So Did Trump Cave? Is he weakened?

[gimmethesimplelife]

I'm wondering if the man has something up his sleeve, and/or if this sorry spectacle is going to rinse and repeat again as of February 15th? I've read online that Nancy Pelosi is considered to have scored herself and the Democratic party a victory over Trump - do you see it as such? The problem is that the one with orange hair is such a wild card - who knows what he's up to? Were it any other President, an analysis of Trump's move here to reopen the government would be much easier. I don't trust the man and I understand that he could care less for the collateral damage/victims of his decisions. What do you think? Rob

[Zoe Girl]

I would be worried about an extreme and punishing backlash, and not too far in the future. It may be with a shit down again or another way. If he truly cannot get his precious wall I have a feeling we will all pay dearly in some way. Still I think focusing on border security that makes some reasonable sense is a win for everyone (including honoring the international standards for those seeking legal pathways to being in the US).

[jp1]

Nancy clearly won this. She listened to what the voters wanted, didn't negotiate with a hostage taker and in the end he got exactly nothing and caved. If the negotiating skills he brought to this fight are the ones he uses in his business it's not particularly surprising that he's had to declare bankruptcy six times.

Who knows what tomorrow will bring, but I'll worry about that when it happens.

[Williamsmith]

Nancy clearly won this. She listened to what the voters wanted, didn't negotiate with a hostage taker and in the end he got exactly nothing and caved. If the negotiating skills he brought to this fight are the ones he uses in his business it's not particularly surprising that he's had to declare bankruptcy six times.

Who knows what tomorrow will bring, but I'll worry about that when it happens.

Its fascinating how people in different parts of the country view it. Those I observe in the heartland think Nancy Pelosi has simply just captured a pawn that was put out as bait for an eventual checkmate. We will see but Trump has managed thus far to avoid a determined campaign to impeach him, I don’t know why anyone would look at the history of his Presidency and conclude he will not get his wall. One way or “ta Otha”.

[jp1]

I might agree with the 5 dimensional chess theory if trump had any sort of history of showing that type of skill.

[Teacher Terry]

Trump’s the loser in this.

[Alan]

Trump’s the loser in this.I think the government contractors who lost a month's salary are the real losers, but they're already forgotten as people revel in the new Speaker's refusal to compromise and the perception of a Trump loss.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I think the government contractors who lost a month's salary are the real losers, but they're already forgotten as people revel in the new Speaker's refusal to compromise and the perception of a Trump loss.Alan, I take it then that you don't see Trump as refusing to compromise? Interesting. Though I don't especially care for this sub tropical low desert climate, not a day passes that I'm not grateful that I live in the 85006. You would be hard pressed here to not find someone grateful for the shutdown's at least temporary end, and also not saying a kind word or two about Pelosi and more than a negative word or two regarding Trump. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Trump’s the loser in this.I would agree. He basically held the Federal Workforce economically hostage for his bleeping wall and ended out reopening without gaining a single thing for the economic hostage-taking. Ummmm.....seriously NOT WINNING!!! And not making America great again, either, ugly red hats be damned. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Nancy clearly won this. She listened to what the voters wanted, didn't negotiate with a hostage taker and in the end he got exactly nothing and caved. If the negotiating skills he brought to this fight are the ones he uses in his business it's not particularly surprising that he's had to declare bankruptcy six times.

Who knows what tomorrow will bring, but I'll worry about that when it happens.I could not agree more with everything you have posted here, jp1. Especially about the declaring bankruptcy six times part. Rob

[Teacher Terry]

I feel very sorry for the contractors. One of my friends is effected by this. I also feel bad for the federal employees. Trump and his allies don’t care about people. That’s obvious by telling them to take loans or have a garage sale. Ugh!

[gimmethesimplelife]

I feel very sorry for the contractors. One of my friends is effected by this. I also feel bad for the federal employees. Trump and his allies don’t care about people. That’s obvious by telling them to take loans or have a garage sale. Ugh!No, it's obvious that Trump and his cronies could care less for the collateral damage of their policies/decisions such as the unnecessary suffering of Federal Workers. What's gets me is that there are still American citizens that find this acceptable. Based on this fact alone, I have little faith in the viability of the United States as a country for average everyday people going forward. Rob

[Teacher Terry]

No one I know thinks this is acceptable.

[gimmethesimplelife]

No one I know thinks this is acceptable.Nor do most people i know but I know of Trump supporters, not friends of mine, who find the collateral damage perfectly acceptable provided they get their campaign promises fulfilled. But once again, such people are not friends of mine - and oddly enough do not live in the 85006 or a similar area, either......though I also believe that not everyone by far in more upscale hoods are down with Trump's cavalier attitude towards the collateral damage he is directly responsible for. Rob

[Alan]

Alan, I take it then that you don't see Trump as refusing to compromise? Interesting. He did compromise by allowing the government to re-open after the Speaker announced that she would not authorize one dollar for the wall. If the Speaker won, it's because of her refusal to compromise regardless of the collateral damage.

[silly moo]

He did compromise by allowing the government to re-open after the Speaker announced that she would not authorize one dollar for the wall. If the Speaker won, it's because of her refusal to compromise regardless of the collateral damage.


This is exactly what a lot of people I know are saying, even the ones that typical vote Democrat.

[jp1]

Perhaps if trump and the republicans care so much about these contractors beyond using them as an excuse to blame nancy for not giving in to a hostage taking, unpopular president they should propose legislation that all government contracts will be paid in full after a shitdown and that all employees for that contractor have to be paid for the missed work once the shutdown is over.

[jp1]

But considering the president’s past relationships with contractors i certainly wouldnt hold my breath waiting for that legislation.

[Teacher Terry]

Trump loves to stiff people who have worked let alone people that haven’t.

[jp1]

Honestly, better legislation would be legislation that states that if a new funding bill for any department does not get passed by the time the old funding has run out that funding will continue at the current level until such new funding bill gets passed. But, of course, I doubt republicans would go along with losing one of their biggest bludgeons willingly.

[gimmethesimplelife]

Trump loves to stiff people who have worked let alone people that haven’t.And it's an established pattern of behavior.....very scary that the man was elected in the first place. What does this say about America? Rob

[Rogar]

I suppose it's the nature of things to declare a winner and a loser, but other than promoting the party and saving face I did not see clear policy winners or losers. T may still get his wall or pull some other rabbit out of his hat. Pelosi did not get any genuine opportunity to negociate for any concessions for DACA or advance any other immigration issue. If there is some sort of real border crisis there was no real investigation or research into a practical solution. The Federal workers were the real losers.

