owns his own nice house in a trendy neighborhood and owns his own new car.

He has two bachelor degrees (Spanish and Pharm Sales). He also has an MBA. He got scholarships!

He teaches part-time for Kaplan (the testing company).

He travels, plays golf, goes to football games and concerts with his buddies. He dates women as he pleases, and is on the board of a non-profit."

Now doesn't this guy sound like he is very, very privileged?

[Gardenarian]

Tl;dr

You are telling your female friend that sexism isn't a problem?
You are saying that her own experiences and feelings aren't valid?

And you're surprised this pisses her off?

[Ultralight]

Tl;dr

You are telling your female friend that sexism isn't a problem?
You are saying that her own experiences and feelings aren't valid?

And you're surprised this pisses her off?

I actually did not tell her that sexism is not a problem. I said I think sexism is rapidly fading in our society and that her own lifestyle shows some of that, but I also cited high profile examples and certain demographic trends, such as women dominating men in higher education.

Let me ask you this: What makes an experience "valid?"
What makes feelings "valid?"

Now, I am pretty sure you are going to dodge answering those questions. But maybe you will surprise me and take a shot at it. We'll see.

[ApatheticNoMore]

As a thought exercise I decided switch the genders of my friend, well, former friend.

And it is interesting the picture that is painted.

"He is 33 and in a management position at a huge international corporation where some of his underlings are women and people of color. He makes about $90k.

He owns his own nice house in a trendy neighborhood and owns his own new car.

He has two bachelor degrees (Spanish and Pharm Sales). He also has an MBA. He got scholarships!

He teaches part-time for Kaplan (the testing company).

He travels, plays golf, goes to football games and concerts with his buddies. He dates women as he pleases, and is on the board of a non-profit."

Now doesn't this guy sound like he is very, very privileged?

I would just say "they seem to be doing decently financially now, and that has better odds for doing well financially later than not doing well financially now.". I mean I guess you can call someone with millions banked privileged in the financial department but your not even talking about people with real and significant wealth, merely a decent income, splitting hairs on differences in income that don't even seem that significant in the scheme of things.

But I still think the mother hypothesis could be true, her mother experienced a lot of sexism, well never underestimate a mother's influence on a girl as it's her model for being a woman.

[Ultralight]

I would just say "they seem to be doing decently financially now, and that has better odds for doing well financially later than not doing well financially now.". I mean I guess you can call someone with millions banked privileged in the financial department but your not even talking about people with real and significant wealth, merely a decent income, splitting hairs on differences in income that don't even seem that significant in the scheme of things.

But I still think the mother hypothesis could be true, her mother experienced a lot of sexism, well never underestimate a mother's influence on a girl as it's her model for being a woman.

Well, a $90k salary in Cleveland, OH is bangin'! In LA I am sure it is chump change.

Interestingly, this friend of mine has pointed out that she believes her father is the ideal man. Her father and her mother are both married and have been since the late 1970s.

Much of her complaints about sexism come from "being passed over for promotions for lesser qualified straight, white men."

And this could be true.

But what my friend does not understand is that sometimes promotions are about more than your resume. They are also about personality. Her personality is rather grating. She is domineering (and no, I don't mean assertive; I know the difference). She often comes off as rather rude. She talks down to people. People don't like that. haha

[herbgeek]

I said I think sexism is rapidly fading in our society and that her own lifestyle shows some of that, but I also cited high profile examples and certain demographic trends, such as women dominating men in higher education.

So if your friend was black, would you say that the fact that he/she made more than you to be evidence that racism is rapidly fading? Or would the fact we elected a partially black president be proof that racism is no more?

[LDAHL]

So if your friend was black, would you say that the fact that he/she made more than you to be evidence that racism is rapidly fading? Or would the fact we elected a partially black president be proof that racism is no more?

While not conclusive in themselves, those data points would seem supportive of a conclusion that racism is in decline.

[Gardenarian]

People don't need to prove their personal experiences or justify their feelings, certainly not to friends. Feeling and experiences belong to ourselves, and have their own validity.

