Overeaters' Anonymous

[Ultralight]

For those of you that read or chimed into my thread "The Pancake Incident" or other threads that touched on this you might be quite aware of my problem (addiction?) to certain foods.

Last Wednesday I turned down lunch with a friend (where their watchful eyes would prevent me from overeating) and went to a rather coarse little restaurant for the bluest of the blue collars. At this dimly-lit, seedy establishment one can indulge in unlimited pizza.

And I did. Alone.

For lunch I had at least 12 slices -- good-sized NY style slices. That is the equivalent of one and a half large pizzas.

Afterward, as I stumbled out barely warding off an immediate food coma I realized I needed to do something drastic.

About two years ago I went to an Overeaters' Anonymous meeting. I did not like it, partly because of the seemingly inherent religiosity, but also because it made me admit to myself that I was totally god damn out of control. And OA suggested I really do something about it.

But after those 12 slices of pizza I went back to OA on Wednesday night, then on Thursday morning, then on Saturday morning, and then this evening.

I have been clean since Wednesday night, though I am contending with some serious revelations about myself and the choices -- the long-term choices -- I need to make.

And they are not sitting well with me.

[Teacher Terry]

I am so sorry. That’s a lot of food. I would have chosen people over food. Good for you for recognizing it’s a problem. Are you as hard on yourself as you are other people?

[Ultralight]

I am so sorry. That’s a lot of food. I would have chosen people over food. Good for you for recognizing it’s a problem. Are you as hard on yourself as you are other people?

I don't think I am that hard on anyone -- myself or others. haha

But I will say my frustration with my junk food addiction has turned me into a bit of an irritable grump.

[SteveinMN]

UL, congratulations on seeking help with your eating. Along with the attention you're now bringing to the issues behind your junk-food eating you're probably getting hit by a significant change in what you are eating (or not eating). I hope progress is quick.

[Ultralight]

I hope progress is quick.

Thanks.

[Ultralight]

The thing I am realizing is that I am going to have to profoundly change my identity.

I can't be a big foodie anymore. Everyone comes to me for advice on where to get the best Somali food or the best momo or where a great Indonesian food truck is going to be parked, etc.

I can't be the food guide anymore, I don't think.

My highs and lows in life can't be all about food. My social life cannot be so thoroughly dominated by food.

[dado potato]

Ultralight,

Your choices and changes sound healthy and positive. Kudos!

I believe that saying "no" to excessive portions, and "no" to fat-sweet offerings, is a way of saying "yes" to a healthy weight and a smaller waist.

[Ultralight]

Ultralight,

Your choices and changes sound healthy and positive. Kudos!

I believe that saying "no" to excessive portions, and "no" to fat-sweet offerings, is a way of saying "yes" to a healthy weight and a smaller waist.

I like your philosophy. :)

But without being a Big Foodie I feel like much of my identity will be decimated.

[Chicken lady]

I’m really proud of you.

different struggle, but I do understand the journey.

know that you are much more than the food guy.

Knowing you here, I don’t know you as a food guy at all. You love Harlan, you travel, you focus on minimalism in your life, you like to challenge yourself and try new things...

and do I believe you can do this.

[herbgeek]

know that you are much more than the food guy.

Agreed. Labels and putting people and yourself in discrete predictable boxes can be limiting and confining. You are more than any one label.

[Ultralight]

I’m really proud of you.

different struggle, but I do understand the journey.

know that you are much more than the food guy.

Knowing you here, I don’t know you as a food guy at all. You love Harlan, you travel, you focus on minimalism in your life, you like to challenge yourself and try new things...

and do I believe you can do this.

Thank you. I appreciate that.

[Ultralight]

Agreed. Labels and putting people and yourself in discrete predictable boxes can be limiting and confining. You are more than any one label.

I know that I am other things -- fisherman, book reader, rescue dog enthusiast, etc. But Foodie is a big one -- I mean huge. So that is why it feels like this addiction is pummeling my identity.

[SteveinMN]

The thing I am realizing is that I am going to have to profoundly change my identity.

I can't be a big foodie anymore. Everyone comes to me for advice on where to get the best Somali food or the best momo or where a great Indonesian food truck is going to be parked, etc.

I can't be the food guide anymore, I don't think.
I could have written this. When I was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes last year, I decided to address it with diet and exercise (not medication). Going low-carbohydrate/high-fat has helped me lose more than 50 pounds and has kept my blood glucose ultra-stable at non-diabetic levels without a drop of injected insulin or any of the drugs (and side effects) millions of others manage to combat high blood sugar.

But having to essentially eliminate grains, starchy vegetables, fruit, and sugar in foods did a number on me emotionally. For years, like you, I was the restaurant go-to guy. Friends knew that I'd already been to that new place before the reviews started hitting the local news and foodie Web sites. I'd cut back on that some when I left My Day Job (financial reasons, plus I was home to cook more) but I still went and people still asked.

For a few months after my diagnosis, I did almost no cooking because I wasn't interested in spending any time making food I could not eat. Just put in front of me what I could eat and I was good; I didn't want to think about that much. The kitchen full of pans and nice knives and appliances -- acquired over decades -- and the stocked pantry just sat while I fried eggs and bacon every morning and popped open bags of salad mix for lunch. I did feel a little guilty about that since I'm not the only person in this house, but DW is nowhere near as food-driven as I was/am so she minded far less.

Like you, some condition I had forced a change in my perspective on food. It was a big loss -- I love food (still do) and I love to cook (more than you do, I think). But I also love my wife and my grandkids and retirement and doing this gives me more of all of those. We all have things or people we want to have more of in our lives, so if racheting back on being a foodie is the price, well, it will take time to adjust, but it's worth the time.

I still like to go to restaurants, though I scout the menus ahead of time to see if there's even a choice of foods on my eating plan. If there isn't, there are plenty of other restaurants around to try. I still read up on them and talk with people about them, so even if I'm not a candidate for eating there, I still know the consensus on who makes the best doro wat in town. I am cooking again. Breakfast and lunch are almost always the same thing (that was an adjustment!) because it's easy and it doesn't take much energy to put them together. But I'm back to collecting recipes for and preparing dinners I can eat. I'm back to experimenting (can I make cauliflower rice suitable for sushi?). DW has been pretty game about eating what I'm eating and supplementing her carbs her way, and I'm fine with that. It does not bother me to see people eating foods I can't. And I always can take a taste if I'm really interested. (Coffee-flavored cotton candy? I'll try it. The ordinary-looking hash browns at that new breakfast place? No, thanks.)

