View Full Version : Homeless at the library
After reading up on it a bit, sounds like homeless hanging out at public libraries is an issue across the country. In our city, many patrons have stopped using the downtown library as the homeless have taken over - sitting in available chairs most of the day, bathing or using drugs in the restrooms, camping just outside the doors at night etc. Some come to use the computers to look for jobs.
I am dismayed and perplexed at how to deal with this issue. Some libraries are hiring social workers. As a public entity, is it a right to use it as a place to stay warm and use the bathroom? Thoughts?
Chicken lady
12-8-18, 12:50pm
Station the social workers in the restrooms? Random drug dog patrols?
i feel like bathing in the restroom is ok as long as you leave the area clean. And yes, you should be able to use the toilets and stay warm. The opportunity to clean yourself makes this more pleasant for others.
i do not think you should be able to use the public library as a drug den. Nor do I think you should be allowed to create a disruption. Some of our local libraries have quiet rooms with half glass walls, tables, and chairs, that are reserved for minors doing solo research, schoolwork, writing, or reading. There are other rooms that are reserved for tutoring and group (of any age) projects. The computers kick you off after an hour and make you go to the end of the line to get back on. (They prompt you to save your work)
Ban the drug users. One strike and they're out. For everyone else, as long as they aren't disruptive they have as much right to be there as anyone.
iris lilies
12-8-18, 1:31pm
Random drug dog patrols? Are you kidding!!!???
more, later. Having worked in an urban core with the largest men’s shelter in the region across the street from the downtown library, I have a fair amount to say.
but dog patrols....ah, NO. Why do you think homeless are the only ones carrying illegal substances?
dado potato
12-8-18, 1:34pm
In my view, over-control of homeless persons can be a pressure tactic to induce them to "get out of town".
I noticed that Durango CO has attracted the attention of the ACLU, arguing that homelessness, per se, is not an offense... and it is unconstitutional to punish people for it. Durango's city manager seems to accept that the city can prevent homeless people from sleeping in a park or a public building, BECAUSE the city provides a space where the homeless can go. Durango's accommodation is a tenting area which is policed, which requires tents to be taken down and stored every morning. In Durango there is also a non-profit soup kitchen a few blocks walk from the tenting area. Residents along the route frequently call police to deal with trespassing, noise, public intoxication, etc.
If there is no convenient needle exchange, it seems predictable that addicts will use libraries or any other spaces they have access to. If there are no public toilets open at all hours, there will be a physical necessity to "go" when/where possible.
Ultralight
12-8-18, 1:38pm
Just privatize the libraries so that the owners can determine who is allowed in and who is not.
Chicken lady
12-8-18, 1:40pm
No, i wasn’t kidding, and no I don’t think that. I think if we can have “drug free schools” we should be able to have “drug free libraries” and if the drug dog sniffs the local judge or a librarian, search them too. Put a sign on the door letting people know the premises is monitored by dogs and let them make their own decisions. (And I have some librarian friends who smoke weed)
Teacher Terry
12-8-18, 1:40pm
Totally agree JP.
My experience at the library is since I don't bother the homeless they don't bother me.
Teacher Terry
12-8-18, 1:53pm
It’s one of the few places that they can get out of the weather.
Doesn’t mean that the homeless have a right to make the library unpleasant for other people. I’ve seen bathrooms trashed, seating taken over by chairs pushed together for someone to sleep on, having to step around people sleeping on the floor, etc.
Dealing with stinky homeless people or use eBooks?
Some libraries have reported issues of bed bug infestations from homeless people.
rosarugosa
12-8-18, 2:26pm
I guess this isn't really a problem out in the Burbs.
It wasn't an issue in our hometown but here it is a big and noticeable one. Here, anytime changes are suggested so that the general public can enjoy parks and libraries that homeless have claimed as their own, the ACLU steps in.
ApatheticNoMore
12-8-18, 3:00pm
I don't' think anyone even bothers to step in anymore, the homeless problem is far beyond that. Although I don't know about libraries, parks get cleared of homeless, homeless camps are cleared, still a homeless camp just pops up somewhere else. There just are a lot of people without housing.
Teacher Terry
12-8-18, 3:06pm
I haven’t been in a library in decades.
I haven’t been in a library in decades.
Why not? I only tapered off when it became physically difficult.
Our world-class library system (KCLS) is well-loved and well-used by all age groups.
Teacher Terry
12-8-18, 3:49pm
Because I either buy books used or download library books to my phone.
Because I either buy books used or download library books to my phone.
That's what I do now, along with snagging cheap Kindle books that appeal to me, but I miss browsing, and the ambience of the library.
Social worker seems like a pretty good idea. Since libraries are a place of information and social workers provide information on resources available to help people it seems like a logical thing to have them there.
https://www.citylab.com/life/2016/03/humanizing-homelessness-at-the-san-francisco-public-library/475740/
Homeless and those without a life action plan do use public facilities wherever possible. In our little town, a food court in a small mall was taken over by people just coming in the morning, smoking and sitting there for hours. Smoking was banned so some left. Eventually the sitting area was shut down, the problem moved to the library. People have been doing this forever. Look at pictures of the seniors sitting in parks all around Europe and socializing. People used to go to the local bars, order a beer and play checkers all day. The bar couldn't make money so eventually closed.
