View Full Version : Elderly dog question
My dog is about 15 and 1/2 years. We live by a small town and for years used their vet, which we became very unhappy with. So we switched to one in a larger city about 20 miles away. It's a big office and the vets are extremely good. It's always been a hassle taking our dog there, because she freaks out so badly on the way. Another sort-of problem is that this place goes too far in the other direction than our older vet did. The vet there that we have always seen is almost OCD about things. Our dog is on about 5 meds/supplements. The thyroid and Gall bladder med seems to be the most important. But the vet has her on several very expensive supplements......like glucosamine/chondroitin with MSM, an omega oil, an NSAID, and he put her on a supplement paste to help with her cognition. It was almost $60 and made her worse, so I stopped it.
Our dog has hypothyroidism, GB disorder, arthritis, and now her mind is having problems. She is almost blind and very hard of hearing. Something she's done for a couple years, but it's worse, is her mouth tremors. She gets stuck under tables, in corners, etc. She drinks tons of water and pees a lot (the Vet knows about this). Another weird thing is her fur coat is huge, more than ever before. We had her tested for diabetes and she didn't have it.
The dilemma I'm having is that she's old! And I don't want to pile more meds on her if they are causing some of her problems. The vet says they aren't........but every animal is different. Just like people, dogs can't live forever and we have to decide what's help-able and what's not.
If I take her to the vet for her most recent deterioration, he will suggest another expensive med.
I'm thinking of stopping her expensive NSAID and trying some of the CBD oil for pets. Anyone use that? Do you have a reputable source for it?
Let me also say, that I will never have her euthanized. I don't even want a conversation about that being an option, or it's rightness or wrongness. I don't have a job and want to be here for her constantly, if she gets a lot worse.
Any tips for dogs that are almost blind and hard of hearing? Would a dog whistle get her attention?
And let me know about if you use a CBD oil on your dog.
Thanks for any good input you can give me.
DH always waits 'til the last minute to deal with things. I've been on him to dig a grave for awhile.......then the ground froze. Fortunately, we've had milder weather and he realized it was a good suggestion. So that's ready if we need it in the dead of winter. I will miss her so much. :(
I just wonder if she has Cushings, because of the coat?
catherine
12-20-18, 12:22pm
No advice, but just ((((hugs)))))
mschrisgo2
12-20-18, 12:29pm
Old dog problems are so sad. My first cocker spaniel lived to be 17 years and 8 months old. When both her eyesight and hearing were diminished, she could "feel" sounds on the floor. I made a point of walking heavier, and if I tapped with floor twice she would come to me.
iris lilies
12-20-18, 12:54pm
Glucos/condeoiten is for joint pain. I would keep all meds that keep her out of pain.
I have no opinion about the internal organ meds because I dont know about them or your pet.
It is too bad that you cant have an honest discussion with your vet about your goal of elder dog care which is probably (I am guessing here) similar to hospice care.
My Father in law went into hospice care last week and it is is difficult for some humans to understand and accept the dying process.He and his five children are all ok with it, and are mutually supportive. His girlfriend is acting like an idiot and is disobeying hospice rules by force feeding him, waking him from sleeping for innecessary grooming, etc. She is not respecting the dying process and she has since been banned from his room unless a family member is there to control her actions.
Teacher Terry
12-20-18, 1:23pm
CBD biscuits helped our old dogs for awhile but then quit working. We had a 20yo Maltese with multiple problems including dementia. She was on Xanax so we all could sleep at night. Eventually we had to put her to sleep because by 5pm at night she was frantic and would run into the walls, knock over all the dog bowls, etc. Nothing would calm her down. She was on a variety of medications for various issues. Personally I think it’s kinder to put them to sleep then suffer like we do with people.
Maybe you could go back to the first vet, since it sounds like the farther away vet believes in a lot of medication, and maybe the first one is more appropriate for a hospice type situation?
Thanks everyone. I do clap hard and she seems to hear that. I can whistle high sometimes and she hears that.