[Williamsmith]

I’m not surprised by some of the hatred for Donald Trump expressed on social media and even here at times. And I’m not trying to make a judgement as to whether it is deserved or not. I have however become convinced that when a person as prevelant as Trump can move someone to anger so easily and so often.....it is time for one to embrace peace and love. I don’t really have to the room for both hatred and love in my life. So I try to choose love and it always results in peace. Hatred has always had the opposite effect on my life. Feel free to beat me over the head with my own words the next time I violate this truth.

[jp1]

When trump, mcconnell, graham and all the others who are willing to destroy our country in order to retain power are ready to sit down, hold hands, and sing kumbayah maybe i’ll consider joining in. Until then, no effing way.

[flowerseverywhere]

I’m not surprised by some of the hatred for Donald Trump expressed on social media and even here at times. And I’m not trying to make a judgement as to whether it is deserved or not. I have however become convinced that when a person as prevelant as Trump can move someone to anger so easily and so often.....it is time for one to embrace peace and love. I don’t really have to the room for both hatred and love in my life. So I try to choose love and it always results in peace. Hatred has always had the opposite effect on my life. Feel free to beat me over the head with my own words the next time I violate this truth.

I’m getting old and through my life I have seen much meanness, hate, racism and evil. We all have a choice. I choose not to condone hatefulness. The birther, Muslim Obama nonsense, inciting crowds to chant lock her up, lying that Mexico would pay for the wall, saying he had a plan for better health care that cost less, was more comprehensive and could insure more people, he has dreamers back, he loves the Gay community, coal mines will reopen. how do you expect people to feel? Betrayed, disgusted, proud?

and those mocking nicknames. All these finest people he chose to surround him, then once they do anything he doesn’t like, they are suddenly the worst of the worst. Just the other day he tweeted about crooked Hillary. Seriously, 800,000 people are out of work and you continue to fantasize about Hillary Clinton? Get a grip. Work on the problems, like healthcare, infrastructure and illegal immigration like you promised in conjunction with the other branches of government like you should have done with a majority in the house and senate. Instead you and your cronies were more interested in making sure you could say Merry Christmas and restrict women’s access to reproductive healthcare. And the wall for which you will have to steal American Citizens land. Work with the other branches with sane proposals and negotiations. Not some crazy schemes fueled by lies that Stephen Miller, Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity dream up.

Our deficit is soaring, our infrastructure is not being improved, our focus on America First is drifting away as we contemplate meddling in Venezuela. Our healthcare is getting worse, big pharma is getting richer. Finally the illegals you employed are fired, now bring manufacturing of your goods back to the US.

He is truly a mean mean lonely man with ugliness in his heart which is why he is so hated.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I’m getting old and through my life I have seen much meanness, hate, racism and evil. We all have a choice. I choose not to condone hatefulness. The birther, Muslim Obama nonsense, inciting crowds to chant lock her up, lying that Mexico would pay for the wall, saying he had a plan for better health care that cost less, was more comprehensive and could insure more people, he has dreamers back, he loves the Gay community, coal mines will reopen. how do you expect people to feel? Betrayed, disgusted, proud?

and those mocking nicknames. All these finest people he chose to surround him, then once they do anything he doesn’t like, they are suddenly the worst of the worst. Just the other day he tweeted about crooked Hillary. Seriously, 800,000 people are out of work and you continue to fantasize about Hillary Clinton? Get a grip. Work on the problems, like healthcare, infrastructure and illegal immigration like you promised in conjunction with the other branches of government like you should have done with a majority in the house and senate. Instead you and your cronies were more interested in making sure you could say Merry Christmas and restrict women’s access to reproductive healthcare. And the wall for which you will have to steal American Citizens land. Work with the other branches with sane proposals and negotiations. Not some crazy schemes fueled by lies that Stephen Miller, Rush Limbaugh and Sean Hannity dream up.

Our deficit is soaring, our infrastructure is not being improved, our focus on America First is drifting away as we contemplate meddling in Venezuela. Our healthcare is getting worse, big pharma is getting richer. Finally the illegals you employed are fired, now bring manufacturing of your goods back to the US.

He is truly a mean mean lonely man with ugliness in his heart which is why he is so hated.I know we have had our disagreements in the past, Flowerseverywhere (I still really love your screen name, btw) but here I could not agree with you more. Agreed with everything you have said here 100%. Rob

[jp1]

One of the things I have noted during trump's recent decision to hold the government hostage, as well as a variety of other previous political skirmishes is that all the calls for "compromise" and "they should negotiate" seem to be aimed at the democrats. Very few seem inclined to point out the republican refusal to negotiate or their instigation of whatever the current impasse is. It's sort of like the accepted view is that republicans are men and their rudeness and assholery is a given but that the democrats are women and therefore should strive for compromise and niceness.

[Teacher Terry]

Flowers you are so right!

[Yppej]

One of the things I have noted during trump's recent decision to hold the government hostage, as well as a variety of other previous political skirmishes is that all the calls for "compromise" and "they should negotiate" seem to be aimed at the democrats. Very few seem inclined to point out the republican refusal to negotiate or their instigation of whatever the current impasse is. It's sort of like the accepted view is that republicans are men and their rudeness and assholery is a given but that the democrats are women and therefore should strive for compromise and niceness.

I hear the right wingers in my office, male and female alike, directing all their venom at Elizabeth Warren and Nancy Pelosi, never say Chuck Schumer. There is definitely a sexist bias at work.

[gimmethesimplelife]

I hear the right wingers in my office, male and female alike, directing all their venom at Elizabeth Warren and Nancy Pelosi, never say Chuck Schumer. There is definitely a sexist bias at work.I agree. I have eavesdropped on a few conversations of well dressed businesspeople in downtown Phoenix and have heard similar. Pelosi especially is bashed more than Warren is what I have overheard from these radicals - I realize also that to some, these opinions are not radical. In my infamous zip code, such is indeed considered radical. I even went to a downtown printing shop as I needed to have something work related printed up and two associates behind the counter were up talking up Trump and bashing Democrats (though not any specific Democrat, to be fair). I turned to them and smiled and really queened it up as only I can (not the way I behave unless very provoked as I've always believed that I need to bring more than just sexual preference to the table in life) and said, "My husband and I don't agree with you."