The use of drugs has added a dimension that causes greater problems.
There are those who are unemployed but volunteer extensively helping the community in which they live.
With greater automation coming soon, the problems are going to get more serious. Those working won't be able to support a larger group of homeless or those without an active life plan. It is going to take some innovative thinking and planning.
I really did not realize that the serious problems we are having with our big downtown library were all over. We now have reduced chairs in the big lobby, restrictions on use of tables and chairs by the coffee kiosk and an armed police presence in addition to the ordinary security guards. Even seems the computers are not used as much since there are now empty seats whenever I go.
We did have a knifing across the street and some belligerent customers in the library. I am sure the restrooms are problematic. I go quickly to get what I need and dont spend a lot of time in the library.
However a good thing is being done. I have seen a large desk area set up with volunteers to provide all kinds of assistance to those needing it. They had job postings, advice, sleeping bag type of things and some heavy clothes.
The city police patrol the inside of the public library in the nearest bit city to us. There is something wrong with that picture. Our problem isn't homeless but indigenous people.
Indigenous people??? Or did you mean indigent people?
ToomuchStuff
12-9-18, 10:28am
LOL, All I can think is the natives are getting restless.
iris lilies
12-9-18, 10:52am
No, i wasn’t kidding, and no I don’t think that. I think if we can have “drug free schools” we should be able to have “drug free libraries” and if the drug dog sniffs the local judge or a librarian, search them too. Put a sign on the door letting people know the premises is monitored by dogs and let them make their own decisions. (And I have some librarian friends who smoke weed)
“We” do not need or want drug free libraries, but if you want your local library to have dog patrols, go for it and work with your local Library Board. While you are at it, make it a gun free place. Oh wait, it probably IS that already, as is my library. Oddly that “No weapons” sign fails to keep out the shooting devices and knives; I just dont understand why people do not obey rules!
Anyway...
The carrying and use of drugs is not a special problem in my urban core downtown library in Murder City. The problem is behavioral problems by a variety of types of people. Drug culture might be part of that but I want to emphasize that it is only part of it. Mental health problems, cleanliness and personal grooming, hauling into the library crap tons of stuff, gang culture that results in fighting and vandalism—allthese are every day occurances. The first three are not the exclusive provence of homeless people.
Chicken lady
12-9-18, 11:16am
The op listed “using drugs in the restroom” as a problem. I proposed a solution. Do you have another solution to that IL?
I can totally support safe use areas, treatment programs, and anti-dealing enforcement, but none of those will eliminate the library problem. The dogs probably won’t either, but they would be the easiest and most efficient of these options. Removing restrooms from the library would be 100% effective, but I can’t support that.
Teacher Terry
12-9-18, 11:36am
The police aren’t going to waste their time patrolling library bathrooms. I don’t see that as a viable solution.
iris lilies
12-9-18, 11:45am
The op listed “using drugs in the restroom” as a problem. I proposed a solution. Do you have another solution to that IL?
I can totally support safe use areas, treatment programs, and anti-dealing enforcement, but none of those will eliminate the library problem. The dogs probably won’t either, but they would be the easiest and most efficient of these options. Removing restrooms from the library would be 100% effective, but I can’t support that.
As I read the OP, a variety of poor behaviors are listed not just use of drugs in the bathrooms. There are many inappropriate behaviors that take place in library bathrooms including sex, sleeping, bathing, teeth brushing, changing clothes, washing clothing, hiding library materials, preparing lunch especially with hot water, etc. Grabbing small children and pulling them into bathrooms for nefarious reasons is a well publicized but seldom occuring event.
Regular patrols of Library security staff, sans dogs, of all public areas is effective. That includes bathrooms. By “public” areas I mean places open to the public, not staff-only areas.
it is the “dog” element of security here that is over the top and just a big NO. Reasonable security measures include watchful library staff.
Perhaps in the years ahead if the homelessness issue isn't seriously addressed, our libraries and parks will stop being used by tax paying citizens and will eventually cease to be funded. Virtual only?
iris lilies
12-9-18, 12:30pm
Perhaps in the years ahead if the homelessness issue isn't seriously addressed, our libraries and parks will stop being used by tax paying citizens and will eventually cease to be funded. Virtual only?
The marble palaces of learning built by the robber barons at the turn of the Century would be a great loss to the public
suburban library spaces in strip malls and their crappy coherts of cheap construction will be no loss.
Chicken lady
12-9-18, 12:54pm
What do you have against dogs? Human officers are ok? Canine officers with specialized skills relevant to one of the issues are not ok?
Here, we already have human police officers in our libraries. So yes, they do “waste” their time patrolling the library. And they wake people up (which I personally feel is unnecessary and also they target - if you are very young or very old and someone is with you, they let you sleep). And they remove disruptive patrons. I do not feel that “librarian” should be a high risk profession.
Indigenous people??? Or did you mean indigent people?
First Nations individuals. That is the politically correct term now.
