View Full Version : Slavery in the US
I was surprised today to read the Thirteenth Amendment which allows slavery for prisoners. From what I have heard Trump's proposed criminal justice reform bill does not tackle this issue and both government and private corporations in some states pay slave wages of pennies per dollar to prisoners.
Massachusetts does pay regular wages to inmates on work release. Funds go first to child support to minimize the state having to pick up the tab in welfare payments to raise their kids, then most of the balance goes into an account the prisoner gets upon release to get back on his or her feet. There may be deductions for transportation to or from the job site, something like $10 per day. One man got out with enough to buy himself a vehicle so he could get to and from work. This is the way I think prison labor should work.
Ultralight
11-17-18, 9:20am
Most Americans probably support turning prisoners into all-out slaves. I think most would support using them in medical experiments too. And I think a majority, or close to it, would gleefully watch executions on TV or live in person.
dado potato
11-17-18, 11:34am
North Carolina Department of Public Safety expresses pride in their programs to "put inmates to work, teach valuable skills, and save money for the state".
http://ncdps.gov/About-DPS/Sections/Administration/Central-Engineering/Inmate-Construction-Program
Federal Prison Industries "Unicor" has a waiting list of federal inmates who would like to work for them, because they pay approximately 90 cents an hour, versus the rate of 12-40 cents that is paid for prison jobs in the laundry, kitchen, buildings and grounds.
As wildfires rage in the west, I understand that the firefighters include crews of inmates.
iris lilies
11-17-18, 11:52am
Once I got a job application from someone who had mark in the box of previous salary “$.10 an hour”. That clued me in that he spent time in the penitentiary.
My heart goes out to those who have to put 10 cents an hour in their previous salary. I hope he was able to find work.
iris lilies
11-17-18, 11:54am
I was surprised today to read the Thirteenth Amendment which allows slavery for prisoners. From what I have heard Trump's proposed criminal justice reform bill does not tackle this issue and both government and private corporations in some states pay slave wages of pennies per dollar to prisoners.
Massachusetts does pay regular wages to inmates on work release. Funds go first to child support to minimize the state having to pick up the tab in welfare payments to raise their kids, then most of the balance goes into an account the prisoner gets upon release to get back on his or her feet. There may be deductions for transportation to or from the job site, something like $10 per day. One man got out with enough to buy himself a vehicle so he could get to and from work. This is the way I think prison labor should work.
Slavery isnt, of course, defined by an hourly rate for wages. But you know that.
Zoe Girl
11-17-18, 12:00pm
I think the point of slavery is that they do not get choices or anywhere near a wage that will help them transition to outside employment. I would go bonkers without something to do so I would love a job if I were in that situation, however it must really stink to get 10 cents an hour. The firefighters who are prisoners deserve so much credit. I would be scared to death, I hope that we treat them well.
For me when you lose civil liberties I think you should still have what choices you can. You lose choices because you were unsafe and caused harm, and the consequences relate to that. Not necessarily a reason to become slave labor.
JaneV2.0
11-17-18, 12:20pm
Angola prison in Louisiana is one of the worst offenders; I've seen it described as "basically a plantation." Disgusting.
ApatheticNoMore
11-17-18, 12:26pm
They should be paid minimum wage of course. If early release depends on doing the work it is slavery outright, being held against one's will or work, I don't know how you could call that anything else.
Whether it is strictly slavery otherwise seems like a needle on a pin discussion as in I hardly think it's the main issue (but that is correct about the constitution allowing it, that is a legal aspect - I don't know to what extent it or other loopholes are being used as the legal cover), as I get where this thread is actually going: the use of prison labor in this country is shocking.
And it's not all work like do some useful stuff around the prison which I think you could make a case for, or even making license plates (which you really couldn't but ...). I don't have figures but that seems to be a very small amount of what prison labor consists of and to look at it that way is probably very misleading. It should instead be looked at as a profit center for corporations and a source of cheap labor.
EVERY and I do mean pretty much EVERY large corporation uses prison labor as do some governments (as I've tried to find out who uses it so I wouldn't buy from them, and wow it was like everyone, and I realized such a boycott might be impossible to carry out, may as well boycott air almost). It is a profit center period and just about every large corporation in America is using it.