The looks I received in return helped make my year for me! Rob

[Zoe Girl]

Thank you Flowers, that is well put. They did have 2 years to work on the problems that our country faces and they didn't. Now it is the fault of people who weren't even elected yet. I knew that something had radically changed when my Buddhist teacher started saying it was not time to find ways to connect and understand but to take action against what was harming others.

There are so many parallels with my experiences in an abusive relationship, counselors who said we each needed to own 50% of a problem but not all problems are 50-50. There is a reality here (like border security is not best addressed by a wall according to experts in security and large wall construction). In my experience I found many different responses to my ex who had more power by the people around us. One was that I was encouraged to take more of the responsibility because I was apparently more mature. Another was that he was rather out of touch with the impact of his actions and thought our friends preferred him.

Trump and other leaders are so out of touch as we have seen with the recent callous comments about how the furloughed workers can afford food and housing payments. They really believe in some magical period of American generosity. I am not sure there was a time when a grocer would float you on a month's of food because you were a good neighbor. However this explains so much about their version of things. How we do not need tax supported services because average Americans are just helping each other. It has been eye opening to understand this.

[Lainey]

Can I add a slightly different take: I despise the media's emphasis on winners/losers. It's been the mode of covering politics for many years now - who is ahead, who is behind, like a horse race or a wrestling match. The constant polling and the many minutes of news devoted to this means that what gets lost in this frenzy is the facts. People get upset because their side took a perceived hit, just like a pro athlete in a game, so now they look for some way to attack the other side's politician and so it continues.

Maybe it's asking too much, but I believe while some residents of our country relish the winners/losers game, I think most of us rational adults would prefer to return to a clear discussion of the facts. Because if we can't agree on the facts, we can't agree on policy and priorities for our future.

[Miss Cellaneous]

I don't hate Trump. He isn't worth that much emotion or space in my head. I just want him gone. Gone before he destroys what is left of the US's reputation in the world. Gone before he completely takes away all rights from women.

There is no emergency at the border. There is no crisis, except that of the Trump administration's making. There is less immigration than even two years ago. If the administration were serious about dealing with the issue of illegal aliens, they would get to work enforcing visas and making sure people leave the country when their visas expire.

I am tired of the lies coming from this administration. I am tired of seeing so many people associated with the campaign and administration charged with serious crimes. I am tired of having the president shoved in my face daily by the news media. And I'm tired of a president who thinks his job is to be in the news constantly. I'm tired of a president running the country as if it were a reality tv show. I am tired of the mean and hateful and untrue tweets, tweets that are not befitting the conduct of the highest office in the land.

He couldn't get the wall when Republicans controlled both houses of Congress. Why does he think he can get it now? Oh, because a Fox News host belittled him for not getting the wall. I am tired of a president who has no strength of character but who bends to every Fox News host and their criticism of him.

I'm just tired. Tired of having to make a trip to the local Coast Guard base every week for the past month to deliver gift cards and diapers. Tired of having to write and call Congress to help protect the limited rights women have. Tired of having to reassure those around me that the country has weathered the storm before and it will again (this is all the harder because I'm not sure it can this time).

I'm not saying impeach him. For one thing, that leaves us with Pence. For another, his base will only see impeachment as a further threat to them. It would make any hope we have of even partly uniting this divided country more and more impossible.

Pelosi for the moment seems to be able to contain him. Good. If the Democrats can keep this up for two more years and limit the damage to the country, we can start afresh in 2020.

(For the record, I am registered as "undeclared" because after the last two presidential elections, I cannot stand to be a member of either party.)

[Rogar]

I’m getting old and through my life I have seen much meanness, hate, racism and evil. We all have a choice. I choose not to condone hatefulness.....

He is truly a mean mean lonely man with ugliness in his heart which is why he is so hated.

Seems slightly contradictory to me, if I've not taken it out of context. Anger and hate are not healthy emotions spiritually or physically in my book, whether it's coming from 45, his supporters, or from his enemies. I have been thinking about the stoicism thread and how it is good to step back and be objective without the negativity that goes along with it.

I know people who are angry and go out to do something about it by campaigning door to door, or pestering politicians with phone calls and letters, or going to organized protests, which seems like a healthy way to diffuse things and deal with the emotions.

Other wise, it is just like being angry that it is cold outside or drivers are bad. It's something we all probably experience, but can also control and let go of with not much effort.

I'm not perfect on this, but there is a lot of unnecessary anger and hate from both sides of the fence (or wall in some cases) that just is not healthy.

[flowerseverywhere]

Seems slightly contradictory to me, if I've not taken it out of context. Anger and hate are not healthy emotions spiritually or physically in my book, whether it's coming from 45, his supporters, or from his enemies. I have been thinking about the stoicism thread and how it is good to step back and be objective without the negativity that goes along with it.

I know people who are angry and go out to do something about it by campaigning door to door, or pestering politicians with phone calls and letters, or going to organized protests, which seems like a healthy way to diffuse things and deal with the emotions.

Other wise, it is just like being angry that it is cold outside or drivers are bad. It's something we all probably experience, but can also control and let go of with not much effort.

I'm not perfect on this, but there is a lot of unnecessary anger and hate from both sides of the fence (or wall in some cases) that just is not healthy.

I have been doing all those things, plus I helped pick up food for our local food bank. We have 1200 prison guards working about thirty minutes from here. I’m angry I had bring food to help people who did nothing wrong but go wo work in probably one of the worst jobs you can think of. And I volunteer in a local thrift store that raises over $500,000 per year for local poor people, veterans and drug addicts. So my energy is directed towards doing the most amount of good. It makes me angry to see roadblocks at every turn for hardworking Americans.

Visuallizing peace and love, meditating or saying thoughts and prayers are no more helpful than what I have done. Sorry, but for the pro life party they have sure made life miserable for a lot of hard working Americans whose only crime was being a pawn to King Donald and his whims. Why wasn’t this an issue for the last two years? No reason except a chance to be meaner than normal.

And one one more thing, the federal workforce has a lot of veterans as they get preferred hiring status. It’s never OK to deliberately make life harder for our veterans.