The police aren’t going to waste their time patrolling library bathrooms. I don’t see that as a viable solution.
They do here.
Teacher Terry
12-9-18, 1:47pm
Well perhaps I am out of touch with the library world:))
Maybe indignant people--that was me when people brought fast food into our library and left the mess for us to clean up, or the patrons--like one young woman--who felt entitled to cut articles out of the newspapers provided for everyone. Or the guy making cold calls (loudly) under a sign that clearly said "No Cell Phones." But I digress.
We did have some creep trying to molest a little girl in the women's bathroom, but I wasn't on duty at the time.
iris lilies
12-9-18, 9:30pm
What do you have against dogs? Human officers are ok? Canine officers with specialized skills relevant to one of the issues are not ok?
Here, we already have human police officers in our libraries. So yes, they do “waste” their time patrolling the library. And they wake people up (which I personally feel is unnecessary and also they target - if you are very young or very old and someone is with you, they let you sleep). And they remove disruptive patrons. I do not feel that “librarian” should be a high risk profession.
In my library, carrying illegal drugs is not a behavior problem that needs to be addressed. So, why hassle library users about that? They are minding their own busness and using library resources appropriately. I dont want our users disrupted for problems they are not creating. These are adults with the agency of adults. They are not children. Maybe drug sniffing dogs are common in schools, I dont know.
And I can barely imagine the hue and cry that would go up about police action like this.
Again, in my library, security is provided by public safety officers employed by the library. Some are off duty cops. None are k9 officers. That is a specialized officer and that would come only and directly from 3rd district police, and they would not do it. Not hapoening.
iris lilies
12-9-18, 9:35pm
Maybe indignant people--that was me when people brought fast food into our library and left the mess for us to clean up, or the patrons--like one young woman--who felt entitled to cut articles out of the newspapers provided for everyone. Or the guy making cold calls (loudly) under a sign that clearly said "No Cell Phones." But I digress.
We did have some creep trying to molest a little girl in the women's bathroom, but I wasn't on duty at the time.
Get with the times, Jane, everyone gets to eat and drink in the library now! well big city libraries. I noticed that in Hermann no one is allowed to bring food and drink, it is still a small quaint place.
Most libraries of size have had a molester pull a small child into the bathroom. Most library directors can tell you what year that happened even if it happened 30 years ago.
Chicken lady
12-9-18, 9:50pm
Iris lilies, I think maybe you have no experience with drug sniffing dogs. They are very polite. Far more polite than most leashed dogs you will pass on the sidewalk. They do not “hassle” or “disrupt” people unless they hit on a scent. I had a chance to participate in a demo with one, and he sniffed my purse from about a foot away and kept walking - even though my purse contained unwrapped dog treats normally used to reward him.
We do not have a school resource officer, but if we did, I would love it if (s)he had a canine partner.
No food or drink in my library, unless the library is selling food and drink as a fundraiser, then it is OK.
iris lilies
12-9-18, 10:00pm
Iris lilies, I think maybe you have no experience with drug sniffing dogs. They are very polite. Far more polite than most leashed dogs you will pass on the sidewalk. They do not “hassle” or “disrupt” people unless they hit on a scent. I had a chance to participate in a demo with one, and he sniffed my purse from about a foot away and kept walking - even though my purse contained unwrapped dog treats normally used to reward him.
We do not have a school resource officer, but if we did, I would love it if (s)he had a canine partner.
OK, I’ll play. Tell me, chicken lady in your mind what is the purpose of identifying illegal drugs held in the pockets of someone who is studying at the library?
Teacher Terry
12-9-18, 10:47pm
I think we should legalize drugs and then use the money for treatment instead of jail.
Chicken lady
12-9-18, 10:52pm
It keeps them from using the drugs in the bathroom - which was a problem the op wanted solved.
also, I am all for treatment instead of incarceration.
iris lilies
12-9-18, 11:22pm
It keeps them from using the drugs in the bathroom - which was a problem the op wanted solved.
also, I am all for treatment instead of incarceration.
continuing to play, I will ask: what is “it” that keeps a library patron from using drugs in the libray’s bathroom? Do you mean cops will arrest the person with drugs? If Not, then what?
Chicken lady
12-10-18, 6:13am
Yes, I imagine if an officer finds you are carrying illegal drugs, you will be arrested and removed from the library. Therefore, you will not be using those drugs in the bathroom. If this happens frequently, it should act as a deterrent to bringing drugs into the library. For those who feel a need to have these drugs and are unable to stash them somewhere else, this will no doubt result in decreased use of the library rather than decreased use of drugs. One can argue as to wether or not that is a desirable outcome. One can also argue as to wether or not increased drug arrests are socially beneficial. Those are seperate issues with different solutions. I am simply proposing a use of resources that is in line with the rules of society we currently have and reduces a problem stated in the original post. Do you have some other, better suggestion for keeping homeless people from using illegal drugs in the library bathroom? Something more realistic than “legalize all drugs and find everyone housing.”?
i didn’t realize that we were “playing.” You seem to have clearly understood my statements, but you don’t argue against them or offer alternatives. You just keep asking me to clarify fairly obvious information. So in anticipation of your next question, yes, when the cops “remove you from the library” your new location will be jail.