Tybee.....I just told DH a little while ago that I wondered about Cushings too. When you say because of the coat, what did you mean? I couldn't find anything online about them having a heavier than usual coat. All I could find was about shedding too much........which she is doing, but dang, her coat is soooooo thick. Maybe when you have a lot of cortisol, it grows the coat too much? A couple months ago, she started breathing fast when she would get excited. Then recently I started thinking it was because her coat was making her so hot.
We were at the Vet's probably 5 months ago at most and he drew lots of labs. He said everything was normal. I hope he wasn't overlooking anything.
I said Cushings because in horses, it manifests with a really thick coat-- if you have seen a horse with Cushings it's real distinctive, along with cresting of the neck. The hair is long and kind of wavy, really thick, and the shedding patterns are wrong.
Thanks Tybee......That's very interesting. Our dog is shedding in weird patterns too. I think I'll make an appointment for next week. Seems like a blood test would be enough to know. I've read it's not an easy problem to fix. Even if we can keep her from drinking and peeing so much, that would help a bit. I swore she was so much heavier, but we weighed her, and she's lost a pound. So her coat is probably making her look so big. I wish we could at least get her a hearing aid........but I'm sure even if they did make those, the dog wouldn't tolerate it.
I'm glad you brought up Cushings, Tybee. Thanks!
Seems like many older cats and dogs have thyroid issues at the end of their lives. I have the same opinion of vets as I do people doctors. I think they over-prescribe meds and procedures but I concur that anything that alleviates pain or anxiety in your dog is a good thing as she/he gets closer to the end of life.
Teacher Terry
12-20-18, 4:17pm
One of my rescue dogs had advanced Cushings. He had very little hair and breathed very hard. The vet said nothing could be done and that he wouldn’t live a year. He only lived 6 months. I don’t know if something could have been done if I had gotten him before he was so far gone. I also had a deaf rescue dog and I would flick the light outside to get her to come in and stamp the floor to get her attention. She would come to me if I motioned to her.
iris lilies
12-20-18, 4:50pm
So I will ask, why does it matter if she doesnt hear? We have had several elderly dogs with hearing loss, and we took in one young rescue dog with complete hearing loss. We have had dogs with sight loss. It is normal,sging.
It just doesnt seem to be a big deal to me. The only guy I felt sorry for was the young one because it was harder for him to adjust to two homes after his family gave him up—us his foster home, and then his forever home. I mean, at least I think it woild be harder than with hearing dogs, but maybe not.
What a struggle. I've always said that our cats will get any care that makes them feel better or is likely to cure/stop progression of a disease, but not something that will merely extend their lives by a few months or whatever. When we reach that point I will put them out of their misery. They've given us so much joy over the years that it seems like that's the very least I can do for them. (easy to say now while they are still relatively healthy, I know...) They are both 14 1/2 (littermates) and thankfully the worst things we're dealing with are thyroid issues in one of them, joint pain in the other, and a lot of missing teeth (they got in a fight the other day and my bruiser Chris managed to knock out Everett's last fang...). Thankfully neither is showing signs of dementia yet. Depending on how it presented that would probably be a euthanasia level problem. In the meantime we keep making sure they eat/drink/pee/poop, and don't seem to be in too much pain. Little things like putting a footstool by the bed so chris doesn't have to struggle to get in bed with us.
So I will ask, why does it matter if she doesnt hear? We have had several elderly dogs with hearing loss, and we took in one young rescue dog with complete hearing loss. We have had dogs with sight loss. It is normal,sging.
It just doesnt seem to be a big deal to me. The only guy I felt sorry for was the young one because it was harder for him to adjust to two homes after his family gave him up—us his foster home, and then his forever home. I mean, at least I think it woild be harder than with hearing dogs, but maybe not.
