Gaslighting

[frugal-one]

Not to go into all kinds of detail but talked to a therapist on the phone recently that said I was being "gaslighted." Told me to keep my distance from that person.

Would appreciate others experiences.

[Ultralight]

One of my coworkers thought "gaslighting" was illegal until just a few months ago.

[Gardnr]

If that is the case, I encourage you to read up so you can cut her/him off at the pass. https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/blog/here-there-and-everywhere/201701/11-warning-signs-gaslighting

[Tybee]

Yes, I have experienced this. It seems to be the tool of choice of narcissistic personalities. Reading up on narcissistic personalities may help a lot, too. This book might be helpful too:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/099862134X/ref=oh_aui_search_detailpage?ie=UTF8&psc=1

[Zoe Girl]

Plenty of experience here, anything in particular like how to cut ties or how to recover or how to deal with the 'flying monkeys' that support this crap?

To start just believe in yourself, keep a journal or notes of what is happening even if you never use it, don't get into arguments expecting anything from them, and recognize that most people would rather believe you are crazy or emotional than this person is really doing what you say. That last one was very hard to deal with. If you have legal ties such as marriage or work do NOT underestimate them. They are very capable of remembering things but choose to pretend they forget.

you can PM me if you want to keep this off-group but I am willing to respond here as well.

ZG

[Ultralight]

In your own words, what exactly is gaslighting?

[bae]

See also:

https://www.lifehack.org/articles/communication/ten-examples-crazy-making-relationships.html

[JaneV2.0]

I, for one, am delighted to see this oh-so evocative word make a comeback!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslight_(1940_film)

[razz]

I had no idea what gaslighting was or that it existed but have encountered manipulative individuals. Interesting the topics that are brought up for discussion.

[mschrisgo2]

Another resource for you www.melanietoniaevans.com

I've had too much experience with gaslighting.
The most difficult was from boss at a job that I really loved; ultimately, I quit to get away.
Now I can spot it a mile away!

[Zoe Girl]

Another resource for you www.melanietoniaevans.com (http://www.melanietoniaevans.com)

I've had too much experience with gaslighting.
The most difficult was from boss at a job that I really loved; ultimately, I quit to get away.
Now I can spot it a mile away!

Oh yes, that was my last year and I am a couple months away. Loving my new job, sounds like many others left which is sad for the programming. I can see it, this last time I thought I could handle it until I got a new job but he was steps ahead of me.

[Tybee]

I think the therapist's idea of keeping your distance from this person is a really good one. It's not that you can undue all the damage just by getting away, but it can remove you as a target, and help you to start healing.

[Zoe Girl]

I will say that although I do not see any wonderful benefit to being a target of a gaslighter, I am also able to see this pattern now clearly. It helped not take too much too personally at the last job (okay I did a lot in some ways). Seeing these patterns can help support others, my daughter for example who just went through a bad break up. Politically I don't talk about what I see all the time because in general people don't believe you. That is the most maddening thing, some of it seems so clear and yet it can be almost impossible to make a dent in how people want to see things.

[SteveinMN]

Gad, I wish we could post some of these definitional articles outside polling places next week...

[Zoe Girl]

Gad, I wish we could post some of these definitional articles outside polling places next week...

no f**ing kidding, unfortunately I have so little faith right now

[beckyliz]

Gad, I wish we could post some of these definitional articles outside polling places next week...

Preach.

[Tybee]

OP, can you stay away from the person who is gaslighting you? or must you remain connected?
I ask because my current gaslighter is someone that I cannot get away from. You can't divorce family members without divorcing the rest of the family.
So I have to learn to manage the situation.

[frugal-one]

OP, can you stay away from the person who is gaslighting you? or must you remain connected?
I ask because my current gaslighter is someone that I cannot get away from. You can't divorce family members without divorcing the rest of the family.
So I have to learn to manage the situation.

Unfortunately, it is my only child who is being manipulated by SO. This is my only family and grandchild is involved. I never heard the term gaslighting before. I have been reading on line and have books ordered from the library. It truly is breaking my heart.

[Gardnr]

Unfortunately, it is my only child who is being manipulated by SO. This is my only family and grandchild is involved. I never heard the term gaslighting before. I have been reading on line and have books ordered from the library. It truly is breaking my heart.