I still look longingly at some menus and some recipes. There still are times I wish I could address food, unencumbered. But I can say without doubt that I'm healthier for stepping back. I can still use the good knives but now they're portioning nicer cuts of meat. The blender makes a great keto salad dressing. The pizza stone doesn't work quite as well for cauliflower-crust pizza, but it does work. I still got to stroll the new food hall before most people I know got to go. If you can find the reasons you want to address your food addiction, it will take time to reset, but it can be done and you'll be better for it, too.

[Ultralight]

Having only been to a handful of meetings I will say this:

I like:

-The anarchistic organization; no real leader, no hierarchy
-The community of support (my "higher power")
-The honesty
-The anonymity
-The use of a timer to keep the meeting moving
-The rather surprising amount of acceptance (I said I was struggling with this higher power stuff because I am not religious at all; then I figured "well, this is where I get alienated"; then someone came up to be afterward and said: "Don't worry, the group itself can be your higher power.")
-It helps me to be more accepting and to really listen to people very different from myself

I dislike:

-The religiosity
-The hand-holding at the closing prayer/chant
-The term abstinence (I prefer the slang term "clean")
-Having to say out loud that I am a compulsive overeater

[CathyA]

I'm struggling with the same issue. There's hardly ever a time when I'm not hungry......even after I eat (even healthy food).
I'm getting interested in that Leptin resistance thing. I know early life has a big impact on eating. It's hard to know if it's nature or nurture.

[Ultralight]

I could have written this. When I was diagnosed with Type 2 diabetes last year, I decided to address it with diet and exercise (not medication). Going low-carbohydrate/high-fat has helped me lose more than 50 pounds and has kept my blood glucose ultra-stable at non-diabetic levels without a drop of injected insulin or any of the drugs (and side effects) millions of others manage to combat high blood sugar.

But having to essentially eliminate grains, starchy vegetables, fruit, and sugar in foods did a number on me emotionally. For years, like you, I was the restaurant go-to guy. Friends knew that I'd already been to that new place before the reviews started hitting the local news and foodie Web sites. I'd cut back on that some when I left My Day Job (financial reasons, plus I was home to cook more) but I still went and people still asked.

For a few months after my diagnosis, I did almost no cooking because I wasn't interested in spending any time making food I could not eat. Just put in front of me what I could eat and I was good; I didn't want to think about that much. The kitchen full of pans and nice knives and appliances -- acquired over decades -- and the stocked pantry just sat while I fried eggs and bacon every morning and popped open bags of salad mix for lunch. I did feel a little guilty about that since I'm not the only person in this house, but DW is nowhere near as food-driven as I was/am so she minded far less.

Like you, some condition I had forced a change in my perspective on food. It was a big loss -- I love food (still do) and I love to cook (more than you do, I think). But I also love my wife and my grandkids and retirement and doing this gives me more of all of those. We all have things or people we want to have more of in our lives, so if racheting back on being a foodie is the price, well, it will take time to adjust, but it's worth the time.

I still like to go to restaurants, though I scout the menus ahead of time to see if there's even a choice of foods on my eating plan. If there isn't, there are plenty of other restaurants around to try. I still read up on them and talk with people about them, so even if I'm not a candidate for eating there, I still know the consensus on who makes the best doro wat in town. I am cooking again. Breakfast and lunch are almost always the same thing (that was an adjustment!) because it's easy and it doesn't take much energy to put them together. But I'm back to collecting recipes for and preparing dinners I can eat. I'm back to experimenting (can I make cauliflower rice suitable for sushi?). DW has been pretty game about eating what I'm eating and supplementing her carbs her way, and I'm fine with that. It does not bother me to see people eating foods I can't. And I always can take a taste if I'm really interested. (Coffee-flavored cotton candy? I'll try it. The ordinary-looking hash browns at that new breakfast place? No, thanks.)

I still look longingly at some menus and some recipes. There still are times I wish I could address food, unencumbered. But I can say without doubt that I'm healthier for stepping back. I can still use the good knives but now they're portioning nicer cuts of meat. The blender makes a great keto salad dressing. The pizza stone doesn't work quite as well for cauliflower-crust pizza, but it does work. I still got to stroll the new food hall before most people I know got to go. If you can find the reasons you want to address your food addiction, it will take time to reset, but it can be done and you'll be better for it, too.


Steve, thanks for sharing. :)

[Ultralight]

I'm struggling with the same issue. There's hardly ever a time when I'm not hungry......even after I eat (even healthy food).
I'm getting interested in that Leptin resistance thing. I know early life has a big impact on eating. It's hard to know if it's nature or nurture.

My mom and dad are clearly compulsive over-eaters and junk food junkies. So if there is a genetic component I am likely cursed with it. And it there is an environmental component I lived deep in that milieu as a child. I mean, when I was a kid I would drink 6 or more cans of Pepsi a day. Typical breakfast was a huge square of chocolate cake and a cold Pepsi.

[Tybee]

UL, at your next meeting, suggest you ask for a temporary sponsor. Then you will have someone to call to talk to. I think that could be very important to your success in the program. They will have lots of experience with things like the impact of your childhood on your eating habits now. There is probably nothing awful that they have not heard, which will up your comfort level in the program. It's obvious that your childhood eating milieu was not "normal" and that is where a good program can really help you, as you have a shared context with your sponsor and the other members at the meeting. It's like al-anon--they will get it when you talk about the chocolate cake and pepsi for breakfast in a way that the rest of the world will not. They will also help you to avoid the trap of stopping there, at blaming your childhood for your current behaviors.

12 step programs are great because they make us take personal responsibility for our behavior and our lives.

[Sad Eyed Lady]

I am using one of the things Chicken Lady pointed out about you : "you focus on minimalism in your life". So, I am thinking that you could bring your minimalism outlook into the food area and focus on it in that way. Quality foods over quantity foods - such as all you can eat pizza.