I tend to agree with this. As long as the humans they live with are being thoughtful about it this shouldn't be a big issue. ie, don't move the furniture around if that means they'll be crashing into it, don't walk up behind them and startle them, etc. If there are young humans in the household (or lots of random adult visitors) this might be a bigger concern. For instance if small grandkids come to visit occasionally, maybe it's best to put the dog in a quiet room for the duration. But I don't think the chaos of being startled is likely an issue in Cathy's house based on what I know about her.
CBD oil was going to be my next step for our Beagle mix with Mast Cell cancer, but we had to put her to sleep rather suddenly on 12/31. She had an extremely aggressive form of cancer and tumors grew so large, so suddenly that her internal organs were being pushed around and there wasn't anything we could do.
I have tried peppermint oil for stomach upset, and that really seemed to help her. I diluted it with rose hip oil and tried to use as little as possible due to the strong smell. Frankincense for pain seemed only so-so for her. It works very well for me, so I was hoping for better with her. We had been giving her the Drs Foster and Smith Joint Care Extra for several months and it made a notable improvement in her stiffness. It is expensive, but I did a lot of research and this seems to have the most of the active ingredients, plus it also has turmeric and frankincense added.
Our dog developed severe anxiety whenever we went to the vet, and it started to act up at night before bed. They prescribed Trazodone, but it didn't help much. A sound machine set on a gentle rain calmed her, but that isn't going to help a deaf dog. I put lavender oil in a humidfier. I also made her a more comfortable bed with soft blankets as the dog bed just wasn't cutting it, and started a routine every night that ended with turning on the sound machine and giving her a massage. Only bad nights, the vet told me to give her 2 Benedryl. My dog was 55 lbs, though. Towards the end, she was getting 2 Benedryl plus 2 Gabapentin because the steroids were making her hyper.
I think vets nowadays tend to assume that people are willing to spend any amount of money to make their pets better, so they will keep suggesting treatment after treatment. I was dumbfounded when I was told she had 3 months to live and right after was suggested to make an appt with an oncologist for radiation, which would give her another 3 months or so. The vet seemed relieved when I said that I thought just keeping her comfortable would be the best way to go. I wish I had more advice to give you, but I do wish you good luck.
Cathy, just a question - you said you would never put your dog down. Do you mean in current condition, or ever, even if she got very sick?
iris lilies
1-1-19, 7:06pm
Silly moo,
.i have had a couple of dogs with mast cell carcinoma. It is prevelent in bull and lab breeds.
Hi again. Silly moo..........dangit, I forgot to ask the vet about CBD oil. I'll have to give her a call. I agree about Vets wanting to do too much. I think I'm being reasonable in what I would and wouldn't do, and I think this vet we saw for the first time recently, is in total agreement. If it's something not traumatic, but might greatly improve their quality of life, then I'm for it. But not a procedure that would be difficult for the dog, and might not yield anything good.
Tradd.......to answer your question honestly....I just don't know. We did have a stray a few years ago that we took in. She spent her entire day going around in circles. We would have to hold her down at night, just so she would finally go to sleep. We did this for 4 months. I'm thinking she had brain damage from something. Anyhow........she got worse and we did take her in to be euthanized, but it made me mad, since once we got to the vet's, I realized that she would have died at home with us, if I'd just waited.
It's always been important to me to be with dying people/animals, to the very end. We usually know if humans are in pain and can say if they want to be euthanized.....but we can't know that in animals. As a critical care nurse, being with people and comforting them in their death process was always important to me. I'm sure that all factors into how I feel about euthanasia. But for now, I can't imagine doing it again to a pet, no matter what. I'm sure most people here will think that's selfish, but I feel like, for me, it's coming from a place that isn't being selfish.