Sounds like you need to do an intervention and stop the behavior. Don't allow your child/grandchild to be treated this was by your SO. As long as you stay quiet, you are condoning the behavior. We teach people how to treat us. I am a firm believer in this. If you are witnessing this behavior, silence approves it.

[iris lilies]

Sounds like you need to do an intervention and stop the behavior. Don't allow your child/grandchild to be treated this was by your SO. As long as you stay quiet, you are condoning the behavior. We teach people how to treat us. I am a firm believer in this. If you are witnessing this behavior, silence approves it.

depends. if the gaslighter has, in any way, control of the grandchild and his visits to grandmother, play along in order to retain access to grandchild. The OP’s daughter is a grown woman, and she can handle herself accordingly. If she wishes to stay in that relationship she gets to do it. Stupid though that may be, she gets to be stupid.

At this point it is really about the grandchild, providing as much love and stability in his life as possible. Do whatever is best for grandchild. Do whatever it takes to have access and to get care of him regularly and if that means sucking up to
Gaslighter Dude, so be it. Make a game of it.

I dont see how Gardnr’s advice can possibly hold up,since you cannot stop the
Gaslighter dude from lying (an “intervention? “ Really?) you can only remove yourself from his sphere of influence.

My close friend has been going through this with her mentally ill daughter who “gaslights” (i.e. lies) and she now just does what is necessary to care for her grandhild. Fortunately, her daughter’s SO is a standup guy who takes good care of this child, all the while tolerating his crazy ass girlfriend, her multiple boyfriends, her lies, her cheating. That young man needs an intervention for his own mental health but really who cares in the end about these young adults and their stupid choices. When they bring small children into their circus, thats when it is a tragedy.

[Teacher Terry]

IZl, great advice! I think G misinterpreted who the bad guy is.

[Gardnr]

IZl, great advice! I think G misinterpreted who the bad guy is.

She clearly states that the SO is the manipulator. What did I miss?

[iris lily]

She clearly states that the SO is the manipulator. What did I miss?
I interpretted this to be the SO of her daughter. OP has a son in law who gaslights, or lies.

[Teacher Terry]

G, I thought you think it’s the posters SO but it’s her daughter’s.

[frugal-one]

My son, his SO and their grandchild are involved. What I think is happening is that son is being influenced by SO to get rid of us (his only family). I have heard of women whose men alienate them from family but in this case it is the male being brainwashed to do so. The gaslighting is being done by my son at the direction of SO. The therapist picked up on the gaslighting. I never heard the term before.

[iris lilies]

My son, his SO and their grandchild are involved. What I think is happening is that son is being influenced by SO to get rid of us (his only family). I have heard of women whose men alienate them from family but in this case it is the male being brainwashed to do so. The gaslighting is being done by my son at the direction of SO. The therapist picked up on the gaslighting. I never heard the term before.

To be clear, the child in the picture is your great grandchild?

[Teacher Terry]

My brothers wife went on a campaign to get rid of his family shortly after they married. She would lie to him and say that we said terrible things to her when we didn’t. He believed her. Eventually we didn’t see him for about 20 years until they divorced. I really feel for you.

[frugal-one]

My brothers wife went on a campaign to get rid of his family shortly after they married. She would lie to him and say that we said terrible things to her when we didn’t. He believed her. Eventually we didn’t see him for about 20 years until they divorced. I really feel for you.

This is exactly what is happening. Son's SO and my grandchild are involved.

[iris lilies]

This is exactly what is happening. Son's SO and my grandchild are involved.
How old is your grandchild? How long have they been together? (not married?) Why arent they married?

[Teacher Terry]

My parents barely knew there grandchild from him. Thankfully they had my kids. By the time he came back my dad was dead. We tried so hard to get along with that bitch but in the end she won. I am so sorry this is happening to you.

[frugal-one]

Sounds like you need to do an intervention and stop the behavior. Don't allow your child/grandchild to be treated this was by your SO. As long as you stay quiet, you are condoning the behavior. We teach people how to treat us. I am a firm believer in this. If you are witnessing this behavior, silence approves it.

Obviously, you have not had this happen to you. It is easy to preach when you have never had the experience.

[Teacher Terry]

G, doesn’t have kids. What a horrible situation to be in. My parents really missed my brother although they had 2 other kids. If this is your only child it’s doubly sad.

[iris lilies]

G, doesn’t have kids. What a horrible situation to be in. My parents really missed my brother although they had 2 other kids. If this is your only child it’s doubly sad.

