Etiquette question??

[catherine]

This is a silly question but one that popped in my head in the middle of the night when there was nothing I could do about it.

I have an old friend--who used to be my boss. He was my first boss when I started in market research 20 years ago. His path and mine diverged ages ago--I left the company 10 years ago, and he left shortly after to start his own business. He hired one of the people that worked on the same team as he and I, and he also has several part-time project managers, etc. I haven't seen either one of them in years.

So he emailed me a few weeks ago and asked if I'd be free for dinner on the 13th because he and P__ were going to be in NJ. They'd love to see me, yadayada. So I said yes.

We had a really fun time last night at a local restaurant, reliving old times, catching up on work and family, etc. The check came, and my friend/old boss took it and paid it.

It was only a few hours ago when I realized that I probably should have at least offered to pay my share. I honestly don't know why I didn't do that--I'm usually pretty good at that type of thing. For some reason, I took it for granted that he was paying. He was always my "senior" (even though he's more of a friend now) and he was out on a business trip, and he invited me.

But given that we've evolved into "friends"--should I have at least offered to pay my share?? I'm wondering what his expectations were.

Not a big deal, but would you have pulled out your wallet--even if just symbolically?

[SteveinMN]

The waitperson should have asked if you all wanted separate checks. Since there was one check, though, I think you're safe in assuming your former boss meant to pick up the entire bill. P____ didn't offer to pay his/her share, right (since that likely would have triggered the same thought in you)? I don't think the expectation existed for separate checks. The significant issue I can think of, though, is if your bill, for some reason, was significantly higher than theirs.

Anyway, I'd email him a nice thank you offering your appreciation for his picking up the check. If you still feel strongly about this, offer to host him (and P___ if you want) next time they're in your town.

[Tybee]

The waitperson should have asked if you all wanted separate checks. Since there was one check, though, I think you're safe in assuming your former boss meant to pick up the entire bill. P____ didn't offer to pay his/her share, right (since that likely would have triggered the same thought in you)? I don't think the expectation existed for separate checks. The significant issue I can think of, though, is if your bill, for some reason, was significantly higher than theirs.

Anyway, I'd email him a nice thank you offering your appreciation for his picking up the check. If you still feel strongly about this, offer to host him (and P___ if you want) next time they're in your town.
+1

[catherine]

Anyway, I'd email him a nice thank you offering your appreciation for his picking up the check. If you still feel strongly about this, offer to host him (and P___ if you want) next time they're in your town.

Yes, great minds.. I have already done that. I sent both of them an email raving about the great time I had and telling them to let me know the next time they're up, when dinner will be on me. (BTW, my meal was actually significantly LESS then theirs)

I also remembered that years ago, when he and I were working on a project in the area, DH and I took him to a play at one of the area's regional theaters. Obviously I wouldn't have expected him to pay for the ticket when we invited him. So I think I'm in the clear, but you know how those darned second thoughts pop up! Thanks for your thoughts.

[Teacher Terry]

Sounds like it’s fine.

[Miss Cellaneous]

Etiquette says that if someone invites you to something--dinner, a movie, a concert, a beer tasting--and there is a cost, the person extending the invite is supposed to pay for all the invitees. Or the person extending the invite needs to make it very, very clear that everyone will be paying for herself.

This rule is broken so often that I believe very few people realize that it is an etiquette rule.

[Tammy]

I’ve read some interesting research on this area of human behavior. We like to feel that we have given more to others than they have given to us - because this keeps them in our debt. It’s not exactly altruistic – it’s more like we have social capital over on them and then we can sleep at night. And expect favors from them next time. It’s money in the bank in a society that doesn’t have money.

[Rogar]

I don't know what the official rules are, but my rule of thumb is to always offer to help with a dining bill unless the inviter says something up front about it being their treat. That said, I would doubt it to be an issue with your friend. Matter of fact he might have gotten some pleasure by treating you. I'm sure your thank you will be sufficient to stay within any thoughts of good manners. Meetings of old friends like that should not be encumbered by small money issues.

[Teacher Terry]

I had no clue that was a etiquette rule. When we go out with friends it’s understood everyone is paying their own unless someone says they are treating.

[iris lilies]

I had no clue that was a etiquette rule. When we go out with friends it’s understood everyone is paying their own unless someone says they are treating.
You probably have familiar customs within your own group that differ. But generally speaking, the person who invites does the paying.

Certainly we had a large group of friends before all of our friends moved away —waaaaanh!—where it was an expectation that we all pay for own own stuff.

Two nights ago we invited (one of our remaining) friends out for dinner, as we did last year at the same time around his birthday, and I clearly said “we will take you to dinner” and he knew what that meant.

If you say something like “let’s all go out to Restaurant A to grab a bite” that would likely be interpretted as each man for himself with the bill.