My brother once once had a crisis at work, and when he met with his team to tell them what they were going to do, one of the guys raised his hand and said “that’s a bad plan.” And my brother replied. “Yes. It’s a terrible plan. It sucks. But it beats no plan. Does anyone have a good plan? Or even a better plan?” And there was silence. At which point my brother said “right. So we go with the bad plan.”
sweetana3
12-10-18, 7:25am
Our library building hosts weddings and other events during nonpublic times. In fact, it is quite popular in the summer.
It is important to the safety of the cleaning personnel and others, that used needles are not found stashed in trash cans, laying out in the open, or otherwise a danger to others.
Our library has a very clear list of rules and behaviors for anyone using the facilities. Drugs are a small part of the overall issues created by disruptive patrons. http://www.indypl.org/using/behavior/
Chicken lady
12-10-18, 8:23am
Wait, maybe I see the problem.
maybe IL is confused because she thinks I am insisting she needs to have law enforcement in her library where drugs are not causing a problem?
that would be silly. That would be like me suggesting vegetable dishes for her to eat because UL complained about the lack of nutrition in his diet.
I imagine the ACLU would be all over it if the police started trampling people’s 4th amendment rights by bringing in drug dogs to randomly search library patrons.
iris lilies
12-10-18, 9:59am
I imagine the ACLU would be all over it if the police started trampling people’s 4th amendment rights by bringing in drug dogs to randomly search library patrons.
I didnt even bring that up, but yes. Absolutely. That was part of the “hue and cry” I mentioned. The ACLU and the media would be all over this, and rightly so.
A proposal to have regular patrols of drug sniffing dogs in the public library is preposterous. And it is WRONG.
I raised several arguements against this as well as proposing a solution, but to clearly restate those ideas:
* Drug use takes place in and around the library, so the bathrooms are not the only problem area in the thousands if sq feet of central library
* unacceptable behaviors other than drug use take place in the library
* many patrons carry drugs and weapons into the library and do not cause a problem, but both are against the law
solution:
* Having library staff, both service staff and security staff, watchful of trouble spots and potential patrons who may cause trouble, is an effective deterrant.
* known repeaters of problematic behavior of any kind —not just drug use—lose library priveleges
And to other points raised, Library janitorial staff are trained about sharps disposal and handling. I dont know how many needles are found in our bathrooms. It does happen, and my guess is that it has increased since I retired because heroin use has increased. But OTOH the men’s shelter across the street closd, and behavior problems have dropped 50% so that is a huge increase in quality of experience for library patrons.
Chicken lady
12-10-18, 10:13am
*i disagree that it is wrong for public safety officers to enforce laws in public spaces.
*I did not suggest confining them to the bathroom - walking casually throughout the space - as current officers do in several of my public library branches - seems workable.
* my suggestion was not intended to solve every unacceptable library behavior, but I am also ok with confiscating illegal weapons. TSA took my kid’s pocket knife. He was warned. Nobody made him sign up for the trip he was on.
* if library staff were a sufficient deterrent, the problems would not exist. Which is why I suggested social workers and public safety officers to address social issues and public safety concerns. Then library staff can focus on library specific issues.
i notice you did not have a problem with social workers...
also, a human police officer cannot randomly search people, but it is my understanding that, a “hit” from a canine officer constitutes probably cause. Which is why you need to warn patrons that the premises are patrolled.
iris lilies
12-10-18, 10:45am
*i disagree that it is wrong for public safety officers to enforce laws in public spaces.
*I did not suggest confining them to the bathroom - walking casually throughout the space - as current officers do in several of my public library branches - seems workable.
* my suggestion was not intended to solve every unacceptable library behavior, but I am also ok with confiscating illegal weapons. TSA took my kid’s pocket knife. He was warned. Nobody made him sign up for the trip he was on.
* if library staff were a sufficient deterrent, the problems would not exist. Which is why I suggested social workers and public safety officers to address social issues and public safety concerns. Then library staff can focus on library specific issues.
i notice you did not have a problem with social workers...
also, a human police officer cannot randomly search people, but it is my understanding that, a “hit” from a canine officer constitutes probably cause. Which is why you need to warn patrons that the premises are patrolled.
I understand that in your preferred scenario, police patrol the entire library realm with drug sniffing dogs. That is a huge part of my objection—patrons who are causing no problems will be targeted and removed and possibly jailed (but jailing is unlikely in our city.) This is the core of my objection.
Because I have been unable to convince you how WRONG it is to treat well behaved library patrons in this way, I will just have to give up. Please do not become a Library Director who determines policy like this. jp1 and some others here may, however, become library directors. ;)
JaneV2.0
12-10-18, 11:14am
For what it's worth, I often listen to police radio as background noise. Police are often called because people are using drugs in public bathrooms and they either refuse to leave or have passed out, making life difficult for other patrons. These are almost always restaurant bathrooms. Calls from the library are usually due to people standing on the steps outside screaming, or other disturbances.
jp1 and some others here may, however, become library directors. ;)
Does that mean I get to read all the books first!?