[Rogar]

I wasn't pointing fingers, Flowers. Just that it is as wrong for Trump to hate as it is to hate back. It doesn't take meditating or praying to see the wrong in something and wanting change without being hateful.

[Miss Cellaneous]

I wasn't pointing fingers, Flowers. Just that it is as wrong for Trump to hate as it is to hate back. It doesn't take meditating or praying to see the wrong in something and wanting change without being hateful.

I think this is a large part of my issue with Trump. There is so much hatred in this administration. Hatred of immigrants, refugees, NATO countries, China, all nations Trump seems to think are taking advantage of the US, Ms. Clinton, Democrats in general, women in general, anyone who says anything less than flattering about Trump, the media . . . the list just goes on and on.

And the president--the president!--spews this hatred daily on Twitter. He *encourages* his base to hate, to mock, to ridicule. This has affected the entire country.

There have been presidents I did not like before. I did not like some of their policies, some of the actions they took. But I could respect that they were doing what they thought was best for the country as a whole.

Trump seems to be out to improve his own situation, and then the situation of other very wealthy people. I do not think he has the interests of the average American or of the country as a whole in mind when he insults other countries, slaps random tariffs on multiple things, threatens to leave NATO, refuses to admit the facts of climate change, threatens the rights of voters and the rights of women.

I have never felt so threatened as a woman as I have the past two years. That alone is enough to make me want a change in government.

[Alan]

I have never felt so threatened as a woman as I have the past two years. That alone is enough to make me want a change in government.
This seems to be a recurring theme, what exactly makes women feel threatened under this administration?

[iris lilies]

This seems to be a recurring theme, what exactly makes women feel threatened under this administration?
Not to pile on, but I had the same thought and wish to know which woman freedoms have been reduced or even threatened to be reduced?

Thios is one of the areas where there doesnt seem to be a meeting of the minds of two sides because
I cannot grok what Miss C means. Despite pussy hat rhetoric and those optics (which were actually pretty funny, and effective as I look back on it) I do not understand the actual, verifiable, threats to women’s rights carried out by the federal government. Yes it is all great theater to protest in pink hats, but what is being protested?

Pretend I am an Aspie ( which I suppose I am, a tiny bit) and speak to me in specific terms about literal happenings.

[gimmethesimplelife]

This seems to be a recurring theme, what exactly makes women feel threatened under this administration?It's not just women that feel threatened under this Regime - as a gay man, I feel very much threatened, too. And though I'm a bit into Men's Rights these days, my take personally is that were I female, on a logical basis, i'd feel threatened by the Trump Regime, too. I can totally see this and understand this. Rob

[Alan]

It's not just women that feel threatened under this Regime - as a gay man, I feel very much threatened, too. And though I'm a bit into Men's Rights these days, my take personally is that were I female, on a logical basis, i'd feel threatened by the Trump Regime, too. I can totally see this and understand this. Rob
Well then can you verbalize exactly what makes you feel threatened?

[gimmethesimplelife]

Not to pile on, but I had the same thought and wish to know which woman freedoms have been reduced or even threatened to be reduced?

Thios is one of the areas where there doesnt seem to be a meeting of the minds of two sides because
I cannot grok what Miss C means. Despite pussy hat rhetoric and those optics (which were actually pretty funny, and effective as I look back on it) I do not understand the actual, verifiable, threats to women’s rights carried out by the federal government. Yes it is all great theater to protest in pink hats, but what is being protested?

Pretend I am an Aspie ( which I suppose I am, a tiny bit) and speak to me in specific terms about literal happenings.I believe - and ladies, if I am wrong, I won't hold it against you if you choose to illuminate me - that women are worried regarding an overturn of Roe vs. Wade. That and the extreme disrespect he has shown to women over time......I may be into Men's Rights but I also understand that when a political figure makes it as high up as Donald J Trump has - when such a figure is disrespectful towards one half of society, that one half of society will dish out consequences. In a way it's no different from how much of the 85006 feels about America. Treat a neighborhood poorly, and that neighborhood will dish out consequences. Same basic concept at least in my mind. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Well then can you verbalize exactly what makes you feel threatened?Disrespect for anyone who doesn't fit in with his narrative. The transgendered military issue. His over the top lack of filter and of verbal impulse control - his alienation of other countries formerly considered warm allies of the US (how this last fits in as I learned from Holocaust survivors and from my own Mother) - when a political figure goes over the top in any way shape or form repeatedly, trust nothing and have bags packed and cash saved to run and be prepped to run at a moment's notice. Having former allies hate the US does diminish running options (though this last one is certainly not gay specific).

Fear of an overturn of the legality of same sex marriage and fear of the wear and tear on myself fighting this would mean - and I would drop everything and dedicate my life to the fight against this should such happen - both for moral and ethical reasons, and also for a better shot at political asylum elsewhere. Yes, that's right, just seeing an image of Donald J Trump or even hearing him speak makes me wonder if my life is to soon be uprooted and if so, how can I work it so there's the best moral, ethical, and practical outcome? Your President, not mine, truly is that disliked and feared by a large swatch of America. Rob

[Teacher Terry]

Rob, nailed it with abortion and birth control freedom, transgender and gay issues/marriage.

[Miss Cellaneous]

This seems to be a recurring theme, what exactly makes women feel threatened under this administration?

The attacks on abortion rights and access to birth control.

Allowing an accused sexual predator on the Supreme Court without an adequate investigation of the charges.

Trump's statement that women who get abortions should be charged as criminals. He backtracked, but he said it.

The state of Ohio wanting the death penalty for women who have abortions. (Hey, what about the man who made the woman pregnant? Shouldn't he get the death penalty as well?)

The ruling that California "crisis centers" that are really anti-abortion propaganda centers do not have to clearly state that they are anti-abortion.

The reaction of parents about their son's safety when the victims of sexual assaults start to be believed instead of dismissed. "I'm telling my son to never be alone with a girl. That's the only way he'll be safe from false accusations." False accusations, although they are not common, have been around for forever. What's changed is that now there is a better chance of the victim being believed. But we should worry more about the men who are accused, and not the victims?

The ease with which men deny the truth of a woman who has been sexually assaulted. It's just instant denial, or "she was asking for it." Otherwise intelligent, sensible men just have a weird blind spot on this.

The defense's questioning of Taylor Swift during her trial. Just Google it.