Boy, you are really flogging that no-kids-you-cannot-possibly-understand idea.

I am not insulted because I am not easily insulted. The idea is just silly.

[Yppej]

She has dogs. She can understand.

[Gardnr]

Boy, you are really flogging that no-kids-you-cannot-possibly-understand idea.

I am not insulted because I am not easily insulted. The idea is just silly.

It's just getting so damn old. Been hearing it for decades. And I agree the accusation is silly and beyond. But you heard it here and many agree.

I have dealt with many unhealthy behaviors and I deal with them head on. I wont' be a victim and I won't condone or support manipulative behavior.

[Gardnr]

Obviously, you have not had this happen to you. It is easy to preach when you have never had the experience.

I'm not preaching. You asked for feedback. Perhaps seeking out a professional counselor and talking through with coping mechanisms would be better for you? Expand on that phonecall.

[Teacher Terry]

Other parents can chime in but I always say if you don’t have kids you under estimate the love you have for them. Pick the person you love most in the world and then multiply that by a million and you get the depth of the love. I love all my dogs dearly but I would kill them all in a instant if it meant one of my kids could live. When people lose a child their lives are never the same. My kids are choosing not to have kids and so did my sister which I totally support.

[Yppej]

But some people don't love their kids. The rape, molest, even murder them.

[iris lilies]

But some people don't love their kids. The rape, molest, even murder them.
But if you asked them, a fair number of those people would say that they love their kids.

[Gardnr]

When people lose a child their lives are never the same.

I understand this very well. My oldest brother died of suicide in 1994 while Dad was actively dying of cancer and he and Mom got to deal with it along with us 5 living kids. Mom was still in agony of his death when she was actively dying of HER cancer 13 years later and I was caring for her in her home.

I have more life experiences than you might possibly imagine. To think I can't understand is insulting.

Say what you want. I won't be responding any more on this thread.

[bae]

Given what I know now, I would run, not walk, from anyone gaslighting me.

[Yppej]

But if you asked them, a fair number of those people would say that they love their kids.

True, they would say that, but trust me you love your dogs more than they love their kids.

[JaneV2.0]

I'm sure parents' love for their offspring is as variable as any other human emotion, so I don't buy the "multiply it by a million" trope.

I remember years ago an American advice columnist posed the question "If you had it to do over again, would you have children?" and 70% of respondents said no. Of course that was a self-selected sample, and one probably highly motivated to answer.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I'm sure parents' love for their offspring is as variable as any other human emotion, so I don't buy the "multiply it by a million" trope.

+1

[iris lilies]

In your own words, what exactly is gaslighting?

I am not the OP, but I would define it as systematic lying, usually for the purpose of poisoning a personal relationship.

Gaslighting is the current pop psych term but chronic liars have been around forever.

[catherine]

I am not the OP, but I would define it as systematic lying, usually for the purpose of poisoning a personal relationship.

Gaslighting is the current pop psych term but chronic liars have been around forever.

I think it's more than lying: I think it's a calculated effort to manipulate another person's view of reality. The effect is the person starts to doubt themselves and their own beliefs. Example: A husband is drinking too much and the wife brings it to his attention. He will gaslight by saying "If it weren't for your lousy housekeeping, I wouldn't drink. You're the reason I go out to the bars. Can't you even see what a dump this place is? What's the matter with you?" This manipulation is often persistent and chips away at the receiver's self-esteem and even sanity.

[JaneV2.0]

It's not really a "current pop psych term," since my parents used it when I was a child. As I referenced with a link above, It came from a 1940 movie in which a husband tried to make his wife believe she was going crazy--ie "gaslighted" her. I don't know the particulars, having never seen the movie.

[iris lilies]

It's not really a "current pop psych term," since my parents used it when I was a child. As I referenced with a link above, It came from a 1940 movie in which a husband tried to make his wife believe she was going crazy--ie "gaslighted" her. I don't know the particulars, having never seen the movie.
Yes, I read the history of this before this thread even got started. But it is very widespread use I think only with in the last couple of years.

[Zoe Girl]

I agree it is more than lying, but lying in a way that makes you doubt yourself specifically. There is also a lot of overlap with narcissist behavior such as taking a very small and unimportant thing and blowing that up to deflect from a real concern by the target person. It is amazing to me how many people will just go along with the gaslighter. My ex and I had a counselor who could care less that I caught him in a lie to destabalize me, she went back to focusing on problems being 50-50. I walked out of the session. You can actually do that!

