View Full Version : The United States of Masacres.
It's becoming a pretty unsafe place, along with being a circus. We're out of control for so many reasons. :(
Ultralight
10-29-18, 8:29am
It's becoming a pretty unsafe place, along with being a circus. We're out of control for so many reasons. :(
What are the top five things in the USA that kill people?
You tell me, and then we'll talk about those things, compared to slaughters of innocent people.
Yes more unsafe, and we keep thinking we are so special and great!
It seems that any public gathering place - church, school, etc - is fair game. Perhaps it has always been so and there are just more of us (and more guns) but why are there so many mentally unstable and broken people?
iris lilies
10-29-18, 10:22am
Yes more unsafe, and we keep thinking we are so special and great!
You dont have to think “we are so special and great.” You do you. In this country you can criticize it all you like. That is one of the things that make it special and great.
JaneV2.0
10-29-18, 10:50am
“We are the Trump vanguard. The left will say Trump is a nationalist and an implicit or quasi-racialist. Conservatives, because they are just so douchey, say Oh, no, of course not, he’s a constitutionalist, or whatever. We on the alt-right will say, He is a nationalist and he is a racialist. His movement is a white movement. Duh.” Looking very satisfied with himself, (Richard)Spencer paused and then said: “We give him a kind of permission.” --from Fire and Fury, by Michael Wolff
Violent "racialists" have been given permission--out of the mouth of a White House insider.
Don't give me that crap about "both sides do it." No president in my long memory has ever publicly avowed being a nationalist (Nazi)--never mind attacking the free press non-stop. "Fine people on both sides?" Bullshit. This is a replay of thirties' Germany. The world is watching in horror.
Teacher Terry
10-29-18, 10:58am
Jane, you nailed it!
I'm glad to see that Bend the Arc, a liberal Jewish organization, has stated that Trump isn't welcome in Pittsburgh until he explicitly denounces white Nationalism and stops targeting minorities, immigrants and refugees (https://www.vox.com/policy-and-politics/2018/10/29/18037574/bend-the-arc-pittsburgh-jewish-leaders-trump). More than 20,000 people have signed the petition.
It's way past time to drop the phony civility and call out Trump for what he is--a demagogue who has done nothing but sow fear, hatred and division since the moment he stepped on to the political stage. Anyone who does not explicitly reject him is complicit in his behavior.
HappyHiker
10-29-18, 11:17am
I think about this topic a lot these days. We have a political leader who seems to deliberately whip his supporters into acts of violence and hatred against the "other." The "other" being anyone non-white or progressive or in the media. This is horrid and I hope it ends soon. Please vote.
Looking back at our history, we've always been a violent nation. We've killed two presidents, a presidential candidate, a Black leader, and attempted murders of two other Presidents. And bombed an office building. And killed school kids.
We founded our nation and expanded Westward by decimating the indigent population who already lived here.
We've bombed Black churches in the 1960's during integration. We've hung and tortured the "other."
I won't go into several wars that, imho, shouldn't have been fought that resulted in the deaths of thousands of our young people and citizens of other nations.
The difference today is that we have a national leader who is condoning and encouraging our violent nature that simmers just beneath the surface. If only we had a "uniter" instead of a "divider." The potential ugliness of our future fills me with dread.
"United" States? Nope, just the opposite. This hurts.
What does the graph of the historical murder rate in the USA look like?
Bae, that's a similar question to what UL asked. I don't care what the total murder rate is. Sometimes bad people kill other bad people. Its the type of mass murders on total innocents that have become a frequent occurence that most of us are finding so unacceptable. So it's okay to accept these things, or not be outraged by them, if our murder rate has gone down from previous years, or not nearly as bad as some other countries?
I'm just asking for data.
What's your data?
Who cares about data?? If your loved ones were massacred, how important would data be? I think I know where you're getting to.......that the murder rate has gone down, or something like that. So that means we shouldn't be outraged or try to do anything about it? I'm not sure what your point is, other than "the murder rate is going down, so don't worry about it."?
If you're just looking for data......you no doubt already know the data, so I think you're trying to say something else. Just say it.
What does the graph of the historical murder rate in the USA look like?