If you must make an issue out of it, there is overwhelming evidence of sexism, particularly in the U.S., and the current political climate is trying to take back gains that women have made by cutting support for women's reproductive health, family support, equal employment laws, and so on. You can point to a few outliers, but that's what they are - outliers. Look at the make-up of Congress, the Senate, the Supreme Court. Look at who are the highest paid actors and athletes. Look at who is taking care of the kids. How many rapists are ever actually convicted? The "me too" movement is primarily well known men; every minute a woman is assaulted or raped and the majority of these attacks are never addressed. Sexism is not a debatable point; it is part of our culture.

[iris lilies]

People don't need to prove their personal experiences or justify their feelings, certainly not to friends. Feeling and experiences belong to ourselves, and have their own validity.

If you must make an issue out of it, there is overwhelming evidence of sexism, particularly in the U.S., and the current political climate is trying to take back gains that women have made by cutting support for women's reproductive health, family support, equal employment laws, and so on. You can point to a few outliers, but that's what they are - outliers. Look at the make-up of Congress, the Senate, the Supreme Court. Look at who are the highest paid actors and athletes. Look at who is taking care of the kids. How many rapists are ever actually convicted? The "me too" movement is primarily well known men; every minute a woman is assaulted or raped and the majority of these attacks are never addressed. Sexism is not a debatable point; it is part of our culture.

Not a debatable point? Come now.

[Ultralight]

Gardenarian: I appreciate learning about your perspectives. I also appreciate this opportunity to discuss and even debate some of these important issues with you. This is a great forum for such activities. So let me go piece by piece, both to make sure I understand you and to raise issues or points of my own.


People don't need to prove their personal experiences or justify their feelings, certainly not to friends.

Friends engage in debates and have disagreements. My friend and I were discussing and debating an issue. She made assertions that I took issue with and I expressed myself. Some of these issues were directly related to her experiences and her subjective perceptions about those experiences.


Feeling and experiences belong to ourselves, and have their own validity.

Feelings and experiences are our own. But feelings are not facts. For instance, most people feel safe riding in a car. But auto deaths are a major cause of death in the US. The experience of feeling safe in a car is misleading to the rider and/or driver. See how our feelings don't jive with reality sometimes?


If you must make an issue out of it, there is overwhelming evidence of sexism, particularly in the U.S., and the current political climate is trying to take back gains that women have made by cutting support for women's reproductive health, family support, equal employment laws, and so on.

Share with me some of this overwhelming evidence along with the sources from which it came. I would really like to read it and learn more.

As someone who donated to Planned Parenthood I am certainly also very concerned about women's right to abortion being taken away by right-wing judges.

But let's think about the political climate. There are more women than men in the US, so they could control our electoral politics if they worked in unison. Women also live longer, so they can cast more votes over the course of their lifetimes.

Could it be that some women are just conservative politically and this is why our political climate is the way it is? This seems like an issue you might also want to take up with conservative women.


You can point to a few outliers, but that's what they are - outliers.

I think I can actually point to a huge number of what you call "outliers." But it might take up more space than would be easily readable here. Let me give you a few though.

Beyonce, a black woman, is the most popular pop star in the world.

Oprah is one of the world's most powerful media moguls -- and she grew up underprivileged during the 1960s.

Maxine Waters is a black congresswoman. She was not in any way legally barred from running from or serving in office. She ran, she got elected, she now serves in her office.

Hillary Clinton ran for president and got backing from many other politicians, businesses, and other organizations. She won the popular vote and came very close to the presidency. I did not vote for her, but her run certainly shows that a woman can and likely will become president someday soon.

Serena Williams is a hugely successful and massively popular accomplished athlete. She is also black and married to a very, very rich white tech mogul.

Women are simply crushing men when it comes to higher education. Check out this article: https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2017/08/why-men-are-the-new-college-minority/536103/


I have many more examples if you would like them.


Look at the make-up of Congress, the Senate, the Supreme Court.

Women collectively could easily vote the men out of congress and the senate. But I actually think some women voted for the men in there that you resent so much. As for the supreme court, I simply wish it was more liberal -- a lot more liberal! Women could vote for presidents who will appoint women judges to the SCOTUS. Why haven't they?