Just an update on my dog........She continued to have some curious changes......incredibly thick coat with strange shedding patterns, drinking a lot of water, peeing a lot. I'm not considering her being half blind and almost deaf as a problem......it's just old age. But a few days ago, she peed in the bed at night, then was found on the floor, on her back, struggling to get up, but unable. Once DH helped her up, she kept falling over. She vomited food she'd eaten 8 hours prior. We laid on the floor with her all night, thinking it was the end. She was very cool and motionless (although had a good heartbeat). In the morning, she began to improve. We already had a vet appointment in a day, so we took her in.......but she had improved. I told the vet she had problems before this recent incident, and I didn't want to only focus on the recent event. The vet said that she's seen this a number of times....where dogs and cats have an event like this, and it's possibly a small stroke or a vertigo that older dogs can have........and it all resolves in a day or 2.......which it did! She drew many labs, which were all normal. But she said that an ultrasound would be good, since it could show if her adrenals were enlarged (despite normal labs), and if anything was pushing on her bladder, to make her need to pee so much. So we need to schedule that yet. The dog doesn't need to be sedated for this procedure, so it seems pretty benign.
So that's where we are. She's doing okay for now. the night we thought she was dying was pretty traumatic for us........and we'll have to go through that again some day. I dread that heartbreaking time.......but such is life.
Teacher Terry
1-2-19, 12:26pm
Cathy, we always stay with our dogs when we put them to sleep. The last time a vet came to the house which was good. Much less traumatic.
TT....I'm not talking about just staying with them when they are euthanized......I mean staying with them until their body's choose to leave.
Teacher Terry
1-2-19, 6:21pm
Cathy, I know your heart is in the right place but I find it cruel. We are kinder to animals than people.
Cathy, I know your heart is in the right place but I find it cruel. We are kinder to animals than people.
Well, we’ll just have to have a philosophical difference about this.
Teacher Terry
1-2-19, 11:11pm
I am okay with that. You are a good person.
Cathy, my previous dog was like the stray you took in to have euthanized. She had brain lesions that, towards the end, caused her to just circle and circle. Otherwise, she was healthy and would have lived quite a while. But she definitely was suffering and even an animal communicator I used said she was more than ready to leave her body but needed help. Some just can't die on their own and welcome being set free.
Animals are less attached to their bodies; when it's no longer useful to them, it's time to go. I think the dying process is more important to humans than animals. Euthanizing makes it much easier for them to go.
Glad your pup is doing better.
Thanks pony mom. I often think of that stray we took in, and wonder who she was before something happened to her. I'll bet she was a lovely dog. I hope no one dropped her off in the country here, because they didn't want to deal with her anymore.
Interesting.....the only 2 times I saw her show any joy was when it snowed and she ran through it, and inside when DD was playing her french horn. She was a lot of work, but I loved her. Don't know what her "real" name was, but we named her Molly. Someone on here posted this poem for me. It's a lovely poem and speaks to many of us who have taken in strays. Thanks again pony mom.
A Light Lost
You were frightened, but you wanted to love.
You distrusted, but there were moments when - almost - you would rest your head.
You were always on guard, but you dreamed of learning to play.
You knew no one would protect you, but there were thoughts, or memories, of having a friend.
And we wanted to rescue you, to let you know you were safe.
If we had stroked your lovely coat just one more time.....
If we had run with you just a little faster, or more often, in the grass..... Then maybe you would have been able to believe.
We will never know if we failed you, or if life had failed you too harshly before we met.
We will not know if you heard us and couldn't answer, or if you had lost the power to hear before we spoke.
We cannot know if you will forgive and wait for us at the Bridge, But we know that we will look for you.
You, also, are one of ours -- and we loved you as best we could.
by Elizabeth Sommers
Teacher Terry
1-7-19, 10:57am
That’s beautiful. Thankfully the rescue dogs we had have learned to accept love over time.
Well, our dog had her ultrasound and I was pretty close with the possible diagnosis. I was thinking Cushings, but it's actually a tumor on top of the adrenal gland. She's making too much cortisol. The tumor is impinging on the vena cava, which could lead to some strokes, or a bleed out. But for now, we're putting her on a medication that will help her not need to drink and pee so much, and give her a little more energy.
Have any of you had your dog on Trilostane? I have no idea how long she's had this tumor. She may have several more years, the vet said....But she's 15 and1/2 now, so we'll see.
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