View Full Version : The government shutdown.....
gimmethesimplelife
1-9-19, 5:24pm
Is it impacting you, and if so, in what way? I'm hearing of future conventions (government related) getting cancelled and from more than one neighbor in the 85006 who works at the airport - apparently air traffic controllers won't be being paid soon. Top that off with the fact that 1/5th of them are currently retirement eligible and I see the potential for aviation disaster(s). I'm sure more impacts will be coming as this continues but these are two I have to offer up. Anyone else? Rob
We have allowed extra time at the airport. But so far that is all the impact. Was a Federal employee for 31 years and so many live paycheck to paycheck. They are like everyone else. I personally think that there should be no exempted employees. No refunds, no phone lines, no Secret Service!, nothing. The doors are closed and no one is home. Then let the politicians listen to the screams of the people who elected them.
I help run a small airport. In the past, these government shutdowns have cost us dearly, as key people at the FAA needed to sign off on projects were not available, and so projects slipped into the next budget cycle, got delayed, and the costs escalated.
Our runway repaving project has tripled in cost due to shutdowns in the past.
This shutdown is no different - stuff isn't getting signed, so work won't be getting done this year.
It's made me realize how powerful TSA workers are - if they all just decided not to come to work it would throw the country into chaos and this shutdown would end immediately.
gimmethesimplelife
1-10-19, 10:05am
It's made me realize how powerful TSA workers are - if they all just decided not to come to work it would throw the country into chaos and this shutdown would end immediately.I could (possibly depending on how long this shutdown in fact drags on and how acrimonious things get, meaning I believe the rhetoric is only starting to amp up) realistically see this happening. Intriguing times for someone such as myself who essentially never really fit into this country or it's beliefs. Interesting to myself also that I am taking no joy whatsoever in this and wish for a prompt end to the shutdown and a non-violent end to the Trump Presidency and a start to the years it will take to fix the damage The Thug Of Orange has caused.
At any rate, from what I have heard from neighbors who work at Sky Harbour (The Phoenix Airport) TSA agents are starting to quit - not in huge numbers (yet) but it's taking longer to get through security lines and the morale is utterly non-existent. Way to go Mr. Trump - obviously aviation safety and the lives of the flying public mean a great deal to you (sarcasm fully intended and nowhere near appropriately strong enough). I have some choice words for the man in Viennese dialect this morning but I will spare you'all that.
Right now holding US citizenship is all about minimizing damage/damage control. I see no quick end to this - neither side seems willing to budge a fraction of a centimeter. I spoke to my 76 year old Mother yesterday - someone who lives in guilt of the Holocaust and the millions murdered given her prior Austrian citizenship and her upbringing in Austria and what does she have to say about Trump? She hopes he gets "taken out" - this coming from a woman who tries to sweep up household insects with paper to release them outside and not kill them. This right here says so much to me - even someone that gentle and kind has had her fill. For you Conservatives, one elderly woman thinking this way is nothing, I give you that. The problem is that more and more people with each passing day are thinking in these terms. I personally actually do not wish for him to be taken out but rather non-violent impeachment. I've tried to tell others around me - repulsive as the man is, he is still a human being and evil though he may be, he is not in the league of Adolf Hilter. Given that I am so anti police brutality and how US police to this day can murder at will with often no consequence whatsoever, it would be the height of hypocricy (sp?) for me to support anything other than non-violent removal from his current office. There are people in my neighborhood who think I'm being too kind and too soft and that my thinking leads to yet more victimization of innocent people.
But I still hold to this day the best option is non-violent removal from office, even if this stance does not win me friends. What can I say - I'm a humanitarian, even where someone like Donald J Trump is concerned. Rob
It's made me realize how powerful TSA workers are - if they all just decided not to come to work it would throw the country into chaos and this shutdown would end immediately.
I wonder if that’s what PATCO thought.
Williamsmith
1-10-19, 10:44am
It is not a good thing for the general day to day operation of a country but no country should be at the complete mercy of government workers. Nor should it be at the mercy of one chief executive. Congress should shoulder the blame for a lot of this. They sit on their hands and do nothing. This is what government looks like when it is run like a business. This is “The Art Of the Deal” 101. We have gotten here because of what was done or not done long before Trump ever became a symbol of disgust for political status quo and establishment types. Now, we will see how we can handle turmoil. Both sides need to be put in time out until they can play nice in the sandbox.
This is “The Art Of the Deal” 101.
If this is how he runs his business it's no wonder that he went bankrupt 6 times and that the only people will do business with him anymore are Russians who figured out they could get something from him that he didn't realize he was giving them. Just a year ago he could've had $25B for a wall and all he had to give up was DACA. Now he's in a really weak position and has little hope of getting even $5B for a wall.
ApatheticNoMore
1-10-19, 11:42am
I wanted to talk to the IRS to clarify something about a tax return (taxes haven't magically gone away just because the government is shutdown afterall). The IRS is closed! @#$#
Teacher Terry
1-10-19, 11:45am
I really feel sorry for the lower paid workers that live in expensive areas. These are the people least able to afford this crap. At this point I don’t care what happens to trump. He let people die in Puerto Rico by not giving enough aid. He just doesn’t care. The republicans need to grow a backbone and vote to open the government. Luckily we are not flying until the end of February.
gimmethesimplelife
1-10-19, 11:51am
If this is how he runs his business it's no wonder that he went bankrupt 6 times and that the only people will do business with him anymore are Russians who figured out they could get something from him that he didn't realize he was giving them. Just a year ago he could've had $25B for a wall and all he had to give up was DACA. Now he's in a really weak position and has little hope of getting even $5B for a wall.Thank You, jp1. All this has really been getting to me lately and you just gave me some hope with your post here. What I mean is that you are right - Trump is now in a weak position. At least I can reap solace from this. Rob
gimmethesimplelife
1-10-19, 11:53am
I really feel sorry for the lower paid workers that live in expensive areas. These are the people least able to afford this crap. At this point I don’t care what happens to trump. He let people die in Puerto Rico by not giving enough aid. He just doesn’t care. The republicans need to grow a backbone and vote to open the government. Luckily we are not flying until the end of February.I am unable to forgive Trump for how he shortchanged Puerto Rico. I can only hope that whenever he passes into whatever is next he is held accountable for causing these deaths in Puerto Rico. At least I can take solace in that Europeans are fully aware as to how Trump treated Puerto Rico - the rest of the world is learning what America truly is all about under Trump. Rob
It is not a good thing for the general day to day operation of a country but no country should be at the complete mercy of government workers. Nor should it be at the mercy of one chief executive. Congress should shoulder the blame for a lot of this. They sit on their hands and do nothing. This is what government looks like when it is run like a business. This is “The Art Of the Deal” 101. We have gotten here because of what was done or not done long before Trump ever became a symbol of disgust for political status quo and establishment types. Now, we will see how we can handle turmoil. Both sides need to be put in time out until they can play nice in the sandbox.
I think you are right on both counts.
We wouldn’t want to grant too much power, political or otherwise, to public employees. Many countries privatize airport screening or make it a local responsibility. Canada essentially privatized air traffic control twenty years ago. Maybe incidents like this are a good time to reconsider the role of the central government, if only for resilience reasons.
I also think you’re right about Congress ceding too much power to an increasingly imperial presidency and administrative state. That’s been going on at least since Wilson.