Look at who are the highest paid actors and athletes.

Give me some names and numbers here.


Look at who is taking care of the kids.

Active and involved parents take care of the kids. The American women who take care of their kids do so because they chose to have kids and then continue to choose to take care of these kids. I fail to see the issue you are bringing up. Please explain.



How many rapists are ever actually convicted?

I am not sure. Please give me statistics. I want to learn more.


The "me too" movement is primarily well known men; every minute a woman is assaulted or raped and the majority of these attacks are never addressed.

Can you give me more info and statistics to verify your claims?


Sexism is not a debatable point; it is part of our culture.

Please explain more.

[Gardenarian]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_inequality_in_the_United_States

[Ultralight]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_inequality_in_the_United_States

Inadequate answer.

[Ultralight]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_inequality_in_the_United_States

You made some huge claims. And you did not substantiate them. This is why I will continue to doubt things that you claim.

Why not go point by point, like I did, and substantiate your claims, clarify things, or ask additional questions?

[jp1]

You made some huge claims. And you did not substantiate them. This is why I will continue to doubt things that you claim.

Why not go point by point, like I did, and substantiate your claims, clarify things, or ask additional questions?

And this is why your friend is angry with you. There are olenty of things that can be argued one way or the other. If you’re her friend you agree. If you’re ‘right’ you point out why she’s wrong. It’s up to you to decide whether you want more to be her ‘friend’ or to be ‘right’.

[Teacher Terry]

I have told UL before do you want to be right or in a relationship and he dismissed that as bogus.

[ApatheticNoMore]

it does not seem worth losing a friendship over no.

[Ultralight]

I have told UL before do you want to be right or in a relationship and he dismissed that as bogus.

You did not read the thread. I told my friend over and over that I was quite willing to agree to disagree. She repeatedly engaged me in further debate.

And after we agreed to drop the subject I merely expressed my frustration with her being dismissive to me in a way that friends ought not be. I was not dismissive of her.

So does that sound like I wanted to be right instead of maintaining my friendship? No.

Read the flippin' thread.

[Ultralight]

If you’re her friend you agree.

You realize that this is an incredibly flawed way of thinking, don't you?

So a real friend tells their friend what they want to hear. Got it. Yup. Makes sense.

jp1's friend: "Hey friend, I was thinking that a scorpion tattoo on my face would look really cool. You think it would look cool, right?"

jp1: "Absolutely! Do it!"

[herbgeek]

So does that sound like I wanted to be right instead of maintaining my friendship?

Yes, it does. "Agree to disagree" indicates you think you are right and she is wrong.

I've also had people use this phrase on me when they are close minded, and not open to hearing additional facts/arguments because they want to believe what they believe. Not saying that this is the case here, but that's been my experience when people say it to me.

[Ultralight]

And this is why your friend is angry with you. There are olenty of things that can be argued one way or the other. If you’re her friend you agree. If you’re ‘right’ you point out why she’s wrong. It’s up to you to decide whether you want more to be her ‘friend’ or to be ‘right’.

And the really insane thing about this rationale is how it is applied to my friend instead of me. Why shouldn't my friend be agreeing with me? I am her friend too and if you're a friend you agree, right?

[Ultralight]

Yes, it does. "Agree to disagree" indicates you think you are right and she is wrong.

Does it?

And let us say it does: A frickin' grown-up can live with the fact that someone else thinks they are wrong about something.

[herbgeek]

And the really insane thing about this rationale is how it is applied to my friend instead of me.

Because the topic you were talking about was sexism towards women. She knows how she has been treated as a woman. For you to insist sexism isn't real is saying her experience isn't real.

[Ultralight]

Because the topic you were talking about was sexism towards women. She knows how she has been treated as a woman. For you to insist sexism isn't real is saying her experience isn't real.

I did not insist sexism is not real. Quote me.

You are quite possibly conflating the way my friend perceived her experiences subjectively and fact-based reality.

[Ultralight]

Because the topic you were talking about was sexism towards women. She knows how she has been treated as a woman. For you to insist sexism isn't real is saying her experience isn't real.