[Ultralight]

UL, at your next meeting, suggest you ask for a temporary sponsor. Then you will have someone to call to talk to. I think that could be very important to your success in the program. They will have lots of experience with things like the impact of your childhood on your eating habits now. There is probably nothing awful that they have not heard, which will up your comfort level in the program. It's obvious that your childhood eating milieu was not "normal" and that is where a good program can really help you, as you have a shared context with your sponsor and the other members at the meeting. It's like al-anon--they will get it when you talk about the chocolate cake and pepsi for breakfast in a way that the rest of the world will not. They will also help you to avoid the trap of stopping there, at blaming your childhood for your current behaviors.

12 step programs are great because they make us take personal responsibility for our behavior and our lives.

I want to be selective about choosing a sponsor.

But I agree I want to find a sponsor.

I am not letting my childhood define me. I definitely think I can change.

[Ultralight]

I am using one of the things Chicken Lady pointed out about you : "you focus on minimalism in your life". So, I am thinking that you could bring your minimalism outlook into the food area and focus on it in that way. Quality foods over quantity foods - such as all you can eat pizza.

You would think I could do that. But I am a total F@#%ING madman when it comes to certain junk foods. haha

Basically I have been clean since Wednesday night. I have done this by going to meetings, white knuckling, and just hiding out. I had a three day weekend. So I have been in solitude much of the time.

Tomorrow I will have to go to work and deal with some temptations and with the peer pressure of another compulsive over eater.

[CathyA]

My mom and dad are clearly compulsive over-eaters and junk food junkies. So if there is a genetic component I am likely cursed with it. And it there is an environmental component I lived deep in that milieu as a child. I mean, when I was a kid I would drink 6 or more cans of Pepsi a day. Typical breakfast was a huge square of chocolate cake and a cold Pepsi.

UL.........I'm really pissed at your parents. :( Even with my "eating disorder", my kids never saw it. They learned to eat really healthy stuff. I would have felt like a total failure if I'd "taught" them to eat crap.

Have you had a physical recently? Maybe even see an endocrinologist. I know, speaking as someone with the same kind of problem, there can be so many more reasons for your hunger. And I know you're really trying. But if you never address some of the other possible problems, your success might not last very long. But damn.........I'm really pissed at your parents!! When I was a toddler, my mother would stuff a cracker in my mouth whenever I would cry. Thanks mom. Hang in there UL.

[Ultralight]

UL.........I'm really pissed at your parents. :( Even with my "eating disorder", my kids never saw it. They learned to eat really healthy stuff. I would have felt like a total failure if I'd "taught" them to eat crap.

Have you had a physical recently? Maybe even see an endocrinologist. I know, speaking as someone with the same kind of problem, there can be so many more reasons for your hunger. And I know you're really trying. But if you never address some of the other possible problems, your success might not last very long. But damn.........I'm really pissed at your parents!! When I was a toddler, my mother would stuff a cracker in my mouth whenever I would cry. Thanks mom. Hang in there UL.

I think that my parents did not see it as an eating disorder, but as a way to make yourself happy.

Interestingly I can distinguish between real hunger and the craving of my addiction. Like I am hungry for baked salmon, but I crave pizzas.

[Teacher Terry]

I can’t believe that your parents fed you such crap. I was a very young mom and knew better than that. Ugh!

[Ultralight]

I can’t believe that your parents fed you such crap. I was a very young mom and knew better than that. Ugh!

Candy, cookies, pizza, cakes, mountains of Chinese food, mac & cheese. Again, I think they thought they were just showing me their method of making themselves happy. This is still their method.

But I don't want it to be mine. I am 39. I am late to the game, but I can change.

[Ultralight]

And in some senses I actually do a lot better than my parents. I have not drank soda pop in 18 or 19 years. I don't eat chocolate anymore or desserts. I quit about 15 years ago.

[Zoe Girl]

That is great that you are reaching out for help and support. No one else can do that for you so it is a huge step.

I have been meditating at times with a Refuge Recovery group at an in-patient treatment center (it is a Buddhist based recovery program). I hear stories of amazing trauma from everyone and then hear them take responsibility. It is pretty amazing to me. I attend because of my brain based illness and total breakdown over the summer. People there really understand what happened. It sounds like OA is the best place for you right now, however if you want to try out the RR in addition there are on-line meetings as I understand. The book by the same name is also very good, many people use it along with an AA type program. The program is for every type of addiction but the people are generally dealing with alcohol and drugs which seems distinctly different in a way because a food addiction does not mean you can stop eating food.

My closest to understanding is a high sensitivity to sugar, and my diagnoses recommends I watch sugar and caffeine. I ate some cookies before bed and I woke up at 3:30 am because I was actually hungry enough to wake up. So I second the recommendation to see a DR if you have not already and possibly a deitician when you have some progress. Also I know with larger employers there is often the EAP, you can get some free counseling sessions and it is totally private. You have made the big step and there are some support systems that are part of the systems you have put so much hard work into at your job.

[Ultralight]

I feel really grumpy.

[Chicken lady]

Yep. Impulsive, indulgent UL does not like being reined in. And probably the people around you don’t get it.

keep turning to your support group!

mine is online, but I “go” there every day. Sometimes over and over. If you need more frequent reinforcement, you might want to look for an online back up so that you can have a quick “meeting” at work if you need to.

[Ultralight]

Yep. Impulsive, indulgent UL does not like being reined in. And probably the people around you don’t get it.

I would say I am more indulgent than impulsive. haha

[Ultralight]

I realize that I am much stronger when I have to be strong for someone else.

When I have to be strong for myself, I tend to be weaker.

[catherine]

I realize that I am much stronger when I have to be strong for someone else.

When I have to be strong for myself, I tend to be weaker.

Funny how that works.

[Ultralight]

Funny how that works.

Yeah.

But yesterday I found myself overeating something rather healthy.

I had this argument with myself for a moment: "I should just finish it all!"

"No, don't!"

"Yes! Do it!"

"No, don't do this to yourself."

"DO IT!!!!!!"

Then I imagined seeing myself shoveling the food into my face. I thought: "That would be embarrassing for anyone to see that."

Suddenly I stood up, looked at the food in a very different way. I thought: "At this point this food is poison."

Kind of hyperbolic, but that is how I felt.

I set the food down on the floor as though I was trying to get away from a toxic chemical or radioactive lump.

I backed away from it as though I felt fear.

Very strange episode...