They use them for call centers (next time you are thrilled to pieces to actually get someone who speaks English on the phone ... could be, of course also could not be as I never said ALL call centers are prisoners). They are used for manufacturing (next time you buy a product "made in the USA" it might be made in the U.S. by prisoners (actually I do prefer the label as conditions elsewhere are often terrible too and it's not necessarily prison labor, but I know it's hard to tell ... I wish there was a label "prison free").
It is telling than in all Trumps talk about immigrants taking jobs which is true to some extent, or jobs being outsourced which is true to a huge extent, there is no talk about prisoners taking jobs that would otherwise be available - but it's the truth (I don't know if it would still be used but prison labor would not be so appealing if it wasn't super cheap labor). It shows how consistent he isn't. Once upon a time in the labor movement there used to be opposition to prison labor. Not now (except the I.W.W.).
iris lilies
11-17-18, 12:58pm
A status of “slave “ meant you were chattell, property. Not that you lacked in choices (which of course You did!) or that your pay was pennies on the dollar ( what pay?).
Have a discussion about prison labor if you like, but using the word Slave about it is silly and I liken it to the over used word “nazi” and other words used in hyperbolic ways. This use lessens the real experience of slavery and Nazi regimes.
When our friend went to the penitentiary for killing his wife, he mused alloud at his “going off to prison party” that he hoped he would be assigned a job because he doesn’t like sitting still.
ApatheticNoMore
11-17-18, 1:07pm
A status of “slave “ meant you were chattell, property. Not that you lacked in choices (which of course You did!) or that your pay was pennies on the dollar ( what pay?).
Have a discussion about prison labor if you like, but using the word Slave about it is silly and I liken it to the over used word “nazi” and other words used in hyperbolic ways.
whether it is accurate in this context depends on to what extent Amendments passed to address slavery and it's legal and illegal uses, are used as the legal justification here. I don't know, there may be any number of other legal justifications for low paid prison labor (there are some exceptions to the minimum wage). But if it is used then discussion of slavery is relevant.
Aren't the exceptions for jobs where you get tips on top of your wages?
It sounds to me like prisoners are being treated as property by the employers, so I don't see the distinction.
Teacher Terry
11-17-18, 1:28pm
In Nevada the prison jobs pay very little but many are just glad to have something to do. They made beautiful oak office furniture that the state employees used. They also use them for firefighters. I think they should be paid minimum wage. I wouldn’t have attended a going to prison party for a murderer.
iris lilies
11-17-18, 2:01pm
It sounds to me like prisoners are being treated as property by the employers, so I don't see the distinction.
You see no distinction between the status of slave, one human owned by another human, and a resident of the United ted States justice system in this year of 2018?
Well, ok.
They also use them for firefighters. I think they should be paid minimum wage.
I don't get paid minimum wage for firefighting usually.
My understanding is that prisoners used for wildland firefighting are all volunteers. (Wildland firefighting is suspiciously similar to ditchdigging, btw, it is not nearly the skilled professsion that structural firefighting or rescue work are. To get your red card, you have to pass a work capacity test, then several days of ICS training, ditch digging training, and safety training.)
IL, I expressed what I said, because of the definition of chattel or property--were you not the one who gave that definition? Sorry if I misread something you wrote.
I was reacting to the definition. I guess chattel slavery has a specific meaning, too.
That was what I meant when I said I did not see a big distinction, with one person being "owned" by another in the sense that that the owner reaps the benefits of the labor of the chattel, for no money.
Maybe that was why they came up with the 10 cent salary, so that they could not claim that they were giving them "no money."
iris lilies
11-17-18, 2:55pm
IL, I expressed what I said, because of the definition of chattel or property--were you not the one who gave that definition? Sorry if I misread something you wrote.
I was reacting to the definition. I guess chattel slavery has a specific meaning, too.
That was what I meant when I said I did not see a big distinction, with one person being "owned" by another in the sense that that the owner reaps the benefits of the labor of the chattel, for no money.
Maybe that was why they came up with the 10 cent salary, so that they could not claim that they were giving them "no money."
My argument is you said you dont see “the distinction” which means you see No distinction. No difference between prisoner and slave. Now, if you allow that there is some distinction as in your 2nd post with no “ big distinction” you are recognizing that there is some difference between the two, and I accept that.