Recent court rulings that allow sexual predators to get off basically scot free. https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2018/12/11/accused-rape-former-frat-president-gets-no-jail-time-after-plea-deal-da/?utm_term=.a98f5cad3193 https://wpde.com/news/local/no-jail-time-for-four-men-accused-of-raping-teens-in-myrtle-beach https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2018/08/19/a-jury-convicted-a-doctor-of-raping-a-patient-at-a-hospital-and-sentenced-him-to-probation/?utm_term=.2028d6fe7d51 Those are just the first three results that popped up when I Googled "rapist who didn't go to jail." There's lots more. These are convicted rapists. Who did not go to jail.

It's just an overall, pervasive atmosphere that women's rights are not important. That women are second class citizens. That men should control women's bodies. That government, both state and federal, is trying to limit our choices, limit our rights.

I'm not surprised that men haven't noticed any of this. None of this impinges on their day-to-day lives. But do not casually dismiss this just because you do not see it or understand it. Trust me, women are completely fed up with their concerns being dismissed by men because the men don't have the same concerns and therefore claim nothing is really wrong. If it's a reoccurring theme, if many, many women are saying this--go out on a limb. Believe the women.

[Alan]

Rob, nailed it with abortion and birth control freedom, transgender and gay issues/marriage.
No he didn't. There is no danger of Roe vs Wade being overturned, although there is hope that the rights of the unborn may be taken seriously at some point and that is not specific to this administration. There is no danger of women losing birth control although there is some question of whether or not society owes every woman free birth control and that pre-dates this administration as well. Gay marriage is safe and doesn't seem to be on anyone's political radar. Transgender military issues do persist but I think that is a nuanced discussion point that everyone prefers to see in a straightforward way as if everyone has a right to a specific job or career path at public expense.

I'm interested in hearing real reason to feel threatened.

[jp1]

I'm interested in hearing real reason to feel threatened.

No you're not.

[goldensmom]

Addressing only the title of this thread. 1. Did Trump cave? Depends on perspective, if you like him or not. If you hate Trump then he caved, Pelosi scored a victory and Schumer did a dance. If you like Trump then he showed compassion on the federal employees and reopened the government, he forfeited the battle but has not surrendered the war. 2. Is he weakened? Again depends on perspective. If you do not like Trump then of course he is weakened because he gave in. If you like Trump then showing compassion toward federal employees is a strength and what is seen as caving is actually a strategic move. We shall see.

[Teacher Terry]

Alan, you may not care about the rights I mentioned but many people do. Although I am generally not in favor of late term abortions there are instances where a baby will die after birth and suffer tremendously because of it’s disease. A baby born with severe brittle bone disease breaks every bone in its body being born and dies shortly after. The unborn don’t have rights until they are born. They cannot live outside the body and the woman should make decisions about her body.

[Alan]

Alan, you may not care about the rights I mentioned but many people do. Where would you get an idea like that? We may disagree about the nature of rights and what is a right or what is not but it seems rather condescending to suggest a disagreement equals not caring, don't you think?

[JaneV2.0]

He's weakened by his plummeting poll showing, which is probably what turned the tide--that and the growing rebellion among TSA and air traffic controllers. We were this close to a shutdown of our airspace. Trump has never been known for his compassion, whether for disabled reporters, asylum seekers, or anyone else. His tone-deaf musings on government employees and their creditors was as thoughtful (and unintentionally hilarious) as it gets. Lately, he has been showing concern about apocryphal sex trafficking victims with painter's tape over their mouths--over, and over, and over, like it's a favorite fantasy of his.

[Miss Cellaneous]

No he didn't. There is no danger of Roe vs Wade being overturned, although there is hope that the rights of the unborn may be taken seriously at some point and that is not specific to this administration. There is no danger of women losing birth control although there is some question of whether or not society owes every woman free birth control and that pre-dates this administration as well. Gay marriage is safe and doesn't seem to be on anyone's political radar. Transgender military issues do persist but I think that is a nuanced discussion point that everyone prefers to see in a straightforward way as if everyone has a right to a specific job or career path at public expense.

I'm interested in hearing real reason to feel threatened.

You have made many statements here. Many people would disagree with all of them, including me. This is exactly the type of dismissal of women and their concerns that I was talking about. You make a blanket statement and back it up with nothing.

[bae]

I'm not surprised that men haven't noticed any of this.

I think a fair number of men have noticed this, especially in the younger generations.

[Teacher Terry]

Sorry Alan, not trying to attack but you dismissed everything I said.

[Alan]

You have made many statements here. Many people would disagree with all of them, including me. This is exactly the type of dismissal of women and their concerns that I was talking about.
It was actually an attempt to counter broad statements by Rob and Terry, definitely not gender specific and I would not assume that all women agree with you either. Since when does disagreement equal dismissal?

[jp1]

https://rewire.news/article/2019/01/28/the-trump-administration-is-trying-to-make-it-easier-for-doctors-to-deny-care-to-lgbtq-people/

Within months of Donald Trump’s inauguration, the HHS had removed the “gender identity” language from its website and indicated an intent to stop enforcing gender identity discrimination complaints. By tasking its civil rights office with enforcement of this rule, HHS effectively says enshrining the right to refuse care is a civil rights matter—for the person denying the care, not the vulnerable patient.

https://www.businessinsider.com/study-military-deployment-birth-control-2018-12

A startling new survey found that 26% of active-duty women are unable to access birth control while deployed.

[Teacher Terry]

All women do not agree with us. There are religious fanatics that are against abortion and BC no matter the circumstances.

[bae]

https://www.gunsamerica.com/digest/atf-genderqueer-gun-purchasers/

[gimmethesimplelife]

The attacks on abortion rights and access to birth control.

Allowing an accused sexual predator on the Supreme Court without an adequate investigation of the charges.

Trump's statement that women who get abortions should be charged as criminals. He backtracked, but he said it.

The state of Ohio wanting the death penalty for women who have abortions. (Hey, what about the man who made the woman pregnant? Shouldn't he get the death penalty as well?)

The ruling that California "crisis centers" that are really anti-abortion propaganda centers do not have to clearly state that they are anti-abortion.

The reaction of parents about their son's safety when the victims of sexual assaults start to be believed instead of dismissed. "I'm telling my son to never be alone with a girl. That's the only way he'll be safe from false accusations." False accusations, although they are not common, have been around for forever. What's changed is that now there is a better chance of the victim being believed. But we should worry more about the men who are accused, and not the victims?