Would it not take years to complete this Great Wall of Trump and if so, what would he do in the meantime with all those waiting at the border if they can't deal with them now? None of it makes any sense to me. Another thing that strikes me when the media does stories about federal employees not receiving pay is how close to the edge many are living. Just missing one paycheck seems to throw them into all sorts of financial difficulty or perhaps that's just "fake news".
... TSA agents are starting to quit - not in huge numbers (yet) but it's taking longer to get through security lines and the morale is utterly non-existent. Way to go Mr. Trump - obviously aviation safety and the lives of the flying public mean a great deal to you ...
I am unconvinced that TSA has anything much to do with aviation safety or the lives of the flying public....
Just a year ago he could've had $25B for a wall and all he had to give up was DACA.
It's worse than that - in the time it took to walk the non-partisan bill the few hundred yards to the White House, Trump changed his mind and sunk the whole "deal".
I worked in a startup once that had a CEO like this. Briefly. We fired him.
And.....
There's a Federal grant program that helps fund fire departments, providing for gear purchases, training, and some amount of stipends for smaller departments.
My department relies upon it as part of our budgeting process.
The people responsible for processing the grant stuff are out-of-the-office due to the shutdown. So no grants, and our yearly budget now has to remove or delay some essential items. My SCBA, the breathing gear I use for structural firefighting and HAZMAT situations, is out-of-date and not compliant with current legal requirements, and was due to be replaced from this grant cycle.
So....
I think I have a s'mores recipe somewhere.
Williamsmith
1-10-19, 3:34pm
Well, if Trump wants to take $40 billion from the military budget and build a fixed fortification on the southern border, I won’t b*tch. As long as somebody in the future doesn’t decide to use it to keep us in...rather than keep them out.
Well, if Trump wants to take $40 billion from the military budget and build a fixed fortification on the southern border, I won’t b*tch. As long as somebody in the future doesn’t decide to use it to keep us in...rather than keep them out.
I'm thinking 5 minutes with the gear on my heavy rescue rig and you could drive a semi through the wall.
Anyone who thinks a wall is the answer for border security has never seen the Shawshank Redemption. I suspect the mexicans have more effective tools than a prisoner would so it won’t likely take them 19 years to figure out how to breach it.
Anyone who thinks a wall is the answer for border security has never seen the Shawshank Redemption. I suspect the mexicans have more effective tools than a prisoner would so it won’t likely take them 19 years to figure out how to breach it.
When I lived in San Diego decades ago, they simply dug these badass Hogan's Heroes-inspired tunnels with railways in 'em.
If this is how he runs his business it's no wonder that he went bankrupt 6 times and that the only people will do business with him anymore are Russians who figured out they could get something from him that he didn't realize he was giving them. Just a year ago he could've had $25B for a wall and all he had to give up was DACA. Now he's in a really weak position and has little hope of getting even $5B for a wall.
Bears repeating. I'm glad he didn't get his expensive eyesore boondoggle wall, but that's a very good point.
Teacher Terry
1-10-19, 5:33pm
A friend of mine that is homeless from the paradise fire just had fema aid cut off because of the shutdown. As if those people haven’t suffered enough.
A friend of mine that is homeless from the paradise fire just had fema aid cut off because of the shutdown. As if those people haven’t suffered enough.
It's clearly California's fault; they didn't rake their forests enough.
If forest management were the problem (which California says it wasn't), it's mostly federal forest management they should be looking at.
gimmethesimplelife
1-10-19, 11:20pm
A friend of mine that is homeless from the paradise fire just had fema aid cut off because of the shutdown. As if those people haven’t suffered enough.I wish I could snap my fingers and restore aid to your friend. I know it doesn't help matters, but for what it's worth, I'm sorry. There is no excuse for this in my book. None whatsoever. Rob
ApatheticNoMore
1-10-19, 11:45pm
Another thing that strikes me when the media does stories about federal employees not receiving pay is how close to the edge many are living. Just missing one paycheck seems to throw them into all sorts of financial difficulty or perhaps that's just "fake news".
yea, they must be shockingly unprepared for losing a job (but if they are Fed gov employees I guess that doesn't enter their sphere of possibility, when for the rest of us it is constant lived reality as a possibility and sometimes a certainly). I lost my first professional job in layoffs 2 1/2 years in in a recession and I got my lesson, yea be prepared. Now there may be limits to how much one can be prepared, if wages are low, costs high, and if it wasn't for bad luck one would have no luck at all, but not even one paycheck? True some of the people losing income now are contractors and they never will see that lost income because they won't get paid for it later (if they aren't working, if people are working they will get paid for it someday period).
Teacher Terry
1-11-19, 12:41am
ANM, my husband lost his job st 53 and has had 2 short contracts in 7 years. He is a engineer.
Williamsmith
1-11-19, 3:22am
I’m sure there is a good bit of uncomfortableness but if a government employee is already in crisis mode, they were living very close to the edge. As a federal government employee, they must have been keenly aware that politics can create havoc with their monthly budget. It sounds like many of them were quite unprepared for a career that relies on taxpayers uninterrupted money.
There seems to be a good bit of gleeful reporting about how dire the situation is for federal workers. I worked without pay several times and each time my mortgage lender simply suspended my mortgage agreement. Interest accrued but there was never any mention of a pending foreclosure. Any day to day purchases could have been made on a credit account supplied by a bank that issued new credit cards to all state employees. It was never ideal but not a crisis.
The majority of Americans would be in the same situation - hurting after missing one paycheck.
While I understand the ideas behind being prepared, it bothers me when people make fun of those who are not prepared. It takes a certain income level to be prepared, and most working class people are not st hat level.
I’ve been working class poor. It’s hard. We carried some debt for 20 years, doing our best. Then I got a job that put me squarely in middle class and suddenly it seemed so easy to implement good financial planning and be ready for an emergency.
It had little to do with my financial choices and a lot to do with my income level.
It’s not their fault. I have a lot of compassion for the govt workers right now. We need to stop judging them.
I agree Tammy. It's easy to say "they should have prepared." We do not know why they weren't able to prepare.
Teacher Terry
1-11-19, 11:40am
I totally agree Tammy.
The other thing to keep in mind is that after today this will be the longest shutdown that's ever happened. woohoo! Go Trump! In past shutdowns the president worked to get things open again as soon as possible. Since our current president is completely incapable of empathy, concern for the plight of Schrödinger's government workers is completely not entiring his thought process. (he's called them both "mostly democrats" and "big supporters of the wall" depending on which depiction suits him at a given moment)
I wonder if that’s what PATCO thought.
Ironically, with the sophisticated technology of modern aircraft, the air traffic controller function has become less critical.
But if anyone wants to forego TSA and book a flight on "Fly At Your Own Risk" airlines they can try it. It could be just like the good old days, walk right onto the tarmac and bring your cigarettes, booze and weapons with you. (was a skit about that from a comedian whose name I don't recall).
I agree that TSA is not the high level security we'd like to believe it to be. (although I did witness a bomb-sniffing dog in action this week for all flyers in a terminal when I went to pick up a relative at Sky Harbor in Phoenix - hadn't seen that before, wondered if it had something to do with the short-staffing due to TSA workers calling in sick.)
And that other post 9/11 changes, including fortification of the pilot's door, have a greater impact.
Back to the topic.