[catherine]

I had no clue that was a etiquette rule. When we go out with friends it’s understood everyone is paying their own unless someone says they are treating.

This is a little different in that in this case there were two people who work together vs me. P__ definitely would not have paid for herself. So that left me. And in business, people don't typically sit there nickel and diming the check. I think the question for me was, should I have made the gesture and said, can I pay for my own meal, and then I would have rounded up what I figured my part would be and offered it to him.

But I'm now satisfied with my offer of the next dinner.

[Teacher Terry]

When you work for the government you do:)). But then no one had a expense account. We would get reimbursed for meals up to a certain amount which barely paid for one meal.

[shadowmoss]

I have potentially made a worse etiquette error. I have invited a couple of good friends to go out to dinner with me to celebrate my birthday next week. I intended that we each pay for our own meals, as this is a bit more expensive place than I would 'ask' to go if being treated. I am planning on saying I'll pay for my check, and silently wish I had the money to pay for theirs as well. Heck I may just pay for it all and consider it my Christmas splurge. This couple have helped me in many ways over the past few years, and I certainly don't want them to feel like I expect them to pay for my meal that I asked them to and picked the place... Ok, made up my mind that I'm paying for us all. Not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things, except as you say, at 2am when the old tapes play in my head.

[Tybee]

Shadowmoss, that is a great idea, to just pay for everyone. They might not have the money to pay for the more expensive meal, so your solution is very thoughtful. Which is the point of etiquette, really!

[Gardnr]

Dad taught me this: When you ask people out, you intend to and should pay. When other's ask you out, have enough $ in your pocket to pay just in case it appears it is not their intention.

A heartfelt thank you is all you owed IMO and I believe you did that;)

You could ping him in the next week and say "so great catching up. Next time you're in town I would love to treat you to my fave place". Choose a fun dive you love and can afford for the treat.

[goldensmom]

Dad taught me this: When you ask people out, you intend to and should pay. When other's ask you out, have enough $ in your pocket to pay just in case it appears it is not their intention.

A heartfelt thank you is all you owed IMO and I believe you did that;)

You could ping him in the next week and say "so great catching up. Next time you're in town I would love to treat you to my fave place". Choose a fun dive you love and can afford for the treat.


My parents taught me the same. If you invite someone out to whatever the activity, expect to pay for the both of you. Also, if you get something for yourself always ask the person with you if they want anything and then pay for all of it. Example, if you and a friend stop at a convenience store and you get coffee, ask the person with you if they want coffee and the pay for it. Although…...one time I took my little brother to McDonalds and he kept ordering and ordering until I had to remind him that there is a tomorrow but then he was my brother so I could do that.

[catherine]

Although…...one time I took my little brother to McDonalds and he kept ordering and ordering until I had to remind him that there is a tomorrow but then he was my brother so I could do that.

Well, I hate to pick on BIL, but he is notorious for that. If he knows we are paying he orders the most expensive thing on the menu. I think I've told this story before, but one time we took him to an expensive steak house for his birthday (long story--there was a reason for picking that restaurant having to do with a commitment we had to our DD). He ordered the "porterhouse for two"--for himself. $92. And to rub salt in the wound he took home a doggie bag--for his DOG!

And it's not as if we sit there and suffer in silence. DH will joke about him when he's present--telling people, "Don't ask my brother out to eat because he'll look for the most expensive thing and order that." And everyone will laugh, thinking DH is joking, yet BIL doesn't seem to take the hint. Needless to say, we don't invite him to dinner much.

[Teacher Terry]

Catherine, I would never take him out. How totally rude what he did. When someone asks if I want to go to dinner I always expect to pay for myself unless they say my treat. I find it odd that some people feel they must pay if they ask someone out.

[shadowmoss]

My situation is a bit tricky in that we go out several times during the winter (we are snowbirds) and always each pay. Also, the gentleman is a Southern Gentleman, and so I'm thinking they will offer to pay as I mentioned it is my birthday celebration (I want to celebrate with them as they are good friends). I'll play it by ear... I will take any opportunity to pay.

A funny story about some other friends. As snowbirds, eating out with friends is pretty much a common activity when we are all in the same area. One friend always wanted to pick up the tab, and he had more than enough money to do so. When it was just us I just went along with it. When we went with another group, he and the male in that group always had to argue about which of them was going to pay. For my friend's birthday we all went out to eat. I told the waitress early on that I was paying. When the guys started arguing toward the end of the meal they looked up as the waitress was having me sign the check i'd just paid. The look on their faces was great. I enjoy paying when I can.

[iris lilies]

Well, I hate to pick on BIL, but he is notorious for that. If he knows we are paying he orders the most expensive thing on the menu. I think I've told this story before, but one time we took him to an expensive steak house for his birthday (long story--there was a reason for picking that restaurant having to do with a commitment we had to our DD). He ordered the "porterhouse for two"--for himself. $92. And to rub salt in the wound he took home a doggie bag--for his DOG!