But Harlan ate the rest of it as soon as it hit the floor. haha

[KayLR]

UL, how does the toxic food get into your house? I have foods that, if they were in my house they'd be terribly hard for me to resist. So....they don't come into my house. If they aren't there, I cannot eat them.

Do you feel confident in your shopping skills?

[iris lilies]

UL, how does the toxic food get into your house? I have foods that, if they were in my house they'd be terribly hard for me to resist. So....they don't come into my house. If they aren't there, I cannot eat them.

Do you feel confident in your shopping skills?

Agreed, completely irresistable foods do not enter my house, things like peanut butter, salty chips, fresh or frozen pizzas. Dortunately, DH doesnt eat that stuff so does not mind that we do not have it around.

Some things that we keep for occasional use, like cashews (used in an Indian dish) I ask DH to put away where I cannot find.

[Tenngal]

I have many struggles with food, especially homemade sweets.

Sometimes just thinking of food as fuel for my body helps.

If I only stop at the cafe once per month and have a homemade dessert, that is much better.

True hunger does not really play much of a role in the dessert issue, it's like I need some kind of reward?

[SteveinMN]

(sig line) My therapist told me the way to achieve true inner peace is to finish what I start. So far today, I have finished two bags of M&Ms and a chocolate cake. I feel better already!
Interesting sig in light of this conversation. :)

We have a lot of food in our house that could be bad for a diabetic, but that’s because I'm not the only person who lives here (not likely UL's problem). The interesting thing is that I'm rarely tempted to dig in, partially because of my lack of a sweet tooth, and partially because it's easy for me to recall how bad I feel after (over)indulging. This is a bit like UL's "this food is poison" approach and it works very well for me. If it works for him, then it will be helpful until the tempting stuff is gone (never to be replaced).

[Ultralight]

UL, how does the toxic food get into your house? I have foods that, if they were in my house they'd be terribly hard for me to resist. So....they don't come into my house. If they aren't there, I cannot eat them.

Do you feel confident in your shopping skills?

Well, this food item was actually fairly healthy -- it was organic cottage cheese, fresh pineapple, and raw/local honey. The milkfat and the honey though -- quite a cocktail. I think that is why I started pounding it.

But the food I bring home from the grocery is usually quite healthy. It is the ordering of pizza and the going out to restaurants where I go so horribly wrong.

I know how to buy healthy food. I could use some lessons in shopping more economically though.

[Ultralight]

This is a bit like UL's "this food is poison" approach and it works very well for me. If it works for him, then it will be helpful until the tempting stuff is gone (never to be replaced).

This wasn't an approach. It just kind of happened in a moment of mental and emotional distress.

[Zoe Girl]

Have you considered the meal prep services? They are portion controlled for 2 servings, have just enough of what you need, and are a good support for this transition to healthier eating. If you are already eating out then the cost is not that different I would think.

Shopping economically means eating what you buy, and if you buy a large package of fresh herbs and most of it gets slimy then you can get discouraged. I like buying fresh foods that I can use in at least 2 different recipes. Then I cook meals of only 2 servings, one for dinner and one for a lunch. Any more than that and I get sick of it. To keep my variety high and my pantry from being over-stuffed I shop at the bulk bins a lot, places like Sprouts. I can get just one cup of quinoa or a handful of pumpkin seeds.

Keep up the good work

[Ultralight]

Have you considered the meal prep services? They are portion controlled for 2 servings, have just enough of what you need, and are a good support for this transition to healthier eating. If you are already eating out then the cost is not that different I would think.

Shopping economically means eating what you buy, and if you buy a large package of fresh herbs and most of it gets slimy then you can get discouraged. I like buying fresh foods that I can use in at least 2 different recipes. Then I cook meals of only 2 servings, one for dinner and one for a lunch. Any more than that and I get sick of it. To keep my variety high and my pantry from being over-stuffed I shop at the bulk bins a lot, places like Sprouts. I can get just one cup of quinoa or a handful of pumpkin seeds.

Keep up the good work

The meals I cook at home are usually fine. Baked salmon, steamed broc, hard boiled eggs, whole oatmeal, stew in the crock pot with plenty of veggies, black beans and rice, apples and PB, and so forth.

I need to stay away from restaurants and not order pizzas.

I am still doing the 5:2 intermittent fasting.

[Zoe Girl]

The meals I cook at home are usually fine. Baked salmon, steamed broc, hard boiled eggs, whole oatmeal, stew in the crock pot with plenty of veggies, black beans and rice, apples and PB, and so forth.

I need to stay away from restaurants and not order pizzas.

I am still doing the 5:2 intermittent fasting.

Hmm, that makes me curious. I go to coffee shops sometimes to just get out, I get a lot of work done, I drink too much sugar, and it meets several needs. It sounds like from your previous post that you overeat when you eat out alone (not sure about the pizza). It may just be something to consider over time as you heal, I know from my own situation that it is long process with many factors.

[merince]

UL, are you by any chance diabetic or pre-diabetic? You seem awfully sensitive to carbs. What triggered you is fairly healthy, but it is a carb bomb just like bread, pancakes, etc. While keto is hard, you might want to look into a low carb diet in order to reduce your triggers.

[Ultralight]

UL, are you by any chance diabetic or pre-diabetic? You seem awfully sensitive to carbs. What triggered you is fairly healthy, but it is a carb bomb just like bread, pancakes, etc. While keto is hard, you might want to look into a low carb diet in order to reduce your triggers.

I am not diabetic or pre, according to my recent tests. I have to take the tests each year for work. But I have not eaten desserts or drank soda pop in about 15 years.

Keto sounds really gross to me. I don't like most meats, though bacon is like crack cocaine to me. I also dislike veggies.

Why can't I just not eat the things that trigger me? Celery sticks don't trigger me. Baked salmon does not trigger me. Ripe pears don't trigger me. Rice and beans is pretty safe. Oatmeal with nuts, berries, honey, and milk is pretty safe.

Pizza turns me into a wolf. Any time of buffet transforms me into a madman.

[SteveinMN]

I am not diabetic or pre, according to my recent tests. I have to take the tests each year for work. But I have not eaten desserts or drank soda pop in about 15 years.

Keto sounds really gross to me. I don't like most meats, though bacon is like crack cocaine to me. I also dislike veggies.
FWIW diabetes does not arise purely out of the consumption of sucrose. It's caused by the body not being able to react appropriately to increases in blood glucose. Those spikes can come from ice cream, soda pop, starchy vegetables, beans, juices, donuts, bread,... it's not just sugary snacks and desserts.