ApatheticNoMore
1-11-19, 12:16pm
they have a job to go back to eventually. Like I said I know people in full crisis mode now about contracts potentially ending and no they have no job to go back to. They have contemplated driving for Uber. I wonder how many government workers have contemplated driving for Uber? So the government workers don't have money for one paycheck even though they can eventually (though there sometimes is a delay) collect unemployment. Meanwhile reality on the ground is the EDD here says it is taking people here an average of 6-12 months to get a job. Now newsflash: unemployment insurance itself only lasts 6 months (and add up how many missed paychecks 6-12 months of unemployment is, it's not one) And they get to hear about what a good economy it is to boot. How do the rest of us not just die I wonder since those government workers are all going to perish from 1 missed paycheck. All keep on the good fight I don't know how.
Teacher Terry
1-11-19, 12:18pm
Some states give extensions on unemployment. My husband was on it for a year when he lost his job.
I agree that TSA is not the high level security we'd like to believe it to be. (although I did witness a bomb-sniffing dog in action this week for all flyers in a terminal when I went to pick up a relative at Sky Harbor in Phoenix - hadn't seen that before, wondered if it had something to do with the short-staffing due to TSA workers calling in sick.)
I don't think that was because of the shutdown. They've been using them regularly at SFO for a couple of years now.
Williamsmith
1-11-19, 2:05pm
Well, the real “non-essential” employees are members of Congress. Perhaps if they didn’t get their paycheck today, they might do what they were elected to do.....govern. Those that are not getting paid today have been guaranteed all back pay. Why would I have any confidence in a government that is this dysfunctional? This is why we do have a real lack of rule of law regarding the border and the immigration process. Those that support the President, the Rust Belt in particular do not remember anyone championing their cause when they were losing jobs at an alarming rate and stuck living in communities that were mired in a crumbling infrastructure and plagued with violent crime. The Wall, is a symbol for them of a promise made. A National Emergency declaration is on the horizon.
I heard on the news that TSA workers can earn as little as $20,000.00 a year. It's hard to build an emergency fund with that.
Various sites give various numbers and ranges so it's hard to know what the actual wage for a TSA worker is. This article cites a BLS statistic, which seems like it would probably be the most accurate, of just over $40k per year on average. No mention of differential depending on experience, cost of living in one's region, whether this includes overtime, etc.
In any case, $40k isn't going to leave much room for savings of any significant amount. Especially if one has dependents to take care of.
https://work.chron.com/tsa-officers-make-16008.html
My situation is similar to what Tammy described above about herself. Ten years ago I was earning a little bit more than the $40k that a TSA agent supposedly makes. I was conscientiously putting a modest amount of money into my 401k and managed to have a couple of months emergency fund, but that was it. I could have withstood a brief emergency but not much longer without help. With the luck of being in the right place at the right time and happening to have, without planning, the right background experience, I stumbled into one of the few rapidly growing areas in insurance ten years ago and now make quite a bit more than that. Saving is remarkably easy now. Not because I somehow "saw the light" or whatever, but because it's easy to save when you can easily live on just 40% of your gross income. And the compounding effect of more and more savings just makes things snowball.
And to address contractors with no guarantee of a job next month - yes that’s hard too. I don’t deny it. But I also don’t see how their suffering means it’s ok for the govt employees to also suffer. Both situations are not good. And both deserve compassion.
Thinking more about what the TSA could do I agree that a countrywide sickout wouldn't necessarily be effective. However, a mass sickout of the D.C. Area airports this coming Friday and Saturday, two days when virtually every senator will be attempting to leave town, might be effective. The senate is not in session the week of the 21st so forcing the senators to stay in town might help them grow a backbone and actually do something to resolve this.
Thinking more about what the TSA could do I agree that a countrywide sickout wouldn't necessarily be effective. However, a mass sickout of the D.C. Area airports this coming Friday and Saturday, two days when virtually every senator will be attempting to leave town, might be effective. The senate is not in session the week of the 21st so forcing the senators to stay in town might help them grow a backbone and actually do something to resolve this.
Interesting idea. Reminded me about the Love Canal environmental disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Canal
At one point in their lengthy effort to get help, the article states: "Notably, two EPA employees were also held hostage by activists for approximately 5 hours at the Love Canal Homeowners Association office in order to bring their demands to the attention of the federal government."
That little episode ended peacefully but it did get President Carter's focused attention.
It also reminded me of the successful teachers sickouts/strikes in various states this past year. After just a short time of schools having to close due to lack of teachers, suddenly the governors found money in the budget to increase teacher salaries.
Anyway, looks like Miami is shutting down one of its terminals this weekend. We'll see how this plays out.
I thought the teacher strikes were effective. I don't agree with shutting down the airports, and I don't think it would have any impact on Congress, the way JP1 feels it would.
It would just make life worse for everyone else.
iris lilies
1-12-19, 10:26am
Interesting idea. Reminded me about the Love Canal environmental disaster https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Love_Canal
At one point in their lengthy effort to get help, the article states: "Notably, two EPA employees were also held hostage by activists for approximately 5 hours at the Love Canal Homeowners Association office....
Physical violence? I guess when By Any Means Necessary is the order of the day, we all benefit.
Not.
I thought the teacher strikes were effective. I don't agree with shutting down the airports, and I don't think it would have any impact on Congress, the way JP1 feels it would.
It would just make life worse for everyone else.
I just figured that since the republican senate has no concern for anyone other than themselves (well, and Russia and their rich donors) that the only way to get their attention was with something that actually would affect them personally. It wouldn't need to be for long. Just a couple days when they would all be trying to get home for the weeklong recess.
I just think they would pay for cars or something. Or commandeer (sp?) a train.
I just think they would pay for cars or something. Or commandeer (sp?) a train.
They could still fly, TSA has nothing to do with private charters. Or many of them probably have their own planes anyway. There all wealthy.
They had a bipartisan bill ready to go; then tantrum boy announced he wouldn't sign it. What Congress needs to do is re-vote unanimously on the same bill so that it's veto-proof. The Republican party should stand up to the little dictator for once.
There all wealthy.
No THEY'RE not.
ApatheticNoMore
1-12-19, 12:36pm
I thought the teacher strikes were effective. I don't agree with shutting down the airports, and I don't think it would have any impact on Congress, the way JP1 feels it would.
it would sure reduce greenhouses gas emissions for awhile though, maybe enough to even be a reduction in them for the year.
I just think they would pay for cars or something. Or commandeer (sp?) a train.
I doubt my senator or any from a state near me would opt for that. Not everyone is able to do like joe biden, who famously always took amtrak to work every day when he was a senator.
No THEY'RE not.
Maybe not when they start, but it seems to be a very lucrative career for the majority.
When they had to evacuate Parris Island in a hurricane, they lined up Greyhound buses from all over and sent the recruits out. I'm sure the Marines could send Congress home via Greyhound.
Or they could just stay.
Williamsmith
1-13-19, 6:10am
This again is all grandstanding by both sides. The government shutdown affects only approximately 8% of the federal government. All the rest of government is chugging along quite nicely on our debt. The military is still launching airplanes, social security is writing checks.....etc. For the most part, Americans don’t see any change in day to day life. And he should they, all these areas that are affected shouldn’t even be part of the federal government to begin with. The money for the wall is a drop in the bucket. This is a simple banana republic. Nobody is functioning as an adult. At least, the establishment has been exposed. Just hope this thing is resolved peacefully and the rest of the world holds off calling on our debt for a while longer.