So what about this? A former flame of mine -- her name is Heather. She is and always has been a woman. She is also a right-winger. She was like the Ann Coulter of my university (and Heather was really, really into me, the "campus lefty-lib radical," in her words).

Her feeling and experience was that she was afforded all the opportunities in her life that anyone else -- male or female or any skin color -- was afforded. She was middle class and did concede to me that she'd have had more opportunities if she were from a rich family.

But she insisted that as a woman she could major in anything she wanted, apply to any job, run for office, go to graduate school, and so forth. She said she was equal to men and that systemic sexism had long since been over.

So my question is this: Was Heather wrong? Should I have been a good friend (boyfriend?) and told her she was entirely right?

Now what is Heather and my recent ex-friend debated?

[jp1]

You may not have told her sexism isnt real, but you have, at least here, indicated that you don’t think she’s the victim of it. At least not in a major kind of way.

I am well aware that as an upper middle class, american white guy, living in a coastal, urban area that i suffer much less homophobia than lots of other people in the world. But if you tried to tell me that i don’t experience homophobia i’d tell you to eff yourself and then i’d know better than to bother bringing up the topic again with you. That’s probably what your friend should have done but i suppose it’s too late for that.

[Ultralight]

You may not have told her sexism isnt real, but you have, at least here, indicated that you don’t think she’s the victim of it. At least not in a major kind of way.

That is my opinion, yes. I don't think she was a victim of sexism by institutions such as our government, schools, or the private sector employers she has worked for. Could individual dum bass men have acted sexist toward her? Oh, I am sure. And I am 100% against that.


I am well aware that as an upper middle class, american white guy, living in a coastal, urban area that i suffer much less homophobia than lots of other people in the world. But if you tried to tell me that i don’t experience homophobia i’d tell you to eff yourself and then i’d know better than to bother bringing up the topic again with you. That’s probably what your friend should have done but i suppose it’s too late for that.

Do you think that a 25 or 30 year old gay man in America today suffers more, less, or the same amount of homophobia as you did when you were 25 or 30?

[jp1]

That is my opinion, yes. I don't think she was a victim of sexism by institutions such as our government, schools, or the private sector employers she has worked for. Could individual dum bass men have acted sexist toward her? Oh, I am sure. And I am 100% against that.



Do you think that a 25 or 30 year old gay man in America today suffers more, less, or the same amount of homophobia as you did when you were 25 or 30?

I’ll ask my 26 year old coworker whose mother disowned him because he’s gay and get back to you.

[Ultralight]

I’ll ask my 26 year old coworker whose mother disowned him because he’s gay and get back to you.

She is obviously a bad individual. No question about that.

But do you think any college or university would deny him entry based on his gayness?
Do you think that any public employer would turn him down based on gayness?
Even most private employers are rainbow friendly! By most, I mean the vast majority.

I went to the University of Alabama. One of my closest friends who went there with me is gay. And when he arrived at Bama he was all glittery. The University gave him two of their most prestigious fellowships. And it is extremely rare for one person to get them both. He also got assistantships every single year along with some special merit scholarships to go to Washington, DC to work on his diss.

By the end of his many years at Bama he was no less gay, though he did ease up on the glitter a bit. He was always out; his gayness was not a secret to the University or his colleagues.

This was from 1999 to 2008.

[Ultralight]

I’ll ask my 26 year old coworker whose mother disowned him because he’s gay and get back to you.
I am sure this means nothing:

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2018/oct/25/lgbt-characters-at-record-high-on-tv-report-finds

[LDAHL]

I am sure this means nothing:

https://www.theguardian.com/tv-and-radio/2018/oct/25/lgbt-characters-at-record-high-on-tv-report-finds

One party here is talking about a trend, which he views as generally favorable. He is in no way saying everything is rainbows and unicorns.

Others counter with individual experiences or anecdotes, as if only one contradiction of a trend is sufficient evidence against the trend. Or how he isn’t grasping somebody else’s felt experience.

The first party is not necessarily blinded by privilege nor are the others necessarily trapped in an endless cycle of competitive victimhood. But I think it does illustrate how we can talk past each other.

