Eminent domain/ national emergency

[flowerseverywhere]

Yesterday Trump talked about two issues regarding the border wall.

One was declaring a national emergency to get funds for the border wall. The second was eminent domain. I have been reading a lot of information about these two issues. Eminent domain has quite a history in this country, particularly in Texas.

Often eminent domain gets tangled up in the courts and sometimes Native American tribal land is involved.

Is this a national emergency? Anyone have any experience with eminent domain? It does not look so simple from what I can see.

[jp1]

The only national emergency is that we have a delusional sociopathic dude in the White House.

I get it. He doesn't believe in the rule of law, but I predict that if he attempts to go down the fake 'national emergency' road he'll get his butt whooped in court just like his Muslim ban.

[iris lilies]

The only national emergency is that we have a delusional sociopathic dude in the White House.

I get it. He doesn't believe in the rule of law, but I predict that if he attempts to go down the fake 'national emergency' road he'll get his butt whooped in court just like his Muslim ban.

I will admit, the first sentence made me laugh out loud.

But the “Muslim ban” was upheld by the Supremes Because it wasn’t really a Muslim ban you know.


https://www.cnbc.com/2018/06/26/supreme-court-rules-in-trump-muslim-travel-ban-case.html

[jp1]

Yeah but it took 3 tries to get there. He won’t get 3 tries with a national emergency claim. And he doesnt have anyone nearly good enough at legal contortions to get it right on the first try. Antonin Scalia is unavailable to assist with legal contortions at this time.

[iris lilies]

Yeah but it took 3 tries to get there. He won’t get 3 tries with a national emergency claim. And he doesnt have anyone nearly good enough at legal contortions to get it right on the first try. Antonin Scalia is unavailable to assist with legal contortions at this time.

While I am no legal scholar, I too think it is ridiculous to claim we are now in a state of national emergency that meets court standards.

[JaneV2.0]

The only emergency that exists at our southern border is the cruel mess this administration has made in processing refugees. We have no terrorists streaming over the border, smuggling happens at checkpoints* (generally by citizens or other authorized personnel) and most sex traffickers operate within the US. Even the MS 13 threat is overblown. I remember a sharp eyed border patrol agent stopping a potential terrorist many years ago, at Blaine. Does anyone remember such a thing happening at our southern border? As mentioned in another thread, most terrorists these days are home-grown white men.

*per Barry McCaffrey, who served on President Bill Clinton's Director of the Office of National Drug Control Policy

[jp1]

And I do find it somewhat amusing (at least as amusing as any situation involving the pathetic republicans hellbent on destroying my country can be) that this whole fake panic over the border induced shutdown has resulted in e verify being suspended. If people were actually freaked out about undocumented people getting jobs that would seem like something they should be concerned about.

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/03/681969112/an-irony-shutdown-fight-over-border-security-takes-toll-on-immigration-enforceme

[bae]

This has all happened before....

http://avalon.law.yale.edu/18th_century/gwproc03.asp

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Order_to_Suspend_Habeas_Corpus,_April_27,_1861

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Senate_Report_93-549


http://www.documentarchiv.de/ns/rtbrand.html

[rosarugosa]

And I do find it somewhat amusing (at least as amusing as any situation involving the pathetic republicans hellbent on destroying my country can be) that this whole fake panic over the border induced shutdown has resulted in e verify being suspended. If people were actually freaked out about undocumented people getting jobs that would seem like something they should be concerned about.

https://www.npr.org/2019/01/03/681969112/an-irony-shutdown-fight-over-border-security-takes-toll-on-immigration-enforceme

That is truly bizarre. I wasn't aware of the E-Verify thing, but my team handled E-Verify verifications in my corporate life. I totally agree with you, JP1.

[jp1]

During normal government shitdowns the agencies usually have time to make contingency plans. But we’ve never had a president before who made a snap decosion to renege on something he’d already agreed to signamd thus singlehandly prompt a sudden shitdown.

[JaneV2.0]

"f people were actually freaked out about undocumented people getting jobs that would seem like something they should be concerned about."

If people were bothered by undocumented workers, they wouldn't hire them, or they'd see to it green cards were issued. Clearly, it's only one of the canons of the hypocritical swamp the GOP has sadly become.

[flowerseverywhere]

"f people were actually freaked out about undocumented people getting jobs that would seem like something they should be concerned about."