Although most Americans don't "see" the effects in the day-to-day life, I disagree that we are not all affected.
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/01/08/us/politics/government-shutdown-calendar.html
I also disagree that this work shouldn't be done by the federal government in the first place. Do you really want to see a privatized National Science Foundation; National Parks Service; Environmental Protection Agency; National Transportation Safety Board; Center for Disease Control; etc.
Not me.
We have a president who was only elected with 46% of the vote. He views the presidency the same way he views being a CEO. As a dictator. He has only one major legislative victory, a massive, irresponsible tax cut for the rich and corporations, which is quite unpopular with the voters. The voters responded by hammering his party in the midterms. Elections are supposed to have consequences. If the sad sack president won't admit that then it's up to others in his party to act like adults and admit it for him. The democrats have nothing to gain by caving on the unpopular president's unpopular signature issue. All they would accomplish is that they would convince their voters that elections don't matter. This isn't just about $5b. It's about who is going to inspire their voters to come back again in a couple of years and vote.
Chicken lady
1-13-19, 10:17am
I heard somewhere that the White House isn’t paying its water bill. It would be nice if the water company shut it off like they do for regular people.
Teacher Terry
1-13-19, 12:19pm
Yes CL that would be awesome!
Also noted that e-Verify is one of the services not being provided during the shutdown. Oh, the irony ...
This again is all grandstanding by both sides. The government shutdown affects only approximately 8% of the federal government. All the rest of government is chugging along quite nicely on our debt. The military is still launching airplanes, social security is writing checks.....etc. For the most part, Americans don’t see any change in day to day life. And he should they, all these areas that are affected shouldn’t even be part of the federal government to begin with. The money for the wall is a drop in the bucket. This is a simple banana republic. Nobody is functioning as an adult. At least, the establishment has been exposed. Just hope this thing is resolved peacefully and the rest of the world holds off calling on our debt for a while longer.
WS, when speaking to my sister living in North Carolina yesterday, she was describing the ripple effect that she is seeing in businesses experiencing slowdown, especially small businesses. North Carolina residents who experienced severe storm damage similar to Texas and other states are very distressed that funds earmarked for their aid might be used for the 'wall'.
The loss of pay checks is a lot of revenue that is being taken out of circulation in normal daily transactions and not easily replaced, is it not?
And how many places are there like the town in this article, where the main employer IS the federal government?
https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/07/us/florida-government-shutdown-marianna.html
“I voted for him, and he’s the one who’s doing this,” she said of Mr. Trump. “I thought he was going to do good things. He’s not hurting the people he needs to be hurting.”
Teacher Terry
1-14-19, 12:15pm
It’s horrible that the prison employees already must drive 7 hours to work and be gone 2 weeks. Many will need to go into debt to afford the expenses such as gas. It doesn’t say if the employees are getting a free place to stay. Plus if they don’t stay on top of their financial situation they can be disciplined. Talk about a catch 22. Nurses can find jobs easily so the prison might find themselves without any. I would like to know who the person in the article wants trump to hurt.
I really feel sorry for the lower paid workers that live in expensive areas. These are the people least able to afford this crap. At this point I don’t care what happens to trump. He let people die in Puerto Rico by not giving enough aid. He just doesn’t care. The republicans need to grow a backbone and vote to open the government. Luckily we are not flying until the end of February.
I think Trump does care. Several pundits have pointed out that cruelty--especially toward the powerless--is one of the cornerstones of his policies. This shutdown, in which government workers (mostly Democrats, in his mind), contractors, and communities in general, are suffering, is probably catnip to him.
Teacher Terry
1-14-19, 12:49pm
I hadn’t thought of it that way Jane.
frugal-one
1-14-19, 2:14pm
Another thought... Trump probably wants the shutdown to continue so it slows down the investigations being done on him!
Never understood how people thought a billionaire could/would help them. Trump obviously has no clue how an average person lives.
Williamsmith
1-16-19, 1:57pm
Can we start a list of how the government shutdown is directly affecting our own personal daily affairs? I’ll start.....
1.
Ok, I’m done.
rosarugosa
1-16-19, 3:13pm
LOL Williamsmith. Same here.
I’m not seeing ragged GS-17s holding up “will regulate for food” signs at intersections, but I’ve had some pretty long hold times from the IRS recently.
There are at least 46,000 IRS workers furloughed. Probably the reason for long waits. https://www.yahoo.com/news/u-tax-agency-bring-46-000-furloughed-workers-230907984--business.html
Williamsmith
1-16-19, 3:40pm
I’m not seeing ragged GS-17s holding up “will regulate for food” signs at intersections, but I’ve had some pretty long hold times from the IRS recently.
The eternal optimist, I would tell non-essential government workers that this is the perfect opportunity to show just how essential they are. They are the lucky ones. They can work under the table for cash while they are furloughed. The “essential” workers are crap outta luck. I heard that IRS workers are being recalled under special funding so......maybe you’ll get resocialized.
Can we start a list of how the government shutdown is directly affecting our own personal daily affairs? I’ll start.....
1.
Ok, I’m done.
There's a Federal grant program that helps fund fire departments, providing for gear purchases, training, and some amount of stipends for smaller departments.
My department relies upon it as part of our budgeting process.
The people responsible for processing the grant stuff are out-of-the-office due to the shutdown. So no grants, and our yearly budget now has to remove or delay some essential items. My SCBA, the breathing gear I use for structural firefighting and HAZMAT situations, is out-of-date and not compliant with current legal requirements, and was due to be replaced from this grant cycle.
So....
There's that.
The airport I help run relies on the FAA for 90% of its funding. We just blew our yearly budget cycle deadlines because, as usual, non-essential people in the FAA weren't there to sign boring paperwork on the right day, so several medium-sized projects will slip out a year. I'm pretty sure landing aircraft can dodge the potholes.
Just because one isn't immediately threatened by this shutdown doesn't mean millions of other aren't suffering.
Williamsmith
1-16-19, 3:53pm
There's a Federal grant program that helps fund fire departments, providing for gear purchases, training, and some amount of stipends for smaller departments.
My department relies upon it as part of our budgeting process.
The people responsible for processing the grant stuff are out-of-the-office due to the shutdown. So no grants, and our yearly budget now has to remove or delay some essential items. My SCBA, the breathing gear I use for structural firefighting and HAZMAT situations, is out-of-date and not compliant with current legal requirements, and was due to be replaced from this grant cycle.
So....
There's that.
The airport I help run relies on the FAA for 90% of its funding. We just blew our yearly budget cycle deadlines because, as usual, non-essential people in the FAA weren't there to sign boring paperwork on the right day, so several medium-sized projects will slip out a year. I'm pretty sure landing aircraft can dodge the potholes.
Okay, but besides those trivial complaints......you’re doing well I take it? Just kidding....just kidding. I’ll start worrying when the Air Traffic Controllers stop coming to work. The potholes won’t matter then. The planes will just start falling out of the sky.
Teacher Terry
1-16-19, 3:54pm
Exactly Jane and I care about them.
This is just another example of Trump setting a fire and stepping back and getting high just watching everyone scramble. It makes him feel soooooo important.
Williamsmith
1-16-19, 3:57pm
Just because one isn't immediately threatened by this shutdown doesn't mean millions of other aren't suffering.