And keto is not what you think. With keto, most of your calories (about 70% per day) come from fats, 20-25% from protein, and 5-10% from carbohydrates . Many people (including those starting to eat keto) think of keto as a high-protein diet and it is not that at all. I eat about 90 grams of protein a day. Too much gets turned int a bump in my blood glucose. And limiting oneself to those few carbs a day pretty much leaves you with not-unlimited amounts of leafy greens, cauliflower, broccoli, cabbage, string beans, and sprouts. btw I'm not suggesting you go keto at this time; just pointing out that it's not what you think.


Why can't I just not eat the things that trigger me?
Well, that is the central question, isn't it? A lot depends on how easy they are for you to avoid. Pizza and buffets are loaded with carbs, particularly the more processed ones because they're cheap. You can avoid them, but you may be better off knowing just what it is that triggers you. Is it the highly-processed carbs? The sodium level? The fact that these foods are eaten outside the home? Figure that out and you'll have a better idea of just what to avoid.

[JaneV2.0]

...
And keto is not what you think. With keto, most of your calories (about 70% per day) come from fats, 20-25% from protein, and 5-10% from carbohydrates . Many people (including those starting to eat keto) think of keto as a high-protein diet and it is not that at all. I eat about 90 grams of protein a day. Too much gets turned int a bump in my blood glucose. And limiting oneself to those few carbs a day pretty much leaves you with not-unlimited amounts of leafy greens, cauliflower, broccoli, cabbage, string beans, and sprouts. btw I'm not suggesting you go keto at this time; just pointing out that it's not what you think. ...

And you can always go low-carb (maybe 70-100 gm daily) without embracing ketosis. The book Life Without Bread spells that option out nicely.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I suspect the trigger is hyperpalatability, I've said it before.

https://io9.gizmodo.com/how-hyperpalatable-foods-could-turn-you-into-a-food-add-1575144399

But shrug maybe it's emotional.

I mean sometimes the point of somewhat self-destructive behaviors is because it's self-destructive, and in that case then it all depends on how well contained it is, if it's once in a blue moon then it's probably more useful than not as catharsis, if not then not.

[JaneV2.0]

Or, if you're not fat-adapted, maybe it's about refilling glycogen stores.

[Ultralight]

I have a temporary sponsor.

[Ultralight]

So not too long before I went to OA I had this flash of a realization. I have mentioned this perhaps already, but bear with me. I realized that there was no way I was going to put this demon back on its leash unless I changed who I am, unless I changed my identity. As Foodie with the inside info on all the best ethnic foods in the city I was all about food.

I am progressing into the OA program. I have an appointment sent up with my health coach. I have not been in a restaurant in over a week. I have not been to a restaurant alone in well over a week. I am cooking simple, healthy meals at home that include veggies and all manner of real, whole foods. Nothing heavily processed.

What will fill this void in my identity that Foodie so powerfully took up? Do I need to fill it? Can I fill it? What would be good -- truly good -- to fill it with?

I would like it to be something as compelling as food but healthy and worthwhile.

[Ultralight]

Well, that is the central question, isn't it? A lot depends on how easy they are for you to avoid. Pizza and buffets are loaded with carbs, particularly the more processed ones because they're cheap. You can avoid them, but you may be better off knowing just what it is that triggers you. Is it the highly-processed carbs? The sodium level? The fact that these foods are eaten outside the home? Figure that out and you'll have a better idea of just what to avoid.

I would say these things trigger the heck out of me:
-Pizza
-Chips & salsa
-Almost any kind of buffet
-Milk & honey together (strange in a way, but also kind of makes sense; if I include oatmeal it does not seem to trigger me)
-White breads
-Particle meat (burgers, sausages, etc.)

[Tybee]

I have a temporary sponsor.

Way to go! That is not easy to do, so congratulations and well done!

[SteveinMN]

I am progressing into the OA program. I have an appointment sent up with my health coach. I have not been in a restaurant in over a week. I have not been to a restaurant alone in well over a week. I am cooking simple, healthy meals at home that include veggies and all manner of real, whole foods. Nothing heavily processed.

What will fill this void in my identity that Foodie so powerfully took up? Do I need to fill it? Can I fill it? What would be good -- truly good -- to fill it with?
You still can be a Foodie, just with a different perspective. There's no need to fill that void with something else if you don't want to.

As I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, I used to be Mr. Restaurant as well. That part of my being a Foodie faded away in the face of the income reduction we accepted when I left Corporate America. But I still was a Foodie: I enjoy eating food, I enjoy preparing food, I enjoy reading about food and restaurants,... I just didn't get to restaurants as often. I relied on the opinions of others I respected to winnow out the best places to go for Hmong food or Brussels sprouts dishes or for people who wanted a work get-together in a private room at a restaurant which could satisfy a variety of (picky) eaters without resembling Golden Corral. ;) That works; DW and a friend of ours were out of town a couple of weeks ago and took a tip from a Foodie blogger I know who recommended an ethnic restaurant for a cuisine no one would expect in a city no one would suspect. It was great food and won two new converts to the cuisine without me giving the place a test run first.

You can now be Mr. Ingredients or Mr. Cook At Home Without A Big Kitchen. All that money you were spending on eating out can be spent on better or more unusual ingredients or better tools. There's no reason you cannot cook Ethiopian food at home. If you're not gorging on burgers or sausages, you can spend that money on better muscle cuts or fresh fish. You can try "boutique" vegetables to see if you'll like them. You can make your own bread (you really don't need much to do that). You can create your niche how to make food from your favorite cuisine (or in the style of your favorite cuisine) with whole foods or limited space -- what are the shortcuts that help you make food that's good for you and not too complicated/messy to make?

It took me several months to completely get over the loss of being a total Foodie brought on by my diagnosis of diabetes. But I'm finally perusing cooking magazines and Web sites for new recipes, thinking about how I can adapt them to meet a ketogenic eating plan. Sometimes it's easy. Sometimes it requires multiple whacks at a recipe, tweaking it each time. But I'm a Foodie. I enjoy eating food, I enjoy preparing food, and I enjoy reading about food. What I can eat is more restricted, but I've always enjoyed the challenge of cooking for guests with dietary restrictions, so I should value myself at least as much as I value guests, in this regard. You can find your niche, too.