Chicken lady
12-10-18, 2:35pm
IL as I understand your objection:
it is ok to break the law if you are not bothering anyone.
it is wrong to enforce laws against people who weren’t bothering anyone as a side effect of enforcing laws on people who were bothering other people.
paralell example:
it is ok to run the red light if no one is coming the other way.
It is wrong to post a police officer at a dangerous interesection because he might ticket someone who ran a red light when no one was coming the other way.
Bottom line, it is wrong to search someone for drugs without probable cause that they have them.
iris lilies
12-10-18, 2:51pm
IL as I understand your objection:
it is ok to break the law if you are not bothering anyone.
it is wrong to enforce laws against people who weren’t bothering anyone as a side effect of enforcing laws on people who were bothering other people.
paralell example:
it is ok to run the red light if no one is coming the other way.
It is wrong to post a police officer at a dangerous interesection because he might ticket someone who ran a red light when no one was coming the other way.
No.
But you and I will not agree because each of us are emphasizing different parts of this issue, so
I see no point in continuing to talk about it. It is a complex issue and reasonsble people may disagree.
Chicken lady
12-10-18, 2:52pm
Yes.
again, dog. If I am wrong about procedure and someone with a more in depth understanding of the use of patrol dogs would like to correct me, I will stand corrected.
And while officers are patrolling the library with their sniffer dogs, they can snag scofflaws for parking violations and other kinds of offenses! And maybe ICE can make sweeps of the stacks to root out refugees!
I'm not interested in living in any more of a police state than we already have, thanks.
iris lilies
12-10-18, 3:37pm
And while officers are patrolling the library with their sniffer dogs, they can snag scofflaws for parking violations and other kinds of offenses! And maybe ICE can make sweeps of the stacks to root out refugees!
I'm not interested in living in any more of a police state than we already have, thanks.
Many people sitting in the public library this afternoon have outstanding warrants. I say that because after having lived in this high crime city for decades, I have learned that is a fact of life here.
For several reasons, some more important than others, I dont advocate trolling the library using population for warrant jumping persons.
Teacher Terry
12-10-18, 3:38pm
We could solve much of the homeless problem if we wanted to. We could start by using some of the money we spend on incarceration and wars. Or perhaps not give big tax breaks to the wealthy.
We could solve much of the homeless problem if we wanted to. We could start by using some of the money we spend on incarceration and wars. Or perhaps not give big tax breaks to the wealthy.
True of so many of the nation's problems, IMO. Whatever happened to fixing our aging infrastructure? Oh, that's right--big tax cuts.
Chicken lady
12-10-18, 4:19pm
We cross posted. The Yes was for jp1.
i recognize that you have stated my understanding of you position is flawed. And that you do not wish to further clarify.
Gardenarian
12-15-18, 5:01am
I wrote a long reply to this then dropped my phone - gone!
I work at a public library in a town with a large number of homeless, transients, and travellers. All staff have had training on this topic.
The bottom line is, treating all patrons the same. Sleeping is not (technically) allowed, but if it's a slow day and no one is being bothered, we let them be - whether they're homeless or simply an exhausted mom. If someone has a smell that offends others, we let them know and ask them to wash up before returning. This goes for the teen smothered in AXE as well as the reeking homeless guy.
Definitely, more of the transient/homeless population have mental and/or drug issues, but so do some our "regular" patrons. We have procedures and have learned the language to deal with situations so they don't get out of hand.
We want all of our patrons to feel the library is a safe, helpful, and enjoyable space - that's the bottom line.
We recently installed security cameras (which I don't like) and there's talk of getting a security guard. I don't think these measures are anywhere near as effective as treating every patron with kindness and respect.
And, hey, get a library card! You don't even need to visit the library to get great online audiobooks, ebooks, movies, and access to high-end databases - free to all.
ToomuchStuff
12-15-18, 11:51pm
. Sleeping is not (technically) allowed, but if it's a slow day and no one is being bothered, we let them be -
Kind of hard to stop sleeping when someone gets a really SLOW book, DAMHIK.:laff:
JaneV2.0
12-16-18, 12:29pm
https://www.newstatesman.com/world/north-america/2018/12/how-seattle-s-public-library-stepping-deal-city-s-homelessness-crisis
I visited this library soon after it was built. From the outside, it's magnificent; from the inside, it looks like a parking garage.
https://www.newstatesman.com/world/north-america/2018/12/how-seattle-s-public-library-stepping-deal-city-s-homelessness-crisis
I visited this library soon after it was built. From the outside, it's magnificent; from the inside, it looks like a parking garage.
Very interesting article, well written to explain the approach taken in dealing with the homeless.
Teacher Terry
12-16-18, 2:29pm
Sounds like a great approach. I didn’t realize that the libraries were playing such a big role. It sounds like having a social worker there is working.
iris lilies
12-16-18, 3:10pm
Sounds like a great approach. I didn’t realize that the libraries were playing such a big role. It sounds like having a social worker there is working.
Some are also feeding stations for meal programs for children during school breaks.