It doesn’t mean there are millions of others suffering either. If we doubled the size of government does that mean we could eliminate more suffering?
Williamsmith
1-16-19, 3:59pm
This is just another example of Trump setting a fire and stepping back and getting high just watching everyone scramble. It makes him feel soooooo important.
Its no surprise. It’s what he was elected to do. He just has a rather crude way of achieving he same thing Reagan did back in the day. Only Reagan could take your money and make you feel good about it.
It doesn’t mean there are millions of others suffering either. If we doubled the size of government does that mean we could eliminate more suffering?
Well, as a result of not being willing to don the out-of-spec, out-of-date, past-end-of-life(*) breathing gear to run into burning buildings, I'm regrowing my nice beard, so there *is* less suffering in the morning from shaving. I suppose that's a good thing.
(*) We've been sourcing spare parts on Ebay for the past 3 years....
Teacher Terry
1-16-19, 4:02pm
Bae, does that mean your rural community has no fire department now?
Bae, does that mean your rural community has no fire department now?
We have a perfectly good fire department. But some operations we do are now a bit more dangerous, or not even possible if we follow the rules. Even if they don't go inside a building, there is a lot firefighters can do from outside.
That said, if there's a puppy inside a burning building, well, who is to say who broke the rules?
If such mundane local matters as small airport infrastructure and firefighting gear require the blessing of a federal mandarin, couldn’t a reasonable person conclude that our government is too top-heavy?
If such mundane local matters as small airport infrastructure and firefighting gear require the blessing of a federal mandarin, couldn’t a reasonable person conclude that our government is too top-heavy?
They could. But they could also look into the history of how those federal grant programs came into being in the first place to try and determine if they were logical. I was recently at TWA museum in Kansas City and one of the things the docent talked about was that back in the '50's there was just air traffic control in the immediate area surrounding major airports. Once the plane had gotten outside that immediate area they flew whereever. Which resulted in a few crashes. I would suspect that small local airport safety requirements, and funding to pay for those requirements, stems from this. I would assume that a rinky dink airport far from a major airport has less requirements (although maybe not, and it could be argued that they should.) But bae's tiny airport isn't that far from Seattle or Vancouver. Two airports that have lots of traffic through them that could easily get tangled up in bae's airport's traffic. Hence the need for greater safety abilities at it and other similarly situated airports across the country.
Williamsmith
1-17-19, 12:29pm
Here are some very rigorous rules regarding air space around varying sizes of airports and additional technology requirements where air traffic is the greatest. The least restrictive is the see and be seen Unicom type situation that occurs at very small airports but to the point of government.......I feel it is similar to turning up the gain on my amplifier. Too little is not effective, too much ruins everything, there is a sweet spot somewhere in the middle.
Id like to see Nancy and Chuck tell Donald that they will see to it he gets the funding for the wall if he just releases the last four tax returns he has filed. Could be some interesting stepping and fetching going on then.
Or maybe he Dems can explain why they are not in favor of providing national security seeing as how all the opioids and fentanyl that kills our population of addicts comes from across the Mexican border as well as other concerns about safety.
I don’t doubt the wisdom of a national air traffic control or postal system or nuclear deterrent. But there are any number of areas where the feds use their taxing powers to dictate minor matters to street level government. If a sparrow can’t fall to earth or pothole be filled unless some central government commissar wills it, then we are at the mercy of the whims of a pretty remote set of masters.
From my petty perch as a local government bureaucrat, I see this all the time. There is a vast vortex of cash inhaled from local citizens to Washington that then (less administrative friction) flows back through states to the little governments where most of the work gets done. Terms, conditions, mandates and various expensive forms of bureaucratic dominance rituals are accreted along the way.
Teacher Terry
1-17-19, 2:55pm
The Dems don’t want the wall because the drugs are coming across the border in cars. The wall can’t stop it.
The Dems don’t want the wall because the drugs are coming across the border in cars. The wall can’t stop it.
No, the Dems don't want the wall because the President does, so, as long as the President is blamed for the government shutdown, the Dems will ensure it stays shut down for as long as it takes.
If such mundane local matters as small airport infrastructure and firefighting gear require the blessing of a federal mandarin, couldn’t a reasonable person conclude that our government is too top-heavy?
It doesn't require a "blessing", just a signature on the document releasing the funding, which in the airport case is from fuel/landing fees and predesignated for the purpose. Most of it goes to pavement. Sort of like the federal highway system.
You can argue that the government shouldn't be involved in roads, but....
iris lilies
1-17-19, 4:07pm
It doesn't require a "blessing", just a signature on the document releasing the funding, which in the airport case is from fuel/landing fees and predesignated for the purpose. Most of it goes to pavement. Sort of like the federal highway system.
You can argue that the government shouldn't be involved in roads, but....
Isnt the national highway system a basic part of national security? At least, it was explained that way to me.
I think the federal government’s main job is national security so I wouldnt be arguing against that.
Isnt the national highway system a basic part of national security? At least, it was explained that way to me.
I think the federal government’s main job is national security so I wouldnt be arguing against that.
I suspect this airport is too. It's *right* on the border, and we have agreements in place with the local military commands to use it as a staging area for all sorts of fun things. They even come out here and drill.
Miss Cellaneous
1-17-19, 4:11pm
But is the wall necessary? The number of immigrants has decreased annually for several years. Most of the illegal drugs come in through ports of entry or on planes. The largest number of illegal aliens comes from people who overstay their visas.
I have not heard an argument for the wall that does not ignore these two facts. I would be willing to listen to one.
And I also have problems claiming that anyone who does not want the wall does not want strong borders or national security. You can have both without a wall.
Maybe we could spend the money instead on enforcing the current immigration laws that we already have. That might solve some of the problems.
Teacher Terry
1-17-19, 4:30pm
A wall would involve taking people’s homes, impede wildlife and is bad for the environment. As has been pointed out many times most people don’t run across the border. But why confuse people with the actual facts?
Trump's Wall is merely a symbol. His Mt. Rushmore, and a sop to his base, the White Nationalists.
It doesn't require a "blessing", just a signature on the document releasing the funding, which in the airport case is from fuel/landing fees and predesignated for the purpose. Most of it goes to pavement. Sort of like the federal highway system.
You can argue that the government shouldn't be involved in roads, but....
If that’s the case, what purpose does the signature on a document serve in any practical sense?
If that’s the case, what purpose does the signature on a document serve in any practical sense?
I think it has something to do with standard accounting practices. A human has to sign off on it. Human not in office. Timer expires. Start over. Potholes.
Repeat as needed.
Not really my problem anymore though, as I resigned just the other day. I have better things to do with my life at the moment than deal with man-made roadblocks.
I think it has something to do with standard accounting practices. A human has to sign off on it. Human not in office. Timer expires. Start over. Potholes.
Repeat as needed.
Yes, but why does it have to be a human employed by the federal government?
Yes, but why does it have to be a human employed by the federal government?
We don't live in that world.
In this world, the federal government collects taxes on aviation fuel and landings, and then sends those funds to airports to build and maintain infrastructure. Federal employees do the bookkeeping. In some other world, the Feds could outsource the funds-handling and grant-assurance programs to some private firm, but we don't live in that world.
In another world entirely, roads and airports would all be private, and the government, if any, wouldn't be involved in such things. In this world, though, 90% of airport infrastructure work comes from Federal funds, just as the Interstate Highway system is done with Federal funds.