And it's not as if we sit there and suffer in silence. DH will joke about him when he's present--telling people, "Don't ask my brother out to eat because he'll look for the most expensive thing and order that." And everyone will laugh, thinking DH is joking, yet BIL doesn't seem to take the hint. Needless to say, we don't invite him to dinner much.

Your BIL has a social disability, thats for sure.

[iris lilies]

My situation is a bit tricky in that we go out several times during the winter (we are snowbirds) and always each pay. Also, the gentleman is a Southern Gentleman, and so I'm thinking they will offer to pay as I mentioned it is my birthday celebration (I want to celebrate with them as they are good friends). I'll play it by ear... I will take any opportunity to pay.

A funny story about some other friends. As snowbirds, eating out with friends is pretty much a common activity when we are all in the same area. One friend always wanted to pick up the tab, and he had more than enough money to do so. When it was just us I just went along with it. When we went with another group, he and the male in that group always had to argue about which of them was going to pay. For my friend's birthday we all went out to eat. I told the waitress early on that I was paying. When the guys started arguing toward the end of the meal they looked up as the waitress was having me sign the check i'd just paid. The look on their faces was great. I enjoy paying when I can.

Frankly, if I were in your group, I I’d like it clear that you are treating me because I like clarity. I’m from the north. We Northerners are plain spoken. I don’t like it to be a surprise as to who is supposed to pay and I am always bored with the arguments about who is paying.


Don’t bore Iris it does not bode well for you. Ha ha!

[Miss Cellaneous]

Catherine, I would never take him out. How totally rude what he did. When someone asks if I want to go to dinner I always expect to pay for myself unless they say my treat. I find it odd that some people feel they must pay if they ask someone out.

The rationale behind the etiquette of "if you invite someone, you pay for that person," is this. If you were to invite someone to dinner at your house, both you and the guest would expect you to provide the dinner. (Potlucks excepted, of course.) When you invite someone to dinner at a restaurant, you are changing the venue of your hospitality, but that is all. Your invitation should still include providing your guest with dinner, in other words paying for their dinner.

This does depend on the way the invitation is issued. Sometimes it is one person facilitating a group of people going out--say a group of co-workers. Then it is expected that everyone will pay for themselves. But one friend inviting another out to eat--unless it is clearly stated that everyone is paying for themselves, etiquette states that the host pays for everyone.

And there are cultural norms that affect this as well, and these can vary greatly, even in the same geographical area.

I'm not defending the etiquette rule here. I'm just explaining it.

[Teacher Terry]

I have lived all over the country and never experienced this expectation at all.

[razz]

It is the wording. "Would you join me for dinner" means that I intend to pay for both. "Do you want to meet for dinner or something?" means we each pay our own bill.

[catherine]

This is an interesting discussion. There's another element as well--both Teacher Terry and IL have brought it up in different ways. The cumbersome nature of the "who gets the check" thing as well as the hassle of getting out the calculator.

Personally, I HATE having to figure out how to split the check. DH and I would go out with friends when the expectation was that we were all paying for our own; and for the sake of convenience, when the check came we'd split the bill in half. But we were in the crapper then, and we would forgo drinks and appetizers, while our friends would not and we would still split the bill.

At the same time getting out the calculator is kind of gauche. So, that leaves the separate checks thing, as Steve mentioned. Servers hate that, but of course, that's their job and not my problem.

AND in my particular case, DH is one of those guys who will fight for the check--and win--almost every time. It has been a bone of contention in our marriage. So we're more like the situation shadowmoss talked about, with the two alpha males duking it out for the right to pay. But we don't go out much anymore, so it's not a big problem these days.

In general, I feel it's a little more genteel, to pay when you invite people out, and then your friends would reciprocate the next time.

When it comes to the actual invitation, though, I also agree with razz that it's all in the wording.

[Teacher Terry]

Our friends prefer separate checks and if not possible we pass the check around and everyone figures out what they owe. We occasionally treat people and our friends do the same but it’s never expected.

[Tybee]

I think part of good etiquette is clarifying this at the beginning of the invitation.
"Let me take you to dinner" means I pay for all.
"Meet me for dinner and we'll all pay our own tab," means that.
Etiquette is merely a way to make people feel more comfortable.

[shadowmoss]

My friends paid for my meal. We had a discussion about it. Sometimes the thing to do is just smile and say thank you.

[iris lilies]

My friends paid for my meal. We had a discussion about it. Sometimes the thing to do is just smile and say thank you.
I knew they were going to pay. It was your birthday!


But that’s OK your friends knew that you did not intend to grift them out of a nice dinner!

[Teacher Terry]

Yes I figured they would pay. We always do if it’s someone’s birthday.