The ease with which men deny the truth of a woman who has been sexually assaulted. It's just instant denial, or "she was asking for it." Otherwise intelligent, sensible men just have a weird blind spot on this.

The defense's questioning of Taylor Swift during her trial. Just Google it.

Recent court rulings that allow sexual predators to get off basically scot free. https://www.washingtonpost.com/education/2018/12/11/accused-rape-former-frat-president-gets-no-jail-time-after-plea-deal-da/?utm_term=.a98f5cad3193 https://wpde.com/news/local/no-jail-time-for-four-men-accused-of-raping-teens-in-myrtle-beach https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/true-crime/wp/2018/08/19/a-jury-convicted-a-doctor-of-raping-a-patient-at-a-hospital-and-sentenced-him-to-probation/?utm_term=.2028d6fe7d51 Those are just the first three results that popped up when I Googled "rapist who didn't go to jail." There's lots more. These are convicted rapists. Who did not go to jail.

It's just an overall, pervasive atmosphere that women's rights are not important. That women are second class citizens. That men should control women's bodies. That government, both state and federal, is trying to limit our choices, limit our rights.

I'm not surprised that men haven't noticed any of this. None of this impinges on their day-to-day lives. But do not casually dismiss this just because you do not see it or understand it. Trust me, women are completely fed up with their concerns being dismissed by men because the men don't have the same concerns and therefore claim nothing is really wrong. If it's a reoccurring theme, if many, many women are saying this--go out on a limb. Believe the women.For women everywhere, all across this country, I feel the need to apologize for Donald J Trump, given that I am male also. I had no idea that Trump stated that women who have abortions should be charged as criminals. Unreal. Just nightmarishly unreal. Ladies, for what it's worth, I for one am sorry. He has no excuse and no call to make such a statement. Even it if it is religiously based (something I have a hard time seeing in this case), supposedly we enjoy freedom of religion in the US? So I was told in school? So why this statement, and why does Senor Trump not possess the street smarts to zip his lip and internally filter out such statements before they ever take place?

Once again, for what it's worth, ladies, I'm sorry this statement ever took place - and this means something coming from me, given my Men's Rights Activism. Trump went too damned far here and I have no problem seeing it and expressing it. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

You have made many statements here. Many people would disagree with all of them, including me. This is exactly the type of dismissal of women and their concerns that I was talking about. You make a blanket statement and back it up with nothing.Miss Cellaneous, for what it's worth (and I love the creativity of your screen name, btw), even as a Men's Rights Activist I see where you are coming from and I agree with you. I can see the dismissal of women you refer to in your post (and also of gay men in Alan's post). For what it's worth, I agree with you. Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Sorry Alan, not trying to attack but you dismissed everything I said.And I agree. Not to pile up on Alan - but I can clearly see the dismissal you refer to, TT. Rob

[Alan]

All women do not agree with us. There are religious fanatics that are against abortion and BC no matter the circumstances.So you're dismissing those who disagree with you as religious fanatics?

[gimmethesimplelife]

I think a fair number of men have noticed this, especially in the younger generations.Even though I on occasion attend Men's Rights meetings and support this cause (though not quite as much as certain other causes I have posted about ad infinitum here over the years and will spare you'all from posting about now) I have noticed this. And a few other men I know of involved in Men's Rights - not real hard core cases anyway - have noticed it, too. This to me says something quite strong regarding Trump and how he is coming across towards women and their causes/concerns. Rob

[iris lilies]

All women do not agree with us. There are religious fanatics that are against abortion and BC no matter the circumstances.
I am not a religious fanatic and I do not agree with what I think you mean, but given your lack of specifity in your espressions, it is difficult to know what you mean. If you are speaking only of abortion rights, it would seem to me that the well publicized change by the New York State legislature last week would give ya’ll some cheer. That is actual, concrete law, not whiffs of threat.

And of course it isnt action at the federal level, but neither are the majority of Miss C’s examples.

[Miss Cellaneous]

It was actually an attempt to counter broad statements by Rob and Terry, definitely not gender specific and I would not assume that all women agree with you either. Since when does disagreement equal dismissal?

When it is delivered the way you delivered it--a complete denial of our concerns, with absolutely no proof.

To take just one: There is no danger of Roe vs Wade being overturned.

1. I did not state that Roe vs Wade would be overturned, but that abortion rights are being attacked. Roe vs Wade does not have to be overturned to make getting a safe abortion nearly impossible for women. But points for deflecting the argument.

2.Trump is filling federal courts with more and more conservative judges, who generally are anti-abortion. He has placed two conservative judges on the Supreme Court, both of whom slant anti-abortion, although Gorsuch slightly less than Kavanaugh.

3. State after state, laws are being passed that restrict access to abortion.

You may not have meant your reply this way, but it came across as a paternalistic, condescending, pat on the head; a complete dismissal of the valid concerns of many women in the US.

[gimmethesimplelife]

No you're not.Thank You, jp1. My take is that I've posted very much both real and legitimate reasons to feel threatened. It would appear as if others on this board are somewhat on the same wavelength and this time get where I am coming from. I agree that Alan is not interested in hearing real reason(s) for feeling threatened by this Administration - I just see dismissal and discounting going on. (and not the good kind of discounting that takes place at retailers on Thanksgiving and Black Friday LOL). Rob

[Alan]

When it is delivered the way you delivered it--a complete denial of our concerns, with absolutely no proof.

To take just one: There is no danger of Roe vs Wade being overturned.

1. I did not state that Roe vs Wade would be overturned, but that abortion rights are being attacked. Roe vs Wade does not have to be overturned to make getting a safe abortion nearly impossible for women. But points for deflecting the argument.

2.Trump is filling federal courts with more and more conservative judges, who generally are anti-abortion. He has placed two conservative judges on the Supreme Court, both of whom slant anti-abortion, although Gorsuch slightly less than Kavanaugh.

3. State after state, laws are being passed that restrict access to abortion.

You may not have meant your reply this way, but it came across as a paternalistic, condescending, pat on the head; a complete dismissal of the valid concerns of many women in the US.
I was responding to Rob's statement:


I believe - and ladies, if I am wrong, I won't hold it against you if you choose to illuminate me - that women are worried regarding an overturn of Roe vs. Wade.
Please be aware that's not a dismissal of your concerns, just a statement of fact.