Ineptly, to be sure.
(I'm not allowed to change a burned-out light bulb on a federal navigation fixture here on the field, though it is a 30 second job. In theory, a federally-certified person has to come out to the island, change the bulb, and do all the paperwork.... Which is expensive and takes weeks. Since this requirement was handed down, oddly, none of our bulbs ever burn out.....)
Williamsmith
1-17-19, 5:54pm
So if I have understand this right. Trump wants 5 billion for the wall. Our current national debt is 16-20 trillion? That’s @ 5 million times as much as Trump wants for the wall.......and we are quibbling over a stupid wall and ignoring the debt. Gotcha.
Now this wall has been designed by many wonderful architects. One happens to be based in Columbus, Ohio. He submitted a nice design that would extend the entire 2000+ miles, would have archways with human barriers but would allow animals to freely move, a Traffic way on top that would facilitate emergency vehicles, a bicycle path and walkway, infrastructure for security personnel ..... it would be a tourist attraction. All the amazing structures we have built in this country and you are telling me we can’t build a nice little old wall suggesting that everybody follow the same rules to get in the country.
And add another thing ....This is the first time federal workers have EVER missed a paycheck. And they don’t have any emergency fund or contingency plan because they never thought they’d be in the real world where people get laid off and don’t get a paycheck. Well, welcome to the real world. I went without a paycheck several times and never b*tched or moaned. My state didn’t have a budget for over a year.
If TSA workers walk out, I would not be surprised to see them get fired just like the Air Traffic Controllers did back in the Reagan Administration.
So if I have understand this right. Trump wants 5 billion for the wall. Our current national debt is 16-20 trillion? That’s @ 5 million times as much as Trump wants for the wall.......and we are quibbling over a stupid wall and ignoring the debt. Gotcha.
Sometimes the cost of something is far greater than the dollars involved.
Teacher Terry
1-17-19, 7:46pm
In the real world people who get laid off get unemployment. They don’t. Also they have to keep paying daycare for their kids to hold their spots but some pay through their HSA which they don’t have access too. It has been a month. My husband would get laid off and we had savings but he also got unemployment and he would be looking for a job during that time. The mandatory workers can’t do this. Plus people on section 8 housing won’t have their rent paid and how long can landlords go without all their rent? People pay a portion of their rent and are poor, elderly, disabled, etc. What about the people that depend on Snap to eat?
In the real world people who get laid off get unemployment. They don’t. Also they have to keep paying daycare for their kids to hold their spots but some pay through their HSA which they don’t have access too. It has been a month. My husband would get laid off and we had savings but he also got unemployment and he would be looking for a job during that time. The mandatory workers can’t do this. Plus people on section 8 housing won’t have their rent paid and how long can landlords go without all their rent? People pay a portion of their rent and are poor, elderly, disabled, etc. What about the people that depend on Snap to eat?
They should contact their congressional representatives and instruct them to quit playing politics and compromise.
Or to contact their president and tell him to quit clinging to his extremely unpopular and worthless wall.
We can go round and round in this circle all day long. But at the end of the day the majority of Americans blame trump and also think the wall is stupid. There is precisely zero benefit for the democrats in giving the dude a mega maga win.
There is precisely zero benefit for the democrats in giving the dude a mega maga win.
You're right, they can keep the government closed indefinitely without being held responsible by their base, so don't be surprised if they do.
Williamsmith
1-17-19, 8:51pm
It’s never good for the party that is blocking funding to be doing so just because they hate Trump. Is the Children’s Health Insurance Program still being funded?
It’s never good for the party that is blocking funding to be doing so just because they hate Trump. Is the Children’s Health Insurance Program still being funded?
Imdeed. So maybe we can expect mcconnell to bring the house bills before the senate sometime soon? After all they passed unanimously just a month ago in the senate.
flowerseverywhere
1-17-19, 10:57pm
So if I have understand this right. Trump wants 5 billion for the wall. Our current national debt is 16-20 trillion? That’s @ 5 million times as much as Trump wants for the wall.......and we are quibbling over a stupid wall and ignoring the debt. Gotcha.
Now this wall has been designed by many wonderful architects. One happens to be based in Columbus, Ohio. He submitted a nice design that would extend the entire 2000+ miles, would have archways with human barriers but would allow animals to freely move, a Traffic way on top that would facilitate emergency vehicles, a bicycle path and walkway, infrastructure for security personnel ..... it would be a tourist attraction. All the amazing structures we have built in this country and you are telling me we can’t build a nice little old wall suggesting that everybody follow the same rules to get in the country.
And add another thing ....This is the first time federal workers have EVER missed a paycheck. And they don’t have any emergency fund or contingency plan because they never thought they’d be in the real world where people get laid off and don’t get a paycheck. Well, welcome to the real world. I went without a paycheck several times and never b*tched or moaned. My state didn’t have a budget for over a year.
If TSA workers walk out, I would not be surprised to see them get fired just like the Air Traffic Controllers did back in the Reagan Administration.
What is the cost estimate per mile? How long will it take to build? What about eminent domain? What about the tribal land this would cross? I find it very difficult to believe an administration that cannot even arrange food for a championship team beyond cold McDonalds and Wendy’s would ever pull this off in one hundred years.
how would animals navigate the archways if humans could not? Do you have links to this plan?
We don't live in that world.
But we don’t have to live there. So much power needn’t flow from the imperial center to grateful supplicants in the provinces.
Miss Cellaneous
1-18-19, 10:24am
So if I have understand this right. Trump wants 5 billion for the wall. Our current national debt is 16-20 trillion? That’s @ 5 million times as much as Trump wants for the wall.......and we are quibbling over a stupid wall and ignoring the debt. Gotcha.
Now this wall has been designed by many wonderful architects. One happens to be based in Columbus, Ohio. He submitted a nice design that would extend the entire 2000+ miles, would have archways with human barriers but would allow animals to freely move, a Traffic way on top that would facilitate emergency vehicles, a bicycle path and walkway, infrastructure for security personnel ..... it would be a tourist attraction. All the amazing structures we have built in this country and you are telling me we can’t build a nice little old wall suggesting that everybody follow the same rules to get in the country.
And add another thing ....This is the first time federal workers have EVER missed a paycheck. And they don’t have any emergency fund or contingency plan because they never thought they’d be in the real world where people get laid off and don’t get a paycheck. Well, welcome to the real world. I went without a paycheck several times and never b*tched or moaned. My state didn’t have a budget for over a year.
If TSA workers walk out, I would not be surprised to see them get fired just like the Air Traffic Controllers did back in the Reagan Administration.
But is all that necessary? I have yet to be convinced by anyone that a wall spanning the entire southern border of the US is necessary. Apparently more terrorist suspects enter the US from Canada than from Mexico. But no one is suggesting a wall on our northern border.
Granted, there is most likely a need for walls on parts of the southern border. But across the entire border? I need more facts to convince me of that.
So if I have understand this right. Trump wants 5 billion for the wall. Our current national debt is 16-20 trillion? That’s @ 5 million times as much as Trump wants for the wall.......and we are quibbling over a stupid wall and ignoring the debt. Gotcha.
It does seem a little trivial when you look at the big scheme of things. No doubt our government squanders away at least as much on extravagant defense things. Wikipedia says that one B-2 stealth bomber runs about 2 billion when you factor in development and testing costs.