It's gone down. So we should be complacent about it? That's like arguing that because we've reduced deaths from infection, we can afford to be a lot more casual about sterilizing surgical instruments.
By the same token, the numbers of people in the world living in dire poverty has plummeted over the past few decades. So let's stop fighting poverty.
What does the graph of the historical murder rate in the USA look like?
It might be as relevant or more so to look at mass shootings rather than just murder. That seems to be the trend item these days.
I've seen the news cite the increase in hate crimes, but that could seem to have a fairly wide definition by some accounts.
JaneV2.0
10-29-18, 12:04pm
It might be more relevant to consider so-called "hate crimes," since that's what we're seeing more of.
I don't feel at all unsafe in my little bubble, because I'm not a member of one of the hated minorities Trump and his henchman keep vilifying. And you can include journalists in that classification.
https://www.cbsnews.com/news/pittsburgh-shooting-highlights-rise-hate-crimes-united-states/
You can ignore the threat all you want, and you can even escape to a far less violent country if you have the money to do so, but you can't deny this is a dark time in recent American history.
Teacher Terry
10-29-18, 12:07pm
I find it annoying when people ask questions that they know the answer too. I agree Cathy that these hate crimes are horrible. Trump is inciting people to act crazy. He encourages violence. Sure you need to be unstable to let what your leader says to inspire you to take action. Truly disgusting!
What I can't understand at all, is that our laws don't allow us to remove a president who encourages violence against the country's own people. I know certain rules of law have to be met before trying to oust a president........but doesn't Trump seem to have met some pretty bad criteria? He encourages uprisings. Yes, a bigger concern might be all of his followers. But I'm getting the distinct feeling that the biggest thing they're loving from him, is his rhetoric to rise up and fight. I think he speaks to many people who are just rebellious and don't even care anything about the economy, healthcare, taxes, or ANYTHING, other than him encouraging them to throw fits and proudly be angry. Trump is the king of Id. He speaks to everyone's Id and encourages that part of their ego to do whatever the hell they want to do. I just can't believe more people in Congress aren't showing their total disgust with him and doing all they can to stop him.
What does the rate of hate crimes look like?
People are claiming "this is a dark time", and "there are lots more XXX things happening".
So there should be data. And looking at the data, one might be able to tease out some cause-effect relationships.
Which might be more useful than going with the sound bite of the day.
What I can't understand at all, is that our laws don't allow us to remove a president who encourages violence against the country's own people.
The law does provide for removal. The instructions are pretty clear. It just takes other elected officials doing their duty.
What does the rate of hate crimes look like?
People are claiming "this is a dark time", and "there are lots more XXX things happening".
So there should be data. And looking at the data, one might be able to tease out some cause-effect relationships.
Which might be more useful than going with the sound bite of the day.
You're free to look up statistics. I had no trouble finding sources.
"Sound bite of the day?" Save your sarcasm.
You're free to look up statistics.
Indeed. However, I was not the one making the original claims.
https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/2018/03/01/report-rise-hate-violence-tied-2016-presidential-election
Among many, many other sources.
Ultralight
10-29-18, 2:18pm
Indeed. However, I was not the one making the original claims.
"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."
FBI data here in links:
http://theconversation.com/new-data-shows-us-hate-crimes-continued-to-rise-in-2017-97989 (http://theconversation.com/new-data-shows-us-hate-crimes-continued-to-rise-in-2017-97989)
https://ucr.fbi.gov/hate-crime/2016
Just today one of my FB friends declared (I don't know where she got her info) that "there have always been these massacres; we just hear more about them now."
Ultralight
10-29-18, 2:32pm
“We are the Trump vanguard. The left will say Trump is a nationalist and an implicit or quasi-racialist. Conservatives, because they are just so douchey, say Oh, no, of course not, he’s a constitutionalist, or whatever. We on the alt-right will say, He is a nationalist and he is a racialist. His movement is a white movement. Duh.” Looking very satisfied with himself, (Richard)Spencer paused and then said: “We give him a kind of permission.” --from Fire and Fury, by Michael Wolff
Violent "racialists" have been given permission--out of the mouth of a White House insider.