[ApatheticNoMore]

But she insisted that as a woman she could major in anything she wanted, apply to any job, run for office, go to graduate school, and so forth. She said she was equal to men and that systemic sexism had long since been over.

I expect she might well experience some if she tried to do a traditionally male blue collar trade (like say she decided to become a welder), that type of stuff is still overwhelmingly male.

Besides it is the opinion of a college student which by definition means they know nothing about life yet as they have not lived yet (well fine a non-traditional 50 year old college student maybe :laff: but you know what I mean ...). It's a college student projecting "how life is ....", very well, but really talk to people who have actual experience of decades in the workforce to learn anything. I don't know but there are a lot of things that only come up if living it, working and raising kids at the same time and the potential issues it raises, trying to advance in the workforce, being an older worker and a woman and how that is etc..

[jp1]

I guess my point is that we don’t live trends. We live individual lives. With individual experiences. I'm not going to tell my coworker, ‘don’t be so upset about this. The world is less homophobic today than it used to be. At least our employer usn’t going to fire us over this! Whoppee!’

[Ultralight]

But I think it does illustrate how we can talk past each other.

Valid criticism here. Point taken.

[Ultralight]

Besides it is the opinion of a college student which by definition means they know nothing about life yet as they have not lived yet (well fine a non-traditional 50 year old college student maybe :laff: but you know what I mean ...). It's a college student projecting "how life is ....", very well, but really talk to people who have actual experience of decades in the workforce to learn anything. I don't know but there are a lot of things that only come up if living it, working and raising kids at the same time and the potential issues it raises, trying to advance in the workforce, being an older worker and a woman and how that is etc..

She went on to graduate school. She went on to hold high level staff positions for senators. She made a career in conservative politics. She still feels the same way as she did back then.

[Ultralight]

I guess my point is that we don’t live trends. We live individual lives. With individual experiences. I'm not going to tell my coworker, ‘don’t be so upset about this. The world is less homophobic today than it used to be. At least our employer usn’t going to fire us over this! Whoppee!’

I would not tell him that either. But here is what I think.

There was a time when most people would side with the mom who disowned her son.

Today most people would side with the son who came out.

To me, as an long time supporter of GLBTQIIA rights, that is a huge shift.

When I was in college we as students were fighting for "domestic partner benefits" for profs, staff, and graduate assistants. We teamed up with the faculty and staff unions and after pleading our case all the way up the line, protesting, writing letters, building alliances, and so forth we stormed a board of trustees meeting. We committed civil disobedience. When the board tried to hold their meeting with us there, we all put tape over our mouths (as they refused us the right to speak at the meetings even when we applied through normal channels).

Then, when the media was snapping pics, pulling out microphones, and turning their cameras on us I started humming the national anthem under the tape. I put my hand over my heart and stood up straight.

And every other protester followed suit. It was a loud, profound plea to the tune of our country, to the tune of freedom.

After the last note was hummed, the board walked out.

Within a couple weeks and a little more pressure domestic partner benefits were awarded. This was long before gay marriage was a reality.

So jp1, for a str8 ally I was right on the front line.

[LDAHL]

I would not tell him that either. But here is what I think.

There was a time when most people would side with the mom who disowned her son.

Today most people would side with the son who came out.

To me, as an long time supporter of GLBTQIIA rights, that is a huge shift.

When I was in college we as students were fighting for "domestic partner benefits" for profs, staff, and graduate assistants. We teamed up with the faculty and staff unions and after pleading our case all the way up the line, protesting, writing letters, building alliances, and so forth we stormed a board of trustees meeting. We committed civil disobedience. When the board tried to hold their meeting with us there, we all put tape over our mouths (as they refused us the right to speak at the meetings even when we applied through normal channels).

Then, when the media was snapping pics, pulling out microphones, and turning their cameras on us I started humming the national anthem under the tape. I put my hand over my heart and stood up straight.

And every other protester followed suit. It was a loud, profound plea to the tune of our country, to the tune of freedom.

After the last note was hummed, the board walked out.