Bae when I figured it out in my last job I thought I could handle it by having knowledge. No way, I would do almost anything to get away when I recognized it now. I am building savings and keeping my resume up. The unfortunate part is that I have been single 12 years and still don't have trust.

[iris lilies]

Few posts here have attempted to actually help the OP.

I would be worried if, as the OP, my son is not married to his SO for reasons of tighter legal bond to his child. The gaslighting mom could decide tomorrow to take off with their child. While I am sure the courts deal plenty with non-married parents, having it all tied up in a a tidy legal bow adds strength to his case.

[JaneV2.0]

I didn't offer help because 1) I had too few details to work with, and 2) I'm not sure there's much you can do save watch it unfold, offer support, and hope the situation resolves itself.

[frugal-one]

Given what I know now, I would run, not walk, from anyone gaslighting me.

Even if it was your daughter, Bae? And, you had no other relatives. Never see your grandchild again?

Thanks for the web links and insights. I will figure this out.

[iris lilies]

I didn't offer help because 1) I had too few details to work with, and 2) I'm not sure there's much you can do save watch it unfold, offer support, and hope the situation resolves itself.
Yes, true for most situations.

I still think there is some validity to sucking ip to the narcissistic gaslighter for the purpose of stsying conmected to son and grandson, but that is hard to continue for any length of time.

[Teacher Terry]

My family put up with it because everyone obviously wanted to see the kids. I got sick of it and cut all ties but I had my own kids. My parents put up with it until the bitch convinced my brother to dump them. They wanted to see the grandkids of course. No real advice from people because they hold all the cards because of the grandchild.

[Yppej]

Few posts here have attempted to actually help the OP.

I would be worried if, as the OP, my son is not married to his SO for reasons of tighter legal bond to his child. The gaslighting mom could decide tomorrow to take off with their child. While I am sure the courts deal plenty with non-married parents, having it all tied up in a a tidy legal bow adds strength to his case.

I spent more than my fair share of time in probate and family court hearing cases ahead of mine. Other than the court using a different color folder for children whose birth was out of wedlock I could not discern any difference in the way cases were handled. The focus was on the child's interest, not the parents' marital status. Parentage is easily proven with DNA and rights follow from that. Your state or province may vary.

[bae]

Even if it was your daughter, Bae? And, you had no other relatives. Never see your grandchild again?



Yes. I can't help other people if I don't save myself first.

(For the record, I once did not interact with my sister during her Evil Period for about 15 years. No calls, no letters, no visits, nada. It was simply too risky.)

[Teacher Terry]

Cutting out a sibling is much easier than a child.

[ke3]

I actually haven't posted here in years, but was feeling so anxious about the election tomorrow (I am a liberal) that I thought I would visit my old online community, and was impulsed-itemed (just made up a verb) into answering this one. Re: gaslighting, I believe I have been very subtly manipulated in this way for years. It is subtle enough that I wasn't able to be sure it was happening until I started emailing myself at every instance, for several years, and am now sure. For the moment, I will remain in my situation in order to keep family harmony, which does exist (and there are a lot of good times, just some infuriating moments as well), until our youngest is in college in 2 1/2 years. It is heartbreaking to even think about, because leaving dissolves all the holiday happiness that I would normally look forward to. It also would cut me off from my grandchildren from my stepdaughter. And I agree with Teacher Terry: I'm already estranged from my sister, but that is barely a blip on my radar compared to how awful it would be to cut myself off from one of my own children.

[Teacher Terry]

I am so sorry you are going through this.

[frugal-one]

Update.... took therapist's advice and stayed away. DS came alone for Xmas eve and a few days later with GD.... it was lovely. I still am not trusting and know he is a "flying monkey". I talked to a therapist in Oct and cannot get in to see her until Jan. I feel better knowing what I am up against.

[KayLR]

I have not replied (or really read until today) to this post, because for me it is so painful. I am being gaslighted by my own daughter whom I've always adored. It happened like the flip of a switch, and I believe now it's due to her newest relationship with her former boss.

She has 3 children whom I have not seen for 20 months and have been ordered (by her) not to contact. My greatest hope at this point is that the older boys will remember me and wish to contact me when they're 18+. They're 17 and 14 now.