Don't give me that crap about "both sides do it." No president in my long memory has ever publicly avowed being a nationalist (Nazi)--never mind attacking the free press non-stop. "Fine people on both sides?" Bullshit. This is a replay of thirties' Germany. The world is watching in horror.
Let me say this. I do not support Trump. I did not vote for him. I am a lifelong liberal.
I also think is it worthwhile to have solid claims.
Okay, so Richard Spencer said that. Do you really think that Trump is a racialist? And to what degree? Remember, Trump's daughter is a Jew. Trump's SIL is a Jew. Ben Carson, a black dude, is on Trump's cabinet. Trump hardly sounds like a full-on milk drinker to me.
Being a nationalist does not make someone a Nazi. Be real here, Jane. There are black nationalists all over the world, and unless the Nazis changed their rules, blacks can't be nazis. A Paraguayan can be a nationalist. So can a Canadian. Nationalism is an extreme form of patriotism, a feeling of superiority over other countries.
For the record, I am not a nationalist and I do not support that philosophy. I am a planetary citizen and I prefer a cosmopolitan philosophy.
1930s Germany? We are a looooooong as way from there. We are about to have a midterm election and can change things with that alone.
Your fever-pitch outrage and leftist mania is not going to help the situation.
Ultralight
10-29-18, 2:38pm
You tell me, and then we'll talk about those things, compared to slaughters of innocent people.
From the CDC, top causes of death in the USA in order.
Heart disease: 635,260
Cancer: 598,038
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 161,374
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 154,596
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 142,142
Alzheimer’s disease: 116,103
Diabetes: 80,058
Influenza and pneumonia: 51,537
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 50,046
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 44,965
From the CDC, top causes of death in the USA in order.
Heart disease: 635,260
Cancer: 598,038
Accidents (unintentional injuries): 161,374
Chronic lower respiratory diseases: 154,596
Stroke (cerebrovascular diseases): 142,142
Alzheimer’s disease: 116,103
Diabetes: 80,058
Influenza and pneumonia: 51,537
Nephritis, nephrotic syndrome, and nephrosis: 50,046
Intentional self-harm (suicide): 44,965
So? What's your point?
And ongoing:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-homicides-data-tracker-htmlstory.html
It can depend on who is telling the story, but this looks credible to me.
2561
"Importantly, the Mother Jones figures define mass shootings as public attacks in which the shooter and victims were generally unknown to each other, and four or more people were killed. Unlike the FBI’s “active shooting incidents,” where gangs and drugs are frequently involved, Mother Jones excludes all multiple murders related to drugs, gangs or domestic violence. They do include mass shootings by jihadist terrorists, however, which accounted for only 4 of their 98 incidents by my count.
The Mother Jones writers claim that “A recent analysis of this [Mother Jones] database by researchers at Harvard University, further corroborated by a recent FBI study (https://www.fbi.gov/about-us/office-of-partner-engagement/active-shooter-incidents/a-study-of-active-shooter-incidents-in-the-u.s.-2000-2013), determined that mass shootings have been on the rise (http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2014/10/mass-shootings-rising-harvard).”
https://www.cato.org/blog/are-mass-shootings-becoming-more-frequent
Teacher Terry
10-29-18, 3:54pm
My mom’s grandpa came here illegally from Germany. Everyday he got the German newspaper. He was convinced that Hitler was going to be Germany’s savior. When he picked up the paper and saw that Hitler had invaded Poland he had a heart attack and died. Point is to say that we are a long way from then is to ignore what is happening here. It is pretty scary to have to worry about going about your daily business and have to worry if you will be safe. Especially if you belong to one of the targeted groups. I think it’s foolhardy to think it cannot happen here.
And ongoing:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-homicides-data-tracker-htmlstory.html
Hopefully, the bad guys are killing other bad guys off. Unfortunately, I think a few innocents were involved.
And ongoing:
https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-chicago-homicides-data-tracker-htmlstory.html
I don't see the relevance. Hate crimes are demonstrably on the rise, flames are fanned by an admitted "nationalist" president, and I guess since the overall crime rate is down, it's of no concern to you. And Mussolini made the trains run on time.