I would say these things trigger the heck out of me:
-Pizza
-Chips & salsa
-Almost any kind of buffet
-Milk & honey together (strange in a way, but also kind of makes sense; if I include oatmeal it does not seem to trigger me)
-White breads
-Particle meat (burgers, sausages, etc.)
Well, except for the particle meat, everything you mentioned has a fair amount of carbohydrates in them, in particular white wheat flour (at buffets it's in the noodles/pasta/dumplings/rice, batters, and gravies/sauces). Are there foods made of white wheat flour which are not triggers? The particle meat trigger is interesting to me for its specificity. Is it the texture or the fat content (both burgers and sausages being higher in fat than muscle cuts)? Are they triggers if you eat them without a bun (that darned old white wheat again)?

[JaneV2.0]

I couldn't agree more, Steve. I've eaten low carb in all kinds of places serving all kinds of cuisines. Low carb and Keto cookbooks abound, if that's one's style of eating. I'm with you--I've got taste buds, and I like food, and I've been able to reconcile that with whatever other constraints I'm imposing on myself.

[Oddball]

Congrats on becoming ready and willing to change. That is the hardest and most important step.

You don't need a new identity. The one you needed to shed was false to begin with. Don't pick up another false one.

There's a difference between how you are and who you are. How you are can change. Who you are never changes.

Don't sweat the religiosity either. It's all just symbolism. If you don't need that, don't use it. Use reality instead.

Some good, mostly secular reading on this: "The Untethered Soul" (except the last chapter) by Michael Singer. Also "Full Catastrophe Living" and/or "Wherever You Go, There You Are" by Jon Kabat-Zinn.

[rosarugosa]

Congrats on becoming ready and willing to change. That is the hardest and most important step.

You don't need a new identity. The one you needed to shed was false to begin with. Don't pick up another false one.

There's a difference between how you are and who you are. How you are can change. Who you are never changes.

Don't sweat the religiosity either. It's all just symbolism. If you don't need that, don't use it. Use reality instead.

Some good, mostly secular reading on this: "The Untethered Soul" (except the last chapter) by Michael Singer. Also "Full Catastrophe Living" and/or "Wherever You Go, There You Are" by Jon Kabat-Zinn.

Oddball: I like your comments on the difference between one's who and one's how. I remember how much I identified myself as a smoker, and how it was an adjustment to change that image of myself. In retrospect, I think that seems a bit sad and maybe bizarre, but it's true. It also turned out to be true that non-smoker me is a better version of me than the smoking edition. :) DH & I did kind of trade smoking for walking, so I do think there is validity to the notion of a hole to be filled.

[Oddball]

Hi, Rosa.

The filling of holes is an interesting thing. There are no holes in the true, most essential self. Only in the imagined self, which is the source, if not always the cause, of the original pain. When you realize there are no holes to fill, except in your awareness, you can start working from the inside instead of the outside. This "inside" is the true higher power represented in the symbolism of 12 Steps.

This symbolism is helpful to many people in the early stages of change. Eventually, though, you must go inward. Running, walking, making art, volunteering, writing -- these are all great and even therapeutic pursuits, but they are external and therefore not who we are. They are merely what we do, which is just as mutable as how we are. They are not part of our essential selves.

Until you realize and accept that you are already and permanently enough, without feeling the need to identify yourself by your accomplishments, you cannot heal fully.

Another great writer on this topic is Eckhart Tolle. He might seem cultish under all the spotlights of Oprah, etc., but if you cover up his name and the marketing lingo on the covers of his books and just read the words, they are deeply true and basically boil down to this.

[Geila]

Oddhat - When I tried OA years ago, I was really put off by a few things: the use of the Higher Power which was presented as an external (rather than internal) source of strength, the constant refrain that overeating was a moral failure, and the constant self-abuse language when someone failed their HP and overate. I believe that overeating is a symptom, not the cause. A coping mechanism if you will. Also, I'm pretty sure there is a chemical component to it, i.e, a person who is low on serotonin/dopamine/whatever receives a chemical boost from food that temporarily fills them up with the needed brain chemicals. Nothing to be ashamed of. But there was lots of shame at the meetings I attended.

Anyway, I'd like to find a way to reconcile those bothersome things and give it another chance. When you mentioned symbolism versus reality, it made me think that maybe I can do that. Would you be willing to help me? If I can find a way to reconcile these things that bother me, maybe in time the community can be a source of support and growth.

[JaneV2.0]

I'm convinced that most of what we consider eating maladaptations are physiological, rather than psychological, in origin.
I've never been a fan of the twelve-step approach, for many reasons.

[KayLR]

Oddhat - When I tried OA years ago, I was really put off by a few things: the use of the Higher Power which was presented as an external (rather than internal) source of strength, the constant refrain that overeating was a moral failure, and the constant self-abuse language when someone failed their HP and overate. .... But there was lots of shame at the meetings I attended.


I attended one, and one only, OA meeting. THAT was the deal-breaker for me, the self-abuse language, of how bad and disgusting I am. Good grief, how are people supposed to work through that?

[Tybee]

I attended one, and one only, OA meeting. THAT was the deal-breaker for me, the self-abuse language, of how bad and disgusting I am. Good grief, how are people supposed to work through that?

Wow, that is horrible! I had no idea there were OA meetings like that. No one should go to a group that tells them they are bad and disgusting. Is that what happened for you Kay and you Oddhat? that is horrible!

[Teacher Terry]

That is disgusting! How does anyone get better if made to feel worthless?

[Ultralight]

Oddhat - When I tried OA years ago, I was really put off by a few things: the use of the Higher Power which was presented as an external (rather than internal) source of strength, the constant refrain that overeating was a moral failure, and the constant self-abuse language when someone failed their HP and overate.

I have been to 7 or 8 meetings so far. I said in the meeting I struggled a little with the higher power thing because I am atheist. Right afterward, a woman who said she was very religious in the meeting came up to me. I thought: "Here we go... preachin' time."

Nope. She said: "This group and the community you feel here can be your higher power. Keep coming back."

I don't remember anyone in any meeting I have been to saying that overeating was a moral failure. I would be turned off by that. So I think I would notice if someone said that.