But my take is that the wall debate is a small degree about the cost and practicality of the wall and mostly political posturing and saving face. It's too bad the government workers have to suffer because of dysfunctional politics and political personalities.
But my take is that the wall debate is a small degree about the cost and practicality of the wall and mostly political posturing and saving face. It's too bad the government workers have to suffer because of dysfunctional politics and political personalities.
This is definitely political arm wrestling. Both sides have a lot to lose. If the Dems buckle and give Trump the money for the wall, unless they can impeach him before then, he wins in 2020. If he doesn't get the wall, he might just go off the rails somehow. He's not a gracious loser. (He's not a gracious winner, either.)
Or, as Julius Sharpe put it on Twitter (regarding Trump's suborning of perjury):
"Will it be this that finally brings him down? Or the other hundred obviously illegal things? Find out in this episode of “Nothing Matters Anymore”!"
Or, as Julius Sharpe put it on Twitter (regarding Trump's suborning of perjury):
"Will it be this that finally brings him down? Or the other hundred obviously illegal things? Find out in this episode of “Nothing Matters Anymore”!"
I understand Mueller's office has referred to that story as "not accurate" .
Williamsmith
1-19-19, 12:53am
Yes, it will be so nice when Trump finally gets impeached. Things will be so much better with Mike Pence as President. Hmm.
If it does play out that pence becomes an accidental president i suspect he’ll be as much of a placeholder kinda guy as Ford was. But it will be fun to watch him flail around and try to pretend otherwise if that’s how he thinks it needs to go.
OMG! President Pence! Said no one ever. Except maybe mother pence.
ApatheticNoMore
1-19-19, 8:41am
Remember what Dems aren't doing (congressional R's also, but who expects anything of them, HOWEVER R's DID used to be able to porkbarrel along with the best of them) is bargaining to GET SOMETHING IN RETURN for a wall. These out of touch idiots can't even pork-barrel properly and make one nostalgic for pork barrel politics done right.
Like ok you get 5 billion for your ridiculous wall, but in return we get 5 billion for roads or bridges, or poverty programs, or mental health, or solar panels on roofs or etc. something, anything. They can't think of a *single* thing to even try to bargain for 5 billion for. They are literally so out of touch they don't think 5 billion on the ground would do any good I guess. They wouldn't know a shovel ready project if they stepped on it and said shovel hit them in the face. But the government can't afford 10 billion? Oh utter nonsense, the government can afford whatever it wants, it's refusal to spend it on anything that might benefit ordinary people is only and ever about priorities.
But a wall would still be a waste of resources? Yes it would but with the military one of the biggest polluters and greenhouse gas emitters in the world, it's the wrong hill to die on for that cause (and noone even claims to care about that almost anyway). If that's what the government cared about, and it doesn't, it would look at all military programs very carefully and evaluate Green New Deal proposals for net environmental impact (some of which have to be worth doing). But why pretend that's what our government cares about.
The unpaid government workers, I know it's hard in so many ways, but I wish they would strike, carry the picket: AGAINST SLAVERY! That is all.
I agree, ANM, but I think that wall has become such a symbol that that's what they're fighting for--just a symbol.
McConnell could end this now. #wheresmitch
There's no point in negotiating with a guy who doesn't honor his word.
And frankly, I don't care if that stupid wall was free, I don't want a gigantic monument to racism on the southern border of my country.
I understand Mueller's office has referred to that story as "not accurate" .
Buzzfeed stands by their story, but it may be--as happened to the Washington Post during Watergate--that the attribution or some other detail of the story is wrong, supplying plausible deniability.
There's no point in negotiating with a guy who doesn't honor his word.
And frankly, I don't care if that stupid wall was free, I don't want a gigantic monument to racism on the southern border of my country.
Amen.
ApatheticNoMore
1-19-19, 1:51pm
There's no point in negotiating with a guy who doesn't honor his word.
is it about his word or about passing a government spending bill that has various spending priorities in it that either gets signed by the president or doesn't (actually with 2/3s majority do they EVEN need his signature, ok not clear on that one, generally no, but maybe there are exceptions. And no neither party has 2/3s, they would have to cooperate - but this is where the narrative of it all being Trump completely falls apart no? It's about the parties being so polarized they can't pass a spending bill.). So I could be wrong but isn't that how things actually work and not some fictional "trusting his word" as if it was a sweet nothing whispered in Melania's ears not to cheat on her.
And frankly, I don't care if that stupid wall was free, I don't want a gigantic monument to racism on the southern border of my country.
there are barriers there already, probably better thought out for sure but ... I wish Trump would just compromise and be ok with more government scanners and maybe more border patrol agents, other more likely to work border security measures than his wall, and it could be resolved that way, like ok we'll put money into border security but lets get more inputs from the agencies actually involved. But there really is no compromises on either side. So porkbarelling is a compromise I think could be tried and yet isn't being. Because I actually take it for granted Trump isn't a rational actor, but there needs to fire under those who are (R's and D's in congress) to get this government open again anyway instead of playing it for political points.
And the only one's suffering are government workers or those actually losing benefits (not many yet): strike or burn the damn place down is all I have to say to the government workers. Be as lazy as you want to and don't try to fight it being you are only working for the fun of it and work isn't likely that fun, give people refunds they don't deserve, work to rule, slow down, speed up and mess it all up because you are pawns so a bunch of assholes can pander to their deeply propagandized bases and win brownie points (which are supposed to compromise for all the real things we can't get out of our government - like you know decent paying jobs or a decent healthcare system etc.). And apparently slavery is legal in the U.S. and not just for prisoners.
Trump had agreed to sign a continuing resolution in december. So the senate passed it and the house was going to pass it. Then ann coulter and rush limbaugh called him a weakling and he changed his mind . He doesnt keep his word.
This could obviously be over today if Congress would just vote overwhelmingly to fund the government with a veto-proof majority. What's stopping them? (Rhetorical question)
Teacher Terry
1-19-19, 3:46pm
He is speaking at 3 eastern time today.
Well, this frees up some more of my time.
"Commissioner of Public Lands Hilary Franz
The federal government shutdown continues to negatively impact our wildfire preparation. The Pacific Northwest Wildfire Coordinating Group has canceled a crucial 700-person interagency training in Yakima. The team who plans the training are primarily federal employees who are furloughed. This training will not be able to be rescheduled.
If our federal, state, and local firefighters are to effectively work together on the firelines, they must train together. This is a huge cost to Washington. The federal government needs to reopen now."
I don't know if the media is capitalizing on just a few examples, but there seems to be a painful lesson that there are a lot of people living pay check to pay check. People going to food banks and unable to make mortgage payments. One figure tossed out was that the media federal worker pay was around $65,000 per year.
The eminent Wilbert Ross says that federal workers can get a government secured low interest loan and are guaranteed back pay for lost wages. I wonder how long that loan approval process would take. The people who will come out on the worst end on things are those who are not fed workers but depend on the government agencies being open for income.
The risk of environmental damage is priceless.
ApatheticNoMore
1-25-19, 1:44am
I don't know if the media is capitalizing on just a few examples, but there seems to be a painful lesson that there are a lot of people living pay check to pay check. People going to food banks and unable to make mortgage payments.
it almost seems people living in a world that doesn't even exist. Like it's almost like hearing 2/3 the population can't read "See spot run" or something. Because if it is really true that they can collect unemployment (and it is but I don't know if that applies to those going to work or just those sitting at home etc.), there is no world anywhere where a person can expect not to have periods without a job. If that's the world federal workers were living in, none of the rest of us can relate.