Within a couple weeks and a little more pressure domestic partner benefits were awarded. This was long before gay marriage was a reality.

So jp1, for a str8 ally I was right on the front line.

There was s scene like that in “Animal House”.

[iris lilies]

Valid criticism here. Point taken.
Of course you would take a point from a man! Ha ha.

[Teacher Terry]

UL, I read the entire thread and stand by what I said. Don’t accuse people of not reading because they don’t agree with you. I think you would be a difficult person to be friends with.

[iris lilies]

UL, I read the entire thread and stand by what I said. Don’t accuse people of not reading because they don’t agree with you. I think you would be a difficult person to be friends with.
And I disagree. I could easily be friends with UL because I am not emotionally invested in concepts of victimhood and other common social concepts. I admitt that I probably have a couple deeply held values and it would annoy the hell out of me if he was badgering me in an intellectual discussion about what is a deeply emotional idea. But for the most part, our daily discussions would be fine.

Maybe the question is: could I have a deep friendship with UL? Maybe not, Because maybe he doesn’t know when to back off of extremely emotional issues for his friends.But how many deep friendships do we actually have in our lives? Not many.

[JaneV2.0]

And I disagree. I could easily be friends with UL because I am not emotionally invested in concepts of victimhood and other common social concepts. I admitted that I probably have a couple deeply held values and it would annoy the hell out of me if he was badgering me in an intellectual discussion about what is a deeply emotional idea. But For the most part, our daily discussions would be fine.

Maybe the question is: could I have a deep friendship with UL? Maybe not, Because maybe he doesn’t know when to back off of extremely emotional issues for his friends.But how many deep friendships do we actually have in our lives? Not many.

I'm not "invested" in "concepts of victimhood" --I've successfully arranged my life so as not to be a victim, so far. But I know victims when I see them, and I help out when I can. I wouldn't choose as a friend someone who endlessly badgered me in a conversation--intelectual, emotional, or otherwise. Period.

[bae]

I would not tell him that either. But here is what I think.

There was a time when most people would side with the mom who disowned her son.

Today most people would side with the son who came out.

To me, as an long time supporter of GLBTQIIA rights, that is a huge shift.


I had a long discussion with my father last night on a very related topic. He is gay. I have been collecting his stories, those of his husband, and those of their friends for some time. My father is 77 years old.

When he was in his 20s, he faced losing everything if he came out - his job, his community, his life. Possibly jail time, depending on the circumstances. Just when headway was being made for gay rights, the AIDS epidemic hit. I was a large portion of my father's friends and social circle wither away and die. It was much more personal for him, I was just a kid.

Part of our discussion last night revolved around his concept that "they'd pretty much won", which centers around the privileged white upper-middle-class male gays embracing a very binary view of the world, and defining "winning" as embracing the heteronormative view of "marriage", and integrating into a very patriarchal binary society. While selling out queer folks, intersex folks, trans folks, and a lot of other folks.

Pride events have turned into consumerist frenzies for wealthy vacationing gays, and those who are still heavily oppressed, or invisible, are pushed into the margins.

So, it was an interesting conversation. Yes, things are "better" for some, for others the situation isn't greatly improved, and the administration's recent natterings have a distinct tinge of Berlin in the 30s about to fall to the nationalists and the queer life of the city destroyed in bonfires and beatings.

[iris lilies]

Badgering of any kind is annoying.

I have a new friend, someone I am wary about. Wary, because I suspect badgering will be her MO. She seems to do this from a position of good intent, but if I have a friend to whom I have to say “no” too often, that friend exhausts me. And pretty soon we are not friends.

[jp1]

I had a long discussion with my father last night on a very related topic. He is gay. I have been collecting his stories, those of his husband, and those of their friends for some time. My father is 77 years old.

When he was in his 20s, he faced losing everything if he came out - his job, his community, his life. Possibly jail time, depending on the circumstances. Just when headway was being made for gay rights, the AIDS epidemic hit. I was a large portion of my father's friends and social circle wither away and die. It was much more personal for him, I was just a kid.