2562
Ultralight
10-29-18, 4:04pm
It is pretty scary to have to worry about going about your daily business and have to worry if you will be safe.
I think people should worry about things in balance with their likelihood.
Now, I am a friend of Israel and I support religious freedom.
Antisemitism is a disgusting idea.
Worrying all the time about something that happens very rarely is not helpful.
I think we need to do something about all the god damn gun violence in the country. I think it will need to be a multi-pronged approach.
But I also think that calling Cheeto a Nazi is hyperbolic.
Teacher Terry
10-29-18, 4:05pm
Violence against Jewish people is up 57% since 2017.
I don't see the relevance. Hate crimes are demonstrably on the rise, flames are fanned by an admitted "nationalist" president, and I guess since the overall crime rate is down, it's of no concern to you. And Mussolini made the trains run on time.
2562
You seem to be arguing with somebody other than myself. Enjoy that.
This gives me some hope--Muslims, Iranian-Americans, and others raising money for the massacre victims:
https://tinyurl.com/ycsuap4e
Ultralight
10-29-18, 4:10pm
Violence against Jewish people is up 57% since 2017.
If that is true then law enforcement and other public agencies need to step up. I think we also need to publicly discuss the problem of antisemitism.
There's a great Kevin Williamson piece in National Review: "Rage Makes You Stupid". I think it makes us stupid in all kinds of ways, from making you believe various forms of violence are justified by your anger to attributing various acts of violence to the words of people you don't like. From hounding people out of restaurants to hounding people out of careers. People are actually writing articles every Thanksgiving about how to humiliate you're idiot right/left wing relatives at the dinner table.
Given the tragic idiocy of our present epoch, I'm beginning to believe that politics is a dish best served cold.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/10/rage-makes-you-stupid/
iris lilies
10-29-18, 4:49pm
Hopefully, the bad guys are killing other bad guys off. Unfortunately, I think a few innocents were involved.
This morning an armed robber shot a man outside of his house, a retired cop. I think it was an attemped car jacking, not sure. This took place within a mile of my house. Of course this event will never make headline news. And the easily excitable will not hear about it to be all aquiver.
As often happens, the dead cop got in a shot or two before he was felled. Both victim amd perp ended up at the same hospital where again, as often happens, the driver of the perp vehicle shoved out their gunshot buddy into the double doored entryway of the hospital
emergency room nefore he sped off.
Neber a dull moment in Murder City.
This morning an armed robber shot a man outside of his house, a retired cop. I think it was an attemped car jacking, not sure. This took place within a mile of my house. Of course this event will never make headline news. And the easily excitable will not hear about it to be all aquiver.
As often happens, the dead cop got in a shot or two before he was felled. Both victim amd perp ended up at the same hospital where again, as often happens, the driver of the perp vehicle shoved out their gunshot buddy into the double doored entryway of the hospital
emergency room nefore he sped off.
Neber a dull moment in Murder City.
Not sure what this has to do with incitement to commit hate crimes. It's certainly a violent and regrettable event, though. People walking into houses of worship and gunning down the congregation is naturally more newsworthy than a single shooting committed during a criminal act.
Looking back at our history, we've always been a violent nation. We've killed two presidents
Actually four - Lincoln, Garfield, McKinley and Kennedy.
And yes, we have always been a violent nation. People interested in hate crime trends might wish to visit the National Lynching Memorial which opened earlier this year in Montgomery.
iris lilies
10-29-18, 7:30pm
Not sure what this has to do with incitement to commit hate crimes. It's certainly a violent and regrettable event, though. People walking into houses of worship and gunning down the congregation is naturally more newsworthy than a single shooting committed during a criminal act.
This thread is about about mass murders the U.S. and the pervasiveness of same.
My story is anecdotal but illustrates one of many daily events, murders, in this country which when totaled up far exceed the occasional mass shooting.
dado potato
10-29-18, 7:46pm
I gather "The U. S. of Massacres" relates to the recent event in Pittsburgh.
One can go on a number of tangents. I feel great disgust about the anti-Semitism and gun violence that was manifested.
Am Yisrael Chai "The people of Israel live."