Entirely within the framework of paid labor, most slaves received zero monies but more importantly had no choice as to their assignments. Prisoners have some choice of their assignments, there is a range of behaviors concerning paid employment in prisons.
A quick lesson on chattel is that as an owner of property, I can do as I like with the property. My slave is my property. My dog is my property. If I make a decision to kill either one, within a legal framework that is fine although there are restrictions today on how dogs are killed, humane treatment laws come into play.
Really, I just cannot wrap my head around people having actual thoughts that slavery is exactly and completely akin to being a prisoner in the United States of America. I just can’t do it. I wont even mention The myriad of prisoner’s rights organizations that monitor this kind of thing. Of course being a prisoner is terrible in most ways, I wouldn’t argue otherwise.But that isnt the topic on this thread, so far anyway.
I thought that the topic was coming at it from another direction, which is why I said what I said. I thought the OP was saying not that we should see no distinction, but rather that we should see some connection--to look at this kind of conscripted labor is being similar to what was in place with chattel slavery. I was responding to that.
It feels like you are twisting what I am saying and extrapolating upon it to say that what you said in your last paragraph. I did not say that and do not appreciate you doing this.
Thanks.
Ultralight
11-17-18, 3:01pm
You see no distinction between the status of slave, one human owned by another human, and a resident of the United ted States justice system in this year of 2018?
Well, ok.
Where is Rob to join this conversation? LOL
I worked for two years as the mental health nurse in a 600 bed county jail in Ohio. In that environment, the inmates have the choice of whether to enter the work program. No one was forced to work. Instead of being paid monetarily, they received days off their sentence for days worked. There were long lines waiting to get into the work program.
Seemed fair to me and I didn’t get a feeling of slavery about it.
However I really like that idea about paying minimum wage and giving it to them in release. Lack of money is a big barrier in reducing recidivism.
Another barrier is lack of current skills, so the minimum wage suggestion that Tammy makes would serve two purposes, that people could get work experience and have money to help them when they got out.
But I guess that does not speak to another issue, with is making some kind of restitution to victims.
Where is Rob to join this conversation? LOL
Don't prisoners get free healthcare, free housing, and free food?
Maybe the employers who get their labor for free or ten cents and hour should have to pay half of what they are making on the free prison labor to the victims' families.
Maybe the employers who get their labor for free or ten cents and hour should have to pay half of what they are making on the free prison labor to the victims' families.
What portion of prisoners are in for victimless crimes?
A good question! If a company is getting rich on the free labor of the prisoner who hurt someone else (so not a victimless crime) why should not some restitution be made to the family that was deprived of that person?
The US has the highest incarceration rate on the planet, and the highest *absolute* number of people in prison.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_incarceration_rate
There's clearly something really messed up, somewhere....
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/e/ec/Prisoners_world_map_png2.png/2560px-Prisoners_world_map_png2.png
Teacher Terry
11-17-18, 4:41pm
Lots of low level drug offenders end up in prison.
I agree Bae. About 90% of the inmates I worked with were people just like me. They just got unlucky, or did something stupid and got caught. Lots of drug charges that were nonviolent.
I’m all for decriminalizing all drug use and treating the addictions where indicated.
Convicted criminals are not high on the priority list for my limited quantity of allocable sympathy. I have no problem making them work for their keep or to make some sort of restitution to their victims.
I think slavery is much too broad a term for this. It's more a limited indentured servitude, and I'm OK with it.
I'm pretty ok with convicts working to either pay restitution or to save up enough money that they at least have some hope of not recidivizing after they get out. What I'm not ok with is my taxes paying to house someone in a private prison and the prison then profiting off of super cheap labor in addition to my taxes.
ApatheticNoMore
11-19-18, 11:25pm
Working around the prisons, yea that's kind of a gray area. I'm not ok with them working for for-profit corporations for less than the legal minimum wage. And really not for government entities that are just using them for cheap labor (in the exact same way as the corporations are really) for less than the legal minimum wage either.
What is magical about "minimum wage"? Prevailing wage should apply, otherwise someone is still profiting off the surplus value of their labor, plus also driving down wages and job opportunities for non-prisoners.
Chinese prisoners subject to forced labor have several times left notes reporting on their conditions discovered by American consumers inside designer handbags. This is a global problem.
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