Part of our discussion last night revolved around his concept that "they'd pretty much won", which centers around the privileged white upper-middle-class male gays embracing a very binary view of the world, and defining "winning" as embracing the heteronormative view of "marriage", and integrating into a very patriarchal binary society. While selling out queer folks, intersex folks, trans folks, and a lot of other folks.

Pride events have turned into consumerist frenzies for wealthy vacationing gays, and those who are still heavily oppressed, or invisible, are pushed into the margins.

So, it was an interesting conversation. Yes, things are "better" for some, for others the situation isn't greatly improved, and the administration's recent natterings have a distinct tinge of Berlin in the 30s about to fall to the nationalists and the queer life of the city destroyed in bonfires and beatings.

My best friend and I had a similar conversation recently. He's about 20 years older than me and had similar thoughts as your father's about his past. One of the things he thinks will happen in 20-30 years time, assuming that trump doesn't succeed in rolling back the clock, is that the upcoming generation of gay white men will largely abandon the gay rights movement because they won't think it matters to them.

[JaneV2.0]

Badgering of any kind is annoying.

I have a new friend, someone I am wary about. Wary, because I suspect badgering will be her MO. She seems to do this from a position of good intent, but if I have a friend to whom I have to say “no” too often, that friend exhausts me. And pretty soon we are not friends.

"Friends" aren't exhausting, generally. Good luck!

[bae]

One of the things he thinks will happen in 20-30 years time, assuming that trump doesn't succeed in rolling back the clock, is that the upcoming generation of gay white men will largely abandon the gay rights movement because they won't think it matters to them.

I have been using this happily as an approachable textbook for some educational efforts I am engaged in in my until-recently secret life:

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51XfilV9rJL._SX343_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

[Teacher Terry]

My step son is gay and married a few years ago. They are both professionals and so glad that they don’t need to hide it. However, it took his husband a long time to tell his parents because they grew up and still live in Russia. Russia is very anti-gay. His dad was upset at first but came around pretty fast. He is a only child. They came out here for their son’s graduation and they were very nice people.

[LDAHL]

Is "let's agree to disagree" badgering?

To me, one of the great joys of a solid friendship is having your assumptions and conceits challenged. This works best with your really old friends who knew you in your callow, self-important youth and can readily see through your pretensions. Long term friendship maintenance programs are one of the best investments you can make.

[Ultralight]

There was s scene like that in “Animal House”.
College. :)

[Ultralight]

Of course you would take a point from a man! Ha ha.

I see what you're doing! haha

[Ultralight]

UL, I read the entire thread and stand by what I said. Don’t accuse people of not reading because they don’t agree with you. I think you would be a difficult person to be friends with.

Are you invalidating my experience on this thread?

[Ultralight]

Maybe the question is: could I have a deep friendship with UL? Maybe not, Because maybe he doesn’t know when to back off of extremely emotional issues for his friends.

I want to point out a couple things.

Remember, I asked my former friend several times about just quitting the topic, moving on, agreeing to disagree, etc. She kept at it over and over. I even said to her: "I am not sure if you want drop this topic because you keep reengaging me on it again."

In real life, I think because we see each other's facial expressions I rarely have intense debates. Once or twice a month I meet up with my friend "Good Jeff" (I also have a friend called "Evil Jeff". Good Jeff and I debate, go rounds over various things. His latest hobby horse is letting kids "transition" if they want to. We debated it. We still disagree on part of it.

But like clockwork, we'll still meet for dinner. Maybe we debate. Maybe we talk about dating, marriages, food, last summer's garden, the atheist community, etc.

[Ultralight]

I'm not "invested" in "concepts of victimhood" --I've successfully arranged my life so as not to be a victim, so far. But I know victims when I see them, and I help out when I can. I wouldn't choose as a friend someone who endlessly badgered me in a conversation--intelectual, emotional, or otherwise. Period.

So you are saying I should not have chosen my former friend to be my friend in the first place?

[Ultralight]

I had a long discussion with my father last night on a very related topic. He is gay. I have been collecting his stories, those of his husband, and those of their friends for some time. My father is 77 years old.