There's a great Kevin Williamson piece in National Review: "Rage Makes You Stupid". I think it makes us stupid in all kinds of ways, from making you believe various forms of violence are justified by your anger to attributing various acts of violence to the words of people you don't like. From hounding people out of restaurants to hounding people out of careers. People are actually writing articles every Thanksgiving about how to humiliate you're idiot right/left wing relatives at the dinner table.
Given the tragic idiocy of our present epoch, I'm beginning to believe that politics is a dish best served cold.
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/10/rage-makes-you-stupid/
What about hounding women who are just walking in to a Planned Parenthood for their pap smear and birth control? Does National Review condemn that as well?
Williamsmith
10-29-18, 8:49pm
I think you have to separate the gun violence from the hatred. They are two different aspects married together. Mass movements based on hatred are comprised of isolated “loners”. People might disagree with me but I think we are about two years into a government that is quasi-totalitarian or totalitarian-lite.
As long as our Constitution is in tact, we cannot become a totalitarian government but Trump is chipping away at certain parts of the Constitution. His attacks on the news media have a chilling effect on the purpose of a free press and the first amendment. The fourth amendment has been compromised. The irresponsible way Trump massages the truth and warps reality, mimics tactics totalitarians use to present one “truth” to followers who want to escape reality while non disciples can’t understand the attraction.
Mass murderers grasp onto an alternate reality. None of this matters when an AR15 is pointed at you, or a .223 round whizzes past your head or a pipe bomb gets stuffed in your mailbox.
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction (I.e. the reality of experience) true and false (i.e. , the standards of thought) no longer exists.”
Hannah Arendt, “The Origins Of Totalitarianism”
In 2016, Trump made the following statement at an Iowa campaign rally, “I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters.” He wasn’t just making an observation about his disciples dedication, he was implying that he was leading a movement that would challenge reality.
Ultralight
10-29-18, 9:34pm
I think you have to separate the gun violence from the hatred. They are two different aspects married together. Mass movements based on hatred are comprised of isolated “loners”. People might disagree with me but I think we are about two years into a government that is quasi-totalitarian or totalitarian-lite.
As long as our Constitution is in tact, we cannot become a totalitarian government but Trump is chipping away at certain parts of the Constitution. His attacks on the news media have a chilling effect on the purpose of a free press and the first amendment. The fourth amendment has been compromised. The irresponsible way Trump massages the truth and warps reality, mimics tactics totalitarians use to present one “truth” to followers who want to escape reality while non disciples can’t understand the attraction.
Mass murderers grasp onto an alternate reality. None of this matters when an AR15 is pointed at you, or a .223 round whizzes past your head or a pipe bomb gets stuffed in your mailbox.
“The ideal subject of totalitarian rule is not the convinced Nazi or the dedicated communist, but people for whom the distinction between fact and fiction (I.e. the reality of experience) true and false (i.e. , the standards of thought) no longer exists.”
Hannah Arendt, “The Origins Of Totalitarianism”
In 2016, Trump made the following statement at an Iowa campaign rally, “I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody and I wouldn’t lose voters.” He wasn’t just making an observation about his disciples dedication, he was implying that he was leading a movement that would challenge reality.
Trump's your boy. Regret that vote yet?
I heard with some amount of irritation today the Press Secretary hedging on some very pointed questions about suspending habeas corpus to deal with the Border Invasion Thing. Similar questions about using US troops here in the US were also dodged.
Williamsmith
10-29-18, 9:48pm
Trump's your boy. Regret that vote yet?
I don’t remember ever divulging who I voted for....but I don’t regret my vote.
ApatheticNoMore
10-29-18, 10:40pm
when trump says he's a nationalist he's going for the connotation, so arguing about exact meanings sure is silly (or you wouldn't know a dog whistle if it busted your eardrums - dog whistles that sound like train whistles someone quipped - no kidding, he's not subtle). And what are the connotations, perhaps nazism, but I suspect he was more going for white nationalist (but aren't those the same thing? not entirely - white racism in this country preceeded the nazi's by a long time indeed).