She wrote to me last week (after I'd attempted to send a gift to the boys) informing me of what a horrible mother I've been; how selfish I've always been, and ---this really gets me---how I NEVER showed her any affection. Uh, I nursed her until she was 3 yrs old, for crying out loud. I'm not going to go into any defense here; I know I made mistakes, but did the best I could with two very different, yet nearly incorrigible girls--alone. I know I was not a rotten mother. But she is really making me doubt myself and wondering about the veracity of her accusations. There's your gaslighting.

My other daughter is incredulous of the whole thing. She's written her off as a wacko. Actually, I do think she needs mental counseling, but I fear it's really the new-ish relationship. We were fine until he came along. As her boss he pulled some shitty stuff on her which I expressed at the time my worry about her continuing to work for him. He was gaslighting HER.

I've been to counseling; I've been advised to stay away, not contact but not close any doors. Also to concentrate on my own healing and find joy wherever I can and stick to those things. It's my New Year's resolution. To heal and find my way. After her recent email, I went to a very dark place, struggled to sleep for nights. It's getting better.

[nswef]

KayRL, What a sad turn of events. It sounds as if you are taking all the right steps to protect yourself and the relationship if ever it changes. I'm am sorry to hear of this and wish you strength.

[Teacher Terry]

Kay, that’s really awful. I am so sorry. I am glad you have a good relationship with your other daughter. Hopefully the grandchildren will come around. A similar thing happened to a good friend of mine. First she lost a son at age 4 and her daughter was always close. Then her daughter had 2 girls and my friend babysat a lot,etc. She was a good mom and grandma. Then out of the blue she turned on her when the girls were in their teens.

[razz]

So sad to read so many difficult situations. Life should not be like this.

[Tammy]

Those teenage grandsons will remember you. No doubt. I’m sorry you’re going through this.

[frugal-one]

I have not replied (or really read until today) to this post, because for me it is so painful. I am being gaslighted by my own daughter whom I've always adored. It happened like the flip of a switch, and I believe now it's due to her newest relationship with her former boss.

She has 3 children whom I have not seen for 20 months and have been ordered (by her) not to contact. My greatest hope at this point is that the older boys will remember me and wish to contact me when they're 18+. They're 17 and 14 now.

She wrote to me last week (after I'd attempted to send a gift to the boys) informing me of what a horrible mother I've been; how selfish I've always been, and ---this really gets me---how I NEVER showed her any affection. Uh, I nursed her until she was 3 yrs old, for crying out loud. I'm not going to go into any defense here; I know I made mistakes, but did the best I could with two very different, yet nearly incorrigible girls--alone. I know I was not a rotten mother. But she is really making me doubt myself and wondering about the veracity of her accusations. There's your gaslighting.

My other daughter is incredulous of the whole thing. She's written her off as a wacko. Actually, I do think she needs mental counseling, but I fear it's really the new-ish relationship. We were fine until he came along. As her boss he pulled some shitty stuff on her which I expressed at the time my worry about her continuing to work for him. He was gaslighting HER.

I've been to counseling; I've been advised to stay away, not contact but not close any doors. Also to concentrate on my own healing and find joy wherever I can and stick to those things. It's my New Year's resolution. To heal and find my way. After her recent email, I went to a very dark place, struggled to sleep for nights. It's getting better.

I am sorry you are going through this too. I have watched YouTube by Inner Integration to get some insight. YLMV My thoughts are with you.

[cindycindy]

Long time lurker here. Have gone through exact situation over the last 5 years. Involves 2 small grandchildren. Keep up with therapy. I recommend “Done with Crying” by Sheri McGregor. She also has a website with a forum. Sending hugs to anyone else dealing with this.

[razz]

Long time lurker here. Have gone through exact situation over the last 5 years. Involves 2 small grandchildren. Keep up with therapy. I recommend “Done with Crying” by Sheri McGregor. She also has a website with a forum. Sending hugs to anyone else dealing with this.
As I am not familiar with estrangement issues, I looked up the author and her articles. Very powerful when there is so little written elsewhere on the topic.

[cindycindy]

Another resource is Joshua Coleman's "When Parents Hurt". Parental estrangement has become very common; the author calls it "a silent epidemic".

[iris lilies]

Those therapists who are advising to stay away from the gaslighters and who support parents whose children have cut them off are the same therapists who advise the children to cut them off.

our neice is estranged from her parents. There is no obvious reason for it. Actually,
I will say there is no reason for it.