[iris lilies]

When it is delivered the way you delivered it--a complete denial of our concerns, with absolutely no proof.

To take just one: There is no danger of Roe vs Wade being overturned.

1. I did not state that Roe vs Wade would be overturned, but that abortion rights are being attacked. Roe vs Wade does not have to be overturned to make getting a safe abortion nearly impossible for women. But points for deflecting the argument.

2.Trump is filling federal courts with more and more conservative judges, who generally are anti-abortion. He has placed two conservative judges on the Supreme Court, both of whom slant anti-abortion, although Gorsuch slightly less than Kavanaugh.

3. State after state, laws are being passed that restrict access to abortion.

You may not have meant your reply this way, but it came across as a paternalistic, condescending, pat on the head; a complete dismissal of the valid concerns of many women in the US.

please speak to the recent New York State abortion legislation.

[gimmethesimplelife]

please speak to the recent New York State abortion legislation.Please speak to the recent legislation in Alabama dating to November 2018 I believe attempting to restrict women's access to abortions. Checkmate! Rob

[iris lilies]

Please speak to the recent legislation in Alabama dating to November 2018 I believe attempting to restrict women's access to abortions. Checkmate! Rob
Do you mean the one that was ruled unconstituional by a FEDERAL court? Like, it isnt in effect? Like, it doesnt have power over women’s bodies? Is that the one you mean?

since we are ultimately talking about federal action, that is a good example. Thank you for playing.

[gimmethesimplelife]

He's weakened by his plummeting poll showing, which is probably what turned the tide--that and the growing rebellion among TSA and air traffic controllers. We were this close to a shutdown of our airspace. Trump has never been known for his compassion, whether for disabled reporters, asylum seekers, or anyone else. His tone-deaf musings on government employees and their creditors was as thoughtful (and unintentionally hilarious) as it gets. Lately, he has been showing concern about apocryphal sex trafficking victims with painter's tape over their mouths--over, and over, and over, like it's a favorite fantasy of his.That bit about aviation safety? Truly scared and continues to scare me (current tense due to the seeming inevitability of another shutdown come 2/15). As I've stated before, I live very close to the Phoenix Airport - not the busiest but one of the busier US airports - and many of my neighbors work at the airport in some capacity. So I'm more in tuned with aviation issues than you might think. And all my airport working neighbors I spoke to? All were and still are concerned about a preventable aviation disaster taking place due to Trump and his inablity to see the big picture and his inablity to understand that his decisions cause human collateral damage and in this case, a slight risk of mass loss of life for no real reason (TSA agents spread too thin to prevent contraband from getting on to a plane and air traffic controllers spread too thin also, one mistake in this area can quickly mean large losses of life). Rob

[gimmethesimplelife]

Do you mean the one that was ruled unconstituional by a FEDERAL court? Like, it isnt in effect? Like, it doesnt have power over women’s bodies? Is that the one you mean?

since we are ultimately talking about federal action, that is a good example. Thank you for playing.I will google after lunch service and after the major breakdown of the event is done and see if I am indeed not up to speed on the Alabama decision. I posted of the last I knew and I've been very busy lately - it's just about peak season here for Conventions. So it could be that I'm not up to speed on this one decision and if so, I will educate myself once things slow down today. Fair enough, IL. Rob

[iris lilies]

I will google after lunch service and after the major breakdown of the event is done and see if I am indeed not up to speed on the Alabama decision. I posted of the last I knew and I've been very busy lately - it's just about peak season here for Conventions. So it could be that I'm not up to speed on this one decision and if so, I will educate myself once things slow down today. Fair enough, IL. Rob

It is my general impression that state legislatures are constantly working on laws to chip away at abortion rights laid out in Roe V Wade. They do that because their constituency wants that. The power for abortion right lays in state legislature (see recent NewYork State law) not at the Federal level. Roe V Wade recognized the state’s right to enact legislation on this topic, and it limited what states can do.

Courts appropriately say “naw, no deal buddy” to some of these state laws. Just because this Alabama action took place in 2018 yoiu are ramping up the Trump fear factor, but this stuff has been going on since 1973. Congrats for falling for fear mongering.

I stopped giving to Planned Parenthood because I was so annoyed that they kept using George Bush as their boygeyman in their phone solitication. It was unsophisticated fund raising on their part and I felt like they were treating me as a half wit. Truly, if they wanted to put forth a bogeyman I might have recognized, they could have named any number of Missouri legislators, but their one size fits all was just easy for them.

[jp1]

People will keep saying that Roe v Wade isn't going to fall and therefore none of these state attempts matter. Until Roe falls. If Individual 1 gets one more supreme court justice approved it won't just be a distant hypothetical anymore.

[LDAHL]

Feelings and emotion have been part of politics from pretty much the dawn of civilization. I doubt you could even run a viable democracy on mere factuality. But I think that right now the feeling/factuality mix is running a bit rich. The Kavanaugh confirmation seemed to me to be more about emotional reactions to a sort of narrative than any particular facts of the accusations against one particular man. The President seems only to deal in facts when he contradicts himself.

We indict people based on emotionally charged symbols, and substitute indictment for argument. Show some people a picture of a kid in a red hat, and thatÂ’s all they need to know. Likewise a kneeling football player. Social media only accelerates the process of transmitting feelings broadly.

I donÂ’t know at what point not believing someoneÂ’s feelings have a strong basis in fact becomes dismissal. IÂ’m sure it does if youÂ’re cavalier enough about it. But we live in a culture with such a swirl of contradictory feelings and beliefs itÂ’s probably impossible to respect them all. I might feel abortion to be a horrific evil. You might consider it to be a sacred right.
That difference may never be resolved at a rational level. ThatÂ’s why I think itÂ’s foolish to treat politics as a substitute for religion, with eternal verities.

[jp1]

It's not a surprise that opinions about Kavanaugh are based on emotion not facts. The republicans were afraid to let the facts be brought to light. And then they wonder why their support among women have crashed and burned so spectacularly.

[Williamsmith]

For my money, the root cause of all this angst and anger hangs directly around the neck of Hillary Clinton as a result of her “for the ages” choke in the last election. Had she won, you all would be some of the cheeriest guys and gals this side of the International Date Line. Trump has merely given you a convenient target upon which to heap your grieving bodies upon with wailing and gnashing of teeth worthy of an Academy Award. 2020 is coming, and you all should be busy planning how you will make it to 2024 without causing yourselves an aneurysm or stroke. Your lives can’t possibly be as full of speculative media bull crap as is reflected here.