Fortunately I retired before my library got full into that, it managed to stave that off quite a while. I think it is a huge mistake to adopt a role of social services provider of the the neighborhood. Next lets have health clinics there. What about dog and cat adoptions? We could expand my favorite ( not) drag queen story time and just have straight up drag queen shows since the library also has plenty of entertainment shows anyway. let’s just try to be all things to all people what the hell.
Signed Iris, curmudgeon
Teacher Terry
12-16-18, 3:41pm
Years ago we had a summer meal program to feed kids lunch. We used local schools. They were cold bag lunches and the parents couldn’t eat and the food couldn’t leave the premises. Most kids came alone bringing their siblings. You never knew how many would show at each location so lots of phone calls and driving lunches around. You knew that the kids were hungry to make the effort to get there.
iris lilies
12-16-18, 4:16pm
Years ago we had a summer meal program to feed kids lunch. We used local schools. They were cold bag lunches and the parents couldn’t eat and the food couldn’t leave the premises. Most kids came alone bringing their siblings. You never knew how many would show at each location so lots of phone calls and driving lunches around. You knew that the kids were hungry to make the effort to get there.
Why just children? Why not open up all schools and libraries to be feeding ststions for the homless? Or for anyone who is food insecure? Or for...anyone?
Why not utilize the marble halls of self directed learning to overnight shelter for the homeless, I mean, we heat and cool those buildings 24/7 anyway. Why not? Who is to say the homeless man snuggled up in the bookstacks wouldnt appreciate easy access fo the books above his head?
Really, when I think about it, why not just make everything available to everyone any time?
Teacher Terry
12-16-18, 4:27pm
This was in the 80’s and in our midwestern town of 80k never saw any homeless people. Probably because if you had a small income source you could afford to rent a room at the YMCA, etc. A lot of people were mad that we were feeding kids if you can believe it.
That was a great article.
iris lilies
12-16-18, 7:43pm
That was a great article.
It was a silly article.
sweetana3
12-16-18, 8:12pm
I just want to be safe at the library. Period.
As a child, I was approached by a man who exposed himself in the stacks of our local library. Created a deep fear of strangers in stacks at libraries. In addition, husband was recently verbally attacked by a person at our local library to the extent that security offered to walk us home. I am afraid to go in the restrooms at our huge downtown library because they are located in the back of the elevators without anyone around. Darn, because they are nice and new and clean.
iris lilies
12-16-18, 8:52pm
I just want to be safe at the library. Period.
As a child, I was approached by a man who exposed himself in the stacks of our local library. Created a deep fear of strangers in stacks at libraries. In addition, husband was recently verbally attacked by a person at our local library to the extent that security offered to walk us home. I am afraid to go in the restrooms at our huge downtown library because they are located in the back of the elevators without anyone around. Darn, because they are nice and new and clean.
I am really, really sorry about your childhood experiences and your recent experiences. You are not alone. After enough less-than-awesome experiences soon the users of traditional library services dont bother to come to the marble palace downtown because of fear or disgust or irritation with the environment. Those users tend to pay taxes and vote. And they tend to question why the library should have more of their hard earned dollars when their own pefectly reasonable expectations of safety and cleanliness are seemingly ignored.
Chicken lady
12-16-18, 9:23pm
Iris Lilies,
i’m having A really hard time understanding your vision of how the library should be and how that should be achieved. And I want to. Can you clarify some details about who you think should get to use the library and and how, and how we achieve that?
iris lilies
12-16-18, 10:02pm
Iris Lilies,
i’m having A really hard time understanding your vision of how the library should be and how that should be achieved. And I want to. Can you clarify some details about who you think should get to use the library and and how, and how we achieve that?
I agree with any number of vision statements from large urban public libraries. This one is as good as any:“The St. Louis Public Library will provide learning resources and information services that support and improve individual, family and community life.”
no, I wont write out “details” because there are thousand of words I could write and I am not inclined to do that. I have other things to do. If this sounds rude, I dont intend it to be rude but neither am I going to spend my time educating you when you could educate youself.
Teacher Terry
12-16-18, 10:10pm
I remember when homeless people didn’t hang out in libraries because we didn’t have any. That’s because we had mental health facilities.
Chicken lady
12-16-18, 10:39pm
Unless there is someone else on here who knows you intimately, the only source I have for educating myself about your beliefs and values is you. Attempting to do that in relation to libraries with what you have been posting is confusing me, but I apologize for asking for clarification. I will give up the attempt as unwelcome.
iris lilies
12-16-18, 11:11pm
Unless there is someone else on here who knows you intimately, the only source I have for educating myself about your beliefs and values is you. Attempting to do that in relation to libraries with what you have been posting is confusing me, but I apologize for asking for clarification. I will give up the attempt as unwelcome.
Yes, thanks. I know you are sincere and you are not intending a contentuous discusion, but yeah, too much typing on my part doesnt interest me,
dado potato
12-16-18, 11:33pm
Further to my earlier comment regarding Durango, CO, I may have been mistaken about the camping area providing storage for tents as they are taken down every morning. I gather that the current policy in Durango is that tents, sleeping bags, tarps, etc. must be carried away by the occupant.