Look if Trump wanted to say he was protectionist, he could have used that word. He could have said isolationist (not accurate as the foreign wars never end, but whatever). He could have just said he would prioritize U.S. interests. But he chose the words he did to appeal to those he did.
Williamsmith
10-30-18, 4:25am
We’ve reached an historical point in the Trump movement. He has gone past just simply constructing an alternate reality for his followers. In the MAGA bomber incident and now the Pittsburgh massacre, he has refused to acknowledge his influence in the lives of the actors and has embraced the violence. There is a bold contempt for anything factual and an insincere charade each time someone tries to present facts.
All that is important is to continue hammering home the lies and never ever accept responsibility or acknowledge wrong. The Jews in Pittsburgh don’t want Trump visiting and making a mockery of what happened. Mike Pence showed his colors by inviting a Messianic Rabbi to open a campaign meeting with a prayer. This was an insult to Jews. Pence views them as lost people. He is the heir apparent to Trump and a worse purveyor of false narrative than Trump.
Ultralight
10-30-18, 6:34am
when trump says he's a nationalist he's going for the connotation, so arguing about exact meanings sure is silly (or you wouldn't know a dog whistle if it busted your eardrums - dog whistles that sound like train whistles someone quipped - no kidding, he's not subtle). And what are the connotations, perhaps nazism, but I suspect he was more going for white nationalist (but aren't those the same thing? not entirely - white racism in this country preceeded the nazi's by a long time indeed).
Look if Trump wanted to say he was protectionist, he could have used that word. He could have said isolationist (not accurate as the foreign wars never end, but whatever). He could have just said he would prioritize U.S. interests. But he chose the words he did to appeal to those he did.
When someone blows a "dog whistle" who is responsible for the listeners' actions? The person who blew the whistle or the people who heard it?
catherine
10-30-18, 6:41am
My DH is sitting all day watching TV because of 3 cracked ribs he got last Tuesday, so while I'm working I can hear the TV. He was watching Schindler's List for the umpteenth time, and Netflix was doing what it does.. "Because you liked Schindler's List..." and so from my POV it sounded like he was binge watching Holocaust movies, but he was just tired and pain-weary so he was letting the TV do its thing.
Point being, I know that the thought that the Trump movement bears resemblance to the early Nazi movement seems a bit hyperbolic, but is it? Watching the brazen acts that have taken place this week, and reading Facebook posts by my ultra-right friends, it just feels like people feel they can peel off the girdle of self-restraint and civility. The face that people usually don't show in public is starting to appear behind the cracked facade that is now swelling with the consequences of having a President who unrelentingly fans the flames of humanity's darker side. And feelings of fear, exclusivity and separateness are all being validated with lies and hate.
Ultralight
10-30-18, 6:46am
To all of you who think Trump and his followers are or are like Nazis, my question is this: Will you be "good Germans" and keep your head down, your mouth shut, and do your work for the big machine?
Or will you resist?
Williamsmith
10-30-18, 7:20am
To all of you who think Trump and his followers are or are like Nazis, my question is this: Will you be "good Germans" and keep your head down, your mouth shut, and do your work for the big machine?
Or will you resist?
In my view, you don’t understand. Trump is the symptom. Not the disease. What is your outline for resistance?
What about hounding women who are just walking in to a Planned Parenthood for their pap smear and birth control? Does National Review condemn that as well?
They have in the past.
Point being, I know that the thought that the Trump movement bears resemblance to the early Nazi movement seems a bit hyperbolic, but is it?
Yes. It is.
Comparing people you don’t like to Nazis has been a popular low-effort polemical cliche pretty much since Berlin fell. It has worn so thin due to overuse that I find it impossible to take seriously.
catherine
10-30-18, 7:40am
Yes. It is.
Comparing people you don’t like to Nazis has been a popular low-effort polemical cliche pretty much sense Berlin fell. It has worn so thin due to overuse that I find it impossible to take seriously.
When a leader strives to do nothing except divide people; when he publicly ridicules citizens with impunity; when he only expresses condemnation about domestic terrorism when his party and his family twists his arm; when he claims that nothing is more important than our national self-interest at the expense of everything else... the similarity to Hitler's modus operandi are real, not imagined.