I am celebrating a possible end to the War in Afghanistan after seventeen years, speaking of caves.

[LDAHL]

It's not a surprise that opinions about Kavanaugh are based on emotion not facts. The republicans were afraid to let the facts be brought to light. And then they wonder why their support among women have crashed and burned so spectacularly.

Yes. They should never have sat on that letter from the accuser for so long, producing it only when expedient. If they hadn’t there would have been more time to pore over high school yearbooks.

[jp1]

Yes, they should have allowed a full FBI investigation once the accusations came to light. Since they didn't we'll never know the truth beyond the fact that he has committed perjury multiple times and made it abundantly clear that he has no interest in being an impartial jurist.

[jp1]

For my money, the root cause of all this angst and anger hangs directly around the neck of Hillary Clinton as a result of her “for the ages” choke in the last election. Had she won, you all would be some of the cheeriest guys and gals this side of the International Date Line.


Not really. The choice last time around was between two nixon republicans. One for his policies. One for his criminality.

[iris lilies]

Feelings and emotion have been part of politics from pretty much the dawn of civilization. I doubt you could even run a viable democracy on mere factuality. But I think that right now the feeling/factuality mix is running a bit rich. The Kavanaugh confirmation seemed to me to be more about emotional reactions to a sort of narrative than any particular facts of the accusations against one particular man. The President seems only to deal in facts when he contradicts himself.

We indict people based on emotionally charged symbols, and substitute indictment for argument. Show some people a picture of a kid in a red hat, and thatÂ’s all they need to know. Likewise a kneeling football player. Social media only accelerates the process of transmitting feelings broadly.

I donÂ’t know at what point not believing someoneÂ’s feelings have a strong basis in fact becomes dismissal. IÂ’m sure it does if youÂ’re cavalier enough about it. But we live in a culture with such a swirl of contradictory feelings and beliefs itÂ’s probably impossible to respect them all. I might feel abortion to be a horrific evil. You might consider it to be a sacred right.
That difference may never be resolved at a rational level. ThatÂ’s why I think itÂ’s foolish to treat politics as a substitute for religion, with eternal verities.

Distilled, this means feelings are not facts!!!? who knew!!!

That said, I am not entirely confident that Roe V Wade would not be overturned or, more likely, reconsidered with slight modifications. I cannot predict the future. But given my extensive legal background (hahahaha! ) my cursory look at how often the Supremes take up an old case with no new information shows: hardly ever. Those of you all atwitter with fear, check that out.

I agree that neonatal technological advances create a new age of viability for a fetus, so that might be reason to re-hear a case.

Abortion is a thorny issue and I do not respect those who are unable to understand both sides of it. The woman and the state have intetest in this issue, and it us naive to think rither one is without interest.

[LDAHL]

Yes, they should have allowed a full FBI investigation once the accusations came to light. Since they didn't we'll never know the truth beyond the fact that he has committed perjury multiple times and made it abundantly clear that he has no interest in being an impartial jurist.

The prior half dozen being insufficient.

[jp1]

What? The half dozen people they actually were allowed to interview? What does that have to do with all the relevant people that didnt get interviewed? If the republicans ever hope to be more than the party of old and uneducated white men they need to figure out how to at least look like they actually care about anyone else. The sham kavanaugh investigation may have gotten them a supreme court seat but judging from the exit polls a couple months ago there are an awful lot of women who arent buying the whole ‘he was fully vetted’ storyline.

[Miss Cellaneous]

Yes, they should have allowed a full FBI investigation once the accusations came to light. Since they didn't we'll never know the truth beyond the fact that he has committed perjury multiple times and made it abundantly clear that he has no interest in being an impartial jurist.

I agree. Whatever that was that was televised, it was not an investigation. And now the waters have been so muddied that I'm not sure a real investigation is possible.

I will say that his ranting during the second half of that made me question his suitability for the SC, based on his personality alone. But we are stuck with him.

[Miss Cellaneous]

There are many states that have abortion laws on the books that are currently not enforced, due to Roe vs Wade. However, if Roe vs Wade is ever overturned, those laws will come into force.

So while there are some who say Roe vs Wade will not be overturned, there are a lot of people who are planning for that.

[Teacher Terry]

So looked up the NY law and it appears it has to be a devastating reason to get a abortion after 24 weeks. Why carry a baby to term that dies at birth?

[iris lilies]

So looked up the NY law and it appears it has to be a devastating reason to get a abortion after 24 weeks. Why carry a baby to term that dies at birth?
I would actually like someone to start a new thread about this New York law which is getting a lot of attention from either side of the abortion issue.


A couple days ago Rush Limbaugh was screeching for an entire hour about it. On the same day, Cuomo was beating his chest in noisy braggadocio about it. There is so much noise it is hard for me to understand what is different today, on January 29, 2019, that was not in effect in the state of New York on December 29, 2019.

But people share our heated up about it

[Teacher Terry]

I never understood why people are against things that they wouldn’t choose. No one is forcing someone to live a certain way. Whatever happened to live and let live?

[ToomuchStuff]

I would actually like someone to start a new thread about this New York law which is getting a lot of attention from either side of the abortion issue.


A couple days ago Rush Limbaugh was screeching for an entire hour about it. On the same day, Cuomo was beating his chest in noisy braggadocio about it. There is so much noise it is hard for me to understand what is different today, on January 29, 2019, that was not in effect in the state of New York on December 29, 2019.

But people share our heated up about it

So does this thread need to be locked until December of 2019, or do you have a time machine?

[LDAHL]

Whatever happened to live and let live?

Or live and let die, as the case may be?

[Williamsmith]

I do consider our approach to abortion as barbaric given the viable options. On one hand we have women desperately trying to rid themselves of the growing life that is within and government is funding that effort and on the other hand we have women desperately trying to be a mother but there is no assistance for that. I am repulsed by the act of abortion but I am also repulsed by a society that makes women feel they can’t financially, emotionally or otherwise provide for a new life. I trust women and doctors to make these hard decisions thoughtfully rather than believing the evil propaganda that seems to accompany efforts to change our status quo.