This neice, her mother, her father—all of them— are without substance abuse, mental illness, wacko lifestyle or philosophy, outlandish issues or obvious problems. All are educzted, productive members of society. It is a big mystery to us why this split exists. But it has been going on for a dozen years so at this point, it will not likely be solved. She didnt even have a rocky relationship with her parents, she was bery close to her mother until about age 20.

Of course I dont have insight into what really happened, and I do not advocate staying tied to family members who do one harm. I just dont think there was much harm done here.

[catherine]

I have two friends that I used to work with and coincidentally they had both experienced estrangement from their daughters, under similar circumstances. They had gotten divorced when the daughters were around 12 or 13, and the girls in both situations went to their respective father's home for regular visitiation, and eventually the girls chose to live with their fathers. I'm pretty sure in one case, the father poisoned the daughter against the mother--I can't remember what happened in the other case. I knew both women very well, and liked and respected them very much. They were loving, smart, hard-working, nurturing people. In fact one was an RN and the other a psychologist.

From my outsider POV, I could not understand what they could have done to deserve such pain, and such hatred and anger from their children. One of the friends attended therapy with the daughter while all this was going on, but it didn't help. In fact, the therapist seemed to "side" with the daughter, but of course, I only have my friend's perspective, which was clearly biased.

They lost out on contact with these daughters throughout the girls' growing up. But in both of my friends' cases, once the girls reached adulthood, they reconciled over time and wound up with good, healthy relationships.

I am so sorry for all of you who are going through this.

[KayLR]

Long time lurker here. Have gone through exact situation over the last 5 years. Involves 2 small grandchildren. Keep up with therapy. I recommend “Done with Crying” by Sheri McGregor. She also has a website with a forum. Sending hugs to anyone else dealing with this.

Thank you...I had just ordered (and received last week) this book and it's amazing how spot-on she knows this phenomenon (if that's what you want to call it.) Will look up her website someday when I feel strong enough.

[iris lilies]

I have two friends that I used to work with and coincidentally they had both experienced estrangement from their daughters, under similar circumstances. They had gotten divorced when the daughters were around 12 or 13, and the girls in both situations went to their respective father's home for regular visitiation, and eventually the girls chose to live with their fathers. I'm pretty sure in one case, the father poisoned the daughter against the mother--I can't remember what happened in the other case. I knew both women very well, and liked and respected them very much. They were loving, smart, hard-working, nurturing people. In fact one was an RN and the other a psychologist.

From my outsider POV, I could not understand what they could have done to deserve such pain, and such hatred and anger from their children. One of the friends attended therapy with the daughter while all this was going on, but it didn't help. In fact, the therapist seemed to "side" with the daughter, but of course, I only have my friend's perspective, which was clearly biased.

They lost out on contact with these daughters throughout the girls' growing up. But in both of my friends' cases, once the girls reached adulthood, they reconciled over time and wound up with good, healthy relationships.

I am so sorry for all of you who are going through this.

That is more typical, the teen goes to live with the parent they do not know so well, teen get an earful of the foibles of the former custodial parent, and estrangement happens. Then reconciliation as teen comes i to maturity.

It is these out of the blue estrangements that are confoundong..

[frugal-one]

Well, there is no longer any communication. I contacted DS and he said he did not want to talk with me or his father. He had to go. Asked if we would ever see him again or our GD and he said he didn't know. All I could do is tell him I love him and will be here for him. Heartbreaking but there is nothing more I can do. He is our only family.

[NewGig]

One thing I know as a previously-abused person, afterwards it DOES stand out like a beacon when you encounter it again.

[iris lilies]

Feugal-one, this is too bad! Sorry to hear it.

[Tybee]

Well, there is no longer any communication. I contacted DS and he said he did not want to talk with me or his father. He had to go. Asked if we would ever see him again or our GD and he said he didn't know. All I could do is tell him I love him and will be here for him. Heartbreaking but there is nothing more I can do. He is our only family.

I am so sorry, frugal-one, that is terrible. I found a lot of comfort in the Coleman book When Parents Hurt-- it might help you, too.

[SteveinMN]

frugal-one, I'm sorry this is where the situation is now....

[KayLR]

Frugal-one, I feel your pain. It is the most heartbreaking, hurtful, and painful things anyone can know. I am healing, but there are triggers, and this virus situation isn't helping---but I will never totally heal, I'm afraid.