It's not that I don't like the guy. I'll bet he's fun to have dinner with. He is not good for binding us together. He is not attending to the better angels of our nature. If division is allowed to run rampant in our country, I don't see a good end to that.
Williamsmith
10-30-18, 8:00am
Yes. It is.
Comparing people you don’t like to Nazis has been a popular low-effort polemical cliche pretty much since Berlin fell. It has worn so thin due to overuse that I find it impossible to take seriously.
Cynicism aside, you don’t see any similarity to Nazi fabrications of enemies of the country in order to install a false reality with which people with purposeless lives become affirmed? The Nazis perfected the use of propaganda and Trump is a master at it. Just as one example.
Ultralight
10-30-18, 8:03am
My feeling is that we are a very different people with a very different government and different culture.
That is why we, as a nation will not go Nazi. Not gonna happen.
Someone might try, but it ain't gonna fly.
Godwin's Law on a mass scale.
Ultralight
10-30-18, 8:36am
Godwin's Law on a mass scale.
???
I didn’t like George Bush in 2001 but I didn’t think he was trending toward becoming a dictator. Trump is an entirely different thing. I fear for our country.
Cynicism aside, you don’t see any similarity to Nazi fabrications of enemies of the country in order to install a false reality with which people with purposeless lives become affirmed? The Nazis perfected the use of propaganda and Trump is a master at it. Just as one example.
Pushing your particular version of the truth was hardly original with either the Third Reich or the MAGAphiles. Nor for our new aristocracy of the caring and sensitive explaining why the deplorables are bitterly clinging to the wrong side of history. It’s like claiming that since both Trump and Hitler had microphones they must be equivalent.
I don’t hear the jackboots on the cobblestones that so many others seem to. The times are very different, and people have been crying wolf for far too long.
I don’t hear the jackboots on the cobblestones that so many others seem to.
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-lawful-resident-20180628-htmlstory.html
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-s-immigrant-roundups-increasingly-net-noncriminals-n911366
http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-lawful-resident-20180628-htmlstory.html
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/trump-s-immigrant-roundups-increasingly-net-noncriminals-n911366
Deporting people here illegally even if they haven’t committed a felony does not strike me as evidence of nascent fascism.
herbgeek
10-30-18, 10:27am
The first link mentions people who are here LEGALLY being affected too.
Here's some more:
https://www.newsweek.com/judge-calls-ice-arrest-couples-their-wedding-days-895116
https://nypost.com/2018/08/25/ice-wants-to-deport-mom-weeks-before-she-gets-her-green-card/
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/06/ice-detained-a-50-year-u-s-resident-outside-the-home-he-owns-now-its-trying-to-deport-him.html
I'm recalling a talk I went to years ago by a Holocaust survivor. She was a young adult woman when she was sent to a concentration camp.
She described the increasing restrictions on Jews in Germany over the years leading up to the "final solution." She was asked, Why didn't you just leave?
Her answer: Why didn't Americans leave when the Patriot Act was passed? Response in the auditorium: Complete silence.
The Holocaust didn't start overnight. It was years of events that led to it, including an economically stressed public who were susceptible to the propaganda that proved effective.
Teacher Terry
10-30-18, 11:10am
No other president sought to divide people and incite violence. Yesterday a man with a gun killed someone shooting people in McDonald’s. While it ended well I have read it is difficult to shoot accurately which is why police aim for the torso and police are well trained. Citizens having a shoot out could easily go wrong. Ugh!
Williamsmith
10-30-18, 11:40am
Godwin's Law on a mass scale.
I hardly think a discussion that centers on the original post about mass murder of Jews at a synagogue fits the memetic comparison regarding Nazis and Hitler. im Sure you didn’t mean to devalue their lives that way. Maybe I am misunderstanding your post.
ToomuchStuff
10-30-18, 11:42am
No other president sought to divide people and incite violence.
Yesterday a man with a gun killed someone shooting people in McDonald’s. While it ended well I have read it is difficult to shoot accurately which is why police aim for the torso and police are well trained. Citizens having a shoot out could easily go wrong. Ugh!
Jefferson Davis. Look up your history again.