When he was in his 20s, he faced losing everything if he came out - his job, his community, his life. Possibly jail time, depending on the circumstances. Just when headway was being made for gay rights, the AIDS epidemic hit. I was a large portion of my father's friends and social circle wither away and die. It was much more personal for him, I was just a kid.

Part of our discussion last night revolved around his concept that "they'd pretty much won", which centers around the privileged white upper-middle-class male gays embracing a very binary view of the world, and defining "winning" as embracing the heteronormative view of "marriage", and integrating into a very patriarchal binary society. While selling out queer folks, intersex folks, trans folks, and a lot of other folks.

Pride events have turned into consumerist frenzies for wealthy vacationing gays, and those who are still heavily oppressed, or invisible, are pushed into the margins.

So, it was an interesting conversation. Yes, things are "better" for some, for others the situation isn't greatly improved, and the administration's recent natterings have a distinct tinge of Berlin in the 30s about to fall to the nationalists and the queer life of the city destroyed in bonfires and beatings.

This may sound simplistic. But hey, this is a simple living forum.

I hope that someday whether a person is gay or trans or queer or black or atheist or Hindu or whatever just is not important. These characteristics would simply not be an issue in getting a job or an education or a house in a certain neighborhood or when buying a cake from a baker. I'd hope that when someone's mother finds out they are gay she is like "no big deal."

[Teacher Terry]

UL, sometimes you make my head hurt :))

[iris lilies]

I want to point out a couple things.

Remember, I asked my former friend several times about just quitting the topic, moving on, agreeing to disagree, etc. She kept at it over and over. I even said to her: "I am not sure if you want drop this topic because you keep reengaging me on it again."

In real life, I think because we see each other's facial expressions I rarely have intense debates. Once or twice a month I meet up with my friend "Good Jeff" (I also have a friend called "Evil Jeff". Good Jeff and I debate, go rounds over various things. His latest hobby horse is letting kids "transition" if they want to. We debated it. We still disagree on part of it.

But like clockwork, we'll still meet for dinner. Maybe we debate. Maybe we talk about dating, marriages, food, last summer's garden, the atheist community, etc.

we used to have friends “ good John” and “Bad john.”

Good John had been jailed for child moleststion. Bad John let his dog off leash regularly. These were neighborhood names.

I think you can guess the values of our neighborhood from these names.

That was Just an aside, now back to our regularly scheduled discussion topic...

[Teacher Terry]

Definitely time for a new neighborhood!

[jp1]

This may sound simplistic. But hey, this is a simple living forum.

I hope that someday whether a person is gay or trans or queer or black or atheist or Hindu or whatever just is not important. These characteristics would simply not be an issue in getting a job or an education or a house in a certain neighborhood or when buying a cake from a baker. I'd hope that when someone's mother finds out they are gay she is like "no big deal."

I wish we lived in that world. Alan has posted here before that he already treats people this way. And he probably does. But a lot of people don’t. And people who are in the minority in one way or another dont have the luxury of pretending that race or sexuality or whatever doesnt matter. Because they don’t set the rules that society follows. The minority has to worry that they won’t be able to buy a cake, or that they will be forced to explain why their driver’s license says male but they present as female when they are just trying to buy a beer at a bar or whatever.

[bae]

And people who are in the minority in one way or another dont have the luxury of pretending that race or sexuality or whatever doesnt matter. Because they don’t set the rules that society follows.

I have a friend in Seattle, who is quite an accomplished artist, with a great job, and all the obvious external trappings of success and "normalcy". Yet when I am visiting her and it gets to be after dark, she always asks that I or someone else escort her home, and not for hanky-panky - she's just afraid of violence directed at her, and she is a member of a very vulnerable population. And her fear is not without reason, when she didn't yet have "passing privilege", she had a horrific time or two.

[Teacher Terry]

Bae, that’s so sad and disgusting. Why do people even care about others sexuality, etc. Also scary is people of color being abused in public for just going about their own business. This won’t be solved in my lifetime.

[Ultralight]

jp1:

You should totally read this and take heart!

http://www.people-press.org/2017/06/26/support-for-same-sex-marriage-grows-even-among-groups-that-had-been-skeptical/