One can *hope* any periods of unemployment are brief periods. And one can hope one always qualifies for unemployment when it happens (a somewhat risky assumption but ... ). In my two decades in the work force, I've been unemployed 3 times so far, this is facing the situation those workers face, having to live on unemployment. The media can capitalize on it, but that is the situation EVERYONE who loses a job faces and almost everyone WILL lose a job at some point in their life. So it's really a universal experience (only unlike they unemployed they will with certainty get their jobs back someday). It's not actually possible to live off unemployment entirely generally, I had savings as did my bf when he lost his job and he's far from rich (one time I didn't even qualify for unemployment, fine that time I quit an impossible situation - and this was when we were in the Great Recession as well, was I scared, oh my). So maybe for those sitting at home it's like a less nerve wracking unemployment, but for those working without pay, I think I might not be even able to make myself work at all, pay is the only reason for working, and if it's not there and on a regular Skinner reinforcement schedule too ...
One figure tossed out was that the media federal worker pay was around $65,000 per year.
but that's pretty good money, no, depending? Most people should be able to live on and save money on that income (and btw that is higher than the median pay almost anywhere as a whole). *Household* (not individual) income almost everywhere (even where cost of living is not so cheap) is lower than that. Fine it's the median so not everyone earns it, some are earning 30k, ok that's hard (or at least it would be crazy hard to live on 30k *here*, but maybe work somewhere real cheap).
Williamsmith
1-25-19, 2:30am
Of course, the partial government shutdown has consequences as Bae can attest to. Another of them being that it is actually going to cost the taxpayers money. Because we are going to pay people for not coming to work.
How about we get as concerned about the government actually working and borrowing a trillion dollars a year to function. That should concern everyone enough to stop the spending spree. All these endangered workers that have been declared unessential. Maybe we should look at why we are paying people to do unessential jobs?
In a real world where sticking to your budget means survival or financial ruin....there are no unessential employees because we realize it’s unsustainable.
ApatheticNoMore
1-25-19, 2:55am
In a real world where sticking to your budget means survival or financial ruin....there are no unessential employees because we realize it’s unsustainable.
I'm not sure where this real world exists, hiring one's personal assistant? I find most people who think corporate America is so well run, have usually spent very little time in corporate America, because enough experience will disabuse most people of that notion. And I mean in terms of optimizing profits. But you know it's kind of ok, it's not great but way more people probably need money to live than there are really useful things to be done.
But no IRS agents for example are not actually unessential.
Williamsmith
1-25-19, 6:11am
IRS agents have access to information that I was able to use to turn otherwise uncooperative witnesses into fountains of useful information. It is the kind of information that requires one to declare income streams, sources and amounts under penalty of incarceration. It is the kind of power that gets abused easily. Hardly unessential to the criminal investigator. Mostly unnecessary since there are other ways of structuring a tax than to club society over the head with constant threat.
Miss Cellaneous
1-25-19, 10:06am
Unemployment--It is my understanding that if a federal worker is working unpaid, they are considered to be working and cannot collect unemployment. If they are not working at their federal job, they can collect unemployment but they must pay the unemployment money back when they receive back pay. I'm not sure how that works; one would hope that they aren't expected to pay it all back in one lump sum the moment they get their back pay but instead have a few weeks/months to repay it.
How some of the federal workers who are not getting paid are paying for gas and tolls and child care, I do not know. I suspect some of the "sick days" being taken are really because the employee has no way to get to work or no one to watch the kids.
sweetana3
1-25-19, 11:29am
In my former agency, there are hardship exemptions for lack of child care etc.
Luckily we are not flying until the end of February.
Shoot! I'm flying out to the West Coast February 6. I hope the shutdown is over by then.
Teacher Terry
1-25-19, 1:43pm
California is giving all federal employees not being paid unemployment whether they are working or not. Yes they will have to pay it back.
So, do we think trump completely and utterly caved because airports were shutting down, wilbur ross’s ‘let them eat cake’ moment or something else?
So, do we think trump completely and utterly caved because airports were shutting down, wilbur ross’s ‘let them eat cake’ moment or something else?
I think he just got bored. I hope that doesn’t mean we’ll be invading Venezuela.
Williamsmith
1-25-19, 7:55pm
Have we made America great again yet?
Teacher Terry
1-25-19, 7:57pm
The next crisis is 2/15 and we fly out on the 20th. Ugh!
Williamsmith
1-26-19, 8:48am
The partial government shutdown was a trial balloon by Trump which served two purposes: it provided feedback as to how a prolonged shutdown might play out as either beneficial or detrimental to the President’s public approval and it prepared the way for a declaration of national emergency which would provide a means to begin border wall construction.
The national emergency declaration draft is already in the works.
Perhaps other global happenings have the Presidents attention ....Venezuela. Securing access to the vast natural resources of that country would prove very beneficial and having a military presence there would be equally satisfying for hawks. Many NATO governments have given Maduro a week to hold a pop up election.
Aka the wall, is on the back burner for now.
I think you are right, Wiliam Smith. The games are disgusting but not surprising.
I wonder if, now that the government is back open, the workers will get their back pay for the time they missed work, or if there will be some sort of wait. I imagine a lot of them have bills piling up that need to be caught up with.
I don't think we've heard the end of the medieval wall that Mexico was supposed to pay for. Ann Coulter says T caved, and he probably won't take that lightly, although his other White House adviser, Hannity, seemed to be OK with things.
Taking votes on what the next "crisis" to distract will be! Sing out!
Taking votes on what the next "crisis" to distract will be! Sing out!
invade Venezuela. Plenty of oil, and the citizens may welcome it.
Williamsmith
1-27-19, 12:09am
invade Venezuela. Plenty of oil, and the citizens may welcome it.
The military industrial complex playbook is sophisticated in its ability to wring out all profits via tax payers and debt funding. The invasion is usually unfolded at about half time. Before that is the secret funding of insurgents, selling the opposition weaponry, insertion of CIA operatives who are still military but have state department dossiers, and then after making an entire shambles of the country .... an invasion subsequent to a bombing campaign which necessitates the replacement of the Air Force stockpile. None of this will be authorized by Congress nor will Congress insist on fulfilling their Constitutional mandate. They will wax eloquently about how after the Venezuelan tyrant is deposed and his regime eliminated....more advisors will have to enter the country to teach them how to run a democracy.
Venezuela would make a nice alternative for all these South American refugees instead of crashing our borders, maybe they can go the other way.
flowerseverywhere
1-27-19, 8:27am
Taking votes on what the next "crisis" to distract will be! Sing out!
roger stones emails and texts will reveal he evaded taxes through complicated offshore accounts (whatever that really means) and was talking about various Russian things with other people close to Trump. Then we will hear cries of “witch hunt and butter emails”. There may even be a smocking gun.
Williamsmith
1-27-19, 11:36am
roger stones emails and texts will reveal he evaded taxes through complicated offshore accounts (whatever that really means) and was talking about various Russian things with other people close to Trump. Then we will hear cries of “witch hunt and butter emails”. There may even be a smocking gun.
Yes and someone will capture Sasquatch.
Powered by vBulletin® Version 4.2.5 Copyright © 2025 vBulletin Solutions Inc. All rights reserved.