The linked source "Westword" drew on a publication of the ACLU Colorado, which takes an adversarial stand in advocating for people experiencing homelessness. I don't have a link to anything from the position of the City Manager and City Council. But I believe there will be hearings in Durango, and the Council will consider changes to the bylaws about sleeping in a public place... so any change is months away.
http://www.westword.com/news/aclu-of-colorado-blasts-durango-for-keeping-homeless-from-sleeping-11058661
Within the article is a link to an ACLU-Colorado publication, A Year Without Sleep
And I still think it’s an awesome article. 😄
I have followed this thread and admire the compassion being expressed as well as the concern. As one poster noted, mental health facilities are needed. It is a very complex issue. What is needed? by whom? When? Why now? Who used to do this? Is it new? If yes, why? What contributed to the situation? What aggravates the situation? What is the desired outcome according to the individuals, the facilities and resources impacted by the situation? Individuals include those needing mental health services, providing those services, use of facilities involved by ordinary patrons, also individuals who are refusing mental health assistance but accessing the facilities...
The question then becomes - is that the role of the library? Is that the role of public facilities in general? How can the situation be managed by the community at large benefiting all its members?
I don't have any idea at present. I do know that offering methadone clinics in my small community has resulted in a large number of the impoverished with health issues roaming the streets of our downtown. More of those needing methadone are moving here.
This negatively impacts the general public's comfort in walking downtown and finally shuts down small downtown businesses. This is not sustainable longterm in any community. It is a huge problem.
The library may offer one aspect of the solution based on its original purpose but it is unrealistic to expect it to be the solution however, well intentioned.
How did we get into this situation?
I remember reading how the libraries were a godsend to people during the Depression. It was for the same reasons: a shelter from the weather, restrooms, and no one would bother you if you didn't bother anyone.
I do agree it is unfair to put that burden on an institution that was not supposed to have that as its primary purpose. But if communities continue to ignore the needs of the addicted and mentally ill, it will continue.
Teacher Terry
12-17-18, 11:35am
When the mental health hospitals/institutions were shut down in favor of treating individuals in the community is when this all occurred. Reagan started it and it might have worked if it was well planned and if there had been enough community services. However, neither of those things happened and it’s a total disaster. Add to that skyrocketing rents and the situation is unsustainable. Poor people used to live in crappy weekly motels downtown. Now they are all being torn down and replaced by very expensive condos for Californians. Lots l seniors living only on SS are displaced. Of course downtown looks better but at a big human cost. We need to build more affordable housing. The average family income is 52k and a one bedroom apartment is 1300. 2 bedrooms range between 1700-2000.
Gardenarian
12-17-18, 2:54pm
In my view, libraries should be referral sources - we can refer needy patrons to the appropriate agencies. We provide information; our mission is not to provide counseling, shelter, food, and so on.
Unfortunately, many librarians have nowhere to refer people. That doesn't mean they should take on the responsibility for all society's ills themselves.
I read in the news today that a librarian was shot by a patron after she banned him from the library for being disruptive. sigh.
I too wonder why we have so many troubled people wandering around. The topic of affordable housing keeps coming up but who is going to pay for that if many of these folk are unwilling or unable to work? Too bad we can't divert the money from the border wall to assist all of these down and out Americans instead. The future looks pretty ugly if we don't get a handle on the reasons why and the way out.
Teacher Terry
12-17-18, 3:06pm
It would be great if social services provided a list of resources for the library to hand out to people.
Teacher Terry
12-17-18, 3:09pm
PT, because we used to lock them up in institutions. They were not seen. There is plenty of money. Big tax cuts the wealthy just got is a place to start. Money going to wars and other countries is another.
Eliminating Pentagon waste and diverting the resulting billions toward infrastructure (including low-income housing) would go a long way toward easing the problem. As would reversing Trump's recent tax cut, which we clearly can't afford.
https://www.thenation.com/article/heres-where-your-tax-dollars-for-defense-are-really-going/
iris lilies
12-17-18, 4:18pm
It would be great if social services provided a list of resources for the library to hand out to people.
Why do you think libraries do not have such lists?
Teacher Terry
12-17-18, 4:22pm
I have no clue if they do or not. I haven’t been in one for over 20 years.
Why do you think libraries do not have such lists?
Because handing out social service info should not be part of a librarians job that's why.
iris lilies
12-17-18, 6:19pm
Because handing out social service info should not be part of a librarians job that's why.
Of course it is their job, it is directory type information they are providing.
A library patron comes up to the reference desk and asks: I need to know where are some Italian restaurants downtown here, I am staying at the Adams Mark Hotel downtown.
A library patron comes up to the reference desk and asks: can you help me find a car rental place near here?
A library patron comes up to the reference desk and asks:Can you point me to the nearest overnight shelter here?
A library patron comes up to the reference desk and asks: where is the food stamp application office downtown?
All of these are common questions answered by library staff from directory publications that are commonly held in library collections, and some of these questions are about social services organizations.