No one has said anything I would consider self-abusing. Some folks, myself included, have said we feel a little insane when under the influence of certain foods. Others have said they feel powerless to certain foods. Is that what you mean by language of self-abuse?

The meetings I have been to have be positive, candid, sometimes funny, and the topics of love and support are strongly represented.

This has just been my experience though, in my city and in the groups I attended.

[Ultralight]

I attended one, and one only, OA meeting. THAT was the deal-breaker for me, the self-abuse language, of how bad and disgusting I am. Good grief, how are people supposed to work through that?

I have experienced nothing like this and I have attended 7 or 8 meetings at different locations with different members.

[Ultralight]

Wow, that is horrible! I had no idea there were OA meetings like that. No one should go to a group that tells them they are bad and disgusting. Is that what happened for you Kay and you Oddhat? that is horrible!

I would suggest you attend a meeting or two, and explore it for yourself.

My experiences have been very positive and supportive.

[Ultralight]

That is disgusting! How does anyone get better if made to feel worthless?

Jump to conclusions much? haha

I have gotten a very different message -- that I am worthy and that the other members are there to support each other. But I have only been to 7 or 8 meetings.

[Oddball]

Oddhat - When I tried OA years ago, I was really put off by a few things: the use of the Higher Power which was presented as an external (rather than internal) source of strength, the constant refrain that overeating was a moral failure, and the constant self-abuse language when someone failed their HP and overate. I believe that overeating is a symptom, not the cause. A coping mechanism if you will. Also, I'm pretty sure there is a chemical component to it, i.e, a person who is low on serotonin/dopamine/whatever receives a chemical boost from food that temporarily fills them up with the needed brain chemicals. Nothing to be ashamed of. But there was lots of shame at the meetings I attended.

Anyway, I'd like to find a way to reconcile those bothersome things and give it another chance. When you mentioned symbolism versus reality, it made me think that maybe I can do that. Would you be willing to help me? If I can find a way to reconcile these things that bother me, maybe in time the community can be a source of support and growth.
Hi, Geila.

You're right. Overeating and other behaviors are just symptoms. Even cancer is just a symptom (the disease is the person's inborn or acquired susceptibility combined with the stress that the body yielded to).

And there is certainly nothing to feel guilty of or ashamed about. There is no moral failure, only the coping mechanisms we adopt very early on. The coping mechanisms are figments of the ego, which is real and which can be overridden with practice. An ego error is not a moral failure. It's just a downside of being human.

And yes, there are chemical and mechanical issues too. Sometimes we have to accept our shortcomings and deal with them as best we can.

I'm happy to help you or anyone else, though I am no expert. I've just spent many years trying to heal and have made a lot of progress. I have not done 12 Steps, but I've read the program and have friends who have done it with great success. These friends have no problem with the symbolism and seem to find it helpful. I was always put off by it and found another way to get better, including reading the books I mentioned above plus many others.

If you'd like to reconcile those bothersome things and give OA another shot, I think that can be done. I think it's mainly a matter of separating out the symbolism and translating it to what's being symbolized. Reality is intimidating to a lot of people, which is why symbolism is used so widely and successfully (or not) by religions and mythology and even some branches of medicine. Even movies and TV shows are just symbols, and it's no wonder people escape through them. Anything to avoid facing reality.

[Tybee]

I would suggest you attend a meeting or two, and explore it for yourself.

My experiences have been very positive and supportive.

I am very glad you have had good experiences! that is great.

[Geila]

Hi Oddhat,

Thank you for the reply. This is the part that confuses me because I don't know what it means:

"I think it's mainly a matter of separating out the symbolism and translating it to what's being symbolized."

Could you elaborate? Maybe give an example to help me understand?

[KayLR]

The meeting I attended was many years ago, so things may have changed. I was only a visitor, but clearly remember the recitation of some kind of pledge or unison declaration at the beginning of the meeting. (I've tried to look it up to see if it is still in use or available somewhere online, but couldn't find it---so maybe it was only used here locally). The gist of it was "this is what I am, this is what I do, I cannot ever forget how weak, helpless and pathetic I am."

I hope it's changed. Truthfully, that is the gist of what they recited and I left and vowed never to go back.

[Oddball]

Hi Oddhat,

Thank you for the reply. This is the part that confuses me because I don't know what it means:

"I think it's mainly a matter of separating out the symbolism and translating it to what's being symbolized."

Could you elaborate? Maybe give an example to help me understand?
Geila, I'll give it a shot, though I think the books I mentioned above do it better.

As humans, we have two "selves" -- the essential self and the ego self. As far as we know, other creatures don't have egos.

The essential self is mostly how we were when we were born, before the world shaped us.

As Carl Sagan said, we are all "star stuff," meaning we and everything else on Earth are made of the same stuff found throughout the universe (carbon, hydrogen, etc.). This "star stuff" is just energy, which means that we, at our essential level, are also just energy.

Everything about us -- our bodies, brains, thoughts, ideas, efforts, traditions -- is also therefore just energy.

The thing about energy is that it never dies. It only gets transformed or redirected. This is basic science, not religion. But this is what the scriptures mean by "eternal life." It's not about souls and spirits, it's about science.

So that's the essential self.

The ego self is all the noise we add to our self-image because we are human and think we are not enough as we are at the essential level. The following things are part of the ego self:

Our opinions, beliefs, prejudices, political leanings, careers, talents, hobbies, knowledge, passions, family identity, cultural identity, ethnic and racial identity, memories, traumas, education, and the list goes on.

These things form the basis of who we think we are. None of them are part of the essential self. Most of them are changeable, and the ones that aren't, such as race or memories of traumatic events that have affected us, we can still change how we think about.

So the ego self is just who we think we are, not who we actually are at the essential level.

To make an ego error is to confuse how we are with who we are. It's not a moral failing, just an honest mistake. Scriptures call this "sin," which translates as "missing the mark." There was never any intended moral judgment in the word "sin." That's just how the word was twisted and used by religions to gain power over followers.

So what is God? Or the Higher Power? God and Higher Power are just symbols representing the essential self, the being that you are at your most core level, the being that you were before the tribulations of life happened to you and before society told you that you needed a bunch of other stuff to lug around with you, such as beliefs, opinions, expertise, social stature, a good career (whatever that means), a religion (or something else to believe in), a solid education, a certain car, a house, and so forth.