And believing everything you read isn't a good thing. Police receive training, and a lot of shooters do to. Neither means they are well trained. That is up to the individual. I was in a class where someone who barely spoke English was there and had never fired a gun before (CCW class), and with his big grin, asking someone to film him why he fired a .22 the teacher was loaning. He didn't listen to any of his training and was aiming for the head. One bullet at the very edge of the head and nine in the ceiling. The two others who had never had any formal training, listened and followed directions and did well. The experienced shooter, me, learned something from this man who has competed nationally, and I was ticked to get 8 rounds of of the 10 point circle, out of 40.
There are people who take it seriously, and then there are those who think they are going to be Rambo.
I hardly think a discussion that centers on the original post about mass murder of Jews at a synagogue fits the memetic comparison regarding Nazis and Hitler. im Sure you didn’t mean to devalue their lives that way. Maybe I am misunderstanding your post.
Yes, I think you are. The discussion went off track when it morphed into a political discussion placing blame on everyone's favorite blowhard and implying that we as a society were on our way to fascist/national socialist state. I very much value the victims lives but remain unconvinced that pogroms are on the horizon.
catherine
10-30-18, 12:14pm
Jefferson Davis. Look up your history again.
He was president of the Confederacy..It took a Civil War to "heal the nation's wounds" Do we want to repeat THAT history?? His contemporary said "A house divided against itself cannot stand." Trump should take a lesson from that.
Yes, I think you are. The discussion went off track when it morphed into a political discussion placing blame on everyone's favorite blowhard and implying that we as a society were on our way to fascist/national socialist state. I very much value the victims lives but remain unconvinced that pogroms are on the horizon.
I wish I shared your sunny optimism. But it's not just the hate inspiring ass in chief, it's the whole republican party that's the problem.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/powerpost/gop-presses-ahead-in-casting-soros-as-threat-amid-criticism-that-attacks-are-anti-semitic/2018/10/29/183d50fe-dba4-11e8-b3f0-62607289efee_story.html?utm_term=.48334b40b112
ToomuchStuff
10-30-18, 12:41pm
He was president of the Confederacy..It took a Civil War to "heal the nation's wounds" Do we want to repeat THAT history?? His contemporary said "A house divided against itself cannot stand." Trump should take a lesson from that.
He isn't the only one. We have people saying that states should succeed from the union and those saying not my president. How divisive do you think that is?
Ultralight
10-30-18, 12:41pm
... everyone's favorite blowhard Regret that vote yet?
Ultralight
10-30-18, 12:42pm
If the citizens of this country are moved to extremes by an orange loudmouth then that is the problem. They are easily fooled. Americans need to start thinking for themselves, and critically so.
I wish I shared your sunny optimism. But it's not just the hate inspiring ass in chief, it's the whole republican party that's the problem.
Perhaps I'm wrong and pogroms are in the works, but not based on race, ethnicity or gender but rather ideology.
Regret that vote yet?
No, the world isn't burning, regardless of prognostications.
Perhaps I'm wrong and pogroms are in the works, but not based on race, ethnicity or gender but rather ideology.
So you would picture it looking more like Berkeley than “The Man in the High Castle”?
ToomuchStuff
10-30-18, 2:13pm
Learned a new word today, as my mind kept correcting Alan to read programs.
All this hysteria and talk of massacres makes me want to remind people we have survived this stuff before.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YX95QSKBODo
We have people saying that states should succeed
I would love to have all states succeed.
So you would picture it looking more like Berkeley than “The Man in the High Castle”?Yes, more of a 'free speech if I approve' sort of thing, the problem is that the more successful that becomes, the stakes are sure to become higher.
Ultralight
10-30-18, 6:13pm
Yes, more of a 'free speech if I approve' sort of thing, the problem is that the more successful that becomes, the stakes are sure to become higher.
How about your boy T-Rump and his "free press if I approve" attitude?
How about your boy T-Rump and his "free press if I approve" attitude?He should lay off that line. We all know there's a kernel of truth to it, no need to blather on.
When news became a product to be sold and opened 24 hour markets filled with opinion journalism, poetic license became the order of the day.
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