If people were bothered by undocumented workers, they wouldn't hire them, or they'd see to it green cards were issued. Clearly, it's only one of the canons of the hypocritical swamp the GOP has sadly become.

and that is the crux of the problem. When ice raids meat packing plants in the Midwest for instance, what fines do the companies get? If they were big enough, say $5,000 per person for the first offense instead of as little as $250. Also, harboring an illegal leads to big fines and possibly prison time. If fines were strictly enforced and increased, it would make a difference. But then who would do the horrible work? Do consumers want to pay higher prices? Are companies who make big campaign donations willing to get smaller profits and therefore give their executives smaller bonuses?

The walmartization of our country, lots of stuff, cheap workers be damned attitude has put us in a pickle.

[Rogar]

I agree that it seems like things are soft for people or companies hiring illegal immigrants, but it's also my understanding that it is common for these people to have fake documents to make things appear the up and up. In those cases it's hard to hold the employers responsible.

I think I might have something of a biased view, but it seems like a sad state when our society or economy depends on either illegal or no-citizen workers on visas or other work permits to do the nasty work on hot roofs, doing cement and landscape work, or caring for the elderly in nursing homes that our citizens either won't do or are not compensated enough to do.

[JaneV2.0]

Our population is aging and shrinking. It's obvious to me that undocumented workers are a necessary part of our economy, so why are we treating them like despised criminals? Why don't we have a process in place for guest-workers?

[jp1]

The reality is that without undocumented farm workers we would not have many farms. If farmers had to pay wages that would be high enough to entice Americans to take seasonal jobs picking fruit and such, the cost of American food would become expensive to the point that it would be cheaper to import our food from other countries with lower wages.

The question is whether we would rather import much more food, come up with a rational guest worker program, or continue to demonized the scary brown people while looking the other way regarding their employment here when it suits our needs. Since the third choice also provides one of our political parties an ever paying campaign issue I expect that's what we'll have until we elect more adults to our government.

[Teacher Terry]

I have posted this before and now can’t remember the exact amount but a farmer was willing to pay $22/hour for workers and couldn’t get enough. Americans won’t work that hard.

[mschrisgo2]

There are many large vineyards around where I live. They now have machines to do the harvesting. Not only does it not require "farm workers" but it is much faster, with much less contamination.

[oh, and that old story about daylight saving time being for the farmers- total nonsense! They pick at night, after the fruit has gotten nice and sweet in the sun all day. They also plow during the night.]

[Teacher Terry]

When we lived in upstate NY with lots of small farmers the school spring break revolved around their needs because otherwise they would just keep their kids home from school to do the work.

[iris lilies]

When we lived in upstate NY with lots of small farmers the school spring break revolved around their needs because otherwise they would just keep their kids home from school to do the work.
There is California Farmers. Then there are real Farmers.

[ApatheticNoMore]

I think most farming is large agribusiness now. Although I found driving through wisconsin farrms most surprising, I was used to finding fresh fruits and vegetables on road side stands, not a fruit and vegetable to be had (it's all grains, mile upon mile).

There are some family farms I guess, but that ship has mostly sailed, ages ago, people tried to prevent it but .. to a far greater degree than manufacturing did I think, as there actually is still some manufacturing in the U.S..

[jp1]

Fifty years ago the government long ago tried (and failed) to create a program that would replace migrant farm workers with high school age Americans.

"Dealing with crops which grow close to the ground requires a good deal stronger motive" than money or the prospects of a good workout, argued a Detroit Free Press editorial (at the time). "Like, for instance, gnawing hunger."

https://www.npr.org/sections/thesalt/2018/07/31/634442195/when-the-u-s-government-tried-to-replace-migrant-farmworkers-with-high-schoolers

[oldhat]

Fifty years ago the government long ago tried (and failed) to create a program that would replace migrant farm workers with high school age Americans.

"Dealing with crops which grow close to the ground requires a good deal stronger motive" than money or the prospects of a good workout, argued a Detroit Free Press editorial (at the time). "Like, for instance, gnawing hunger."

Yes, there's no motivator like desperation.

A few years back I was in Salt Lake City and took the tour of Brigham Young's house (he was actually a distant relative of mine). The tour guide was a chipper, very blonde BYU student. At one point she was talking about how the original Mormon settlers crossed the desert to get to the promised land. "Some of them were even pushing everything they owned in wheelbarrows!" she marveled. "I could never do that!"

There was a guy in the group in his 70s, with the leathery skin and slit eyes of someone who has spent most of his life working in the sun. He looked squarely at her and drawled, "Miss, you'd be surprised what you can do, when you got no choice."

[LDAHL]

I suppose that’s one argument in favor of more permeable borders. We need more peasants to keep the price of avocado toast at a reasonable level.