If you strip away all the noise of civilized life, you eventually return to your essential self. In Western religion, this is called "salvation" or being "born again." In Eastern philosophies, it's called enlightenment.

Whatever you call it, it's just a new awareness that how you are -- or, rather, who you think you are -- is not the same as who you really are at the core level.

With this new awareness, you could read through the 12 steps and interpret them differently, without the symbolism:

1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.

Or: We admitted that we confused our ego self and our essential self and that the ego self lost control, leading us into reliance on a coping mechanism (drinking) that became a habit.

2. Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.

Or: We came to realize that the ego self had taken over where our essential self should have been in control.

3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Or: Once we realized that our ego self had taken over for the essential self, we gave control back to the essential self, where it belongs.

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.

Or: We realized all the noise of the ego and called it what it is: just noise.

5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.

Or: Here you can just make a list of all things you "think" you are that are not part of you essential self: Your career, your social status, your expert knowledge, all the awards you've won, all the money you've earned or spent or saved or wasted. See list above.

6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

Or: Became ready to see ourselves as we truly are, not as who we thought we were.

7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

OR: Agreed to focus from now on on who we truly are at our core and forget about (or at least try to minimize) all the ego noise.

8. Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.

This will vary by person, but if you need to apologize to or forgive someone, just do it. You don't have to do it face to face. Just let it go and chalk it up to lessons learned. Grudges, anger, grief, and victim identity are all part of the ego self. You can let them go now. Just take them off like an old ragged coat and toss them.

9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.

Do this if you must or feel you need to.

10. Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.

Or: Just do something simple every day like make a mental list off all the things that, at any given moment, are not part of your essential self. Whatever those things are, they are just noise and can be cast off.

11. Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

Just keep reminding yourself that how you are -- or how you used to be -- is not the same as who you are at your core.

12. Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

Or: Having realized that Carl Sagan and our basic eighth-grade science classes were right about humans being "star stuff," we now realize that the things we thought defined us were just bogus notions of the ego that we adopted in order to impress or satisfy other people or society. Now that we are free of all that nonsense, we can go about life with a greater awareness of who we really are, that we are perfectly whole and OK just as we are at the essential level. All the rest is noise.

[Geila]

Wow. This is fantastic. Thank you so much. I'm going to read it a few times and let it soak in before I reply.

[Oddball]

Just want to add that "ego noise" is my own term.

There is nothing wrong with, or bad about, the ego or any of the things that are part of the ego identity. It's all part of being human and getting by in the world. But it needs to be kept in balance.

This is the challenge of being human. Learning to keep the ego in check is one reason we are here. The goal is not to eliminate the ego, just to keep it in perspective.

The essential self is the adult. The ego self is the child. Don't let the kid drive the car. Keep the adult in the driver's seat. That's what mindfulness and meditation are all about -- staying in the driver's seat.

When the ego takes over -- when the kid drives the car -- all kinds of things can go wrong: depression, addiction, violence, low self-esteem, jealousy, resentment, eventually illness.

Kids (egos) take things personally and either lash out or withdraw. They have a distorted view of reality. Keep the adult in the driver's seat. That's how you stay on the road.

These are just more symbols now. Ignore them if they're confusing.

[Geila]

Hi Oddball - I just realized that I've been calling you Oddhat instead of Oddball! I'm so sorry! :|(

The alternate responses you gave for the 12 Steps are very helpful. Totally different than what I would have ever come up with. It makes it really easy to dismiss the negative response to the steps because this different view is so much more appealing and useful to me. I was getting really caught up in the wording of the steps because it created a conflict between my beliefs and values and what the steps language says to me. I experience that same conflict with organized religion. This is helpful for that as well. I think the challenge now will be for me to allow others to have their own beliefs and not feel the need to impose my own view on them. I need to respect the right of others to hold beliefs that feel harmful to me. And to keep my mouth shut about it.

Interestingly, your example of the child as ego and adult as essential self stirred up some uncomfortable feelings for me. I was abused as a child and I feel such tremendous respect for the child that I was and the fact that she survived the abuse without losing her humanity and kindness. I feel a reluctance to see her as the ego. I know that it's just a symbol that you used, but it was interesting to see how that brought up feelings for me.

Speaking of symbols, I took a class once that dealt a lot with symbolism and it was such a hard class for me! I couldn't get a handle on how symbols work. My brain couldn't wrap itself around it. I've been pretty busy these last few days so I haven't had a chance to see if my brain can use the examples you gave for the 12 steps to try to crack the symbolism key. I've been working a bit on just accepting things without trying to over-analyze, which I tend to do quite a bit. I remember when I took my math classes and struggled so much because I didn't understand math. I was told that with enough repetition, the brain would learn, even without my understanding it. I didn't believe it, but sure enough, given enough practice that's exactly what happened. I'm going to spend some time with this material over the weekend just soaking it in without trying to analyze it.

Thanks so much for this.

[Ultralight]

HatBall would have been worse. :)

[Oddball]

Geila, no worries on the screen name. It's just a symbol. ;)

Remember that beliefs, values, principles, and other alliances are all part of the ego self. The more you can let go of them, the closer you will get to your essential self. You did not come into the world with these biases. You acquired them. One book I read explains the concept of "false maturity," meaning all the ego stuff we acquire in order to protect ourselves. Your're on the right track with letting people have their own values and beliefs. We all feel the need to protect ourselves with these ego add-ons. Compassion, in part, is the ability to understand this and to allow other people to have their security blankets. Meanwhile, we grow and mature by learning to let go of our own security blankets.

Regarding the child vs. the adult. Don't take this too literally. What I mean is maturity level. The essential self is far more mature than the ego self. When you were a child, you actually might have been much closer to your essential self than you are now as an adult. In some ways, all of us might have been wiser as kids. Time and experience can pull us in either direction on the continuum of wisdom and maturity. Bottom line is that the more mature version of ourselves is the one who should be in control.

Maturity is measured by your ability to recognize the delusions of your ego self and replace them with the clear vision of your essential self. This is the goal of 12 Steps and other methods of personal growth.

[Tammy]

For you ultralite:

:https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/non-believers-say-their-prayers-to-no-one/2013/06/24/b7c8cf50-d915-11e2-a9f2-42ee3912ae0e_story.html