Here is what is NOT the librarian’s job: a person is slumped over in his chair, muttering to himself, drooling, unresponsive to the librarian’s question of “ are you OK sir?” The librarian should not be making a social services evaluation or a health evaluation or a mental health evaluation to decide which social service or health service the patron needs. The librarian calls EMT, they are trained to do that. The librarian does not select a specific social service for this patron.
I have a funny/embarrassing/sad story about this very question. I was working the reference desk at a Public library in a town that doesn’t have a Homeless problem. It was a warm bright summer day. A mom came in with her three children who they were clutching sporting equipment like a small football. She asked me for the location of the nearest “shelter. “
I thought she meant a shelter house in a park, one of those places you rent for bbq gatherings. But after a confusing conversation it occurred to me that she meant an overnight shelter for families. I drew a blank because I don’t think that town had one at the time (probably it does it does now. ) She was probably from a more enlightened part of the country that offered shelter services.
When the mental health hospitals/institutions were shut down in favor of treating individuals in the community is when this all occurred. Reagan started it and it might have worked if it was well planned and if there had been enough community services. However, neither of those things happened and it’s a total disaster. Add to that skyrocketing rents and the situation is unsustainable. Poor people used to live in crappy weekly motels downtown. Now they are all being torn down and replaced by very expensive condos for Californians. Lots l seniors living only on SS are displaced. Of course downtown looks better but at a big human cost. We need to build more affordable housing. The average family income is 52k and a one bedroom apartment is 1300. 2 bedrooms range between 1700-2000.
I think it is unfair to blame Reagan. The root cause was new discoveries in psychiatric medications coupled with disability rights advocates bringing court cases to avoid institutionalization. Individuals who are compliant with their medications usually do not need to be locked up in psych wards for life, nor do they want to be.
Teacher Terry
12-17-18, 9:28pm
I am not saying that the institutions were a good thing because some were torture chambers. But when you look at the history the idea was for them to be in the community living in group homes or independently with supports. Unfortunately, it was not well planned and often supports weren’t provided and it fell onto families that were ill equipped to deal with the issue. We utterly failed which is why we have the problems that we do.
Gardenarian
12-18-18, 2:30am
Our country is run by corporations and the .01%. They apparently live in cloisters where crazy poor people and climate change don't exist.
It's a couple of years old, but I think the book "The Nordic Theory of Everything" is essential reading: https://www.amazon.com/Nordic-Theory-Everything-Search-Better/dp/0062316559/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1545114505&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=nordic+theory+of+everything&dpPl=1&dpID=51AR%2BQoI4hL&ref=plSrch
JaneV2.0
12-18-18, 11:19am
Our country is run by corporations and the .01%. They apparently live in cloisters where crazy poor people and climate change don't exist.
It's a couple of years old, but I think the book "The Nordic Theory of Everything" is essential reading: https://www.amazon.com/Nordic-Theory-Everything-Search-Better/dp/0062316559/ref=mp_s_a_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1545114505&sr=8-1&pi=AC_SX236_SY340_FMwebp_QL65&keywords=nordic+theory+of+everything&dpPl=1&dpID=51AR%2BQoI4hL&ref=plSrch
That looks promising; I've put it on my "to read" list.
mschrisgo2
12-18-18, 5:46pm
See separate thread
"What happened to create so many homeless?"
Teacher Terry
12-18-18, 6:23pm
MS, yes what a mess! I had forgotten about all the new drug addicts. Nevada got into trouble for buying homeless people bus tickets to California.
Moderator: Please move this to a new thread with this title. Thank you!
"What happened to create so many homeless?"
We have limited tools at our disposal, we can edit thread titles, edit or delete user posts, merge threads, delete threads and several other thread related tasks. One thing we cannot do is pluck a post from a thread and insert it into a new thread without losing the original poster's identity.
I would suggest you create a new thread and copy/paste your post into it.
HappyHiker
12-19-18, 8:53pm
I think the homeless should be given the same rights and privileges as the "homed."
Drug use in the bathrooms? Nope. Call the cops. Kids and other patrons use those bathrooms.
Disruptive behavior? Nope. They need to use the same level of respect for others as the "homed."
Bathing in bathrooms? Nope. Libraries aren't bath-houses.
Sleeping in chairs? Sure, why not. The homed can do this too. But maybe not for hours at a time. Set reasonable limits.
Matters of personal hygiene are tricky. What to do with stinky, un-bathed or sloppy, in-continent drunks? Use the same litmus test as for the "homed" patrons.
iris lilies
12-19-18, 9:23pm
I think the homeless should be given the same rights and privileges as the "homed."
Drug use in the bathrooms? Nope. Call the cops. Kids and other patrons use those bathrooms.
Disruptive behavior? Nope. They need to use the same level of respect for others as the "homed."
Bathing in bathrooms? Nope. Libraries aren't bath-houses.
Sleeping in chairs? Sure, why not. The homed can do this too. But maybe not for hours at a time. Set reasonable limits.
Matters of personal hygiene are tricky. What to do with stinky, un-bathed or sloppy, in-continent drunks? Use the same litmus test as for the "homed" patrons.
yes, you have the idea, it is all about behaviour while in the library. No one knows or cares who is homeless, only one’s behavior is relevant.
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